#1 Edited by WholeFunShow (342 posts) -

(Apologies if I'm posting this in the not perfect forum) I think Innovative or Trend Setting would be an interesting concept, for example both Gears Of War and kill.switch could be linked with a little entry referring to the Cover System concept (Gears because of how influential it was and kill.switch for doing it {well} first) but I feel like what does and does not count oughter be better codified before people start adding and deleting things. If done right it could be a great page to browse. Yay? Nay? Maybe? Thanks.

#2 Posted by Hailinel (22757 posts) -

Far too subjective to work as a concept page.

#3 Posted by JasonR86 (9383 posts) -

I don't think I would like it. It's too subjective.

#4 Posted by WholeFunShow (342 posts) -

Fair point gratefully received, but it would be possible to rigidly define what does and doesn't count in the body of the concept, it'd be a bit of work for someone (And yes that does translate as someone other than me, far too wishy washy for that...) but I really think the result of browsing the games that started trends would be worth it. The worst that could happen is it turns into a sloppy mess, and they can be plenty fun too ;)

#5 Posted by Ravenlight (8033 posts) -

I like the idea of a list of what you'd consider innovative games, but it wouldn't work as a concept page. Feel free to make a list and post it here, though.

#6 Posted by WholeFunShow (342 posts) -

Thanks and good thinking Ravenlight, I'll give it a go, it'll force me to be the one to think through what [AWKWARD TURN OF PHRASE USED TOO MUCH ALREADY WITHHELD]

#7 Posted by JasonR86 (9383 posts) -

@WholeFunShow said:

Thanks and good thinking Ravenlight, I'll give it a go, it'll force me to be the one to think through what [AWKWARD TURN OF PHRASE USED TOO MUCH ALREADY WITHHELD]

Just remember that, when you make that list, Blackthorne and then Winback had cover before Kill.Switch and Gears.

(around 6 minutes)

(around 3 minutes)

#8 Posted by WholeFunShow (342 posts) -

@JasonR86: Interesting, thanks, I'll have a look through soon enough :)

#9 Posted by GrantHeaslip (1363 posts) -

Way too subjective. The word "innovative" gets thrown around so much in the game industry (and basically society in general) that it's lost all meaning and is basically marketing tripe.

Who makes call as to whether, say, BioShock is innovative? I strongly disagree, but a lot of people probably think it is (they certainly did when it came out). It would be like having a "Beautiful" concept.

#10 Posted by iAmJohn (6091 posts) -

Like others have said, innovation is something that can only really be applied in hindsight and means different things to different people. The cover system point perfectly sums that up: Do we define the innovation as Gears of War's popularization of that kind of snap-to-cover; kill.switch's first uses of that system and creation of blind firing; Metal Gear Solid 2's use of leaning out of cover for attacking; Winback's use of almost the exact same system a year or so before; or Blackthrone's basic use of 2D cover? All of them doesn't seem like a particularly good answer here.

#11 Posted by Gamer_152 (13977 posts) -

Others have said it but just so you can hear it from a mod, this is way too subjective and too general to work. I believe it's interesting and informative to see what games pushed forward certain design tropes, but we already have the means to convey that information and that's through what's written on the pages. If you want to know about the games that pioneered cover systems, look on the Cover System page, if you want to tell users which games pioneered quick-time events, write it on the Quick-Time Event page. That's largely what they're there for.

#12 Posted by FreakAche (2938 posts) -

Lets add a "Fun" concept while we're at it!

#13 Posted by Ravenlight (8033 posts) -

@FreakAche said:

Lets add a "Fun" concept while we're at it!

Vidjagaimzz are serious business. We can't have concepts with no pages attached!

#14 Posted by TheMasterDS (1874 posts) -

How about a "Bad" concept page?

#15 Posted by LordAndrew (14001 posts) -

Seeing this thread ruined my day.

#16 Posted by SuicidalSnowman (396 posts) -

@WholeFunShow: I had this fight a long time ago about an "Immersion" page. I personally felt that you could still point out things that were used to add immersion, or talk about what immersion meant, from a perfectly objective standpoint. I can see doing innovation the same way.

However, I will tell you, echoing the other posts, that you are not going to win this one. Trust me. A way that I was told to look at it is "Can you agree on which games to tag to a particular page?" If there is debate between a game "having" this concept or not, it cannot be included in the wiki. So while you might argue that Blackthorn is innovative for having the first cover mechanic, others might point out that it otherwise was derivative, etc.

What I did instead, however, was write some blog posts on the subject. As others have mentioned, lists work as well.

#17 Posted by WholeFunShow (342 posts) -

@SuicidalSnowman: Appreciate the understanding, Suicidal, and I've come around to understanding the consensus here. I'll consider blogging moar earnestly when I've time. All best.