Kamitani responds to Kotaku criticism of the characters.

You really have no idea about the society in Japan.... Females are very Liberal in Japan and as for representation in Media you maybe have the widest level of different Female characters in the whole world. With every weak moe or even sexist female character you at least have one very strong female char. Also the most sexualized characters in Japan do not have big breasts. There are more lolita/childlike

Maybe western people should the fuck grow up and try to accept that women have breasts and grow the fuck up. I really never understood how every form of violence is totally fine but everything nude or sex related is a big taboo there.

@ervonymous said:

I have no idea why its such a big deal in Dragon Crown when Muramasa and Odin Sphere had the following, neither of which took away from the visual spectacle of both games.

@turambar said:

@ervonymous said:

I weep for the swaying wheat fields of Muramasa and the unit designs of GrimGrimoire that get overshadowed by some witch's tits.

I have no idea why its such a big deal in Dragon Crown when Muramasa and Odin Sphere had the following, neither of which took away from the visual spectacle of both games.

Different Times. That was all before the stupid times we have to face now.

@darji said:

@turambar said:

@ervonymous said:

I weep for the swaying wheat fields of Muramasa and the unit designs of GrimGrimoire that get overshadowed by some witch's tits.

I have no idea why its such a big deal in Dragon Crown when Muramasa and Odin Sphere had the following, neither of which took away from the visual spectacle of both games.

Different Times. That was all before the stupid times we have to face now.

Actually, a remake of Muramasa is being released in the U.S. before Dragon's Crown gets here. You don't hear anyone going apeshit about the characters in that.

@turambar said:

@ervonymous said:

I weep for the swaying wheat fields of Muramasa and the unit designs of GrimGrimoire that get overshadowed by some witch's tits.

I have no idea why its such a big deal in Dragon Crown when Muramasa and Odin Sphere had the following, neither of which took away from the visual spectacle of both games.

And here's the stationary Sorcery turret from GrimGrimoire but I was preoccupied with the Chimera silently breathing in a dark corner of the map, the loose skin on its face retracting with every breath.

That was a pretty good burn. But to be fair, the character designs in Dragon's Crown are pretty dumb when compared to the characters from their previous works, especially Muramasa.

I don't care, I fucking hate you all.

The "acceptance that women have breasts" isn't the issue, particularly considering some of the most scorching criticism of Japan's ass-backwards portrayal of female sexuality, is coming from FEMALES. One can accept that fact, without portraying women as coquettish and doe-eyed, with boobs that look like they were drawn by a teenager, and wearing outfits that look like they belong in a strip club.

But yes, thanks for reminding me that they are also big on the pervy, oversexualized "childlike" females, too. And the hubris is takes to tell someone to grow up for NOT accepting this kind of characterization of women? Man oh man.

Too be fair, Jason started out by calling him a 14 year old boy.

As I said before they have a wide selection of female representation. They have weak, strong, liberal, sexy, ugly, fat, thin, old, young characters. That is why it is totally ok or even great. In media like books, movies, music or games we should have every sort of representation and that should go for men and women. And yes that is also including pervy and over sexualized characters.

You say this isn't the type of game to defend with art history, but as someone with a background in art history allow me to again reiterate the point in this thread that the depiction of female nudes (or women in any manner of undress) through the majority of art history has been for titillation.

People saying his work is without merit or has no place in video games or whatever else people are saying should remember how popular his style was in past Vanillaware game. Where was the outrage then?

@turambar: well their artists didn't take the Kotaku bait for one AFAIK.

If Kamitani never posted the 3 Dwarf picture in response, most of this likely would have never happened. That's what turned a typical Kotaku snark into an internet rage.

The proper thing to do with just about any Kotaku article is to ignore it.

@scotto: I have been coming to this website for more than three years because I love the community here. You have single-handedly manage to both disgust and saddens me. I don't think you mean what you wrote or realize what it is you are saying. That was the most offensive post about another culture I have ever read on this website. You have taught me to stay off the board entirely.

A lesson well learned, Thank you for that lesson.

P.S I really wish you take the time to learn about our culture better before writing that, it is a shame.

Oh give me a break. I haven't said anything about Japanese culture at large (aside from saying it's parochial, which many western cultures also still are, more than they'd care to admit). I've criticized one aspect of their culture - that being their portrayal of women in gaming.

If I criticized America's cultural obsession with violence, I suspect I wouldn't get a similarly weepy post about how offensive I was. There are plenty of things I love about Japanese culture; their portrayal of women in video games is not one of them. I'd be embarrassed to have this game on my television, with anyone over 13 in the room. We need to move beyond such juvenile, puerile portrayals of women as lamp posts with a couple of giant balloons stapled to them. And that goes just as much for the non-Japanese developers who still do this.

Actually, I will add one more thing, which is that if it appeared as though I was criticizing more than the portrayal of women in Japanese gaming, that was not my intent.

@mrsignerman44 said:

That was a pretty good burn. But to be fair, the character designs in Dragon's Crown are pretty dumb when compared to the characters from their previous works, especially Muramasa.

Check out the artwork for the NPCs in both Muramasa and Odin Sphere. Kamitami has been wholly consistent in his use of overly exaggerated character designs.

@turambar said:

@ervonymous said:

I weep for the swaying wheat fields of Muramasa and the unit designs of GrimGrimoire that get overshadowed by some witch's tits.

I have no idea why its such a big deal in Dragon Crown when Muramasa and Odin Sphere had the following, neither of which took away from the visual spectacle of both games.

Ah, I forgot about the spirits. Point taken, but I feel like adapting those exaggerated characteristics to the main protagonist instead of a few npc's just makes it feel dumb.

titillation is one thing, and i'd certainly agree with you there- i on the other hand was referring to the 'fertility goddess' commentary earlier.

the boobs are there to grab attention, there's no denying that.

But why is that a bad thing?

@mrsignerman44 said:

@turambar said:

@ervonymous said:

I weep for the swaying wheat fields of Muramasa and the unit designs of GrimGrimoire that get overshadowed by some witch's tits.

I have no idea why its such a big deal in Dragon Crown when Muramasa and Odin Sphere had the following, neither of which took away from the visual spectacle of both games.

Ah, I forgot about the spirits. Point taken, but I feel like adapting those exaggerated characteristics to the main protagonist instead of a few npc's just makes it feel dumb.

The sorceress isn't the "main protagonist." She's one of several different playable characters to choose from.

i never said it was bad. i said it was juvenile and pubescent. there's a distinction. i think tits are great, for the record.

There's no reason to stay off a forum because of one rude and insensitive person, or even several rude and insensitive people. Just ignore posts like that, and instead reply to the polite and constructive discussion around them.

@hailinel said:

@mrsignerman44 said:

@turambar said:

@ervonymous said:

I weep for the swaying wheat fields of Muramasa and the unit designs of GrimGrimoire that get overshadowed by some witch's tits.

I have no idea why its such a big deal in Dragon Crown when Muramasa and Odin Sphere had the following, neither of which took away from the visual spectacle of both games.

Ah, I forgot about the spirits. Point taken, but I feel like adapting those exaggerated characteristics to the main protagonist instead of a few npc's just makes it feel dumb.

The sorceress isn't the "main protagonist." She's one of several different playable characters to choose from.

I think you're splitting hairs for the sake of argument...Momohime was one of 4 playable characters( in the newest version) but I'd still consider her one of the main protagonists. Anyway, the point is that playing as a weirdly proportioned character is a lot different then just skipping past one in a cutscene. This also applies to the amazon, I really dislike her character design but that's just opinion at this point. Oh well, at least the elf looks nice and well proportioned.

NO. We need to widen them. We should not abolish sterotype or over sexualized characters just because you are "embrassed" about that. And in Japan you can exactly find that. And again this goes for men and women in japanese media. So what if some people get offended by it? They will not die because of it or?

@mrsignerman44 said:

@hailinel said:

@mrsignerman44 said:

@turambar said:

@ervonymous said:

I weep for the swaying wheat fields of Muramasa and the unit designs of GrimGrimoire that get overshadowed by some witch's tits.

I have no idea why its such a big deal in Dragon Crown when Muramasa and Odin Sphere had the following, neither of which took away from the visual spectacle of both games.

Ah, I forgot about the spirits. Point taken, but I feel like adapting those exaggerated characteristics to the main protagonist instead of a few npc's just makes it feel dumb.

The sorceress isn't the "main protagonist." She's one of several different playable characters to choose from.

I think you're splitting hairs for the sake of argument...Momohime was one of 4 playable characters( in the newest version) but I'd still consider her one of the main protagonists. Anyway, the point is that playing as a weirdly proportioned character is a lot different then just skipping past one in a cutscene. This also applies to the amazon, I really dislike her character design but that's just opinion at this point. Oh well, at least the elf looks nice and well proportioned.

Funny how you don't say anything about the male characters, considering that most of them are just as equally outlandish in their proportions.

@hailinel said:

@mrsignerman44 said:

@hailinel said:

@mrsignerman44 said:

@turambar said:

@ervonymous said:

I weep for the swaying wheat fields of Muramasa and the unit designs of GrimGrimoire that get overshadowed by some witch's tits.

I have no idea why its such a big deal in Dragon Crown when Muramasa and Odin Sphere had the following, neither of which took away from the visual spectacle of both games.

Ah, I forgot about the spirits. Point taken, but I feel like adapting those exaggerated characteristics to the main protagonist instead of a few npc's just makes it feel dumb.

The sorceress isn't the "main protagonist." She's one of several different playable characters to choose from.

I think you're splitting hairs for the sake of argument...Momohime was one of 4 playable characters( in the newest version) but I'd still consider her one of the main protagonists. Anyway, the point is that playing as a weirdly proportioned character is a lot different then just skipping past one in a cutscene. This also applies to the amazon, I really dislike her character design but that's just opinion at this point. Oh well, at least the elf looks nice and well proportioned.

Funny how you don't say anything about the male characters, considering that most of them are just as equally outlandish in their proportions.

Probably because they aren't the issue here, why are you trying to turn it into a gender based argument? But while we're on the subject of the male characters, yes the dwarf and fighter's proportions are god awful but not as glaringly so in the fighters case since he's covered in armor and the dwarf and amazon are on par for bad character design in my opinion.

If you actually read what I wrote down instead of jumping the gun, you would've read that my main issue with the characters is their designs, save for the elf and the wizard. I really miss how well constructed the character designs were for the protagonists in Muramasa. Sure some exaggerated characters were present then too, but they were solely npc's and you didn't have to play as one of them for the entirety of the game, feeling kind of dumb as you walk around with your tits and/or muscles bulging out of your body. There, I divided the characters into gender just for you.

@mrsignerman44: I'm not. But if the issue is weirdly proportioned characters, then you should be looking at the whole cast; not just a selection of them.

@hailinel: Which I just did, but it seemed extraneous at the time since only the sorceress was relevant to the conversation.

Not liking the design or art style is totally reasonable. I do not like it either. But the whole controversy about this character is just ridiculous.

@Darji Oh yes, I definitely think that the article blew everything out of proportion but I can see where some of the negativity surrounding the character(s) can stem from is what I'm saying.

I'm more interested in the fact that this game is still on the way, i feel like it was announced years ago.

It's worth noting the game also contains more normally shaped female designs, it may have some sexy characters, but it's not entirely sexist.

@cikame: The funny thing is that the game was announced years ago. It was first shown at E3 2011 where it directly showed the entire cast, their promotional art and them in motion filled with the Sorceresses over the top breast jiggling as she walks.

In fact here's the trailer: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a_g7lUliQU[/url]

Since then the games been consistently shown at many major Gaming Conventions/Events all showing more of the Sorceress and her extensive levels of animation and now 2 years since the games been announced, now is the time to suddenly get all upset about it? It's baffling to me as to why suddenly now everyone cares so much when the game was shown exactly in this state for years now and no one batted an eye.

But it's probably as someone else remarked; it was a slow news day and sexism in gaming is now a hot topic, so a writer on Kotaku just decided to jump on the bandwagon, using Dragon's Crowns as the crux to get that point across. His intentions were in the right place and there is a problem with gender equality in gaming, but I just don't like the throwing of Dragon's Crown under the bus and the insulting of its artist in order to push that point across. It's perfectly fine if you don't like it or are turned off by some of the design choices, but by some of the way people talk about Dragons Crown they make it seem like its the prime example of everything that is wrong with the games industry today when that's not even close or fair at all.

I think the outlandish, exaggerated character designs are kind of cool. Then again, I'm a rational human being with actual, real-life concerns that tend to overshadow this kind of internet sensationalist bullshit that has absolutely no effect on my world.

...

*shrug*

Because it's trendy now. It's the same reason Saints Row 3 was loved by critics even though it said the word ho 50 times and also had missions like "The Ho Boat", but a year later, the new God of War game had a trophy that said ho and had to be changed immediately because I have never been offended by such misogyny in my life, you disgusting monsters.

The sorceress looks pretty cute! No idea what's going on with the amazon though... There's a lot of roid rage at the way the females are being presented but isn't it a problem for the guys when they are shown as pretty or with really broad shoulders and muscles and stuff? Or because gaming is still dominated by males does it not matter how they are presented because there's less chance of women beginning to objectify men and develop unrealistic ideals of what a man should look like to be a man? Maybe the future of gaming depends upon paper body and head bags so that no one can see the characters and people will begin to appreciate each other for their personality alone!! ... Nah. Unless the paper bags are fully customizable!