#1 Posted by flippyandnod (344 posts) -

What's the point of adding more subtlety to Forza 5 when you're constantly getting hit by AIs?

The triggers tell you when you're accelerating a bit too hard? When you are on a rumble strip? You get bonuses for turning damage up to a more realistic level?

What's the point of all this if the AIs are headhunting?

You add subtleties to the simulation to make it more real, then the game turns into a smash-em-up derby if you don't have enough horsepower to pass every car before the first corner?

I don't get it. If I wanted to play bumper cars I'd play PGR or Mario Kart.

#2 Posted by JasonR86 (9379 posts) -

I imagine they weren't planning for the AI to be the way it is. I imagine they hoped players played with a bit more finesse.

#3 Edited by Alehud42 (18 posts) -

Raise the difficulty of the AI. Maybe that'll help.

#4 Posted by Darji (5295 posts) -

What's the point of adding more subtlety to Forza 5 when you're constantly getting hit by AIs?

The triggers tell you when you're accelerating a bit too hard? When you are on a rumble strip? You get bonuses for turning damage up to a more realistic level?

What's the point of all this if the AIs are headhunting?

You add subtleties to the simulation to make it more real, then the game turns into a smash-em-up derby if you don't have enough horsepower to pass every car before the first corner?

I don't get it. If I wanted to play bumper cars I'd play PGR or Mario Kart.

That is what Drivatar does. You can not expect people to drive fair because they don't. It is a huge miss conception. And Maybe they should try to restrict this stuff by only using AI that does not smash into other players or does not cut corners etc.

#5 Edited by PsEG (3491 posts) -

It's actually not as smash-em-up as I expected thus far. There are a few dirty cars here and there, but it's more a human-esque inconsistency that I'm running into with my early races. Cars driving off-track or braking at weird points is more of an issue I'm running into. The biggest problem thus far was an AI that seemed to have a learned habit of brake-checking opponents at the beginning and middle of turns.

I've probably gotten a little lucky, but I'm deliberately driving to try and avoid any contact whatsoever, and it seems to be paying off. It's definitely not the fun of a good multiplayer race, but it's way more engaging than the single-player races were in Forza 3 or 4.

Moderator
#6 Edited by flippyandnod (344 posts) -

First, keep in mind there is no evidence right now that the Drivatars mimic what their "masters" do in Forza 5 any more then they did in Forza 2. They mimic the overall performance level, but right now there doesn't seem to be any indication that actual driving style (early apexing, late apexing, collisions) affect the actual lines the drivatars drive. They sure didn't in Forza 2. We'll know more later.

Second, even if they do follow their "masters", my question becomes even more en pointe. What is the the point of making a game have more fidelity if bad actions you cannot control (whether AIs themselves or random Drivatar masters) will make it hard to play a game with the level of finesse that makes the additional fidelity of worth?

@pseg said:
it's way more engaging than the single-player races were in Forza 3 or 4.
The essence of sim racing is inherently boring. The best race is one where you hit no cars and every apex. Not that I have anything against non-sim racers, but Forza is supposed to be a sim racer and the features advertised implies it plays as one.
Ultimately, why bother to try to sell me on the idea you can indicate my tires are nearing the edge of the friction circle if you're going to deliver a game where you spend more time trying to recover from a car hitting you in the quarter panel (a spin/pit maneuver) than tweaking driving lines?
#7 Edited by zombie2011 (4941 posts) -

I haven't seen any crazy cars out there, the AI drives the way I expect it to. I actually prefer it to the way it used to be, like Jeff said in the QL normally while playing medium difficulty I would be miles ahead of anyone else. Now when and if I win it's a close race and it's more exciting that way.

#8 Posted by ArtisanBreads (3595 posts) -

The "WOW THIS GAME IS A MESS THE FIRST TURN IS A SHITSHOW" talk has not really been reflected in any footage I've seen. Yes there is some contact, definitely more than there used to be, but I think it's acceptable when I watched and otherwise, it keeps the races close which is a great change. Before that you could use some contact to gain an advantage and the computer would never do so. To me it's for sure a positive. Looks way more interesting to play than any sim in years.

#9 Posted by Darji (5295 posts) -

The "WOW THIS GAME IS A MESS THE FIRST TURN IS A SHITSHOW" talk has not really been reflected in any footage I've seen. Yes there is some contact, definitely more than there used to be, but I think it's acceptable when I watched and otherwise, it keeps the races close which is a great change. Before that you could use some contact to gain an advantage and the computer would never do so. To me it's for sure a positive. Looks way more interesting to play than any sim in years.

Watch the Giantbomb Quicklook? Yes Jeff drives like a "dick" but the otehr do also the same.

#10 Posted by PsEG (3491 posts) -

What is the the point of making a game have more fidelity if bad actions you cannot control (whether AIs themselves or random Drivatar masters) will make it hard to play a game with the level of finesse that makes the additional fidelity of worth?

They're two entirely separate issues, so tying them together's a bit pointless. Improvements to handling and input will be desired (and hopefully implemented) regardless of AI. To say a more aggressive and error-prone AI negates the need to improve handling or realism in a racing game is a bit illogical, as these changes would be desired regardless of AI behavior.

It's an improvement over typical racing sim AI, which generally drives error-free and on one solid line throughout a race, rarely reacting to player behavior, much less competing amongst itself like you'd see in a normal race. Is it great? I'm not so sure yet, but it's a lot more interesting, and I feel like I'm having to race more than just hotlap.

The essence of sim racing is inherently boring.

Could not disagree more. I think I'm seeing the crux of the differences in our viewpoints here.

Moderator
#11 Posted by Whitestripes09 (364 posts) -

Aggressive AI does not equal more realistic. To me, that sounds very annoying having AI crash into you... I always found Gran Turismo AI annoying because of how neutral and dead they were to everything. They would seem aggressive since if you got in their line they would just push you away instead of swerving to get away. Forza's AI has always felt a little more "alive" to me, especially in Forza 2 where AI drivers seem to have had their own personalities almost. That's a shame they can't just bring that back and make improvements with it instead of having this whole drivatar system.

#12 Posted by flippyandnod (344 posts) -

@pseg said:

@flippyandnod said:

What is the the point of making a game have more fidelity if bad actions you cannot control (whether AIs themselves or random Drivatar masters) will make it hard to play a game with the level of finesse that makes the additional fidelity of worth?

They're two entirely separate issues, so tying them together's a bit pointless. Improvements to handling and input will be desired (and hopefully implemented) regardless of AI. To say a more aggressive and error-prone AI negates the need to improve handling or realism in a racing game is a bit illogical, as these changes would be desired regardless of AI behavior.

It's an improvement over typical racing sim AI, which generally drives error-free and on one solid line throughout a race, rarely reacting to player behavior, much less competing amongst itself like you'd see in a normal race. Is it great? I'm not so sure yet, but it's a lot more interesting, and I feel like I'm having to race more than just hotlap.

@flippyandnod said:

The essence of sim racing is inherently boring.

Could not disagree more. I think I'm seeing the crux of the differences in our viewpoints here.

I don't agree at all they are separate issues. The point of putting in more fidelity is to make it possible to drive more as a sim and less as a kart racer. But that's blown right away if you can't drive as a sim because the computer cars will be spinning you if you try to drive a race line.

I didn't say anything about improving handling. I'm talking about the additional feedback it gives. Forza 5 doesn't improve handling away.

It's not an improvement over typical sim AI. And we're not talking about reacting to player behavior here. We're talking about the AI trying to take you out preemptively.

And don't say this is anything like a normal race. You don't re-run normal races when you do poorly. You have to pay real money to fix your car (or spine) in real races. And if a driver were to spin cars in the first corner in a real race, that driver wouldn't be racing in the series anymore. All the forces which would be on a driver in a real race to keep them from going on a punt-fest do not exist in more sim racing and don't exist in Forza 5.

In real racing, the car that wins is generally one of the ones that contacts the fewest other cars during the race. And since drivers want to win, that means they don't do what the AIs are doing in this game.

As to my "boring" comment, you've removed the context in order to disagree with me. My point was that in sim racing, the idea is to hit the perfect lap, one that does not vary from succeeding or preceding laps because it is the fastest line possible and any variance would just be going slower. The point is not to try to have more collisions to make it more "engaging" like pseg talks about.

#13 Posted by Grimace (374 posts) -

People drive like dicks because for most players the races are far too short to do proper racing lines and patient passes. As the player base gets down to the die hard Forza players, you'll see the AI get better.

#14 Edited by PsEG (3491 posts) -

The fact you view it as hotlapping over a span of time doesn't change my comment or my interpretation of your comment whatsoever. It's a depressing oversimplification of racing, both sim and real, that disregards the parts that actually make it exciting for both viewers and competitors. That seems to play pretty heavily into where we're disagreeing here.

As I've already stated, I've experienced less of a smash-em-up than what you describe through the races I've run, and most of the Drivatar AIs haven't tried to take me out, even in the first turn. I've dealt with overly aggressive AI through either a little defensive driving or, in the worst case scenarios, sacrificing a few credits to a reverse. Neither have been tremendous problems to my experience as of yet.

AI that actually fights for position on track and makes mistakes? That's what I'm experiencing, and makes my experience a heck of a lot more enjoyable. Doesn't detract from any of the handling or feedback improvements, and the races thus far have been more dynamic than what I've experienced against AI in past Forza titles.

Moderator
#15 Posted by FinalDasa (1253 posts) -

My main concern is more about Drivatars (sp?) expiring. Will the flood of early adopters eventually go away leading to more advanced and cleaner racers? Or will the occasional "dirty" driver change up the experience?

Also I don't get cars necessarily crashing into me as I do getting a few nudges and bumps. RUBBING IS RACING YA'LL.

#16 Edited by benspyda (1898 posts) -

Yesterday the AI were driving like lunatics, but its seemed to calm down for me today. I'm sure it'll get better over time as they nut out the kinks server side.

I'm really enjoying the game a lot more than Horizon and Forza 4, it has that certain feel about it that Forza 3 had. I can't put my finger on it but it's there.

#17 Edited by big_jon (5661 posts) -

I have not really had any issues yet, but Jeff's Drivetar is a complete menace.

Personally, I try to drive neatly.

#18 Edited by flippyandnod (344 posts) -

Which part of that which makes it exciting for competitors is the part where cars ram into each other?

Yes, passing is part of racing, that does mean deviating from the preferred line. But if there is a car in your preferred line you don't just ram into them or spin them because you want to be there.

Real racing means waiting for a passing opportunity and then executing it cleanly. It doesn't mean smash-em up.

@pseg said:

The fact you view it as hotlapping over a span of time doesn't change my comment or my interpretation of your comment whatsoever. It's a depressing oversimplification of racing, both sim and real, that disregards the parts that actually make it exciting for both viewers and competitors. That seems to play pretty heavily into where we're disagreeing here.

#19 Posted by PsEG (3491 posts) -

Real racing means waiting for a passing opportunity and then executing it cleanly. It doesn't mean smash-em up.

We can agree on this. I haven't said anything to the contrary.

The remaining point of contention seems to be that you think the Drivatar AI is only capable of crashing into other drivers intentionally, and as I've said and others have stated in here, while it's an issue from time to time, in general the increased aggression and speed leads to more exciting battles for position than what Forza's had in the past.

Moderator
#20 Posted by ryanwhom (290 posts) -

Forza can't be blamed for most of its fanbase playing their game like its goddamn mario kart.

#21 Posted by Mister_V (963 posts) -

It's been mostly ok for me. You get the odd Drivatar that just wants to run you off the road (Jeff i'm looking at you) but for the most part it's pretty good. It's nice having AI that isn't totally predictable all the time. I think it's designed to take on more of your traits the more you play (hence the Drivatar synch percentage it shows you at the end of each event) so it's going to be interesting watching how it evolves over the coming weeks.

#22 Posted by CaLe (3678 posts) -

I've played about 14 hours or so and very few cars have rammed me so far. I'm playing with Drivatars set to Pro and after the first corner the cars seem to behave pretty much like normal AI, apart from the occasional spin-out. Something I'm not too fond of is that there is always a large gap between 1st and 2nd.

#23 Posted by Mister_V (963 posts) -

@cale said:

I've played about 14 hours or so and very few cars have rammed me so far. I'm playing with Drivatars set to Pro and after the first corner the cars seem to behave pretty much like normal AI, apart from the occasional spin-out. Something I'm not too fond of is that there is always a large gap between 1st and 2nd.

Yeah this is my only gripe with the AI. If i set it to pro i get exactly this. I spend most of the race getting through the pack, but by the time i have done this the car in 1st has a massive lead. It wouldn't be so bad if you could qualify before the races. I ended up turning the difficulty down a notch and it's a little too easy at times but it's been okay so far.

#24 Edited by senrat (290 posts) -

I have not played the game yet, but I keep hearing harder core racers complimenting the AI and more casual racers moaning about it. Jeff seems to be unsure about it, but an IGN reviewer who is quite into sim racers really likes it for its unpredictability. Personally, I think unpredictable AI that may crash just like any human would is way better than racing a procession of cars, but I haven't played the game yet so I wouldn't know. Turn 10 has always said that his AI will evolve over time, so give it some time and maybe it will improve.

#25 Edited by stenchlord (219 posts) -

In the lower difficulties the AI definitely seems rougher but just raise the drivatar difficulty higher and the aggressive drivatars disappear.

#26 Posted by UnsolvedParadox (1852 posts) -

Agreed: the increased physical contact isn't ideal, but overall I think the Drivatar behaviour is a big improvement in AI realism over the previous entries (caveat: I didn't play Horizon).

@pseg said:

@flippyandnod said:

Real racing means waiting for a passing opportunity and then executing it cleanly. It doesn't mean smash-em up.

We can agree on this. I haven't said anything to the contrary.

The remaining point of contention seems to be that you think the Drivatar AI is only capable of crashing into other drivers intentionally, and as I've said and others have stated in here, while it's an issue from time to time, in general the increased aggression and speed leads to more exciting battles for position than what Forza's had in the past.

#27 Edited by BRich (428 posts) -

After a full day with the game I have to say the Drivatar system is a revelation. This is the first racer that doesn't feel like it is entirely on-rails. You see them make the same mistakes I tend to make on tough corners and generally I am still initiating more contact than the AI. I jumped online for a few races and people are much bigger dicks than the AI. I think they struck a perfect balance here.

I am playing on one of the higher difficulties by the way and getting gold 90% of the time on the first run.

#28 Edited by dionysis (51 posts) -

Personally, I'm really enjoying the way "Drivatar" works. It has so much more life in it than any other racing AI I've experienced. Behavior is more random, mistakes can happen by any driver on every corner that seem way more consistent with the types of mistakes I'm making, I feel like every race is something I'm engaged in more when I can't count on predictable/robotic AI behavior.

#29 Posted by spraynardtatum (2125 posts) -

Forza 5 missed the point of selling a game.

#30 Posted by Nasar7 (2500 posts) -

I'm playing with the Drivatar on expert difficulty and I haven't had any major problems with it. Sure, sometimes I encounter a Drivatar that brakes too early and messes up my line, or will swerve in from the outside line to the inside right before entering a turn, but mostly it's been ok and actually added some excitement to the races. Getting pitted in the middle of a turn can be annoying, but it's actually forcing me to pass only when I know I can overtake. I just wish the races themselves were longer because by the time I've worked my way up the field to 2nd or 3rd the race is over, where I know I could take 1st with solid driving if the races were just 3-5 laps instead of the typical 2-3. Either that, or a qualifying system would be nice so you could potentially start on pole.