What should be in Retro's next DKC?

There was very little speculation after DKCR because of vocal folk who proclaimed that Retro was probably busy developing rocket ships to go to the moon. As a result when DKCTF was announced and Dixie returned it was a surprise to everyone, not least of which the people theorizing Retro would be on the moon by 2015. This time let's speculate sensibly! They did 3 Metroid Primes, the DKCR did better than all 3 Metroid Primes, it probably stands to reason they'll do a 3rd Donkey Kong Country assuming the Wii U doesn't die. Not the safest of assumptions of course but whatever, Nintendo Consoles have always managed to survive exclusively on exclusives made by Nintendo in the past, maybe it'll go okay. Worse case it'll be on Xbox One or PlayStation 4 maybe?

Anyway, for the 3rd Retro DKC (which I will call Baja Blast. Time was my extrapolated trilogy was "DKC Returns", "DKC Forever" and "DKC and Robin" but that no longer works) I think it's perfectly clear what needs to happen. Kremlings need to return. This is basically the only and best way at this point to continue down the path of bringing back more stuff from the past in a way that make the Nintendo Direct reveal solid and make the box art. Sure they can do other things like adding back more Animal Buddies (I'd say... Squitter, Enguarde, Rattly and Proper Ridable Squawks. Get rid of Rocket Barrels while they're at it, those stages are awful), putting Kiddy in as a 5th Kong and having Swanky do a quiz show (there's so much detail in the environments of the games it'd make perfect sense) but Kremlings are more important than any of that. They're the thing everyone's been asking of Retro's DKC games from the start, they'll fit into box art (which may not matter anymore in 2017, digital being what it is) and they'll be a selling point for a lot more folk than Kiddy.

They have to do that. It'd be crazy to go 3 whole games without bringing back the Kremlings. Right? Super nuts. It's kind of crazy they didn't this time honestly though Dixie Kong is great to have back and the Snomads work pretty well.

Outside of Kremlings they should probably continue the great things DKCTF did. Like Tropical Freeze make sure each world is novel, has a ton of variety and fits together well without having any two levels feeling too similar. Continue paying homage to original trilogy levels/archetypes, that's really cool in DKCTF, and make sure the Kremlings talk and leave ransom notes. They could talk and leave ransom notes in the original games. Also it'd be great if each bonus stage was custom made like in DKC2 and DKC3. Also stop denying DK Barrels after certain checkpoints. If there's a checkpoint there should be a DK Barrel. Also add a DK Coin to every level because the Puzzle Pieces are nice but there's too many of them to mean anything. Collecting a DK Coin was always special.

What do you think? Kremlings are a must, right? And an extra playable Kong, Swanky and Animal Buddies would be nice too yeah?

My guess is that tropical freeze will sell poorly because it's on the WiiU and there isn't a stupidly big userbase. Than I pray the gods retro gets ANYTHING NEW. New IP, new take on Zelda, new take on Mario, even new take on donkey kong, ANYTHING. But they won't because fucking Nintendo...

@pyrodactyl: It'll sell as well as any other Wii U game, if sales suffer it'll probably be brushed off. Plus it's the sort of game people are likely to buy when they do get a Wii U down the line if people still buy Wii U's in the coming years. I wouldn't worry about the odds of Baja Blast. If any Nintendo IP is going to shelved soon it's probably Pikmin sadly though Pikmin 3 was fantastic.

Why are people so insistent that Retro work on something else? They've made two Donkey Kong Country games. Two. And the reason that they made a second one was because the first one they made was a good game and sold well. If they still had ideas for another game and the willingness to do another, why scream like a rabid banshee when they make a second one as though some damnable offense were committed?

Hopefully they do something else. I don't have any interest in DK, but interest in what Retro does.

Kremlings and more animal buddies would be the two best things to add. Bringing back underwater stages would be cool too.

Edit: I just read that Tropical Freeze brought back underwater stages. In that case make more of them in the next game with the swordfish dude. That would be sweet.

@hailinel: Probably a combination of a bunch of factors.

One, Metroid was on the shelf for the entire N64 era. Retro brought it back into the limelight with the Prime games. However since then Other M has gone and fucked it up and it looks like Metroid is going back on the shelf as a result. People don't like that and are jealous that Rare's Donkey Kong franchise in being given Retro's revival treatment instead of Metroid currently.

Two, Rare's Donkey Kong Franchise was on the shelf more or less until Retro revived it through the Gamecube era. In the era where Metroid was having a renaissance Nintendo was trying to turn Donkey Kong Japanese with mixed results. EAD's Jungle Beat was an atrocious mess (the Other M of it's era. Decent gameplay, could've ruined franchise if it were successful due to contempt of Rare's legacy) and PAON's games weren't setting the world on fire either even though they did keep to the classic foes. However while it does make perfect sense as a franchise to revive some people don't see it that way since it wasn't having a hiatus through the Gamecube era, it was just in a rough place. Some people think that's the proper place for it then.

Three, some people don't think platformers are super cool anymore maybe? Not a good use of a talented team's time? I dunno, I didn't see anyone in the Rayman Legends forum saying "okay, now that Michel Ancel is done with Rayman Legends what's he going to do next? Here's an idea, how about something that's not a platformer? A new IP perhaps! Yes, wouldn't that be great!" People are probably more sad there might not be a third one and are quietly trying to not think about it since they made a second one despite weak sales of the first one, maybe they'll do that again.

Four I'm going to double back to two. DK has been out of the limelight since Rare's hand left it. Some folk have turned on it during this time oddly enough. Some of them in a post buyout haze of "they were never good! It's overrated" and other is a less direct "this isn't worth the development effort spent on it" sentiment. It's funny. Did people turn on Metroid while it was on hiatus?

Five Retro is Nintendo's hit squad. They revitalize suffering IPs. Some people think all of Nintendo's IP is suffering because most of it is. Some cry out for Star Fox though that isn't likely to come back ever. Some cry out for Zelda even though it doesn't really need it and is doing perfectly well for Nintendo as is. Some cry out for New IP because they've thought over which IP they'd rather have Retro revitalize and have decided "fuck all of them! I'd rather see the hit squad do something new."

Six to some degree people might not consider DKC worthy of a company called Retro. May have a very odd definition of where Retro gaming begins and ends. Golden ages. Metroid comes out of the NES era. Rare's Donkey Kong comes out of the late SNES early N64 era. This may be especially true for Metroid fans who might consider the N64 era to be something of a black sheep due to not having any Metroid. Make no mistake though, DKC is as Retro as it gets. All 3 games are 20-18 years old.

Seven maybe they just don't see the pattern. They made 3 Metroid Primes. How many Donkey Kong Countries you think they'll make?

Eight because other people are doing it. People are influenced by what other people do, part of it has got to be seeing other people aggressively make demands of Retro and saying "Yeah! They should make a new Ice Climbers!"

It's probably mostly number eight actually.

@hailinel: because retro has shown they're amazing at making new things and Nintendo has only ever announced one new "new" game for WiiU. A year and a half and 1 new thing is announced but probably won't come out for 8 months or more. This is pathetic, even for Nintendo. Retro has shown they could be making something that would blow our minds but fuck that, how about more 2D donkey kong?

This is an interview between Kotaku and Reggie from E3 2013:

Kotaku: Were you saying, did Retro choose to make the Donkey Kong Country game? Was it their decision?

Fils-Aime: I wasn’t in the room when they talked to Mr. Tanabe and Mr. Takahashi, but I just spent some time with Michael Kelbaugh, the president of that studio, and he talked about how they were excited to go right from finishing up Donkey Kong Country Returns into this next project.

Link

So, Retro chose to make another Donkey Kong game. They had more ideas for the series and since it did well, Nintendo okay'd it. I don't think they forced their hand on this one.

And what game would that be? The (supposed) sequel to Xenoblade?

Look, Tropical Freeze just came out. Retro has likely been working on their next project for a while now, at least in some preproduction form. We don't know what that game is. Some people want them to make another Metroid Prime, others would be cool with a third Donkey Kong Country, others want them to tackle another old Nintendo franchise, and still others would prefer they get a shot at a new IP. I don't fucking care what they do next so long as it's a project that they can feel happy about making. Making another Donkey Kong Country would be the easiest route to take at this point (what with gameplay systems and art assets already existing), but we have no idea, and stomping around in a hissy fit over this when we have no idea what they're working on next is the height of pathetic.

@pyrodactyl: Wouldn't you rather see something new out of the Miyamoto lead team that made Pikmin 3 and is probably not working on Pikmin 4? Perhaps the team that made 3D Land and 3D World is making something new currently. EAD only made 2 Galaxies, surely 2 3D Blanks is a fair number of them. Besides, what would they call a 3rd 3D game? Maybe after the team that made Kirby's Epic Yarn finishes Yoshi's Epic Yarn they can make a game that has nothing to do with yarn! Hey, here's a thought, what's the Warioware guys up to? Doing nothing at all right? They should totally make a new IP! Also, on a serious note, Monster Games, who made the 3DS port of DKCR and helped with Tropical Freeze, could totally be making a new IP. Or, here's a better idea, how about a new 3D Donkey Kong? That could be cool. Camelot wants to make a 3D Donkey Kong too, how about they make a new IP instead? Next Level Games, the guys who made Luigi's Mansion Dark Moon, what are they up to? Probably should be on a new IP.

I could go on and on, my point comes down to this. Why is it that Retro has to make the original IPs? Why aren't you making that demand of EAD, Monster Games, the Epic Yarn Guys, Miyamoto's Pikmin 3 Team, the Warioware team, etc etc? Only Donkey Kong Country's return.

I think another part of it is probably due to what being a Nintendo fan means now a days. Back in the mid to late 90s and early 00s being a Nintendo fan meant being a Rare fan. They made all the best games and were like Double Fine only more center stage. They released like 3 games a year and all of them were filled with great personality and polish. However Rare went to Microsoft bringing a lot of their IP with them making that era of Nintendo's history hard to mine from since they can't exactly make a new Banjo anymore. Definition of being a Nintendo fan now adjusted. Means being a fan of what Nintendo owns the rights to and made themselves primarily. Unfortunate for DKC series. Snubbed by current type of Nintendo fan. Also faced with aging Nintendo fan base. Was made at tail end of when Nintendo IPs stopped being invented. During N64 era most new IPs were made by Rare. Pikmin is the only Gamecube IP. That makes DKC one of the franchises with the least nostalgia going for it for the oldest Nintendo fans.

Samus Aran

@haz: The quote you posted tells us exactly nothing about who made the decision of what Retro was going to do after DKCR.

@hailinel: I'm not angry. I'm just explaining the reasoning behind my first post. Nintendo has been disapointing me for years now and I don't expect any smart decision from them any time soon.

@themasterds: Yes to all your exemples. But realisticaly I would be happy with ONE other studio doing ONE good new thing with the WiiU. Unfortunatly I would guess 75%+ of the studios you mentionned are doing 3DS games because they actually make money on those. From the 25% remaining I would guess some are exploring posibilities with new hardware and the rest have the mandate to make sequels because ''that's what the fans want'' or something like that.

And people want retro to make that new thing because we know they can. I'm much less confident other Nintendo studios could deliver a modern game. The kind of game that would sell consoles to people other than Nintendo hardcore fans.

@pyrodactyl: Well, you sure come across as angry. Or maybe just petulant.

Maybe passionate? I was a Nintendo kid. I grew up with the NES and N64. But Nintendo hasn't done a game I got way into aside from smash brother in like a decade. It was fine with the Wii because their target audiance was not me and they still made billions. Now those people are gone, it would be a good time to slow down with the nostalgia mining and come up with a few new ideas for people like me. It's not like they have anyone left they can sell their consoles to. Kids are on iPods, iPads or non Nintendo consoles because they can play online with their friends there. More casual players are gone. They either do better with fantastic games or they fail as a console maker. Their handheld divison will do fine for a while but that market is slowly dying leaving them as a third party or worst.

If Retro returns to the Donkey Kong Country series one last time, I'm okay with that, but I'd like to see Retro get the greenlight to make something completely original, like a new IP which Nintendo seems to frown upon lately.

Or Retro can take what they learned making a 2D platformer and make a kick-ass 2D Metroid game I've been waiting half my life for.

donkey kong gets a poison dart gun which stuns enemies and he has a motorbike now

How about something new?

Titanfall is also coming out on the 360 and PC...

Calling them pathetic for not making games that cater to your whims isn't passion.

Assuming they have to stay on Wii U anything besides a DKC game. I doubt they could do a Zelda game but they could probably do a Mario game since there has been so many spin-offs.

What I really want them to do is make a PS4/Xbox One game so their talent doesn't go to waste.

I hear DKC Tropical Freeze is really short so maybe it is not a bad idea to create more levels for it and release it as free DLC?

@hailinel:

I can't speak for why others were disappointed, but the reason I see the Donkey Kong Country games as a waste of Retro's time is because of how safe they are. With Metroid Prime, Retro took a series that had been dormant for nearly a decade and had never been anything other than a 2D sidescroller and managed to craft something that was refreshingly new while still managing to capture the defining aspects of a Metroid game. Their two Donkey Kong games are pretty much the same thing Donkey Kong Country has been since 1994. They are probably the best crafted DKC games, but they aren't the revelation that Metroid Prime was.

Also, Metroid Prime showed off their ability to craft amazingly realized worlds, immersive environments, and thoughtful puzzles; the Donkey Kong games don't really have any of this. What it basically comes down to for me is that the Metroid Prime games showed ambition, grand scope, and artistic vision, and I just don't think Donkey Kong Country is the best place for the these qualities to shine through, so I feel a more ambitious game would be a better use of the studio's talents.

Because these Donkey Kong games they're making aren't especially good. Returns was merely okay, and while I haven't played Tropical Freeze (and don't intend to) everything I've seen and heard of it makes it seem like the same thing with slightly better graphics and a few small, largely inconsequential mechanical additions. Boring level design, mediocre visuals, no pacing to speak of, too little challenge, shitty mini-games, bad boss fights et cetera et cetera. The only things Retro have shown that they excel at are atmosphere, exploration and gorgeous visuals, and these games have none of that.

Star Fox

But if Retro excels at those things then why doesn't the Returns series have it? I mean it's not as though the original DKC trilogy didn't have atmosphere and visuals as strong points.

@egg: The old Donkey Kong Country games are hideous.

What are you judging this on? Expectations from now for a game made 20 years ago? At the time DKC looked amazing and I still think has charm, character and a nice almost clay like look. Some games now don't even achieve this sense of character. Not to mention having some of the most memorable Nintendo music to boot.

Now having said all this, DKCR was a great old school treat that was like 'Hey, remember this guys?' and giving some much needed love to DK. But we’ve seen this happen before. Nintendo delves and makes a retro revival of one of it’s older series of games to much fan rejoice and then milks it to the point of lethargy. Take a look at New Super Mario Bros. when the first one came out it was great, Nintendo going back to their roots making a modern day throwback only the way Nintendo can. Then they subsequently went on to create 4 more of these games…in the space of 6 years, thus turning me off the series entirely and if I didn’t see another one for another 6 years I’d be entirely content. Something I never thought I’d say when I was a kid. And I can see them doing the same with Donkey Kong Country. Nintendo don’t seem to know when to quit while the getting is good. They see something work once and sells well and say, ‘Hey lets make another one of those! We know how to do that’ and don’t realise its because it was a retro throwback, a once off, a novelty is what made it so interesting.

@razielcuts: There are plenty of great-looking games from the SNES era and earlier. The issue isn't that the games are old, the issue is that they look terrible. They did then and they do now.

@hailinel: I'm calling them pathetic because they are. In the modern console space at least. Stop pretending all their WiiU games weren't safe and unintersting to most people. The people that buy hardware in mass and dictate whether your console is a success or a failure. They had almost unlimited ressources and some of the most talented game designers in the world but we're deep into the WiiU's lifecycle and that thing is a failure. They played it safe and didn't get why by the numbers sequels to gamecube, Wii and 3DS games wouldn't sell consoles.

@pyrodactyl: Who are you to judge? How many international corporations have you run? What experience do you have in console and game development? What gives you any sort of clout to call them pathetic? As much trouble as the Wii U has had thus far, how do you classify it a "failure"? You speak not from passion, but from the mouth of internet ignorance that dilutes any actual point you have with rash hyperbole that makes you come off as naive.

I just think Retro has a lot of talent and I really want to see what could happen if they made something completely new.

Also because Metroid Prime 3 was good, not great, and I have a sneaking suspicion (with no basis in reality) that DKCR3 might follow the same path.

Also because I didn't think DKCR was all that great.

You're bonkers! Seriously, go compare average SNES graphics of 1995 to the DKC games, 2 especially. I don't know where you're seeing ugly.

And you come across as an insulting jerk who doesn't put any argument forward to disprove my point. People who actually know what they're talking about (buisness analysts, people who make a living analysing that stuff) are all in agreement that the WiiU is a failure. The console didn't hit a third of the amount it was projected to sell last year and it's selling even worst this year.

Again, I think we can all agree that exclusive games people want to buy sell consoles. Turns out Nintendo didn't make any of those for the WiiU or it would be selling better.

@pyrodactyl: My point is that your calling them pathetic is a vapid, needless insult. If you're going to criticize, put more thought into it.

I'm curious to see if Retro will be allowed to work on a new F-Zero, but I don't know if that will happen. Otherwise, make a new IP.

All of these things couldn't be further from the truth. Go away, troll.

@icemael: Even the first?

They should make Donkey Kong 64: Country U

Really I just want a game with Lanky Kong in it.

I doubt their next game will be a Donkey Kong game. I think Nintendo would prefer to hit as many franchises as they can, Tropical Freeze should get the Donkey Kong fans to buy a Wii U, now they move on to some other Nintendo ip to get those fans too. But hey you got two console games, and they weren't very far apart. That's not too shabby as far as Nintendo franchises go, so try and be happy with that.

Maybe they will port Tropical Freeze to 3DS like they did for the previous one.

Let Retro do something new and more mature with storytelling. And with mature I do not mean violence. Go all out with prsentation, voice acting and so on.

Less apes

I think that part of the problem is that Rare's Donkey Kong Franchise is not considered to be a worthy franchise for the revitalization treatment Retro gave to Metroid. This is because some people didn't noticed it went into horrid decline after Rare's buyout and it's one of Nintendo's newer IPs. Only Pokemon, Smash Brothers, Animal Crossing and Pikmin are older than it. Come to think of it I've never seen anyone suggest Animal Crossing or Pokemon for Retro. Everything from Ice Climbers to Zelda has been suggested, but not anything newer than DKC.

Donkey Kong Country was a great game in its time. DKC2 and DKC3 are still world class. Their worlds are rich and detailed, they had tons of personality, the manuals were great, they had exceptional music, and gameplay that was the best of speedy platformers and the best of tight controlling platformers. It was a phenomenon. I'm sorry some of you folks are either too young or too old to have lived it that way but my generation did. My generation still loves it. I still love it.

Returns and Tropical Freeze are very fun too. They're well made games with a lot of creativity in the level design. Rayman Origins was inspired by Returns. Suffice it to say Tropical Freeze is a step above both in terms of making for extremely pretty extremely well thought out atmospheric and creative levels. I bet the 3rd game will be a step above that because that's how the Prime series went.

All the people suggesting Retro could do more, I'd counter that with Jeff's argument for Rare, which is that the talent who made those Prime games may very well not be there anymore. I have no idea, but it has been a very long time since the original Prime, and Prime 3 was kinda a step down from the previous games, so maybe making solid 2D platformers is the best Retro can do these days? That'd be sorta sad, though.

Interesting.

Most people would probably argue that the first game was the best one, by far even, and it went downhill after that. As someone who holds the unusual opinion that Metroid Prime 2 is my favorite of the Prime games, I wouldn't, but I'd say 3 is the weakest of the bunch.

@pyromagnestir: I would say that the Prime games increased in terms of atmosphere and in terms of creativity when it comes to world selection. Prime 1 had Jungle Overworld, Temple, Fire, Ice, Phazon Mines as its worlds. Prime 2 had Wastelands, Bog Tech City as its worlds. Also worth noting that each world had a dark world and there was interesting history how the wasteland used to be a forest and the bog was only flooded recently. Third world had a military base in a canyon, a fuelgel world, cloud city and acid rain planet as its worlds. Each is a step up in terms of creativity and not being the norm. A franchise under Retro's hand will never New Super Mario Brothers into the same worlds every year. Gameplay wise I'm unsure, maybe you're right and Metroid Prime 2 is the sweet spot since the aiming controls were a bit weird, but I think I'd give the edge to 3 regardless.

Such is the case with Tropical Freeze. The first game was the classic DKC1 Archetypes plus Beach and Volcano (Oddly volcano drew very little influence from DKC2's Crocodile Cauldron) whereas Tropical Freeze went Bog-With-Plane-Wreckage, National Park, Savanna, Ocean, Fruit Filled Jungle, Frozen DK Island. Much more novelty to each world, plus a lot more variance. Really solid work, arguably much better than DKCR.

Also, interesting to note while we're talking about the 3rd Retro DKC (which is what the topic is about) is the fact that Metroid Prime 3 threw in a lot more direct narrative. There were characters you spoke to. Multiple even! Some went bad and betrayed you down the line. Others just gave you missions. Sure, in Prime 2 there was the 1 Luminoth guy who did that but there were like a half a dozen characters in 3. Maybe they'll do that for DKC as well?

@themasterds: I don't think a lack of nostalgia is the reason people don't want Donkey Kong as much as those other series, remember Donkey Kong is actually the oldest Nintendo franchise. It's because it's a 2d platformer, and Mario already does that. We don't need multiple 2d platforming franchises on the same system, and most other Nintendo series offer something outside of that genre. I mean, I love Donkey Kong Country too, but it's no Mario.

I'd like them to take a break from DKC for a few years, Tropical freeze is great though.

I'd love for them to bring back that spooky haunted pirate theme from DKC2 though.

A 3D take on Donkey Kong Country could be awesome too, not like DKC 64 though, more like Banjo-Galaxy.

@hunter5024: Rare's Donkey Kong Franchise is as much of an offshoot off Donkey Kong Arcade as Mario is. That makes it its own thing. Also fuck right off with that shit. For a start the Retro DKCs are more on the level of Rayman than on the level of the New Super Mario Brothers when it comes to creativity and atmosphere so it should really be the Mario Brothers games that stop being made. Second though it doesn't matter, both can coexist especially if both make money which they both do.

Gorilla Armour