This topic is locked from further discussion.

#1 Posted by iAmJohn (6120 posts) -
#2 Posted by LordAndrew (14426 posts) -
Outlaw Golf divided by Darkened Skye equals...?
#3 Posted by iAmJohn (6120 posts) -

@LordAndrew said:

Outlaw Golf divided by Darkened Skye equals...?

Two really shitty games for the price of one, of course!

#4 Posted by onan (1286 posts) -

I've always wondered about the status of such collections myself. It's not like you could list them as releases for the individual titles, because then you'd have 2x or more releases existing in the system then you should.

Also, then you'd have to delete entries such as Super Mario All Stars and Super Mario All Stars & Super Mario World. (That was a mouthful.) Additionally, all of those classic collections, of which there are bound to be more of, would have to go, like Capcom Puzzle World or Intellivision Lives!. You'd also have to get rid of most pack in games to systems, from Super Mario Bros/Duck Hunt to every single disc bundled with an Xbox 360 in the last 5 years.

I'd think for situations like this where it's a bundled product with a unique UPC code and unique box art, it should stay, especially since I just noticed while writing this sentence that there's a "compilation" genre now on Giantbomb and it should probably be added to that.

#5 Posted by Dagbiker (6976 posts) -

@onan said:

I've always wondered about the status of such collections myself. It's not like you could list them as releases for the individual titles, because then you'd have 2x or more releases existing in the system then you should.

Also, then you'd have to delete entries such as Super Mario All Stars and Super Mario All Stars & Super Mario World. (That was a mouthful.) Additionally, all of those classic collections, of which there are bound to be more of, would have to go, like Capcom Puzzle World or Intellivision Lives!. You'd also have to get rid of most pack in games to systems, from Super Mario Bros/Duck Hunt to every single disc bundled with an Xbox 360 in the last 5 years.

I'd think for situations like this where it's a bundled product with a unique UPC code and unique box art, it should stay, especially since I just noticed while writing this sentence that there's a "compilation" genre now on Giantbomb and it should probably be added to that.

The rule is if the game is just a repackaging of a game, with nothing added then it doesnt belong on the wiki.

#6 Edited by onan (1286 posts) -

@Dagbiker said:

@onan said:

I've always wondered about the status of such collections myself. It's not like you could list them as releases for the individual titles, because then you'd have 2x or more releases existing in the system then you should.

Also, then you'd have to delete entries such as Super Mario All Stars and Super Mario All Stars & Super Mario World. (That was a mouthful.) Additionally, all of those classic collections, of which there are bound to be more of, would have to go, like Capcom Puzzle World or Intellivision Lives!. You'd also have to get rid of most pack in games to systems, from Super Mario Bros/Duck Hunt to every single disc bundled with an Xbox 360 in the last 5 years.

I'd think for situations like this where it's a bundled product with a unique UPC code and unique box art, it should stay, especially since I just noticed while writing this sentence that there's a "compilation" genre now on Giantbomb and it should probably be added to that.

The rule is if the game is just a repackaging of a game, with nothing added then it doesnt belong on the wiki.

Hm, so, specifically that means that a bundle release like JSRF/Sega GT 2002 would count because unlike some other compilations which include each of the original discs in the case along with the original manuals, on that release the games are merged onto one disc. At the very least a menu needed to be created to contain the two. In that case, JSRF/Sega GT 2002 should probably have its own page.

I can't speak to this release, but I do own Outlaw Golf/SeaBlade, which was also published by Simon & Schuster Interactive and printed in a similar style, and that contains the two separate, original game discs (I just checked). That's also probably the case here for this Outlaw Golf/Darkened Skye Gamecube release. If that's the policy, then it should be deleted.

#7 Posted by iAmJohn (6120 posts) -

@onan said:

@Dagbiker said:

@onan said:

I've always wondered about the status of such collections myself. It's not like you could list them as releases for the individual titles, because then you'd have 2x or more releases existing in the system then you should.

Also, then you'd have to delete entries such as Super Mario All Stars and Super Mario All Stars & Super Mario World. (That was a mouthful.) Additionally, all of those classic collections, of which there are bound to be more of, would have to go, like Capcom Puzzle World or Intellivision Lives!. You'd also have to get rid of most pack in games to systems, from Super Mario Bros/Duck Hunt to every single disc bundled with an Xbox 360 in the last 5 years.

I'd think for situations like this where it's a bundled product with a unique UPC code and unique box art, it should stay, especially since I just noticed while writing this sentence that there's a "compilation" genre now on Giantbomb and it should probably be added to that.

The rule is if the game is just a repackaging of a game, with nothing added then it doesnt belong on the wiki.

Hm, so, specifically that means that a bundle release like JSRF/Sega GT 2002 would count because unlike some other compilations which include each of the original discs in the case along with the original manuals, on that release the games are merged onto one disc. At the very least a menu needed to be created to contain the two. In that case, JSRF/Sega GT 2002 should probably have its own page.

I can't speak to this release, but I do own Outlaw Golf/SeaBlade, which was also published by Simon & Schuster Interactive and printed in a similar style, and that contains the two separate, original game discs (I just checked). That's also probably the case here for this Outlaw Golf/Darkened Skye Gamecube release. If that's the policy, then it should be deleted.

Funny that you brought it up because I was just thinking about it a couple hours ago: I don't think JSRF/Sega GT 2002 would count because they're both games that had originally been released for the Xbox separately. Compilations are allowed if the games have not been released on the platform before, or if the compilation is the only way you can buy those games at retail; that way we can allow things like Super Mario All Stars, Capcom Puzzle World and Sonic Jam, as well as compilations like Qubed or other XBLA compilation discs.

Basically, to put it a simpler way, the rule according to Jeff is that an easy way to know if a compilation should get a page or not is to do one simple test: If I knew nothing about this product, would I be looking it up to see what it is and what games are contained within? Bundle packs like the Outlaw Golf/Seablade one that I totally forgot existed until you mentioned it or the two I got in the OP, more often than not, fail that test.

#8 Edited by StarFoxA (5157 posts) -

@iAmJohn: No, that's not the rule. If it's on a single cartridge/disk/what-have-you, then it can have its own page. See: Super Mario Bros. / Duck Hunt.

#9 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -
@StarFoxA said:

@iAmJohn: No, that's not the rule. If it's on a single cartridge/disk/what-have-you, then it can have its own page. See: Super Mario Bros. / Duck Hunt.

Ahhh memories....
#10 Edited by iAmJohn (6120 posts) -

@StarFoxA said:

@iAmJohn: No, that's not the rule. If it's on a single cartridge/disk/what-have-you, then it can have its own page. See: Super Mario Bros. / Duck Hunt.

Well that's fucking stupid. What's the point of having something like that in the wiki? It's just two previously released retail games in one.

I better stop before I go off into another vicious rant about how fucking illogical and unexplained some of these wiki rules are.

#11 Posted by onan (1286 posts) -

@iAmJohn said:

Funny that you brought it up because I was just thinking about it a couple hours ago: I don't think JSRF/Sega GT 2002 would count because they're both games that had originally been released for the Xbox separately. Compilations are allowed if the games have not been released on the platform before, or if the compilation is the only way you can buy those games at retail; that way we can allow things like Super Mario All Stars, Capcom Puzzle World and Sonic Jam, as well as compilations like Qubed or other XBLA compilation discs.

Basically, to put it a simpler way, the rule according to Jeff is that an easy way to know if a compilation should get a page or not is to do one simple test: If I knew nothing about this product, would I be looking it up to see what it is and what games are contained within? Bundle packs like the Outlaw Golf/Seablade one that I totally forgot existed until you mentioned it or the two I got in the OP, more often than not, fail that test.

When was that said? It sounds like it may have been said before the introduction of "compilation" to the genre list, because I don't recall ever seeing it as an option before just now. It also seems like JSRF/SegaGT would be a more notable exception, considering the original print run of JSRF was incredibly small (NPD reported they only sold 89,808 copies), while the bundled edition that came with new xboxes was the one that most people encountered.

Additionally, as you said, you would never have known about that particular Outlaw Golf/SeaBlade retail product had I not just mentioned it, so people not specifically looking for it would never even know it existed without drilling down. It also inflates the number of releases in the database x times per compilation. Looking toward the future, these compilations will become more common than less common, and Jeff's ruling already shoots PC compilations in the foot since it's an ever-evolving platform that never needs to be out of date. For a game like Baldur's Gate, according to amazon it exists on at least 6 compilations. Factoring in expansions and sequels and the entries for those same compilations on their release lists, that adds up to about about 24 redundant releases added to the database for one game. That's assuming a 100% level of completeness and accuracy. It could easily swing the other way and there would be almost no acknowledgement of a game's existence in a re-released form, such as is the case with Pong that's only listed as being in 1 release since its introduction in 1972.

I'm just throwing this out there, I don't expect anything to be done about it. It's more of an item on a wishlist of things that should probably be changed if they're planning on upgrading the wiki at some point in the future (I think Dave has expressed an interest in it.) It's probably only #2 on my wishlist to the #1 of putting some secondary identifying information for wiki entries when they are returned for drop-down list results, so you don't end up with 8 options for "Jack" when you type it into the search field next to tiny, indistinguishable thumbnails. Maybe, in parenthesis next to the results, the game of origin for characters, and year of release for games.

Anyway, compilations should probably be their own thing, included on the left side alongside add-ons and achievements, and not counted as discrete "games" based on a granular sorting system. Functionally, they would be identical to the lists individual users get to generate, however publicly editable. but again, that's going completely off topic.

/tangent

#12 Posted by StarFoxA (5157 posts) -

Guys, compilations have been discussed extensively. They're staying the way they are.

#13 Posted by onan (1286 posts) -

Back on topic:

It's not definitive or incredibly clear, but short of someone chiming in that actually owns the compilation product, based on this ebay link it seems like my assumption of the way S&S handles re-release bundles on consoles was correct. Since it's two separate games in one box on the original discs, it should be deleted (even though it has a great weird little composite box art that I've always been really fond of for some reason).

Deer Avenger: Open Season should also probably get deleted. At first glance I assumed it's another sequel on the list of Deer Avenger games and that should be reason enough to get rid of it and list it in the releases, even if it is all on one disc or not. That "single disc" distinction on PC is kind of meaningless because they're just exe files either way.

#14 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

@iAmJohn said:

@StarFoxA said:

@iAmJohn: No, that's not the rule. If it's on a single cartridge/disk/what-have-you, then it can have its own page. See: Super Mario Bros. / Duck Hunt.

Well that's fucking stupid. What's the point of having something like that in the wiki? It's just two previously released retail games in one.

I better stop before I go off into another vicious rant about how fucking illogical and unexplained some of these wiki rules are.

I am going to get an ulcer trying to understand the decisions that have been made in regards to how the wiki is handled.

#15 Posted by LordAndrew (14426 posts) -
Does anyone know which thread has Jeff telling us we're handling compilations wrong and gave us new rules for what qualifies? It would likely settle this issue, but I can't find it. Too much search result noise.
#16 Posted by StarFoxA (5157 posts) -
@LordAndrew Wasn't there a thread that Marino made in an attempt to clear up all confusion?
#17 Posted by LordAndrew (14426 posts) -
@StarFoxA: Hell if I know. I found threads about compilation rules, but I don't know where they fit in chronologically.
#18 Posted by MooseyMcMan (11009 posts) -

Wait, there are games called "Deer Avenger"?

Moderator
#19 Posted by Hailinel (24783 posts) -

@StarFoxA said:

@LordAndrew Wasn't there a thread that Marino made in an attempt to clear up all confusion?

I believe it came about in the thread in which a number of users attempted to unilaterally declare war on all compilations on the site until Jeff stepped in.

#20 Posted by Marino (4696 posts) -

After looking into it, this compilation is simply two discs in a box, so I have deleted it.

If it were two games on one disc, with some sort of new interface, special features, and whatnot, it would qualify for a page.

Staff