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#1 Posted by Hailinel (24426 posts) -

The Shadow Labrys page has apparently been deleted from the wiki and the name is being used as an alias for the main Labrys page. Why was it deleted, if other Shadow characters (Shadow Yukiko, Yosuke, Chie, etc.) are allowed?

#2 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7079 posts) -

That seems strange. Aren't they seperate characters in Arena?

#3 Posted by golguin (3894 posts) -

@MariachiMacabre said:

That seems strange. Aren't they seperate characters in Arena?

Yes, they are two different characters.

#4 Posted by StarvingGamer (8157 posts) -

That's really dumb.

#5 Posted by Hailinel (24426 posts) -

@golguin said:

@MariachiMacabre said:

That seems strange. Aren't they seperate characters in Arena?

Yes, they are two different characters.

As much as any Shadow and whole are two separate characters. A Shadow is comprised of aspects of the whole's personality given flesh and is capable of thinking and acting on its own.

@StarvingGamer said:

That's really dumb.

Yep.

#6 Posted by Animasta (14675 posts) -

I think it was deleted by shadow zombiepie

#7 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7079 posts) -

Yeah, understanding how Shadows work in Persona make me think Shadow Labrys deserves a page. It's different from something like Evil Ryu. They aren't two aspects of one person. Shadows are parts of someones personality made physical. They're seperate from the person they represent.

#8 Posted by ZombiePie (5644 posts) -

@Animasta said:

I think it was deleted by shadow zombiepie

If a deletion request isn't filed for a specific page on the Delete/Combine Board the odds of it ever getting deleted by a moderator are slim. As that is the case here the page was most probably deleted by a staff member so you'd have to inquire them about the page disappearing.

Moderator
#9 Posted by Marino (4653 posts) -

Wasn't me. I don't know enough about Persona to make that kind of decision without a D&C discussion.

Staff
#10 Posted by Hailinel (24426 posts) -

@ZombiePie said:

@Animasta said:

I think it was deleted by shadow zombiepie

If a deletion request isn't filed for a specific page on the Delete/Combine Board the odds of it ever getting deleted by a moderator are slim. As that is the case here the page was most probably deleted by a staff member so you'd have to inquire them about the page disappearing.

In that case, yo, ! Why was the the Shadow Labrys page torched?

#11 Posted by Gamer_152 (14072 posts) -

Well, I didn't do it either, but I don't really see much to be gained from finger-pointing and working out who did do it. The important thing is coming to a consensus over whether the page should be recreated and making it anew if necessary.

Moderator
#12 Posted by Make_Me_Mad (3075 posts) -

@Gamer_152: But there won't be a lot of point to that if someone just cruises by and deletes it again once it gets set up. Seems like the Shadows should be combined with the actual character pages, to me, what with the lengths they go through to explain that they're parts of the people they come from. Of course, that logic says that you should delete the Persona pages and include them on the main character pages as well, and that just seems dumb. Keeping the Shadows on separate pages is probably the simplest solution across the board.

#13 Posted by Demoskinos (14778 posts) -

I'm just going go ahead and say this is really dumb when we still have shit like this in the wiki. That is all I have to contribute so I bid you good day!

#14 Posted by Hailinel (24426 posts) -

@Gamer_152 said:

Well, I didn't do it either, but I don't really see much to be gained from finger-pointing and working out who did do it. The important thing is coming to a consensus over whether the page should be recreated and making it anew if necessary.

I don't think that, among users, you'll find many who would have agreed with the deletion. In the Persona universe, Shadows like those that confront the P4 cast may have been spawned from the the characters, but they're independent entities that have the goal of either murdering the hell out of their originals or being accepted for what they are and represent. This isn't a case like Francis York Morgan/Zach, where it was determined that there should only be one page because it turned out it was one character with two personalities, particularly since Shadows have their own physical presence and can be confronted separately from the original whole.

Shadow Labrys is no different. In fact, there are certain aspects about her that make her more unique than most of the Shadows faced.

#15 Posted by Sweep (8845 posts) -

Because you touch yourself at night.

Seriously though, I have no idea!

Moderator
#16 Posted by Cincaid (2956 posts) -

@Sweep said:

Because you touch yourself at night.

The plot thickens.

#17 Posted by Hailinel (24426 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

I'm just going go ahead and say this is really dumb when we still have shit like this in the wiki. That is all I have to contribute so I bid you good day!

Actually, you might as well make a deletion request for that, based on the outcome of the Chicago Ted discussion.

#18 Posted by NekuSakuraba (7240 posts) -

I blame violent video games. Fuck those things!

#19 Posted by Demoskinos (14778 posts) -

@Sweep said:

Because you touch yourself at night.

Seriously though, I have no idea!

But really...don't we all?

#20 Posted by Hailinel (24426 posts) -

Actually, now that I think about it, Shadows aren't too dissimilar from the Nobodies of the Kingdom Hearts series. They're separate entities fashioned after their originals that long to find their hearts and become whole again. And I don't think that many people would suggest Roxas's page be merged with Sora's.

@NekuSakuraba said:

I blame violent video games. Fuck those things!

Fuck them all!!

WAIT, NO! NOT LITERALLY OH MY JESUS.

#21 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7079 posts) -

Delete every wiki page. We fucked up, time to start over.

#22 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

And I don't think that many people would suggest Roxas's page be merged with Sora's.

But then how would Kingdom Hearts II end?

Given the evidence, though, somebody should put that page back up.

#23 Posted by Drebin_893 (2911 posts) -

@MariachiMacabre said:

Delete every wiki page. We fucked up, time to start over.
#24 Posted by Gamer_152 (14072 posts) -

@Make_Me_Mad: Upon seeing a page they deleted make a return, any good wiki mod will usually check if there's a good reason for it before being resurrected before attempting to drag it off of the site again.

@Hailinel: I'm not the person who knows the most about the Persona series but I'm inclined to agree with you. The Megami Tensei wiki certainly seems to be say that shadows and the people they're based around are two separate and distinct entities.

Moderator
#25 Posted by Praxis (261 posts) -

It's been a while since I've played any Persona, and I haven't played P4A at all, but if I recall correctly, shadow characters are simply meant to represent the repressed feelings of their associated characters, in which case they can't really be considered characters at all, can they? Their existence is explicitly defined by their non-shadow selves, and besides, don't they eventually transform into personas, which are themselves just manifestations of that person? You could go down a real rabbit hole on this one, I think, but for my part I don't find the deletion of these "shadow persona" pages to be a particularly egregious idea.

#26 Posted by Hailinel (24426 posts) -
@Praxis They manifest from the whole, but they do not necessarily become Personae, and they act freely of their own will.
#27 Posted by Praxis (261 posts) -

@Hailinel: I'm not sure I agree with you that all shadow characters have free will. I have no knowledge of the Labrys/Shadow Labrys dynamic, so maybe that case is different, but Shadow Kanji, for example, acts like a stereotypical flamboyant gay man precisely because this behavior is diametrically opposed to the way Kanji tries to portray himself in public. Shadow Kanji is not making an active choice, but reflecting the choices that Kanji has made. It is a part of Kanji that he has buried and refuses to acknowledge, thus it takes corporeal form, and once he does acknowledge it, it becomes a part of him once again in the form of a persona.

#28 Posted by text (26 posts) -

They do have some degree of independent personality and will. Remember Shadow Naoto? She does the whole clumsy, childlike scientist shtick until Naoto talks her down, but when real Naoto is about to leave, she switches to a much less innocent personality and starts actively mocking real Naoto.

#29 Posted by FluxWaveZ (19330 posts) -

@Praxis: But the whole idea behind the Shadows is that they want to become individuals; "free" from the constraints of those they originate from. And so far, every Shadow has succeeded in this when they've gone berserk, effectively becoming their own character.

#30 Posted by FLStyle (4667 posts) -

Wouldn't shadows of existing characters be better defined as a concept rather than a character?

#31 Posted by Praxis (261 posts) -

@text: I'm not saying that shadow characters don't display traits that are distinct from their hosts, just that these traits are a reflection of their hosts' behavior rather than signs of true personhood. Shadow Naoto acts like a child because Naoto herself is afraid of being treated like one, and its behavior changes when she tries to leave because, as a part of Naoto, it does not want to be separated from her.

@FluxWaveZ: They go berserk when their host characters deny them. They do not wish to be free, they wish to be acknowledged as a part of the character they personify. And when they are, they no longer rebel.

#32 Posted by Eirikr (1006 posts) -
#33 Posted by FluxWaveZ (19330 posts) -

@Praxis said:

@FluxWaveZ: They go berserk when their host characters deny them. They do not wish to be free, they wish to be acknowledged as a part of the character they personify. And when they are, they no longer rebel.

Not according to Persona 4 Arena. The reason they're so satisfied when they're denied is because they're "free". It's why so many Shadows say something to the effect "That's right! I'm not you anymore, I'm me!" when they go berserk. It could be said that what they truly want is to be acknowledged, but that's a secondary aspect of their being, I think.

#34 Posted by Praxis (261 posts) -

@FluxWaveZ: Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that a person's acknowledgment of their true self was a major theme of P4, and that shadows and personas were tied to that. If P4A retconned this, so be it.

@Eirikr: Well, thanks for supporting my argument even though you don't... support my argument. :P As for the fighting game rationale, there's plenty of precedent for alternate versions of characters not getting separate pages even when multiple versions of that character appear within the same game.

#35 Posted by FluxWaveZ (19330 posts) -

@Praxis said:

@FluxWaveZ: Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that a person's acknowledgment of their true self was a major theme of P4, and that shadows and personas were tied to that. If P4A retconned this, so be it.

No, that's still a major aspect in P4A and it was indeed a central aspect in Persona 4, but even in the RPG, P4A explains that Shadows don't actually want to be accepted, just like the "hosts" don't want to accept them. Shadows don't want to help the ones they originate from, they want to actively kill them. Shadows want to become their own person without being linked to the other person, hence "I am a Shadow... the true self." This is explained with the whole Labrys/Shadow Labrys thing and it demonstrates why Shadows deserve to be recognized as separate characters.

#36 Posted by Eirikr (1006 posts) -
@Praxis: Hmm, yeah, you're right about multiple versions of characters in past fighting games not needing separate pages, like Holy Order Sol or Evil Ryu. 
 
But in this case, the Shadow will act independently of the "host" character, with that character present, and will interact with one another and the Shadow with other characters. It's not happening within the character's subconciousness, at best maybe a physical projection of it, so Jung be damned.  
 
My two cents are that I wish Persona took a less literal route with the shadows and went more in line with analytical psychology, but whatcha gonna do? :p
#37 Posted by AngelN7 (2970 posts) -

I don't think you even need to understand or get into the whole "what does a shadow represents" this is a fighting game she's in the roster as a separte character so she should have her own page. maybe because she's just an alternate version of an existing character? like Devil Jin doesn't have a page of his own.

#38 Posted by Praxis (261 posts) -

@FluxWaveZ: But isn't a shadow that denies the person that denies the shadow still just reflecting its host? Couldn't a shadow's attempt to kill its maker simply symbolize that person's inability to accept and be at peace with themselves? If the shadows don't want to be a part of and help the person that spawned them, why do they do just that?

@Eirikr: It occurs to me that I may have interpreted P4 in a more metaphorical way than most people. The Midnight Channel, as I read it, is a place where a person and their subconscious can exist within the same space as two separate entities. The fact that the two can act independent of one another does not preclude the possibility that they are also one and the some.

#39 Posted by FluxWaveZ (19330 posts) -

@Praxis: They could symbolize as you suggested, but that may be a deeper interpretation than is intended for them, or perhaps just a different one. The psyche element of a person's Shadow might be manifested frustration that they are being ignored, which is shown when characters finally accept their Shadows and gain their Persona, but there is also the other aspect that Shadows aren't thinking about that aspect of the Shadow/host relationship. All I'm saying is what is explained in Persona 4 Arena, which I don't think has been contradicted in the original Persona 4.

#40 Posted by StarFoxA (5150 posts) -

@MariachiMacabre said:

Delete every wiki page. We fucked up, time to start over.

Worth a shot!

#41 Posted by hakunin (388 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

The Shadow Labrys page has apparently been deleted from the wiki and the name is being used as an alias for the main Labrys page. Why was it deleted, if other Shadow characters (Shadow Yukiko, Yosuke, Chie, etc.) are allowed?

There is really no need for separate pages for the Shadow versions of the characters. Just have a section about the Shadow version on the main character page. That goes for all, those shadow Yukiko, Youske and Chie pages you mention completely unnecessary IMO

#42 Posted by Hailinel (24426 posts) -

@FLStyle said:

Wouldn't shadows of existing characters be better defined as a concept rather than a character?

There is a concept of Shadows, but that's just in general. Individual Shadows should have their own character pages, as they are individual characters. Though they are tied to their original wholes, they are independent beings motivated to antagonize the wholes so that they may become more powerful and truly free.

@Praxis said:

@Hailinel: I'm not sure I agree with you that all shadow characters have free will. I have no knowledge of the Labrys/Shadow Labrys dynamic, so maybe that case is different, but Shadow Kanji, for example, acts like a stereotypical flamboyant gay man precisely because this behavior is diametrically opposed to the way Kanji tries to portray himself in public. Shadow Kanji is not making an active choice, but reflecting the choices that Kanji has made. It is a part of Kanji that he has buried and refuses to acknowledge, thus it takes corporeal form, and once he does acknowledge it, it becomes a part of him once again in the form of a persona.

The behavior a Shadow exhibits as part of their personality is a warped interpretation of the part of the person that they represent. For Shadow Kanji, it's a flamboyantly gay guy, but this in no way means that Kanji is actually gay. He's a young man that's confused regarding his orientation. He is infatuated with Naoto, but it's hard to say if that's because he likes her as a "man" or as a woman.

The same can be said of the other Shadows. Shadow Yukiko is a fairytale princess that wants to be swept off her feet and rescued by a prince (and also fucked). This is all an exaggeration of her desire to be free of the life that's supposedly already been decided for her. Shadow Chie is a dominatrix; a twisted incarnation of Chie being pleased that Yukiko leans on her so much. These in no way mean that Yukiko really wants to be swept away by a prince or that Chie wants to keep Yukiko in literal chains; they're twisted incarnations that can't be taken at face value because of how utterly warped they are. They only represent parts of whole beings that contain so many other aspects. But the one thing that all of the Shadows share is a desire to antagonize their wholes and goad them into rejection. The more the Shadow and the whole are separated, the more powerful the Shadow is. It's only once the fight has been taken out of them that the wholes are able to accept them.

#43 Posted by Hailinel (24426 posts) -

@AngelN7 said:

I don't think you even need to understand or get into the whole "what does a shadow represents" this is a fighting game she's in the roster as a separte character so she should have her own page. maybe because she's just an alternate version of an existing character? like Devil Jin doesn't have a page of his own.

This isn't the same thing. The relationship between a whole and a Shadow is completely different from the relationship between a Jin/Devil Jin dynamic.

Jin and Devil Jin are the same character, represented at different points in time. One is when Jin is normal, and the other is when the Devil Gene has taken hold of him. A Shadow is an entity that is separate from its origin, capable of thinking for itself and acting independent of the whole.

#44 Posted by Eirikr (1006 posts) -
@Praxis said:

@Eirikr: It occurs to me that I may have interpreted P4 in a more metaphorical way than most people. The Midnight Channel, as I read it, is a place where a person and their subconscious can exist within the same space as two separate entities. The fact that the two can act independent of one another does not preclude the possibility that they are also one and the some.

You probably have. :p But considering that the subconscious is often represented by being submerged in water, what's happening when the characters jump into the TV is very similar. 
#45 Posted by Brendan (7778 posts) -

Ok, just so we're clear, we've determined that the reasoning of there being two different "characters" in a fighting game roster doesn't mean both deserve a page, right (Devil Jin example)? So the defining factor is on whether the shadow character exhibits free will from it's source, and becomes a separate character, correct?

The way I see it is that even if the shadow is a manifestation of someone else's dormant personality traits and can be perceived as originally being a part of that character, their behaviour that allows them to effectively "break free" and attempt to manifest themselves by destroying their origin makes them an independent entity (like Alien! [not really]).

#46 Posted by hakunin (388 posts) -

Can you play as Shadow Labrys? Is she an unlockable character?

#47 Posted by AngelN7 (2970 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

@AngelN7 said:

I don't think you even need to understand or get into the whole "what does a shadow represents" this is a fighting game she's in the roster as a separte character so she should have her own page. maybe because she's just an alternate version of an existing character? like Devil Jin doesn't have a page of his own.

This isn't the same thing. The relationship between a whole and a Shadow is completely different from the relationship between a Jin/Devil Jin dynamic.

Jin and Devil Jin are the same character, represented at different points in time. One is when Jin is normal, and the other is when the Devil Gene has taken hold of him. A Shadow is an entity that is separate from its origin, capable of thinking for itself and acting independent of the whole.

But as I said this is a fighting game whatever concepts the game handles in the story do not really affect the characters gameplay wise (wich is at end what that matters in those games) , Shadow Labrys will remain as a character in the roster regardless of what does the story said about her being a separte character or not at least I think that should take precedence in the wiki, people may want to know specific stuff about Shadow Labrys (combos , specific attacks etc) hell whatever the story says as far as the gameplay is concerned she could fall under the "clone" trope in fighting games like Toon Link or Ein (wich are different interpretations of the same character, she may be a whole other being but she still looks like Labrys , fights similar to her and has the same name) but I don't know how the sites handles those kinds of characters for fighting games.

#48 Edited by FateOfNever (1830 posts) -

@Praxis said:

@FluxWaveZ: Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that a person's acknowledgment of their true self was a major theme of P4, and that shadows and personas were tied to that. If P4A retconned this, so be it.

It is, but try looking at it this way:

The Shadow wants to be rejected because being rejected allows it to become its own thing. What it believes it wants, more than anything, is to become free from the person it spawned from. It wants to be independent; it doesn't want to be tied down to the originator anymore because the originator set the initial parameters for what it is and what it could be, but, by being rejected, the shadow becomes free to become something more (as can be seen through the transformation. The shadow selves look like their originator; shadow Kanji looks like Kanji, shadow Chie looks like Chie, but once they are rejected they transform into something more, they transform into their boss forms because they have been rejected by their originator and thus are no longer strictly defined by them, though they are also not yet entirely free.) However, once they are beaten, the originator learns to accept that that was part of them, because if they continue to deny the shadow, the shadow will just grow in power again and break free from the originator once more. So a person acknowledging their true self, acknowledging all of who they are, is still a main theme, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the primary goal of the shadows. Remember, after all, the shadows are only there because of Izanami awakened Adachi who used his powers to murder people, which gave Izanami the impression that what humanity truly desired, more than anything, was to be destroyed. So the shadows aren't there because they want to make their originators better people, they're there because they want to, in simple terms, bring the world to an end.

So both of those things: accepting ones true self as a major theme and shadows wanting to be free from their originators, can be true. There is nothing inherent to either of those things that prevents the other from being true about Persona 4.

#49 Edited by Praxis (261 posts) -

@Hailinel: I wasn't trying to insinuate that lispy gay stereotype Kanji is the real Kanji. I don't think anyone wants that. The gist of my statement was that, whether twisted or not, shadows are entirely defined by their relationships to the characters they came from, which doesn't sound like free will to me at all. Shadows can only act in ways that reflect the inner turmoil of their makers. It isn't a conscious choice. Dominatrix Chie and Princess Yukiko are certainly not accurate representations of their characters, but they are manifestations of very real frustrations within them. They antagonize their creators because, in refusing to accept them, their creators are demonizing them. This problem only goes away when they are finally accepted for what they are.

@FateOfNever: I guess we'll just have to chalk this one up to interpretational differences. I never really got the sense playing P4 that shadows had any real agenda outside of their frustration at being neglected.

#50 Posted by Hunter5024 (5639 posts) -

So basically what is saying is "You're not me!" Is shit about to get crazy in this thread?