#1 Edited by kishinfoulux (2508 posts) -

http://www.destructoid.com/review-dragon-s-crown-256505.phtml

http://www.polygon.com/game/dragon-s-crown/9102

http://www.gameinformer.com/games/dragons_crown/b/ps3/archive/2013/07/31/a-massive-adventure-fueled-by-nostalgia.aspx

http://venturebeat.com/2013/07/31/dragons-crown-review/#2hpBXFK7msQLCL4V.02

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/07/31/dragons-crown-review/?a_dgi=aolshare_twitter

Don't think it was a wise choice to assign someone who isn't a fan of the art style, in regards to the Polygon review. Seemed like a poor choice of a person to have review the game, but whatever. Also cool to see ENB review it as well. Always love his stuff.

#2 Edited by joshwent (2351 posts) -

Well, the way you phrased that sentence sure does. It just sounds like you think she's a bad reviewer because she's a woman. But I get your point.

It does sound like maybe her dislike of the character designs factored a bit too much in her score considering she seems to have liked a whole bunch of other stuff, but reviews are ultimately about the individual's experience, so she's just being honest which is great. I'm sure many others can learn from her review if they share her POV.

I think those designs are just distracting, personally, from what seems like an otherwise great game. Excited to hear that it actually is!

#3 Posted by Ravelle (1404 posts) -

You can't base a score because of woman being sexualized, if that were the case every score of a game with beefcakes in them should also be reconsidered.

#4 Edited by kishinfoulux (2508 posts) -

@joshwent said:

Well, the way you phrased that sentence sure does. It just sounds like you think she's a bad reviewer because she's a woman. But I get your point.

It does sound like maybe her dislike of the character designs factored a bit too much in her score considering she seems to have liked a whole bunch of other stuff, but reviews are ultimately about the individual's experience, so she's just being honest which is great. I'm sure many others can learn from her review if they share her POV.

I think those designs are just distracting, personally, from what seems like an otherwise great game. Excited to hear that it actually is!

I'm sure I'll get flamed but that's not my intention. I think it's more she obviously had a problem with the art style from the get go so why assign her as the reviewer? Seems odd to me. I'm not saying she's not allowed to have an issue with it, for the record. Sounds like she mostly liked the game, so to dock the game THAT many points for the art style seems absurd to me.

#5 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@ravelle said:

You can't base a score because of woman being sexualized, if that were the case every score of a game with beefcakes in them should also be reconsidered.

Yeah agree. Polygon is a real joke. Other scores are basically 8 and 9s so it is getting great scores all over the place^^

#6 Posted by Krullban (1062 posts) -

So basically according to polygon the game sucks completely because the reviewer didn't like the art style?

Sigh.

#7 Edited by csl316 (9432 posts) -

Sounds good to me. Nice to see the Destructoid review just talk about the damn game.

#8 Edited by PrimalHorse (75 posts) -

Yeah her review seemed fair, I mean you can't deny there are boobs on show, but people will reside in their camps, I think those who appreciate the style as the artist intended will appreciate the unique vanillaware style and attention to detail, others will be offended. I'm not sure yet, I love conan and I can see early art parities so maybe I like it? It kinda made me laugh, it really does seem like a crazy cliche teenage boy's fantasy in the 90's, I don't know if its gross or kind of amazingly dumb, both sides have valid points. Crucially though I think this game is a very base mechanic driven experience, if it works as a game then it will do well, the divisive discussion has definitely helped to bring it to the spotlight either way.

#9 Posted by OllyOxenFree (4985 posts) -

lol polygon.

Justin McElroy get out of there!!!

#10 Posted by JasonR86 (9724 posts) -

@kishinfoulux:

That was a terrible first line to your post dude.

#11 Posted by kishinfoulux (2508 posts) -

I don't want this to become a "flame Polygon" thing. I love their site. Just think it was an odd reviewer choice. I asked Arthur about it on Twitter and he said she approached it with an open mind, but I think seeing as she's a bit of a feminist that's hard to do.

I don't agree with it, but hey it's her opinion. No biggie.

#12 Posted by joshwent (2351 posts) -

It does to me too, but I understand it. Let's forget it's about boobs or whatever, and just think that it's "objectionable material". The game is totally filled with something the reviewer is kind of offended by, and that would drastically hurt anyone's view of the game overall if they share the reviewer's views.

So, while I disagree with what she's offended by, the fact that she does take offense is more than enough good reason to dock a game some points. Let's say Portal 2 (which I consider to be pretty flawless) had a flashing sign that would pop up saying "jews cause all wars!". I'd have to say, "Hey, maybe don't play this game 'cause it's great but totally offensive." This is obviously not as bad as that, but really, a 6.5/10 is not that bad of a score for "objectionable material".

(also, it does seem pretty repetitive and has other real faults. we're not talking about an absolutely flawless game that's being bashed cuz bewbs)

#13 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

I don't want this to become a "flame Polygon" thing. I love their site. Just think it was an odd reviewer choice. I asked Arthur about it on Twitter and he said she approached it with an open mind, but I think seeing as she's a bit of a feminist that's hard to do.

I don't agree with it, but hey it's her opinion. No biggie.

It is a biggie if she tries to force her opinion onto the review score.

#14 Posted by JasonR86 (9724 posts) -

@darji:

A review score reflects one's opinion. They can not be separated.

#15 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

@darji:

A review score reflects one's opinion. They can not be separated.

Ok then lets better say your Agenda.

But I found its over-exaggerated art style alienating and gross in its depiction of women even as it shines in building a world of fantastic monsters and environments, and the forced grind through the same stages dulled my excitement.

This should be a NO for reviewers. Luckily these are the only ones that trying to push their agenda into the score.

#16 Edited by kishinfoulux (2508 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

@kishinfoulux:

That was a terrible first line to your post dude.

I just edited it. Wasn't my intention again, but I can see how it reads pretty bad. Also 28 minutes may be long for some people, but again I encourage them to check out ENB's review. Always goes into great depth and detail, and goes through all the classes one by one.

#17 Edited by Milkman (17312 posts) -

@krullban: @darji: She makes more criticisms than the art style. She talks a lot about how the combat feels like a grind and gets extremely repetitive.

#18 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@milkman: The main complain she does it complaining about the sexualisation of female characters in this game and she does it quite a few times and even has a huge comment box for that as well.

#19 Posted by Milkman (17312 posts) -

@darji: It's a perfectly valid criticism. There's nothing wrong with her complaining about it. But she also makes a pretty big point to talk about how repetitive the combat is.

#20 Posted by AlexanderSheen (5090 posts) -

@milkman said:

@krullban: @darji: She makes more criticisms than the art style. She talks a lot about how the combats feels like a grind and gets extremely repetitive.

Sounds like a beat 'em up game.

#21 Posted by joshwent (2351 posts) -

@darji said:

It is a biggie if she tries to force her opinion onto the review score.

You say "the review score" as if it's not her own. Um... it is. And she's coming from a POV that is shared by many people who'll be able to gauge their enjoyment of the game by what she wrote. I don't share her POV, so I'll disregard her review. No harm done.

#22 Edited by cannonballBAM (609 posts) -

@kishinfoulux: I don't see eye to eye with your argument about Danielle Riendeau from Polygon, these are a few of her reviews I found:

  • Dragons Crown-6.5
  • Deus Ex: The Fall-7.5
  • Deadpool-7
  • Don't Starve-8.5
  • The Night of the Rabbit-8
  • Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D-9
  • Mario and Donkey Kong: Minis on the Move-9
  • Poker Night 2-6.5
  • Monaco:What's yours in mine-7
  • Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner: Soul Hackers-7.5
  • Alien Spidy-6
  • BattleBlock Theater-8.5
  • Anodyne-8

I believe she doesn't seem that biased. It could just be a fundamentally underwhelming game with a unique art style. Either way, if you enjoy it then do so by all means.

#23 Posted by rebgav (1429 posts) -

At the risk of sounding sexist, I'm not surprised at all by the Polygon score

WAIT - where is SimCity at now? 7, 8?

Anyway, good to see that the game turned out well. EpicNameBro's review was probably the most useful of the lot too.

#24 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@milkman said:

@darji: It's a perfectly valid criticism. There's nothing wrong with her complaining about it. But she also makes a pretty big point to talk about how repetitive the combat is.

Yeah for such a game it is totally a negative point. I am sorry but the main reason for the lowest score this game got is because of her Agenda. And there is nothing more to talk about.

#25 Posted by McGhee (6075 posts) -

The worst thing about that Polygon review is her constant use of the first person. It is a horrible read.

#26 Posted by TheHT (11777 posts) -

@darji said:

@jasonr86 said:

@darji:

A review score reflects one's opinion. They can not be separated.

Ok then lets better say your Agenda.

But I found its over-exaggerated art style alienating and gross in its depiction of women even as it shines in building a world of fantastic monsters and environments, and the forced grind through the same stages dulled my excitement.

This should be a NO for reviewers. Luckily these are the only ones that trying to push their agenda into the score.

She doesn't like the games depiction of women so she must have an agenda?

#27 Posted by Milkman (17312 posts) -

@darji: What exactly do you think her "Agenda" is?

#28 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@milkman said:

@darji: What exactly do you think her "Agenda" is?

She has the same Agenda Anita has. She is a sex negative feminist. But again lets rather talk about the game instead of this one shitty review. It does not deserve any more attention.

#29 Posted by Animasta (14719 posts) -

@darji said:

@milkman said:

@darji: It's a perfectly valid criticism. There's nothing wrong with her complaining about it. But she also makes a pretty big point to talk about how repetitive the combat is.

YEah for such a game it is totally a negative point. I am sorry but the main reason for the lowest score this game got is because of her Agenda. And there is nothing more to talk about.

so the fact that she straight up said the combat was mad grindy doesn't matter? I mean, combat is kind of an important part of the game (I would assume).
but of course anyone who dislikes the game is a feminist cunt and she has an AGENDA

#30 Posted by Milkman (17312 posts) -

@darji: No, let's talk about this some more. Do you think that anyone that doesn't like Dragon's Crown art style is a "sex negative feminist?" It seems like a lot to assume about someone just because they don't enjoy the abnormally large tits in a video game.

#31 Posted by RecSpec (3926 posts) -

A review is someone's opinion, so I have no problem with Polygon's score. But for some reason I can't help but think that the review was assigned to that reviewer just to get that kind of response.

#32 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@animasta said:

@darji said:

@milkman said:

@darji: It's a perfectly valid criticism. There's nothing wrong with her complaining about it. But she also makes a pretty big point to talk about how repetitive the combat is.

YEah for such a game it is totally a negative point. I am sorry but the main reason for the lowest score this game got is because of her Agenda. And there is nothing more to talk about.

so the fact that she straight up said the combat was mad grindy doesn't matter? I mean, combat is kind of an important part of the game (I would assume).

but of course anyone who dislikes the game is a feminist cunt and she has an AGENDA

It is an 20 hour per character RPG like Action game in the style of a Golden Axe. Of course you will have to fight a lot of the same enemies. But that is the case in every RPG like game.

#33 Posted by jimmyfenix (3859 posts) -

Joystick gave it 4.5/5 still waiting on Videogames.com`s Review.

Nothing can beat the simcity fiasco at polygon

#34 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@ravelle said:

You can't base a score because of woman being sexualized

Yea, you can. Otherwise, Beat Em & Eat Em wouldn't have nearly the bad reputation it does. Of course, the argument has to be made here that the sexualization of a woman affects the game's quality.

#35 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@milkman: No. You can like the art style or not. But this is not liking or hating it but rather judging it based on her own view. Honestly I am not that found of this art style as well but not because I think it harms women or shows women in a very sexist manner I just don't like the art style.

If you are uncomfortable with this kind of game just do not review it than rather review it based on your agenda.

Also she points out that she is quite fond of the art style but not how women are represented.

#36 Posted by kishinfoulux (2508 posts) -

Joystick gave it 4.5/5 still waiting on Videogames.com`s Review.

Nothing can beat the simcity fiasco at polygon

Just added the link to the OP. I'm sure I'm missing more, but whatever.

@milkman said:

@darji: No, let's talk about this some more. Do you think that anyone that doesn't like Dragon's Crown art style is a "sex negative feminist?" It seems like a lot to assume about someone just because they don't enjoy the abnormally large tits in a video game.

I don't think her personal opinions on the art style belong in a review. If she wants to do an editorial about it, by all means. Also she is pretty much a feminist if you follow her on Twitter.

#37 Posted by BretF (27 posts) -

@milkman said:

@krullban: @darji: She makes more criticisms than the art style. She talks a lot about how the combats feels like a grind and gets extremely repetitive.

Sounds like a beat 'em up game.

Exactly. Unless you go the Scott Pilgrim route of buying skills, or a whole new system of skills that set the world on fire a beat em up will never score very highly except for a few outlets. Plus the recent publicity about art style ( which I happen to love , though I can understand if people have problems with the size of the boobs) is another knock against it for some people. The 9.5 from Destructoid really surprised me since I thought no one would rate the game higher than a 8.

#38 Edited by Benny (1955 posts) -

Some of the 'opinions' in this thread seem waaaaaaaay more offensive than anything in the actual game.

#39 Posted by Ravelle (1404 posts) -
@recspec said:

A review is someone's opinion, so I have no problem with Polygon's score. But for some reason I can't help but think that the review was assigned to that reviewer just to get that kind of response.

Yes, but Polygon already had a messy reputation with reviews as of late and this " a women reviewed a game and didn't like woman being sexed up" sure adds to that.

#40 Posted by TheHT (11777 posts) -

@jimmyfenix said:

Joystick gave it 4.5/5 still waiting on Videogames.com`s Review.

Nothing can beat the simcity fiasco at polygon

Just added the link to the OP. I'm sure I'm missing more, but whatever.

@milkman said:

@darji: No, let's talk about this some more. Do you think that anyone that doesn't like Dragon's Crown art style is a "sex negative feminist?" It seems like a lot to assume about someone just because they don't enjoy the abnormally large tits in a video game.

I don't think her personal opinions on the art style belong in a review. If she wants to do an editorial about it, by all means. Also she is pretty much a feminist if you follow her on Twitter.

The art style is a part of the game. The games depiction of women is a part of the game. Why don't criticisms of them belong in a review of the whole game?

#41 Posted by JasonR86 (9724 posts) -

@ravelle:

You can base a score on whatever you want. A review is buying advice based on an opinion. There's not a science to it.

#42 Edited by RecSpec (3926 posts) -

@benny: That's weird. I mean, good on him for telling people to back off, but still. The fact that PR is commenting on reviews bothers me.

Edit: I should add that the way I found out about the comment was Polygon calling it "The best comment" on twitter

#43 Edited by joshwent (2351 posts) -

Alrighty, this discussion needs to be taken to a stupid extreme. Let's imagine that in Super Mario World, they're the same looking Italian Plumbers, but for whatever reason they're obviously in black face. Everything else about the game is the same.

It's completely valid to take some points off of a review for that game because you find the design of those characters offensive. The gameplay, controls, and everything are top notch, but it's kinda hard to stare at a dude in blackface the whole time, so it negatively effects your experience playing the game. Thus making the game worse in its entirely.

That's the same experience that reviewer had; the game was pretty fun, sorta grindy, and it made her uncomfortable, so she's completely entitled to her score. No "agenda", it was just her reaction based on her views.

Mama mia!

#44 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7099 posts) -

@jimmyfenix said:

Joystick gave it 4.5/5 still waiting on Videogames.com`s Review.

Nothing can beat the simcity fiasco at polygon

Just added the link to the OP. I'm sure I'm missing more, but whatever.

@milkman said:

@darji: No, let's talk about this some more. Do you think that anyone that doesn't like Dragon's Crown art style is a "sex negative feminist?" It seems like a lot to assume about someone just because they don't enjoy the abnormally large tits in a video game.

I don't think her personal opinions on the art style belong in a review. If she wants to do an editorial about it, by all means. Also she is pretty much a feminist if you follow her on Twitter.

They absolutely do. The look of the game is part of the game, yes? Then it deserves to be mentioned. And ignoring all of her other points of criticism because "WELL SHE'S CLEARLY JUST GOT A AGENDA." is foolish. Whether or not you find something offensive is absolutely relevent to the review. If that Shadow Warrior remake comes out and it's as blatantly racist as the original (with enemy names like Coolie, an extremely offensive name for an Asian slave.) I would hope that something like that is reflected in reviews. And, again, she has several other points of criticism for the game, so you don't get to just say "Oh well, ignore those because she also said this other thing that I don't like so that may as well be the whole review."

And people using the word "feminist" as some insult/dirty word should seriously stop.

#45 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@theht said:

@kishinfoulux said:

@jimmyfenix said:

Joystick gave it 4.5/5 still waiting on Videogames.com`s Review.

Nothing can beat the simcity fiasco at polygon

Just added the link to the OP. I'm sure I'm missing more, but whatever.

@milkman said:

@darji: No, let's talk about this some more. Do you think that anyone that doesn't like Dragon's Crown art style is a "sex negative feminist?" It seems like a lot to assume about someone just because they don't enjoy the abnormally large tits in a video game.

I don't think her personal opinions on the art style belong in a review. If she wants to do an editorial about it, by all means. Also she is pretty much a feminist if you follow her on Twitter.

The art style is a part of the game. The games depiction of women is a part of the game. Why don't criticisms of them belong in a review of the whole game?

So why was this never an issue in lets say Dragon Age 2 in which you have a total offensive trans sexual character which who ever came up with that should be fired on the spot. Why is it never an issue how women are represented in Mass Effect games and how sexualized they are in there? Why is it never an issue if you play a God of War sex mini game? All this game has a women dresses a bit more sexualized than normal for the US standard nothing else.

And for the Atlus comment: What do you expect them to say other than PR stuff?^^

#46 Posted by BigDaddy81 (330 posts) -

I, for one, appreciate Polygon's review of this game. I've never really been a fan of these kinds of games so I never played a lot of them and didn't really know what to expect. It's been especially frustrating seeing as how most of the coverage of the game thus far has been from super fans of the genre. In particular, one Chris Carter of Destructoid seemed like he was ready to have sex with the game as soon as he received his review copy.

Not to mention the more gameplay video I see, the more I can appreciate Danielle's point of view regarding the depiction of women in this game. I have no problem with scantily clad women or large breasts, but this game seems to go unnecessarily out of its way to exaggerate these areas. If she finds this stuff objectionable, then she has every right to voice her opinion on it and let her score reflect it.

There are and will be plenty of reviews that don't touch on the sexualization aspect of Dragon's Crown. One or two reviews that do touch on this issue shouldn't hinder anyone's enjoyment of the game.

#47 Posted by TheHT (11777 posts) -

@darji: You'd have to ask anyone who reviewed those games why they didn't have an issue with those parts.

#48 Posted by oodli (114 posts) -

From what I see this game is like Castle Crashers (button mashy at the early game but harder and more rewarding on the higher difficulties, short game with a lot of replay value and co-op centric structure) but with more emphasis on the loot rather than the classes.

Which I'm totally in for.

#49 Posted by shinjin977 (799 posts) -

@ravelle said:

You can't base a score because of woman being sexualized

Yea, you can. Otherwise, Beat Em & Eat Em wouldn't have nearly the bad reputation it does. Of course, the argument has to be made here that the sexualization of a woman affects the game's quality.

Of cause It can effect the score. I have more problem with the double standard than anything else. If this game is "offensive" then this should be as well.

Full disclosure I do not respect Polygon in the slightest because they employ Aurthur Gies, so I might be bias but I think her score is fair for that site. After all, this is the site that gave Last of Us 7.5? 6.5 for Dragon Crown, this game must be a brawler master piece.

#50 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@theht: No I do have not because these are things that are totally subjective but it is strange how this Japanese game gets all this sexism hate" like Killer is dead as well for a harmless mini game while western bigger developers can basically do what they want. If you want to see my agenda I would call it racist and clueless about the Japanese culture

And yes this is a ridiculous claim but it is on par with the other ones.