Kamitani responds to Kotaku criticism of the characters.

Wait, what? Are you people actively looking for sexism and homophobia now?

"By God, I want to be offended today, and I'll be damned if I don't find something to misconstrue."

IDIOTS! IDIOTS EVERYWHERE!

The problem is that they try to project it to the real world. Yes woman get groped on these conventions or treated badly and that surely needs to change. But they are groping them not because we have games like that. I don't grope woman just because I watch porn either... Also I would love to see more female leads in video games but I also don't want to miss all these games when woman are sexualized just as other media is sexualizing men as well. We are human beings and of course we are getting attracted and want to look at the gender we like and love.

And the most funny thing of all this is that not even woman complain about this but rather some "stupid" witheknight males or people who just want clicks. It is getting ridiculous.

No, it was definitely "you're gay". Which is a perfect response, because we know the Kotaku writer doesn't actually give a fuck about how women are portrayed. Who does? Nobody I ever met. I've met a lot of people who like to pretend to be offended though.

Oh, Japan.

Every time Gies open his mouth I literally facepalm.

I bought a Vita today so that I can play this when it comes out.

Fuck the haters.

If suggesting that one might enjoy looking at some burly , half-naked men in a homoerotic scenario is the equivalent of "u gay bro?" then what have Epic & Co been saying to us all these years?

Incidentally, is there something so wrong with being gay that it's a vile insult to even suggest it, jokingly? "Dude doesn't approve of sexy witch, perhaps he'd prefer sexy dwarf." I don't see how that suggests anything bad about gay people or the specific guy in question.

Obviously, I agree. Even about Kamitani's response, kind of a disappointing retort. A better retort would be to just put a giant burka on the sorceress. That way her modesty is protected from the vile male gaze.

And yeah, this art style is pretty obviously taking sexual dimorphism as far as it goes. Men are these giant block figures, nothing but brawn and beards. Personally I'd rather look like David Bowie, but that's not what they're going for (and that's not what I look like either).

Trying to blame Dragon's Crown, a game by an incredibly niche developer, as being responsible for women being assaulted or insulted at conventions is beyond the pale. There's a wide audience in this medium who seems to directly believe that life imitates art, rather than art imitating life. I speculate they're also the ones who believe that playing shooters results in a desire to shoot real people in the head, and that JRPGs often inspire people to go on quests to save the world and kill God. People mistreat women because they either don't understand or don't care about appropriate social mores, not because they saw a video game lady's giant boobs.

It's astonishing how a double standard can exist right in front of a games journalist's face and he still can't see it. They are learning something from their liberal arts degrees.

While we're at it, Christian Nutt over at Gamasutra basically sums up my feelings about this.

So what other factors contribute to you groping woman?

To sum it up:

1) Game contains art that buffs and beefs the fuck out of men and women

2) Wannabe games journo blogs about it making it a "omfg sexualization of women" piece

3) Game artist clarifies that it features men also, has something for everyone, but it's not translated properly

4) Polygon deserves more respect and admiration than Kotaku, when it comes to games journalism and news reporting

The writer assumes a negative intent on behalf of the developer, happily ignoring the comments below the post where the same guy endorses kotaku and (I think) hopes that the kotaku writer that he's referencing enjoys the game.

I feel that some Muramasa The Demon Blade artwork is needed in this thread to calm people down. You're welcome.

Man, if Dead or Alive Xtreme was released in 2013, the world would be in flames by now.

No, please, don't remind them. I like my DOA games...stay away femnazis.

I don't agree with the initial Kotaku article. The Amazon is the woman equivalent of the Dwarf, and they both lack a lot of clothing. Just because one is a man doesn't mean it should automatically be construed as a power fantasy, and not simply a stylistic choice. The Elf is a woman character as well, and she is fully dressed and not spilling out of her top. The sorceress is top-heavy, but so what? I know plenty of big-breasted women, does that make them somehow bad? So why can't we have buxom characters in games?

If people are offended by that, well, that's there prerogative, but they don't dictate what is offensive for everyone.

I got into a little bit of an argument with him over that.

First of all, I don't agree with the artist in this case, and I am not defending him. Calling someone gay as a joke is immature and can be offensive to gay people. That's because there isn't anything wrong with being gay. A straight person being called gay doesn't affect the straight person negatively, but it does kind of say that there is something wrong with being gay, if you're using it as your punchline.

However, the artist alluded to the Kotaku guy being gay. He never outright says it, and he definitely never says the word "fag." Trying to explain this to Arthur was futile, as his response was only, "i'm sorry, please plot out for me where on the gay slur spectrum this sits."

Would I call a gay person "gay?" Yes. Would I call a straight person "gay?" No, but not because I think it's offensive to the straight person, but because it can be offensive to a gay person, as if being gay is a bad thing.

As George Clooney said:

"I think it’s funny, but the last thing you’ll ever see me do is jump up and down saying 'These are lies!' That would be unfair and unkind to my good friends in the gay community.

"I’m not going to let anyone make it seem like being gay is a bad thing. My private life is private, and I’m very happy in it. Who does it hurt if someone thinks I’m gay? I’ll be long dead and there will still be people who say I was gay. I don’t give a shit."

Would I call a gay person "fag?" No. Because that is a slur.

"I like kotaku.

I will be glad if Mr. JASON SCHREIER is made pleasant with a DRAGON'S CROWN."?

Depends. You could read the posts by Kamitani as either a stereotypical (though maybe naive) symptom of Asian / Japanese submissiveness - maybe better put: "eager to please" -, or some sort of passive-agressive statement about Jason Schreier's inferred sexual preferences. Who knows?!

Unless someone digs up the original Japanese text before it was thrown through the shredder known as an auto-translator, and is sufficiently versed in Japanese with all of its nuances.

But you have to admit, hearing an opinion from someone other than a straight white male in the 15 to 25 demographic that makes up the majority of the internet is somewhat refreshing, isn't it?

Well, she is a Sorceress right? It's probably some illusion spell she cast on herself to try and distract her enemies by making her anatomy appear enlarged. You know, breastidigitation.

Agreed, I stopped reading articles from the turbo-privileged games journalist industry long ago. Too heterosexual male.

@sawtooth said:

Well done.

If anything that article shows my favorite comments anywhere are the unapproved Kotaku comments.

Agreed. I wasn't sure it could be pulled off, but the wording was satisfactory.

@icemael said:

The Kotaku response is dumb. Sexism in the gaming industry is completely irrelevant to the value of the games themselves. A game developer's only job is to make as enjoyable a game as possible, and a game critic's only job is to analyze the ways in which the developer has succeeded or failed at this. Moralization should never enter into the picture. The character designs may certainly be criticized: for instance, I myself am not that fond of the Sorceress' oversized breasts, but the problem I have with them is that they are ugly, not that "they perpetuate a boy's club mentality" and "boo-hoo some women feel uncomfortable going to events where there are booth babes" or whatever -- I mean what the fuck man, I thought we played games to have a good time and not to demonstrate to others how tolerant, sensitive, progressive and feminist we are.

The stupidity of the whole business becomes especially apparent if one imagines criticizing classical paintings in this way, particularly in their historical context. Take this Falero painting from 1878:

"An absolutely stunning work of art. The composition, the lighting, the attention to detail... everything is incredible. But on second thought, it's an image of hot nude women created by a man in a male-dominated industry, and women are really oppressed right now (they don't even have the right to vote!) so actually fuck this painting, one star out of five."

Or imagine applying these retarded standards to porn -- you could never watch a porno again! Or why not our fantasies! "This daydream I'm having about smoking hot nymphs who are into me is not equal enough, I am objectifying these poor imaginary women! I'd better start fantasizing about strong women in leadership positions instead."

If while trying to argue that something isn't misogynist you need to compare it to porn, you're doing it wrong.

Isn't it possible that he keeps being attached to this style of game for reasons that are not the ones he is criticizing? The "hyper-sexualization" of female characters may embarrass him, but he may very well keep on liking this style of game for other reasons. He wishes JRPGs were rid of stigmatizing imagery because he likes playing them, but does not care for social down-putting. I think it's an understandable perspective, even though I have no quarrel with it myself since I've hardly ever played those games.

@icemael: The difference between the game and the painting you shared is that nudity in that painting is used with artistic expression, whereas it seems to me that in the trailer the cleavage and unnaturally large breasts are solely there with the purpose to give straight male players erections - like many otaku-targeted businesses are wont to do. Maybe the cleavage and the revealing of the hip whilst bearing a vulnerable facial expression has a whole lot of artistic depth to it, and I'm entirely off-base here, but I'm inclined to think that is not the case.

Dragon's Crown isn't an RPG, though.

Women can enjoy porn as much as men can. Some enjoy watching it with their partner. There is even porn made by women for women. Porn is not inherently misogynistic.

Yeah, it can be kind of infuriating seeing people in their late teens, early twenties get their panties in a twist whenever someone dares imply that something might be wrong with the video games industry and culture. "It's just harmless entertainment", but when someone dares imply that "games can't be art", the pitchforks are pulled out of the closet and video games turn into serious business. Double standards much? Jesus Christ, it's a beautiful and terrible world out there, stop limiting yourself to those dark, dark cellars and bridges you hide under.

And oh, the pettiness of it all! No one forgets the smallest slight, but there's a complete lack of historical perspective! To paraphrase Bill Clinton: "It's the historical and social context, stupid!"!

Steve Gaynor just retweeted this, Christian Nutt's take on this rebuttal. Just it was the first part of this story I was made aware of and it seems relevant to those dismissing it as harmless joking.

@hailinel: I'm not familiar with the game. I'm fairly sure that's how the Kotaku guy referred to it in the "reply" article. In any case, that doesn't seem relevant to my argument.

This has nothing to do with my post. Okay, I was obviously being sarcastic, but that's no excuse.

You're conflating 'video games are art' and the backlash toward social justice warrior activities on gaming websites. Stop that. That's nowhere near as on-point as calling out the bigotry against x race, or x gender, when those being held on a pedestal are the hated x race and x gender. If this is your defense, it's not very convincing.

Fascinating summary! I don't really care if porn is INHERENTLY misogynist. My point is I would think we would expect games, something we're clearly pretty invested in here and hold in high regard, to be far enough away on the scale from porn that it isn't one of the first comparisons that comes to your head.

What? How does Epic have anything to do with this? Yes, games like Gears of War features burly men but it never says to the player "hey man you don't like ladies, right? you like these dudes don't you? I bet you do." I don't see how it's at all relevant.

And yes, gay is used as an insult all the time. I don't think I have to explain this. It's not right but it happens. And it happened right here.

I can't believe people on the internet still use this word. Do you even know who coined that dumb shit?

@evanbower said:

Misogyny means hatred of women, which has been brought up at no point by anyone. And I haven't argued that the designs aren't sexist, which I think is the word you want to use -- I said that the question of whether they are sexist or not shouldn't even come up, since it isn't relevant to the design or criticism of games.

It was "used with artistic expression"? What does that even mean? Wherein lies this "artistic expression" that is present in Falero's painting of hot naked women but not in the Vanillaware art? Are you implying that the reason Falero and all the other classical painters painted so many hot naked women isn't simply that that's nice to look at? And if that's the case, why have hot naked women been such popular painting material throughout the ages? Is there something about naked women that's just more "artistically expressive" than other stuff?

the kotaku article was stupid; the wording that is, not the intent (which was that the art is kinda fucking extreme). but man that response sucks. Like come on, @brodehouse suggestion would've been perfect (or just like, draw a garbage bag over her or something), but come on, now you're insulting a potential audience (I'm also pretty sure gay dudes don't give a shit about how big breasted the ladies are either) and being an asshole about it.

I will never understand how people find the Sorceress offensive but are okay with something like Skullgirls. Anyway, Jason looked really bad in the first article, and claiming he had some sort of noble intent this whole time is something I'm just going to shrug off. Kamitani's response comes across just as juvenile if interpreted as a 'gay joke'.

This is well designed and really fucking hot character. If it wasn't, then no one would be talking about it because big breasted lady characters are all over the place, but they are rarely artistically rendered so well.

It's relevant because people are assuming that the post is a supposed to be a pointed comment about someone's sexuality rather than a play on the established perspective that the Japanese find our obsession with burly, oily, half-naked male protagonists to be just as odd and uncomfortable as the west finds the Japanese preference for cartoonish half-naked female characters and their pretty, girlish male counterparts.

I'm a straight white male living in the west.

Those badass dwarves make me want to play this game way more than the sexy sorceress.

Localised society. It's a thing.

@rebgav: other than gears of war I'm not sure what exactly the burly, oily male protagonists you're referring to (and the other ones I think of, at least most of them are semi realistic).

I feel that the painting you posted is doing more than just trying to give boners to its appreciators. The nudity is being used, in my view, both to represent the purity of the angels and the corruption of the demons. There are old, unattractive and deformed people attacking young, attractive, pure ones. I don't claim to have a large understanding of the painting, I don't recall ever having seen it before. In the trailer however, there is a lady with unrealistically large breasts and a ridiculous cleavage, who unnecessarily exposes her thighs and bears vulnerable expressions even while attacking foes. At least that's how I remember it, I haven't rewatched it.

One seems to be a work of art, the other a portrayal of the subject of an adolescent power fantasy. In the painting nudity is used to an end other than sexual pleasure, in the game not so much.

And yes, the naked body of an attractive woman has been protrayed by several artists throughout the ages due to its beauty. And yes it is more "expressive" than a jar. I don't understand that question.

It's a multiplayer fantasy-themed beat'em up. It has more in common with Castle Crashers than any RPG.

well- that's certainly debatable. i'd agree that it's a visually appealing game- but that has more to do with the color palette, hand-animation and the line work than the character design. i mean lets be real: the sorceress is a pair of (independently animated) tits and legs with a halloween witch attached. and i have a strong hunch that this little spat between kotaku and the dev has garnered more awareness of the game than the 'fucking hot character[s].' i mean, there's plenty of hentai out there if people are looking for eastern-style-animated-oversized boobs.

@animasta: You're right, my mistake. Gears is the only game with buff, shiny manly-man protagonists. Ma dang.

They usually just spout nonsense and then tell me to check my privilege.

if you don't want to argue my points you could just, like, ignore my post you know?

no need to be snide.

My point was that the shit in this is unrealistic, and the only other game I can think of with burly ass dudes that is also unrealistic is gears of war.

but they also have burly ass women too (or the one) so gears is still better.

@animasta: Are you aware that the people in Gears of War aren't Humans, and are in fact Serans?

Even the women are giant.

And of course it's unrealistic, it's fantasy, and a video game.

Most of our (humanity) soldiers are pretty buff, makes sense for their profession. In gears really only the cogs are of the ridiculous variety, the stranded are a lot smaller, yet still bigger than humans.

OH GOD THIS THREAD I AM CLAWING MY EYES OUT

If I had infinity dollars I would go out and preorder 1,000 copies of this game right now and have them shipped to Giantbomb.