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#51 Posted by twigger89 (277 posts) -

@morbid_coffee: See that's what bums me out about dota. If you can point out that someone is doing something wrong, you can also point out what they can do better. Constructive criticism is the best way to learn dota and it is a shame your only experience with the game was tainted by unhelpful assholes ( as opposed to helpful assholes lol).

@truthtellah: Maybe there was some underlying bitterness there, for which I apologize. I found out I bombed a midterm last night and I've not been in a great mood since. That doesn't excuse any hostility but hopefully it does explain it a bit.

I think we both agree that assholes make dota2 an unfun experience, but I think we disagree on which assholes are the real problem. For me it's the people who do something poorly, and when you point it out and offer an alternative they flip out on you. I'll give an example.

Me: "Hey phantom assassin you may want to get a BKB instead of that MKB. They have a lot of stuns and they will definitely target you first because you are pretty squishy atm."

PA: "If you do your job properly Magnus(that's me) I won't need a BKB, just catch them all in your ulti and we can win."

Me: "Catching all 5 heroes in an ulti is not something you can really expect, I'll do what I can but I doubt their postioning will be bad enough to make that a possibility."

PA: "You're just a shitty Magnus, when I play I can catch all 5 every time I ulti, just get better noob/asshole/insert slur here"

Then there is a team fight where I get a good ulti, but a few survive, they pop their own BKBs and nuke down our PA, which causes us to lose the fight. It is usually here that I start getting annoyed because that dude's attitude isn't going to get better. He is an asshole because he is trying to hide the fact that he has limited knowledge of the game and thinks that if he attacks others it will distract from him. If he would just take the simple advice given to him in a respectful manner, everyone would benefit.

Dota2 is a game where every mistake matters, so it is in a teams interest to take preventative measures so as to not lose control. Concise and respectful communication is one of the most important aspects of the game, regardless of your skill level. I think we should all expect someone to at least be capable of listening to teammates and making rational decisions based on that information. That's not a game skill, that's a life skill that everyone should have developed.

#52 Edited by Hef (1097 posts) -

What gets me is people know Dota has a super steep learning curve, yet they just jump in blind and wonder why people are pissed at them. It's an average 30-40 minute game and people don't have time to hold your hand all the way through. Play bot matches, actually use the learn tab that's right there in the game and try and figure stuff out before going in. I'll give you a freebie right now though, google welcome to dota, you suck. It is a really good beginners guide and there's even a version right in steam.

Also look around the steam guides for heroes your playing, because you can literally load those builds right into the game and set the items to quickbuy. Valve has done a very good job giving people the information they need, and are slowly working on ease of access. Use the tools they've given you and you'll find that people yell at you almost never. You will obviously have those one or two assholes from time to time, but what game doesn't?

#53 Edited by EXTomar (4499 posts) -

The thing people ALWAYS, WITH OUT FAIL to remember is the Match Making system for games like Dota 2 strive to match you with others at your skill level such that your win/loss ratio is 50%. Unless you are at the very top end (or the very bottom), you are going to lose as much as you win if everything is functioning correctly. The chances of being matched with or against some super star 80/20 player is nil so anyone who is spouting off in TEAM channel saying how elite they are compared to everyone else on the team is mistaken or lying.

#54 Posted by LordXavierBritish (6320 posts) -

@extomar said:

The thing people ALWAYS, WITH OUT FAIL to remember is the Match Making system for games like Dota 2 strive to match you with others at your skill level such that your win/loss ratio is 50%.

I've watched a match where one of my friends destroyed an entire team by himself after everyone on his team disconnected.

As a Sniper.

#55 Posted by WhiteBrightKnight (166 posts) -

Pick PL +KoTL lane

gg

#56 Posted by Slag (4008 posts) -

@twigger89 :

I think you misunderstood what I was getting at (which I'll get to in a sec)

I do appreciate the offer to teach me, that is very kind of you. But I already know how to play. My interest is in the betterment of the game and the scene.

I won't pretend I'm elite, but I am a competent player. I'm sure you are likely better than I am, possibly far better for all I know. But I have been playing these games (whether you call them MOBAs, DotAs, AOSs, whatever) for 7-8 years now. Mainly the War3 mod, but some LoL as well as some others. As soon as one of my buddy finally gets his new PC built, we'll probably migrate over to Dota2 would be my guess.

It's a great game and really fun when you get a close match.

@twigger89: said:

It is not a game for fucking about, or messing around with friends and such.

Sure it is. All games are. It's no different than any other sport. It's no different than Basketball, Baseball, Soccer, Poker,Ice Hockey, Downhill Skiing, Darts, Street Fighter II etc etc. Take your pick

You can play for Lulz & good times or you can play it at an ultra competitive elite level. Dota is not any one thing, it all depends on who is playing. That is part of what makes it such a great video game. There is no wrong way to play this game and that's what the hardcore Dota community does not understand. They don't own Dota2 or LoL or any other MOBA. The only reason it seems that way is they keep driving so many causal players out of the game so it ends up being that way be default.

I completely agree with you that this primarily the fault of the devs not making an adequate matchmaking system to separate the two conflicting wants. Ideally people like yourself (or me when I used to play on a regular basis)should never be matched with new players or causal players. It doesn't work for anybody

But what the hardcore Dota community does not seem to realize is that having causal players is a valid way to play Dota and ultimately good for the game and the future of the competitive scene. That's what I don't understand is this notion that the feeders are the problem. It's the matchmaking that is the problem, not bad players.

Today's causal could be tomorrow's champion. All competitive scenes have less serious ways to play to encourage more people to play. To introduce more people to the game. That is how sports keep replenishing players, which ultimately keeps the audience large enough to be able to get good games on demand.

Nor does the competitive scene seem to realize that casuals probably never mean to ruin their games nor is it their fault if they do. In most cases they are thrust into games they don't want to be in either.

That's no excuse to go off on somebody for something that isn't their fault just because you want to play it one way and they want (or only can) play it another. It's free to play public game that is available to anyone to download. If Valve wanted to, they could attempt gate this game to people of a certain skill level, but they don't. It's no secret club and it's no excuse for abusive behavior for when the public plays a very public game.

This exclusive judgmental attitude that Dota2 is "only for serious players only" is toxic and holding the scene back. Look at all the comments in this thread, look how many people will never even give this game a chance because the they don't want to deal with harassment. My guess is Giant Bomb forum posters tend to be hardcore gamers on average and I suspect many of these commenters would/could be good players if they didn't feel unwelcome.

That's what I'm trying to say.

#57 Posted by Pachtar_Klepek (89 posts) -

Pretty sure they're playing with industry friends.

Not going to watch if its first time players.

#58 Posted by Mr_Skeleton (5137 posts) -

Just listened to the podcast, someone should tell Brad the truth about Brazil and Russia.

#59 Posted by ajamafalous (11850 posts) -

Oh god, they're playing Dota on TNT? I realllllllly hope it's an inhouse with people they know or it's going to be insufferable.

Also, I think the general attitude of people in this thread is pretty funny.

1) It's a goddamn LXB thread, of course he's going to curse a bunch and try to make some jokes. Go read literally any of his threads.
2) Neither of the posts getting singled out as "condescending" come off as the least bit condescending.
3) I will still never understand the thought process of "Hey guys, I know this game is super competitive and has one of the steepest learning curves of any game but I'm just going to jump in without doing any research or any practice, then play poorly, then be offended when I ruin everybody else's game and they get mad at me." Dota games last for upwards of 60 minutes. When your poor play directly impacts everybody else's enjoyment, of course they're going to be mad. You can solve this problem by telling your team up front, during hero pick, that you're new and asking for any advice. Don't wait until you've fed three kills to their carry; it's too late at that point.
4, an extension of 3) I honestly almost never have any teammates yelling insults at each other. It must just be frequent in the beginner bracket and taper off as people get better. I solo queue into High and Very High, and I get an obnoxious teammate maybe once every 20 games. It really seems more like people trying to get into the game have a bad experience or two and then stop playing but continue to bring up "how awful and toxic the community is" at every turn. It's really not that bad.
5) I feel like I had a few more things to say but I forgot them over the course of writing this post. Oh well.

Bottom line: if you're actually interested in playing Dota and getting better, then keep playing. When you first start playing, the matchmaking will only match you with people who have around the same amount of wins as you (as opposed to wins and skill level) and are just starting out; the problem you'll run into is that the game has no way of knowing whether a player with 10 wins is someone like you who's only played 25 games of Dota 2 and that's it, or someone like me, who had played several thousand games of both DotA and HoN before moving to Dota 2 (I mean this in the least condescending way possible, I promise).

6) My post will probably also be labeled as condescending.

#60 Posted by supamon (1333 posts) -

Just listened to the podcast, someone should tell Brad the truth about Brazil and Russia.

Nay, we should keep up the charade as long as possible. Jajajajaja!

#61 Posted by twigger89 (277 posts) -

@slag: @ajamafalous hit on it perfectly. Dota2 is a team game that lasts upwards of an hour. One person playing poorly can ruin the experience not only for their own team but for the enemy team as well because there is competition and it just turns into a stomp. I wish that there was an unranked matchmaking system so that people who aren't playing to win can fuck around there, but as it is when you hit that search button you are basically saying 'I'm taking this reasonably serious.' When I play heroes I have little experience with or I am trying out experimental builds, I play against bots. Partially because I can immediately leave once I learn what I wanted to and partially because my shitty play isn't ruining anyone elses game.

I agree with you that new blood is constantly needed for any game, but particularly for a competitive game because it needs a large pool of players to better the matchmaking system. That said, new players need to come in with the right mindset that this can be a difficult game to learn and they should try to be as proactive about learning as they can. Do you have to watch videos and read guides before you play? No. Should you at least know what your heroes abilities are and what role he/she generally plays? Yes. If you can't do that basic level of looking up (as all this information is given within dota2, the learn tab is pretty awesome) than dota2 is probably not a good game for you. That's not me being elitist or condescending, that's just me acknowledging that you and the game don't seem to match up well.

#62 Posted by MikkaQ (10268 posts) -

My problem with MOBAs is that they seem impossible to dabble in, unlike a lot of other competitive games. I have an appreciation for people who are good at "e-sports" (ugh) favorites like Starcraft II, MvC2, Street Fighter IV, and 3rd Strike, and as such I play all of those games casually. I mess around, I lose a lot, but I have a lot of fun building weird stupid units or surprising someone with a new combo. I find myself in this in-between status where I'm willing to buy and customize a fight stick but am not willing to count frames or examine hit boxes (in the case of fighting games, obviously).

MOBAs seem to have no room for this kind of player, it just seems like it's full of people who derive all their fun from victory and not from playing with the game itself. It doesn't seem like a particularly welcoming community compared to the people I've met in the fighting game world (particularly Street Fighter) who helped me to foster my passion for those kinds of games, even throwing matches or going easy on me just so I can learn new concepts.

For a lot of the shit the FGC gets, they at least know how to welcome a newbie.

#63 Posted by ajamafalous (11850 posts) -

@mikkaq said:

My problem with MOBAs is that they seem impossible to dabble in, unlike a lot of other competitive games. I have an appreciation for people who are good at "e-sports" (ugh) favorites like Starcraft II, MvC2, Street Fighter IV, and 3rd Strike, and as such I play all of those games casually. I mess around, I lose a lot, but I have a lot of fun building weird stupid units or surprising someone with a new combo. I find myself in this in-between status where I'm willing to buy and customize a fight stick but am not willing to count frames or examine hit boxes (in the case of fighting games, obviously).

MOBAs seem to have no room for this kind of player, it just seems like it's full of people who derive all their fun from victory and not from playing with the game itself. It doesn't seem like a particularly welcoming community compared to the people I've met in the fighting game world (particularly Street Fighter) who helped me to foster my passion for those kinds of games, even throwing matches or going easy on me just so I can learn new concepts.

For a lot of the shit the FGC gets, they at least know how to welcome a newbie.

A few things:

1) I think you'd be better served comparing Dota to StarCraft than comparing it to a fighting game, and even then it's kind of a stretch. You aren't playing Marvel 5 on 5, for example. Most fighting games are about personal skill, whereas Dota is just as much (maybe even moreso) about team cohesion and communication with everybody playing their role.
2) It's kinda hard for someone to "go easy on you" in Dota. Where, in a fighting game, the matches are usually no longer than 100 seconds and it's pretty much anyone's to win for most of that time, Dota (as well as StarCraft) is all about snowballing a bunch of small victories and advantages into an overall victory. This is evident in the most common scenario discussed in this thread: 4 of Team A's heroes are crushing Team B, so they have an advantage, but all it takes is Team A's fifth hero feeding a few stupid/avoidable kills to the wrong hero on Team B and the game is lost.
3, continuation of 2 because I structured it poorly) In a fighting game, a more experienced player could pretty easily cut out some advanced mechanics when teaching someone new, e.g. "I could've punished his air here, but I won't, and I'll just use jabs and throws instead of comboing him" (or something). You can't really do that in Dota. How would you? If I'm teaching you for example, what am I gonna do to go easy on you? Not use my skills on you? Not escape from escapable deaths? Walk at you and not attack to feed you a few kills to even it out? The mechanics of the game don't really allow it. In a fighting game, you're likely just practicing basic execution (special moves, combos, etc.) until you learn the ropes while someone goes easy on you, and then you're playing against someone at full strength to improve your game. The basic mechanics of Dota are very simple: attack creeps, attack towers, attack heroes, attack the ancient. Use skills and items to augment this. After a certain (early) point in a player's Dota career, the actual execution isn't what separates players: it's their theory, overall knowledge, decision making, and adaptation that dictates whether they'll win or lose. That's why the learning curve is so steep: not because playing the game is difficult or challenging, but because you need to know how every hero behaves, what it's strong and weak against, what items to buy against the enemy team, how to best fight against them in any given situation that could occur, how your team stacks up against theirs, and how to adapt your items, playstyle, and your team's strategy to how the game is going.
4) All of that being said, I know there are quite a few people in this very Giant Bomb community that have offered their help in teaching new players the ropes. That includes @twigger89, @indiefinch, @sweep, and anyone else I'm forgetting. I believe there's also at least one, if not more, Dota 2 GB Steam group that has players of all skill levels in it, and I'm sure people would love to teach newcomers how to play. I think the biggest problem is that people don't take the learning process seriously enough, so they play a dozen games, don't really see any progress or any rhyme or reason to what happened in any of the games, say "eh, whatever I guess," and stop playing. The game is incredibly rewarding, but you need to be prepared to devote some time to learning it if you want to get anything out of it.

#64 Edited by Sweep (8817 posts) -
Moderator
#65 Posted by MikkaQ (10268 posts) -

Yeah I think that's the biggest problem is that people take the game itself too seriously, so people can't have fun during the learning process. If you're not having fun learning a game, then why bother putting the time in, basically? I've learned enough about RTS and fighting games to goof off and have fun playing them, but not necessarily win. The way MOBA players talk, it's almost like playing a 30 minute match and then losing isn't worth the time to them, which is pretty sad I think. Games should be rewarding to play win or lose.

#66 Posted by FLStyle (4579 posts) -

What does it mean to feed and why should I avoid it? Who am I feeding? What are "they" getting out of it?

#67 Posted by rebgav (1429 posts) -

@flstyle: Feeding is handing the opposition easy kills. Don't die to opposition players, they will out-level your team quickly if there is weak player handing out free xp all game.

#68 Posted by FLStyle (4579 posts) -
#69 Posted by twigger89 (277 posts) -

@mikkaq said:

Yeah I think that's the biggest problem is that people take the game itself too seriously, so people can't have fun during the learning process. If you're not having fun learning a game, then why bother putting the time in, basically? I've learned enough about RTS and fighting games to goof off and have fun playing them, but not necessarily win. The way MOBA players talk, it's almost like playing a 30 minute match and then losing isn't worth the time to them, which is pretty sad I think. Games should be rewarding to play win or lose.

Think of it like this, you've been building a sand castle. It's a difficult process but you are enjoying task, as you are slowly but surely building a better and more majestic sand castle. Out of nowhere, a bystander steps in and totals your sand castle. It was a complete accident and the person may even apologize, but in the end your sand castle is gone. You are angry not because you feel like your time was wasted, but because your pinnacle enjoyment (in this case completing the sand castle) was taken from you. Now imagine that happening multiple times a day, where the person who steps on your sand castle is just as likely to call you a try hard bitch as he is to apologize. Wouldn't that bother you as well?

If you want to goof off in dota, you can totally do that, just join/create a bot match. You can do anything you want there. But once you join a team of 4 other dudes, you are basically saying "yeah I'm going to do my part to help us win or at least try for it" and going in there with a contradictory mentality is just going to ruin the experience for both you and them.

It's akin to going to a movie theatre and then getting mad that the screen is too big and it's too dark inside. That's the point of the experience, competitive games are meant to be played competitively, and while dota2 doesn't do a great job of giving non competitive players a place to enjoy the mechanics of the game sans pressure that doesn't make the competitive aspect any less integral to the game experience.

#70 Posted by IndieFinch (242 posts) -

@ajamafalous: Yeah that is true, I am always willing to answer questions / show people the ropes. I am now starting to create Hero guides in game, then recording a MP3 companion to it and slapping it up on the Dota Insight podcast stream / website for new players to try new heros.

I wouldn't really consider Dota a "hard" game. It is a game that requires you to be smarter then the average bear because of how deep it is. When comparing it to SC2 and a fighting game, Dota is just different beast. I know in SC2 I have spent thousands of hours training, I know that unless you have committed as much as me...I will crush you 100% of the time. In fighting games, I know I suck. I like to jump in and play with some friends and mess around...but when I play against a player who actually plays seriously...he will crush me 100% of the time. The same can be said for Dota if it was only a 1v1 game, I would beat most newer players 100% of the time. But when it comes to a regular 5v5 match, sure I can be the best player on the team but all it takes is the worst player on the team to die a whole bunch to an enemy carry and we will lose the game. That is where the hostility comes in. The people who have dedicated a lot to Dota, get a loss because of a player who didn't dedicate as much time as them. Rather then trying to coach that person and help them out, it is easier for people to get upset and rage. 45min+ is a long time to sit into a game being focused just to have it go from a win to a loss because one guy stepped out of position at the wrong time.

There is never an excuse for someone to yell at a new player. That being said, new players need to respect what Dota is and what type of game it is. This is a game that has been studied, tuned, perfected, min/maxed, and balanced for a decade. You are not just competing against people who are new to Dota 2 like yourself, you are playing against people who have played only Dota since 2005. Before you dive in, you need to check the guides / systems out there so you can at least get the basics down so you are able to comprehend what is happening and why it is happening.

The easiest thing to do is to start with a hero that is easy to play, but has a big effect on helping your team. Lich, Tidehunter...etc are heros that have massive abilities that change team fights. Since abilities do not scale with items, as long as you get experience...you can use your abilities. By starting here you can begin to see which heros do what, you will learn the dance on laning / phases through the game. Once you get comfortable with a few easier ones then you can branch out to other roles. This thread here: http://www.giantbomb.com/dota-2/3030-32887/forums/the-i-am-new-to-dota-beginners-guide-570903/#54 has a TON of valuable information from a very wide range of players.

#71 Posted by porr (178 posts) -

whats with all these naysayers? this TNT is going to be fuckin bonkers!

#72 Edited by EXTomar (4499 posts) -

Dota 2 is "difficult" like Magic The Gathering is "difficult" where you need to be somewhat familiar a wide range of effects and combinations. If I remember correctly there are (at least) 99 heroes, all of which have at least 3 abilities (several have special categories of effects) and an "ultimate", and a boat load of gear options that not only can improve general performance but some actually "extend" effects. That is a lot of stuff a player needs to in mind which is beyond what a casual player would put effort into.

#73 Posted by Ben_H (3311 posts) -

I played all of one game of DOTA. I understood don't feed, but the entire time I played I was told I was doing things wrong.

When I responded with "what do you want me to do" the response was "stop sucking."

That was my first and last experience with DOTA.

Don't let people get you down. I don't play a lot of DOTA 2 (I play SC2 mostly. I was playing a fair amount of DOTA 2 before the new SC2 expansion came out though), but I have played with some very helpful people. When you are just starting, if someone is being a dick, just block them and keep playing. The likely thing is they have no idea what they are doing but instead are taking their anger out on you. The bad thing about games like DOTA is that there are a lot of people at the low levels that are awful but can't see their own mistakes so they try and pick apart their team instead of actually improving. They think they are good and that it is their team bringing them down when that is not the case. We see that in Starcraft as well, lower level players blaming race or balance for why they lost when in reality it is because they are awful.

The first multiplayer game of Starcraft 2 I ever played, the guy cheesed me, told me I was bad and that I should just quit. 3000 games later I am glad I didn't listen.

#74 Edited by Mr_Skeleton (5137 posts) -

I played all of one game of DOTA. I understood don't feed, but the entire time I played I was told I was doing things wrong.

When I responded with "what do you want me to do" the response was "stop sucking."

That was my first and last experience with DOTA.

Not sure when you last played but now you can play with humans against bots. Try playing it with one of the in game guides (top left corner) and ask the people in the game to help, there will always be at least one guy nice enough to help. Those games are usually very laid back and people tend to be much nicer.

#76 Posted by Solutha (34 posts) -

I hope they do some in house games.

#77 Posted by thebunnyhunter (1354 posts) -

Im a big fan of LOL and understand alot of that game but then i switch toi Dota 2 and just cant bring myself to learn new characters. Maybe with the TNT it could push me back in

#78 Posted by ajamafalous (11850 posts) -

@extomar said:

Dota 2 is "difficult" like Magic The Gathering is "difficult" where you need to be somewhat familiar a wide range of effects and combinations. If I remember correctly there are (at least) 99 heroes, all of which have at least 3 abilities (several have special categories of effects) and an "ultimate", and a boat load of gear options that not only can improve general performance but some actually "extend" effects. That is a lot of stuff a player needs to in mind which is beyond what a casual player would put effort into.

110*

But yeah, your post is correct.

#79 Posted by Icemo (642 posts) -

I have only knowledge in LoL, but these tips should work in dota too. Five people following a bad call is better than half a team following a good call, since if your team does not work together you have a hard time winning fights. After the "laning phase" when your team starts to push together as a 5 man team, don't splitpush or wander off alone unless your hero has teleport or you are strong enough to win 1v1 against any of the enemy players.

#80 Posted by o5ris (22 posts) -

honestly, on the level brad is playing and most beginners will be playing you don't have to know 110 heroes and all items.

you have to take a minute when the game starts to read the skills of the heroes in the game and maybe vaguely judge their role. other than that simply keeping an eye on the minimap and not running into creeps all the time unless you lasthit/deny will make you better than most beginners. just like in sc2 knowing few buildorders and not letting production/expansion slide because you are trying to micro like a pro will be enough to not be placed in the bottom leagues.

i played dota the last time in ... 08/09 ? before giving dota 2 a try earlier this year, didn't read up on any item/hero changes or new heros and i was fine. did i buy wrong shit, die due to my own stupidity or got bitched at ? sure, but who cares. anybody that has played any team based multiplayer should know that people love to bitch, thats whats mute for.

imho the bigger problem to get new players is the game length. sure when playing with friends or people that are open to work together you can turn games around, but when you have clearly lost 20-25 minutes in and have to play for another 15-20 minutes because you lose all motivation.

at least regular dota gave you the options to leave a clearly lost game, forfeit or swap a player from the better team over to the loosing team to keep a game interesting.

#81 Posted by bemusedchunk (668 posts) -

@POLLIWOG said:

A new DotA player should:

  • Initially learn as much as he/she can about Dota's Heroes and mechanics
  • Have thick skin
  • Have willingness to learn
  • Be able to admit mistakes
  • Take direction from more veteran players
  • Ignore trolls / ragers who are taking things too seriously

I can't agree with this more.

I played MMO's since Everquest and have put easily 7 years of my life into World of Warcraft.

The ONE reason why I love WoW so much is dungeons. Everyone has a role to play and the whole group is dependent on each person playing their role smart, but also being flexible enough and know what buttons to hit for those "oh shit!" moments.

I approach Dota2 the same god damn way. Know your "role", realize what your hero can and can't do, figure out how to handle yourself in "oh shit!" moments, and of course - listen to people who know the game more than you do.

The only difference is that with WoW, you can have all the time in the world to explain a boss fight before someone actually engaged with the boss. Dota2 is different in that everything is happening all at once and there is no downtime. That's where voice chat comes in.

#82 Edited by connerthekewlkid (1803 posts) -

Well this thread went well.

and remember: DOTA 2 is just a video game, you dont have to take it so seriously you guys.

#83 Edited by EXTomar (4499 posts) -

@extomar said:

Dota 2 is "difficult" like Magic The Gathering is "difficult" where you need to be somewhat familiar a wide range of effects and combinations. If I remember correctly there are (at least) 99 heroes, all of which have at least 3 abilities (several have special categories of effects) and an "ultimate", and a boat load of gear options that not only can improve general performance but some actually "extend" effects. That is a lot of stuff a player needs to in mind which is beyond what a casual player would put effort into.

110*

But yeah, your post is correct.

I wasn't confident of the 99 number but it kept popping up in my head.

I am still of two minds on the "surrender" thing. On the one hand, well into the match if you look at the stats and see all 5 of your opponents are ahead on XP or Gold or both then things are extremely dire because for whatever reason your team is not keeping pace. On the other hand, penalties for leaving "encourages" players to stick it out and try to find a come from behind victory. I have had a couple of matches where while technically behind we still won because we focused on systematically pulling down their base and getting the ancient but that was also one of the long matches I've ever played and looking back on it I wonder if that hard fought victory really gained me anything.

Right now I see it as a good thing Dota 2 doesn't allow surrender but I can also see the argument that it should allow surrender for matches in a certain low level/exp range that are completely lopsided or at the very least no or very low penalty for abandoning.

#84 Posted by twigger89 (277 posts) -

@extomar said:

@ajamafalous said:

@extomar said:

Dota 2 is "difficult" like Magic The Gathering is "difficult" where you need to be somewhat familiar a wide range of effects and combinations. If I remember correctly there are (at least) 99 heroes, all of which have at least 3 abilities (several have special categories of effects) and an "ultimate", and a boat load of gear options that not only can improve general performance but some actually "extend" effects. That is a lot of stuff a player needs to in mind which is beyond what a casual player would put effort into.

110*

But yeah, your post is correct.

I wasn't confident of the 99 number but it kept popping up in my head.

I am still of two minds on the "surrender" thing. On the one hand, well into the match if you look at the stats and see all 5 of your opponents are ahead on XP or Gold or both then things are extremely dire because for whatever reason your team is not keeping pace. On the other hand, penalties for leaving "encourages" players to stick it out and try to find a come from behind victory. I have had a couple of matches where while technically behind we still won because we focused on systematically pulling down their base and getting the ancient but that was also one of the long matches I've ever played and looking back on it I wonder if that hard fought victory really gained me anything.

Right now I see it as a good thing Dota 2 doesn't allow surrender but I can also see the argument that it should allow surrender for matches in a certain low level/exp range that are completely lopsided or at the very least no or very low penalty for abandoning.

I don't understand the no surrender thing, why is dota trying to punish me by keeping me with a team I don't want to play with or a game I've already lost? One of the things I love about starcraft is that I can call gg as soon as I felt I lost, leave the game, and then immediately watch the replay to figure out where I fucked up. In dota 2 it makes me wait until the other team to decide they've done enough farming and push to end.

Have I come back from games that I thought were already lost? Yes. Would I trade those few excellent games for the hours I've lost in the dozens if not hundreds of games I had to sit there for 25 minutes while the enemy team farms their supports to carry level gear? In a heartbeat. Honestly it makes it difficult to play another game after you had to continue a game to the 40 minute mark that should have ended by the 20 minute mark.

#85 Posted by o5ris (22 posts) -

i'm myself not sure how to regulate the ability to leave a game, but there is a big diffrence in being lets say 20 kills or 20k gold/exp behind and having heros that can outcarry the enemy team later or a lineup that can teamfight and ending up in a team where you have zero stuns and 3 people with barely more than boots while half your base is down.

bottom line is its not fun to sit in base for 15-20 minutes with no possible comeback, while occasionally switching back into the game to not get banned till the other team is gracious enough to stop killing you at you own fountain and finish, especially when it would take 20s of auto attacks to finish the last towers and ancient.

#86 Edited by ajamafalous (11850 posts) -

@twigger89 said:

@extomar said:

@ajamafalous said:

@extomar said:

Dota 2 is "difficult" like Magic The Gathering is "difficult" where you need to be somewhat familiar a wide range of effects and combinations. If I remember correctly there are (at least) 99 heroes, all of which have at least 3 abilities (several have special categories of effects) and an "ultimate", and a boat load of gear options that not only can improve general performance but some actually "extend" effects. That is a lot of stuff a player needs to in mind which is beyond what a casual player would put effort into.

110*

But yeah, your post is correct.

I wasn't confident of the 99 number but it kept popping up in my head.

I am still of two minds on the "surrender" thing. On the one hand, well into the match if you look at the stats and see all 5 of your opponents are ahead on XP or Gold or both then things are extremely dire because for whatever reason your team is not keeping pace. On the other hand, penalties for leaving "encourages" players to stick it out and try to find a come from behind victory. I have had a couple of matches where while technically behind we still won because we focused on systematically pulling down their base and getting the ancient but that was also one of the long matches I've ever played and looking back on it I wonder if that hard fought victory really gained me anything.

Right now I see it as a good thing Dota 2 doesn't allow surrender but I can also see the argument that it should allow surrender for matches in a certain low level/exp range that are completely lopsided or at the very least no or very low penalty for abandoning.

I don't understand the no surrender thing, why is dota trying to punish me by keeping me with a team I don't want to play with or a game I've already lost? One of the things I love about starcraft is that I can call gg as soon as I felt I lost, leave the game, and then immediately watch the replay to figure out where I fucked up. In dota 2 it makes me wait until the other team to decide they've done enough farming and push to end.

Have I come back from games that I thought were already lost? Yes. Would I trade those few excellent games for the hours I've lost in the dozens if not hundreds of games I had to sit there for 25 minutes while the enemy team farms their supports to carry level gear? In a heartbeat. Honestly it makes it difficult to play another game after you had to continue a game to the 40 minute mark that should have ended by the 20 minute mark.

Yeah, I actually completely agree with you. Sure, I've had a handful of games where we won even though we didn't really have any business winning them, but in no way does that make up for the hundreds of games that went on for an extra 20-30 minutes after they had already been decided. The only way you can effectively concede is to get everyone to sit in the well, but even then, the enemy team would almost always rather grief the well, leave to go farm their jungle for another 10 minutes, or push one lane, then rotate to the other two lanes and completely push them instead of just pushing the T4s and the ancient.

Dota 2 is the only game in this genre that doesn't allow a team to concede, and it's frankly baffling that Valve is being so stubborn about not adding one. They either need to add a concede or make the penalty for leaving a game such that it isn't crippling to leave a game that's 24-8 at 20 minutes.

#87 Posted by IndieFinch (242 posts) -

@icemo said:

I have only knowledge in LoL, but these tips should work in dota too. Five people following a bad call is better than half a team following a good call, since if your team does not work together you have a hard time winning fights. After the "laning phase" when your team starts to push together as a 5 man team, don't splitpush or wander off alone unless your hero has teleport or you are strong enough to win 1v1 against any of the enemy players.

I wouldn't really say that would be a good thing in Dota. Sure if your team is built with a really strong pushing lineup with Sylla, Lesh...etc then yeah sure. But sat you have a hard carry like Faceless Void, you are going to want to play a 4v5 style where you protect Void and allow him to farm. If you do have someone like Prophet, Tinker, or Lycan, then you are going to want to spread the field and force them to defend multiple locations. League is built around the teammfight, Dota can be if you play a specific hero lineup...but I would say most of the time you are waiting to get those big items / ganking. The big teamfight usually comes when one team is contesting Roshan.

@ajamafalous: I think the problem is that once you add a button to surrender, people will be really quick to use it. Dota allows for a lot more comebacks then League does just due to how the mechanics work. If you have a decent carry, you need to protect them to get that one big item. If you have the ability to split push, do that. Someone should be buying Smoke throughout the game to pick up kills. As soon as you are behind, start smoke ganking their jungle / lanes. Picking one guy off and all of yours getting out freely can really get you back into the game. My fear is that if they added a surrender button, people would stop doing these things. People already give up way way to early and call "gg" in chat when there is no reason to. Sure it is way easier to just surrender and start a new game, but I think that would become the default answer to every game. If you are losing that bad where there is no possible way to come back, there is a good chance the enemy is already taking your rax.

#88 Edited by EXTomar (4499 posts) -

The question really is: How to incentivize to continue to fight on while only "a little behind" while not punishing "way behind". A thing that bugged me about "other games" is that some games one side gives up too quickly because the first confrontation didn't go their way.

I think most of us are in agreement that there really should be "mercy rules" but I do see the reason why the dynamics are different and more positive and mostly due to the "no surrender" factor. That isn't a defense or an excuse but it is a factor that I know changes the way I play where I personally get into this feeling of dread (this is going to be one of those games) instead of rage. I'm not enthusiastic that making me feel dread or rage is when my team is sliding backwards but I will favor dread over rage.

#89 Edited by Nights (606 posts) -
@extomar said:

Dota 2 is "difficult" like Magic The Gathering is "difficult" where you need to be somewhat familiar a wide range of effects and combinations. If I remember correctly there are (at least) 99 heroes, all of which have at least 3 abilities (several have special categories of effects) and an "ultimate", and a boat load of gear options that not only can improve general performance but some actually "extend" effects. That is a lot of stuff a player needs to in mind which is beyond what a casual player would put effort into.

Exactly. Granted, I haven't played Dota 2 (I play LoL), but the argument holds true. While League of Legends doesn't have a ridiculously high mechanical skill cap (though some champions require a lot more skill than others), the breadth of knowledge required in order to be successful is quite daunting for a new player. Like you said, you have to understand the basic concepts, the current meta, all of the items and then 100+ champions. Then you have to be able to apply that information on the fly. Sure, some champions you'll rarely see, but you still need to know what they're capable of.

Things like: Does your team synergize? How? Does the other team have a lot of CC? Do they have a strong level 1 invade? Is their jungler a slow clearer who relies on blue buff? If so, is your jungler capable of invading and stealing their red? Does your opposing champion have a strong laning phase? Do they have a strong late game? Based on what items I have and the enemy has (while keeping base stats/level in mind), would I win a trade? Is he capable of "all-inning" me once he reaches level 6? Our jungler is Shaco so he'll probably go for an early gank. Their jungler is Warwick and his ganks are weak until he gets his ultimate, therefore I can be a little more aggressive. The other team has Twisted Fate so I have to be weary of his global ultimate/split-pushing capabilities. Are they stacking armor, health or magic resist? It goes on and on and on. I haven't even played that many Normal matches in LoL, but I watch a lot of LCS NA/EU, streams, I read guides, forums, etc. in order to lessen the knowledge gap.

There are a lot of assholes/idiots on LoL, but there's a lot of resources out there that will help soften the blow. It just requires a lot more effort than your average game. I admit it can be a bit discouraging. Hell, I make mistakes all of the time, you just have to bite the bullet and push on. It's the only way to improve. I've gotten chewed out for my own mistakes as well as having others blame me for theirs. I've had my mid-lane go 0-3 7 minutes into the match and then claim it's my fault. "Y u no gank, noob, noob jnglr!" Just mute them.

#90 Edited by ajamafalous (11850 posts) -

@indiefinch said:

@icemo said:

I have only knowledge in LoL, but these tips should work in dota too. Five people following a bad call is better than half a team following a good call, since if your team does not work together you have a hard time winning fights. After the "laning phase" when your team starts to push together as a 5 man team, don't splitpush or wander off alone unless your hero has teleport or you are strong enough to win 1v1 against any of the enemy players.

I wouldn't really say that would be a good thing in Dota. Sure if your team is built with a really strong pushing lineup with Sylla, Lesh...etc then yeah sure. But sat you have a hard carry like Faceless Void, you are going to want to play a 4v5 style where you protect Void and allow him to farm. If you do have someone like Prophet, Tinker, or Lycan, then you are going to want to spread the field and force them to defend multiple locations. League is built around the teammfight, Dota can be if you play a specific hero lineup...but I would say most of the time you are waiting to get those big items / ganking. The big teamfight usually comes when one team is contesting Roshan.

@ajamafalous: I think the problem is that once you add a button to surrender, people will be really quick to use it. Dota allows for a lot more comebacks then League does just due to how the mechanics work. If you have a decent carry, you need to protect them to get that one big item. If you have the ability to split push, do that. Someone should be buying Smoke throughout the game to pick up kills. As soon as you are behind, start smoke ganking their jungle / lanes. Picking one guy off and all of yours getting out freely can really get you back into the game. My fear is that if they added a surrender button, people would stop doing these things. People already give up way way to early and call "gg" in chat when there is no reason to. Sure it is way easier to just surrender and start a new game, but I think that would become the default answer to every game. If you are losing that bad where there is no possible way to come back, there is a good chance the enemy is already taking your rax.

Just for the record, I come from a HoN/DotA background, not League. Concede works totally fine in HoN, too. In games that warrant a concede, split pushing/smoke ganking/waiting for your carry to get his next item aren't an option; that's why you want to concede in the first place. The game is out of reach. With the way the current NA/EU meta is and the way my group of friends and I have always played (because we played a ton of HoN, which is even more focused on ganking and hero kills than Dota is), we focus on winning lanes and ganking, not playing 4 protect 1 for 50 minutes. With our playstyle, games tend to snowball toward one team or another in a hurry, and be all but decided by 25-30 minutes. It isn't in any way fun to get crushed in every teamfight between 20 and 40 minutes but be forced to stay in the game because the other team would rather keep farming instead of pushing the ancient.

If our lane goes an unfortunate 1-5 against the enemy carry in the first 7 minutes, the other team is going to win that game if the carry is in any way competent. I'd rather not stick around for another 35 minutes just on the off-chance that he's not.

15 minute concede works fine in HoN. I'd make it 20 or 25 in Dota just because it's a slower game, but I think the notion that people are going to "stop playing Dota when they're playing Dota" if they add a concede is a little absurd.

#91 Edited by IndieFinch (242 posts) -

@ajamafalous: If they put a concede at 30 min, wouldn't the team that is so much ahead just already win? It would mostly effect the people who don't understand how the game works. They will have the attitude of "Oh I lost my lane" or "Oh we are down 10 kills...lets concede!"

The only way that I would be content with a concede option, is if it required 5 yes votes. Then if you are playing with a group of friends, you can actually all agree that the game is lost and concede. That sounds great. But it is when it goes down the path of only needing 3 votes, then it is easy for the guy and his buddy to lose their lane / not get the farm they wanted and both click yes that ruins the game for everyone.

#92 Posted by Optix12 (611 posts) -

Maybe Dota 2 needs to implement a ranked queue as well as a normal public queue, that way people can learn against other players in a more relaxed zone than what it is now.

And yea a surrender vote at 20-25 minutes could also be pretty good as well as the 5 minute leaver = everyone leaves for free system.
I havent played dota2 in a while but about 80% of my games had a russian guy so if he was a rager i couldnt read it and 65% of my games had one person disconnect for that 5 minute mark

#93 Posted by EternalHaV0C (66 posts) -

Does anyone know how they are going to do this? Are they going to make private games and invite people from chat? Anyone have any idea?

#94 Edited by MindOST (215 posts) -

@ajamafalous: If they put a concede at 30 min, wouldn't the team that is so much ahead just already win? It would mostly effect the people who don't understand how the game works. They will have the attitude of "Oh I lost my lane" or "Oh we are down 10 kills...lets concede!"

The only way that I would be content with a concede option, is if it required 5 yes votes. Then if you are playing with a group of friends, you can actually all agree that the game is lost and concede. That sounds great. But it is when it goes down the path of only needing 3 votes, then it is easy for the guy and his buddy to lose their lane / not get the farm they wanted and both click yes that ruins the game for everyone.

The League of Legends surrender vote is available at 20 minutes in and requires a 4/5 vote. Very rarely have I seen a successful surrender on a game where's there's still a realistic chance of victory.

#95 Edited by Cheesebob (1231 posts) -

I hope it turns out to be Brad S/Brad M/ Greg Kasavin and 1 other industry person versus Giant Bomb community. It would be sweeet!

@eternalhav0c: I would seriously hope that this is the case!

#96 Edited by ajamafalous (11850 posts) -

@mindost said:

@indiefinch said:

@ajamafalous: If they put a concede at 30 min, wouldn't the team that is so much ahead just already win? It would mostly effect the people who don't understand how the game works. They will have the attitude of "Oh I lost my lane" or "Oh we are down 10 kills...lets concede!"

The only way that I would be content with a concede option, is if it required 5 yes votes. Then if you are playing with a group of friends, you can actually all agree that the game is lost and concede. That sounds great. But it is when it goes down the path of only needing 3 votes, then it is easy for the guy and his buddy to lose their lane / not get the farm they wanted and both click yes that ruins the game for everyone.

The League of Legends surrender vote is available at 20 minutes in and requires a 4/5 vote. Very rarely have I seen a successful surrender on a game where's there's still a realistic chance of victory.

Just to add: HoN's concede is 5/5 at 15 minutes, and 4/5 at 25 minutes.

@indiefinch, I'm not sure what the first part of your post means. No, the team that's so far ahead wouldn't already win; that's the entire reason there needs to be a concede in the first place. Teams, more often than not, refuse to finish a game that they're dominating, instead opting to leave for their jungle and farm for another 10-15 minutes so that they can grief the well without actually making any attempt to kill the ancient and end the game. If there was a concede option, it would prevent the losing team from having to waste their time and suffer through this.

#97 Posted by YoungFrey (1321 posts) -

One way to shorten matches without a surrender is to incentivize ending quickly. As I understand it right now everyone gets points continually in the match. So the team that knows it's winning can milk that. But if there was a decaying bonus it would encourage ending things when possible. Although I can already see that it would also encourage a meta-game of playing teams focused on rushing.

#98 Posted by twigger89 (277 posts) -

@mindost said:

@indiefinch said:

@ajamafalous: If they put a concede at 30 min, wouldn't the team that is so much ahead just already win? It would mostly effect the people who don't understand how the game works. They will have the attitude of "Oh I lost my lane" or "Oh we are down 10 kills...lets concede!"

The only way that I would be content with a concede option, is if it required 5 yes votes. Then if you are playing with a group of friends, you can actually all agree that the game is lost and concede. That sounds great. But it is when it goes down the path of only needing 3 votes, then it is easy for the guy and his buddy to lose their lane / not get the farm they wanted and both click yes that ruins the game for everyone.

The League of Legends surrender vote is available at 20 minutes in and requires a 4/5 vote. Very rarely have I seen a successful surrender on a game where's there's still a realistic chance of victory.

That seems like a great way to do it. If 4 out of the 5 on a team think the game is past redemption, than let them go and play another game. We aren't talking about tourney games (which there are concedes, in fact most games end in a concede rather than a throne going down) or game for cash, we are talking about everyday normal matchmaking games that really don't matter. I want to be able to lose a game with the loss being dragged on. I don't want to be at the mercy of an enemy team as to whether or not I can leave now because they want to farm our jungle, or try to fountain camp. I just think at a certain point it's better for the game overall to risk losing that small percentage of crazy comeback wins so that the majority of losses don't feel like you are playing WW1 dota style.

#99 Posted by PoToSkull (104 posts) -

I know you are trying to be helpful in writing this, but this honestly come across has condescending. Its just a game yet you treat it like I have a personal reputation at stake. Reading this almost got me to not even bother with this game, but I am too curious to ignore it.

#100 Edited by MindOST (215 posts) -

@potoskull said:

I know you are trying to be helpful in writing this, but this honestly come across has condescending. Its just a game yet you treat it like I have a personal reputation at stake. Reading this almost got me to not even bother with this game, but I am too curious to ignore it.

Yeah, I feel like the Dota 2 community is the new Counter-Strike community in a lot of ways.