6 Sexist Video Game Problems Even Bigger Than the Breasts

@panvixyl: He brought up a double standard in which the safety and protection of men is clearly less than that of a different group, in an effort to receive the same kind of safety and protection, the same kind of empathy that women receive when they are abused.

But you took a man asking for protection from abuse as a threat. Clearly if a man asks that violence against men be recognized and proscribed to an equal degree as violence against women, he's a dangerous thug looking for an excuse to punch women in the face.

Rather than caring about victims of abuse independent of their gender, you are most concerned with making sure men understand that their pain is not real, and that asking for equal protection from violence is misogynistic. Because men are disposable objects meant to absorb violence.

@brodehouse: WAIT WHAT WHEN DID I DO THIS???? I AM SUPER AGAINST VIOLENCE IN ALL FORMS, ARE YOU SURE THIS WAS MEANT TO BE DIRECTED AT ME YO.

To suggest you don't know why they were included is pretty disingenuous. The reason why is evident to anyone with a pulse who just looks at that picture of her up there. To suggest there's some other, practical, unknown reason is giving the designers far too much credit and frankly, delusional.

Even if that's the only aspect that is out of character - since her "character" was quite open to interpretation - it's a pretty damned glaring one. A bounty hunter who has wiped out entire species before decides to cripple her maneuverability to gain a few inches in height and some leg-length?!?! Maybe it explains the PTSD too: "Oh shit I wore the wrong shoes today!"

@panvixyl: "How come everyone cares when women suffer violence, but nobody cares when men suffer violence? Isn't that a double standard, shouldn't we also care about male victims?"

"Why do you want an excuse to hit women so bad?"

You know exactly what you did. You took a man asking for the same social protection women receive and you made into him being a threat. That narrative says all men are threats and the violence that men receive is not important.

I agree that there are more important things to discuss like the #1 issue on this article, namely the treatment of real people. That's what needs to be focused on, not fictional people in games.

However, sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. are not *fixed* in the Western world. Yes, we are better than we were concerning these issues than we were at the turn of the century, or during the Civil Rights movement, but there are still problems being faced today by minority groups, including women. The majority of people cannot decide a problem is fixed for the minority group. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. When the United States Congress has a panel concerning birth control and not one woman is on that panel, that is a problem to me. When a person at a university does a study into affirmative action and finds that white participants are against it and favor a meritocracy instead, until they are told that a meritocracy would benefit a minority group (in this case Asian Americans) and then they are suddenly for it, then that's a problem. From the article:

Samson raises the idea that white perception of "group threat" from Asians influences ideas about admissions criteria -- suggesting that they are something other than pure in their embrace of meritocratic approaches.

That shows me that a lot of people still have a lack of understanding and empathy about these issues. I can look at my state voting to allow marriage between gay and lesbian couples and say "See, it's fixed! We're not homophobic anymore." but that's ridiculous. I have no idea what those couples face on a daily basis at work or in their daily lives, so while there may be a sizable change in public perception and acceptance as evidenced by the voter turnout, that doesn't mean they still don't face bigots on a daily basis. And with my own personal experiences, I know that there is still a long way to go where acceptance of GBLT people are concerned, even with huge steps being made.

I agree that there are places that need this attention more. Women in other countries are mutilated and butchered, just for being women. In India, girl babies are aborted at an alarming rate because boy babies are valued so highly. The Taliban will shoot girls just because they have the audacity to go to school. Girls are forced to marry at far to young of an age by their families and by tribal councils, and some may even die due to abuse or other horrific events. The sad thing is, this isn't in one place or in a certain culture, its many places, many cultures. These issues should be addressed first and foremost by the global community. I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that these are not the most important issues facing women today. Arguing about a video game pales in comparison, that's just common sense.

On the flip side, wanting cool female characters in games and talking about that online doesn't mean that anyone is neglecting or ignoring these more serious issues. Coming in and saying "there are more important things to talk about, this is a waste of time" as if no one is aware of these other important factors is a bit condescending to me since I am well aware of other issues. As a women I read a lot about women's issues in my own country as well as in other countries. I am in a line of work where I think I can, in my own way, help with some of these issues, not on a global scale, but in my own hometown with things like domestic violence cases, protective orders, etc, for both women and men. My point being, you can talk about a small issue and still be fully cognizant of a larger picture and of where a problem lies on a hierarchy. These are tiny things, even nit picky things. That doesn't mean that they automatically don't matter at all.

Of course, in my opinion, there are way too many threads and way too many complaints and articles at this point. It's really gone over a line and people are getting caught up trying to find even one "bad" thing in a game or character, and not looking at a larger picture. Is the game a satire, how are all of the characters portrayed, what is the overall message of the game, is the choice made for artistic reasons or reasons that smack of generating controversy? These are all things to consider before calling something out for a perceived affront. My hope is that the wheat will be separated from the chaff and we get to more concentrated discussions of a higher quality sooner rather than later. Otherwise it's all just noise and the conversation is easily lost.

@brodehouse: I believe the actual quote was:

It's totally right for a woman to slap her husband, or any man for that matter, right in the face on national TV. It happened to that racecar driver a couple of weeks ago. But if a man did that to a woman? Game over, man, game over.

VERY DIFFERENT STATEMENT FROM WHAT YOU SAID. At no point was this guy stating that abuse against men directed by women was the issue- it honestly read to me as a creep who wants it to be as acceptable to hit women as it is to hit men.

And for the record I am, of course, always against violence in all forms. The stigmatization against men in abusive situations is to me something I both adamantly oppose AND consider a feminist issue.

Why is it not a bad thing? Art does not exist in a vacuum, people see it, in the case of video games, people play it. Samus' character used to be open to a wide range of interpretations. Other M firmly ensconced her as a sexed up, deferring to authority, overly emotional, PTSD afflicted wuss. Artistic freedom be damned, that was a shitty move on Nintendo's part.

@jadegl: But for all this you do not need feminism. as Brodehouse said:

there is as much need for feminism as there is for 'masculinism' or any ideology that favors one gender over another. Which is why people who really care say they are egalitarian. Feminism cannot, by definition, be worried about equality over being worried about women. It's why they chose to use a word for female in their name rather than a word for equality. I will never understand how anyone chooses an ideology that is concerned for the welfare of a single group, and sees everything that another group does as threatening, even when it amounts to playing games quietly all by themselves, and then has the nerve to say it's 'for equality'.

@sinusoidal: Dude, chill. I meant I didn't see a logical reason that she'd be suddenly wearing them in this game despite not having them in others. I understand that they were put there because a designer felt like it.

@darji: I never said you need a specific -ism, just that people who claim that the problems are solved are not correct. While we are in a much better place than we were years ago, we're certainly not reached a utopia of understanding and equality either.

Edit - I changed my wording a bit. I think before it seemed like I was passing judgment, I am really just trying to say that people are still facing difficulties, even if strides have been made.

Yeah, but that's probably your Facebook crowd. I'm just going by my personal experiences of the average female in my life probably couldn't name one recently released title.

Uh, really? Do you not just know many women or what.

Which probably wasn't as strong five years ago, as I outlined earlier in the thread. I feel like there's a hardcore/casual element underlying this entire discussion.

People will always face difficulties and this will never change but we never should try to solve it with a specific ideology To tackle these issues we need to look behind any race or gender or sexual preference. We need to look at them like people, That is why i said that to me feminism is outdated and that it has nothing to do anymore from the women movements back than and that it is no longer needed in our western first world countries.

I dunnoooooo....Ivy's boobs are preeeeeeetttty big

If you feel Heavy Rain didn't deserve to be in the article then we're just not on the same page. I haven't played the new Tomb Raider, and getting hung up on The Last of Us fails to recognize five other entries in the list (and I think one can argue either way about the resolution of the restaurant fight, both positions appear valid to me). I enjoyed reading it, I didn't learn anything, but it was a valid perspective and a refreshingly frank one amidst all the cantankerous shit that goes on within the video game community.

I don't subscribe to any ideology, though if I had to try and put a finger on it I lean more towards being a he-man woman-hater. These things often don't appear to me until someone points them out. But that doesn't mean I don't find them fairly accurate descriptions of what the video game universe is like.

For example, I liked when he introduced that iPhone game about role-playing a princess stuck in a castle. It's a great analogy for the exceptionally boring roles we put female characters into; at the end of the day, Elizabeth is a middling character surrounded by great storytelling. But she's also a very obvious Princess Peach/Zelda hybrid and that doesn't seem to take advantage of her powers in the most dramatic ways. I'd have liked to see her take matters into her own hands more than the once or twice she does rather than wait for Booker to give her commands all the time.

Look, at the end of the day, the whole thing is pretty stupid. I'm a big proponent of "let the artists art what they want to art". But I'm way more bothered by the idea that threads or comment sections - primarily only on gaming forums - quickly devolve into attacks on the ONE gaming fact a writer got wrong, or the fact they just clearly don't know what they're talking about at all and have no idea how games work, rather than a more nuanced, academic look at the thing. I get it's the internet and we don't have time for that, but this writer (same as Anita Sarkeesian) said a lot of very truthful things about games, at least they rang that way to one 25 year old midwestern white guy, and I'd rather just acknowledge that (or get into a furrowed-brow debate over the Metroid timeline) than find the one thing I want to nitpick and fly off the handle with nerd rage.

@darji: Which I am not advocating, so repeatedly responding to me as if I am advocating something I am not is a bit of a waste of time for both you and for me.

I would also ask, since I see you in a lot of threads concerning feminism specifically but not other issues, do you see a problem with groups such as NAACP, GLAAD, the ACLU or ACLJ? These groups are all advocacy groups for different groups people, are they just as unneeded and useless as a groups purporting to be feminists, lets just say? It would seem to me if you are arguing for strict egalitarianism, then you would find any advocacy group to be unneeded in the current climate.

@nodima: The reasoning to put heavy on the list is for me pretty stupid. and I think I explained it already. Not only the mentioning what kind of stuff she is wearing notably in the night but also that she is weak and getting assaulted for the sake of nothing. Which i totally disagree with. She has this nightmare because of something in her past Maybe she was assaulted and maybe even raped in her past and that is the reason she can not sleep alone in her house anymore. MAybe killing her of is a symbol which shows that her normal life died the moment in the past she was "raped"

For me it was a powerful scene which sadly was not delved more into. But by no means it was meaningless or in any form harmful. Video games are becoming more than just fun gameplay moments. They want to tell a story but if you always try to criticize someone who shows something that is more uncomfortable you will never reach a level of maturity in these video game stories.

You know what. I give up. Fine, men are the absolute villains of the human experience. Whites too, I don't care. No matter what I do, no matter what I say, it's always going to come down to the fact that I'm in this group and thus I'm terrible.

Fuck everything.

@darji: That's totally fair, all I remember about that game at this point is "ARI, comment:" and crawling through impossible to crawl through tunnels for an impossibly long time set up by a character who'd have found it impossible to craft that "trap". Heavy Rain, much like L.A. Noire, had me amped up for a game that had studied hard at the alter of Westwood's Blade Runner game, and delivered on absolutely none of it. For my experience, it was an incredibly novel idea wrapped up in some of the worst storytelling I've ever seen. Hard to remember how much of that is the French-America and how much is the beats themselves, but I know for a fact if I played that second half of the game again the ONLY joy I'd get from it is randomly stumbling into a death animation. So I'm likely predisposed to agree something about Heavy Rain's characterization was flubbed considering I thought the whole thing ended up a colossal disappointment.

"Looks like you've got......a splitting headache."

To comment on these groups I need to know about them and I do not really know them but if they are reacting like "feminists" right now in this industry and call people out, attack and insult stuff that is not conform with their ideology than yes. They are also not needed. These groups are totally fine as long they do not attack people with different believes or try to victimize themselves.

As an example Penny Arcade since this is also pretty hot right now. There was a dispute about some game about taching women masturbation and the transgender community went a bit off the roads calling it out because it did not the thought of transgender people and they called it "exclusionary" Which then was pointed out to him. But for him and many other people we define our gender based on out genitals so the only thing he said was It is a game for "women and they have a vagina and men have a penis" But with that this community went berserk called him a bigot, cis male garbage and told him that he should die"

So if we talk about these kind of people who are doing this to pressure anyone into their believes and call anyone else out who does not think that way. Than yes these organisations are not needed in any form because with this way you will never archive understanding and equality.

Posters like @jadegl and @brodehouse are always the most well-reasoned on this kind of subject, so before I muddy this up with my own sloppy perspective, I just want to say I appreciate you guys taking your time to make enlightening posts without all the sensationalism.

Art's always a reflection of its time. You'll get less dumb stuff in your games when our lives have less of that dumb stuff in them. There's a reason a lot of media from the 50's and earlier is kinda hard to watch, from a social perspective, what with all the casual racism and various brands of exploitation thereof. They're things born of what the social consciousness was at the time, and when that changed, we got less of it.

But we didn't enact that social change by ham-fistedly forcing every foreign caricature to be replaced with an 'idealized, flawless' version of whatever they represented, and that's where a lot of arguments on this subject break down for me. That feels like giving an extreme answer without providing any education as to how we got to it, or why we should want it. It's important to remember that it's ignorance rather than malicethat creates these bad generalizations and archetypes. Drawing battle lines and maligning people for simply following the status quo doesn't help anything. Educating does, even if it's not going to make an overnight change.

In general, I agree that women should have better representation. If for no other reason, that we all gain from our games being more diverse and less trope-y. So, I'm always going to be in favor of these conversations popping up. This discussion is a good thing, and it'll lead to good things... just, some folks just kinda need to... keep a lid on it? Taking buckshots everywhere doesn't do your argument any favors, nor does trying to invoke instant revisions further your cause. Insisting that every piece of media has to be a vehicle for social change, is... ironically, more akin to oppression. Not to be hyperbolic and suggest that anyone is in danger of oppressing anyone here.

This little piece of game-design logic might apply: rather than nerfing the other side down to your level, buff yourself to their level. Which is to say, we're all better for it if we aim to improve ourselves, instead of constantly trying to bust the other side down.

Ramble-y mess? Check. Post Reply...? Sure.

I never said the storytelling or the execution were great but it was in no way harmful to women. For me the biggest problem that causes all these believes is not sexism or misogyny but rather just bad writing.

Shesh. Disagreeing shouldn't mean anyone hates anyone. It is stupid that some can't even talk about the stances without being accused of hating someone.

I joined that club months ago.
I just said "Fuck it, I don't give a shit anymore, bitch if you wanna, I'm gonna go enjoy life and have fun again"

@brodehouse: I'm very sorry that your life is so difficult.

Truly the plight of the cishet white male gamer is one of the most pressing in our matriarchal, heterophobic, bigoted society.

@panvixyl: Out of curiosity, do you intend on engaging in this conversation (that you started)? I mean, I know it's easier to just make insulting little quips at people you disagree with, but...

@brodehouse: I hope you didn't take my main post to be accusatory, I certainly didn't intend it to be. I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, and I often find we agree on things a lot more than we disagree. I know that we often come from a different place when debating. I know I tend to go more from the gut and from what I feel, although I always try to back up what I say with something I read or experienced, while I know that you tend to see things in a more logical way and tend to debate using logic.I know that I can be wrong too, even though I love to try and illuminate people as to my point of view, even if I am unsuccessful. I know you may have skipped out on the thread and may not see this, but I wanted you to know that I always appreciate what you're trying to say, even if we may not always see eye to eye on something.

@superkenon: I mean, insulting quips are my forte - it's why I have a twitter! I'd love to engage, but sort of conked out after I posted this and have been busy with class all day. I didn't really feel up to the task of writing essays on an iPhone either.

Give me a mo' and I'd be happy to dive in though.

@darji: I don't mean to go so far off topic, but I wanted to to tell you that I think your English has really improved since you first started posting here. As someone who only speaks one language, I found it kinda cool to notice the other day.

@panvixyl: Might not seem like a deal, but it's the kind of thing that makes you come across as rude and incapable of talking about the subject, and just kinda fuels the fire that ultimately undermines these discussions.

I'm talking more broadly than against you personally. It's just worth resisting the urge to respond LIVE constantly, and waiting until you have the proper time and brainspace to add to the conversation proper. More respect and civility all around, it's good stuff!

Literally no one is saying this. Stop taking every criticism about something you like so personally.

There are some serious straws being clutched in parts of that article and in the parts where that's not the case it's stuff being talked about that's already been said by a million other people.

Regarding the parts about The Last of Us and Tomb Raider; the whole "everything is sexist" thing has to fucking stop. It's absolutely ridiculous. Ellie and the new Lara are fantastic female characters who don't fall into any of the stereotypes which have plagued video games for so long and they also aren't just one dimensional "strong female characters". They have clear, well developed, interesting arcs. Also why is it that if a female character is perceived to be badly written it's sexism whereas if a male character is badly written it's just bad writing?

This article actually makes some very good points.

I remember when Cracked was cool.

I wasn't arguing for or against anything, actually.

@video_game_king:

"These are positions of power. They're demonstrative of power."

Yet you failed to quote where I said men are also always portrayed as racist and sexist, which I'll now add idiotic, simple, manipulative and dishonest, do these too suggest power?

"Because women who buy games are in the very small minority at....45%. And they're actually in the majority if we're talking about the United States population in general."

Yes of "causal" games, not of "hardcore" games, for example 50% of all movie fans are women, guess how many women watch and buy action movies compared to how many women watch and buy romantic comedies?

I really didn't feel like this guy played Last of Us. At what point did Ellie need Joel? We saw for most of the game that she could hold her own. Hell, there's shit I'd talk about if it wasn't spoilerific. Also, this is all old hat stuff to be honest. This article didn't make a good impression with me with their first examples of the "daddy issues" as it definitely feels like they didn't play The Last of Us but merely were told a brief synopsis.

All that stuff comes with the territory of being a villain. They're bad traits because they're in a bad position (unless you want to make the argument that all men in video games are portrayed this way).

And guess how many men needlessly stereotype women and dismiss statistics that suggest otherwise based on jack shit? I'll say that I've met quite a few hardcore gamers who happened to have vaginae. Hell, some of them on this very site.

we can find these kind of 'problems' with almost every game character in history. if you want to focus on something real, go be a game designer and write about characters YOU care about. see if it doesnt turn into some cheesy bullshit even more vomit inducing than the 'tropes' that are in these 'sexist/misogynist' games now.

everything that the person talked about in that article was pointing a pitchfork at a completely legitimate story telling device. there is no sexism or misogyny in those games. there are elements of the feminine and masculine which are explored in deep or shallow ways, and all those ways are totally fine. theres no anti-female conspiracy or problem with the world that is leading towards something horrible that needs to be stopped. you have just as much of a say in what happens in the next generation of video games as anyone else. and im making the wager now, that judging by the way you people react to this shit, what you make will probably be a surface level reaction to all of this drama which will be even more putrid and offensive and vomit inducing than any of these so called 'tropes' that youve been throwing your diapers about.

I love women! and I kinda like video games! I think im a sexist now, right?

You can't judge someone by what game they spend their time with. My mother plays word games and Mahjong on her computer and I would never call her a gamer or say she likes to play games. My mother in law, however, I would say is a gamer and I would say she loves to play games, even though she spends her time with hidden picture games and the Smurf ipad game. When my MIL was into the Smurf game, she would talk to me about her village set up, how she was maximizing her resources, how she would go online and read threads about game updates and for tips and tricks on the mini games and other mechanics. How is that any more or less hardcore than me playing Civ 5 and trying to maximize my resources and my cities ? Because one has FTP hooks and one is a $60 store purchase? That's just a wee bit close minded. Not only that, but it's in attitude as well. My mom doesn't care a fig about new games or consoles, but my MIL watches the E3 keynotes and is talking to us about what new console to buy. But again, she doesn't jump out to people and tell them that. A lot of people from this thread may totally discount her if they saw her playing a hidden picture game on her ipad, but that would be a huge miscalculation on their part.

I'm just trying to say that there are people playing games that get looked down on (yes, I fall into the trap too sometimes) and yet they are as into them and as good at them as someone spending all their time in COD multiplayer.

Adding to this, I'd like to post this study by the ESA made this year regarding stuff like demographics and who's buying the games. Of particular note is page 3, which shows stats of who's playing and who's buying by gender. The reason why I'm posting this now is because the sources on gaming demographics posted before were outdated.

sadly there is no indication who is playing what. And this would be the most interesting statistic

And this, right here, is the issue with the gender debate in general. It's why I'm all for the complete integration of women in the military, and why I wish we took rape against male victims more seriously, and why I prefer to call myself a humanist rather than a feminist. I've never understood why we can't just be fucking nice to EVERYBODY.

You want to get rid of sexism against women? Get rid of it against men, too! The underlying issue with all media (not just games) isn't some conspiracy to objectify women or some other such nonsense, but to package everything in neat, easily digestible stereotypes. That's why most men in sitcoms or romantic comedy movies are fucking morons, and why women are depicted as either sexually available or distressed in action films and series. It's why blacks are depicted as having a hilarious ghetto accent that probably doesn't even come close to how most blacks likely speak, why Hispanics are always depicted as strongly-accented Mexicans who can't speak good English, why Asians are the socially-awkward brainiacs... It's not sexism, racism or anything else. It's shorthand used by shitty writers who don't want to actually research anything, and instead fall back on easily digestible stereotypes.

Put short, it's not about an anti-woman agenda in gaming: it's about demanding higher quality content than what we're receiving right now across the board, and recognizing the humanity of every man, woman and child on the planet without reducing them to a meme.

@charlie_victor_bravo said:

More people need to say what you're saying.

Counter-point: isn't "be nice toward women" a step toward that goal? And doesn't encouraging such vague thinking unconsciously drive us away from acknowledging those people outside societal norms (for America, a straight white guy), thus worsening the problem rather than helping to end it?

I'm not saying we should ignore the issues that women specifically face, but it needs to be part of a broader discussion as opposed to the only thing being discussed.

Put short, society needs to talk like adults about a lot of shit, and as long as we only focus on one thing while ignoring others, that can be used to undermine the discussion rather than develop it.