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#101 Edited by SpaceInsomniac (3909 posts) -

@joshwent said:

Separate Sexism Forum:

- If a perceived problem is that the same people are posting in those threads every time, relegating those topics to an entirely separate forum would separate the discussion from more and more users, actually exacerbating the problem people are ostensibly trying to solve.

The sexism forum wouldn't be hidden by default. It would only be hidden by users who don't want to see those threads, much like off-topic can be hidden by people who only want to focus on gaming.

@joshwent said:

- It's impossible to define what is about sexism and what isn't. Consider Bioshock Infinite. A thread about Booker being am underdeveloped character would undoubtedly go in the main forum. Would a similar post about Elizabeth be moved to an entirely cut off forum just because she's a female character? Some mod would be forced to make that decision, which will just create daily pointless aggravation on their part and on the users' side.

If someone makes a thread in the Bioshock Infinite forum about Elizabeth being an undeveloped character, that's fine, as long the thread remains character focused, and not social issue focused. If the topic wandered off to a discussion of feminism and female representation, then the thread should be moved.

The same would be true for someone creating a thread asking if Booker was underdeveloped, which then went into the whole 'disposable male' issue frequently pointed out by men's rights groups.

At least that would be one way to handle it.

@joshwent said:

- Most of these discussions about sexism are related to a specific game, and therefore they are still game-related, not off-topic. A thread about the women in GTA V belongs in the GTA V Forum. Segregating it would make an unprecedented split in how games threads are categorized, all because some users here just don't like them.

This would be the only real issue with a sexism sub-forum that I really can't argue against. At this point, it just comes down to the benefits outweighing the negative aspects, and I believe they do.

#102 Edited by MB (13300 posts) -

@spaceinsomniac: I'd too like for moderation of shitposts, such as when the same user posts the same strawman / ad hominem in every thread of the same topic. "Oh this thread again HA LOOK AT ME IM A MRA LOLOLOL XD"

But I think that is a lost cause.

It's not a lost cause. There is a link to the right of every page on the forums for users to easily contact us...when you see behavior like this, either flag it or send us a note and we will deal with it. We rely on users a great deal to hep us with this stuff. Help us help you.

@leebmx said:

...I really think the solution is much more vigilant moderation. At the moment mods seem to be competely absent and just let these threads run on with people attacking each other, making irrelevant off-topic posts or posting stupid gifs. Mods to get properly serious and ban anyone who posts 'not this again' or words to that effect, popcorn gifs etc. ...

If the mods really got stuck in they could make this site a fantastic place in a week, but they don't seem to do anything. I don't know if this is because they are restricted by policy or what but they have it in their power to change the way this debate is conducted.

We are free to operate as a group and handle things based on our best judgment. I think saying we "don't seem to do anything" is a little unfair...if that were the case, this place would be an absolute shithole so full of trolls and spammers you wouldn't believe it. It's a difficult balancing act to give people the freedom to enjoy the site and interact with one another on one hand, while also stopping the trolls and assholes without being too oppressive. It's easy to say "Just clamp down on everything", but we all do take these issues seriously and are open to constructive criticism on how to improve things. However, I don't think saying "be more strict" is really that helpful. You have to look at the big picture and carefully weigh the cost/benefit ratio of stricter moderation policy before going too crazy on people. The flipside to all of this is that no matter how lenient we are, there are a lot of people who think we are already too strict.

Moderator
#103 Posted by leebmx (2236 posts) -

@mb said:

@nsmb2_mario said:

@spaceinsomniac: I'd too like for moderation of shitposts, such as when the same user posts the same strawman / ad hominem in every thread of the same topic. "Oh this thread again HA LOOK AT ME IM A MRA LOLOLOL XD"

But I think that is a lost cause.

It's not a lost cause. There is a link to the right of every page on the forums for users to easily contact us...when you see behavior like this, either flag it or send us a note and we will deal with it. We rely on users a great deal to hep us with this stuff. Help us help you.

@leebmx said:

...I really think the solution is much more vigilant moderation. At the moment mods seem to be competely absent and just let these threads run on with people attacking each other, making irrelevant off-topic posts or posting stupid gifs. Mods to get properly serious and ban anyone who posts 'not this again' or words to that effect, popcorn gifs etc. ...

If the mods really got stuck in they could make this site a fantastic place in a week, but they don't seem to do anything. I don't know if this is because they are restricted by policy or what but they have it in their power to change the way this debate is conducted.

We are free to operate as a group and handle things based on our best judgment. I think saying we "don't seem to do anything" is a little unfair...if that were the case, this place would be an absolute shithole so full of trolls and spammers you wouldn't believe it. It's a difficult balancing act to give people the freedom to enjoy the site and interact with one another on one hand, while also stopping the trolls and assholes without being too oppressive. It's easy to say "Just clamp down on everything", but we all do take these issues seriously and are open to constructive criticism on how to improve things. However, I don't think saying "be more strict" is really that helpful. You have to look at the big picture and carefully weigh the cost/benefit ratio of stricter moderation policy before going too crazy on people. The flipside to all of this is that no matter how lenient we are, there are a lot of people who think we are already too strict.

Sorry, that was maybe badly phrased and a bit harsh. I certainly don't think you do nothing, just personally I think that more could be done to make people behave with respect for each other. I know that a lot of people don't like the way they do things, but on NeoGaf they seem to take a much harder line on people arguing in a disrespectful fashion, posting useless or irrelevant comments, or ignoring the OP to get on their own personal hobby horse. I know some people regard them as some kind of forum eliteists/nazis, and I am not a member, but in the few times I have been in there I have kind of liked the way there are clear standards to which people have to keep.

I don't know what work you do out of view (sending PM's to people etc) so you might already do this, but there have been lots of times when debates have been heated where it might have been very productive to step in and remind people not to be personal or rude, or to maybe not jump into every thread on a certain subject.

But you are right, it must be very hard to strike a balance between letting people be independent grown-ups and making sure things don't get too heated. It just seems at the moment that mods are only covering the baseline stuff, like spam and truly gross behaviour. I don't particularly like flagging things unless they are spam or outright racism, and partly that's because I don't like feeling like a grass, but also it is because I am not really sure what the limits are on this site and whether it is going to be noticed. There are plenty of times where I wish people (myself included) would be less aggressive and rude, or be more concerned with having a debate rather than winning, but I have been unsure whether this is behaviour which is frowned upon or just considered the rough and tumble of online debate.

I suppose it depends whether you see the role of a moderator as simply a policeman or something more. I think it should be as the name implies, someone who intervenes and moderates the tone and nature of the debate and this is what I feel has been maybe missing from the sexism discussions which have been going on recently.

Apologies again if I sounded too harsh before, I really appreciate the job that all the mods do for free, just think there could have been a little more input recently.

#104 Posted by Hailinel (25205 posts) -

@leebmx said:

@mb said:

@nsmb2_mario said:

@spaceinsomniac: I'd too like for moderation of shitposts, such as when the same user posts the same strawman / ad hominem in every thread of the same topic. "Oh this thread again HA LOOK AT ME IM A MRA LOLOLOL XD"

But I think that is a lost cause.

It's not a lost cause. There is a link to the right of every page on the forums for users to easily contact us...when you see behavior like this, either flag it or send us a note and we will deal with it. We rely on users a great deal to hep us with this stuff. Help us help you.

@leebmx said:

...I really think the solution is much more vigilant moderation. At the moment mods seem to be competely absent and just let these threads run on with people attacking each other, making irrelevant off-topic posts or posting stupid gifs. Mods to get properly serious and ban anyone who posts 'not this again' or words to that effect, popcorn gifs etc. ...

If the mods really got stuck in they could make this site a fantastic place in a week, but they don't seem to do anything. I don't know if this is because they are restricted by policy or what but they have it in their power to change the way this debate is conducted.

We are free to operate as a group and handle things based on our best judgment. I think saying we "don't seem to do anything" is a little unfair...if that were the case, this place would be an absolute shithole so full of trolls and spammers you wouldn't believe it. It's a difficult balancing act to give people the freedom to enjoy the site and interact with one another on one hand, while also stopping the trolls and assholes without being too oppressive. It's easy to say "Just clamp down on everything", but we all do take these issues seriously and are open to constructive criticism on how to improve things. However, I don't think saying "be more strict" is really that helpful. You have to look at the big picture and carefully weigh the cost/benefit ratio of stricter moderation policy before going too crazy on people. The flipside to all of this is that no matter how lenient we are, there are a lot of people who think we are already too strict.

Sorry, that was maybe badly phrased and a bit harsh. I certainly don't think you do nothing, just personally I think that more could be done to make people behave with respect for each other. I know that a lot of people don't like the way they do things, but on NeoGaf they seem to take a much harder line on people arguing in a disrespectful fashion, posting useless or irrelevant comments, or ignoring the OP to get on their own personal hobby horse. I know some people regard them as some kind of forum eliteists/nazis, and I am not a member, but in the few times I have been in there I have kind of liked the way there are clear standards to which people have to keep.

The requirements for even becoming a NeoGAF member are far harsher than Giant Bomb or really most other game community websites. I'm not a member there either, and I haven't tried to become one, but just the fact that there's an approval process you have to go through to even be allowed forum posting access is pretty hardline. After that, it's pretty much expected that people obey the rules or it's a quick exit. And while there have been times when I've felt that the moderators here have been lenient to the point of lax, I much prefer it this way than the environment that NeoGAF is reputed to run under.

#105 Edited by leebmx (2236 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@leebmx said:

@mb said:

@nsmb2_mario said:

@spaceinsomniac: I'd too like for moderation of shitposts, such as when the same user posts the same strawman / ad hominem in every thread of the same topic. "Oh this thread again HA LOOK AT ME IM A MRA LOLOLOL XD"

But I think that is a lost cause.

It's not a lost cause. There is a link to the right of every page on the forums for users to easily contact us...when you see behavior like this, either flag it or send us a note and we will deal with it. We rely on users a great deal to hep us with this stuff. Help us help you.

@leebmx said:

...I really think the solution is much more vigilant moderation. At the moment mods seem to be competely absent and just let these threads run on with people attacking each other, making irrelevant off-topic posts or posting stupid gifs. Mods to get properly serious and ban anyone who posts 'not this again' or words to that effect, popcorn gifs etc. ...

If the mods really got stuck in they could make this site a fantastic place in a week, but they don't seem to do anything. I don't know if this is because they are restricted by policy or what but they have it in their power to change the way this debate is conducted.

We are free to operate as a group and handle things based on our best judgment. I think saying we "don't seem to do anything" is a little unfair...if that were the case, this place would be an absolute shithole so full of trolls and spammers you wouldn't believe it. It's a difficult balancing act to give people the freedom to enjoy the site and interact with one another on one hand, while also stopping the trolls and assholes without being too oppressive. It's easy to say "Just clamp down on everything", but we all do take these issues seriously and are open to constructive criticism on how to improve things. However, I don't think saying "be more strict" is really that helpful. You have to look at the big picture and carefully weigh the cost/benefit ratio of stricter moderation policy before going too crazy on people. The flipside to all of this is that no matter how lenient we are, there are a lot of people who think we are already too strict.

Sorry, that was maybe badly phrased and a bit harsh. I certainly don't think you do nothing, just personally I think that more could be done to make people behave with respect for each other. I know that a lot of people don't like the way they do things, but on NeoGaf they seem to take a much harder line on people arguing in a disrespectful fashion, posting useless or irrelevant comments, or ignoring the OP to get on their own personal hobby horse. I know some people regard them as some kind of forum eliteists/nazis, and I am not a member, but in the few times I have been in there I have kind of liked the way there are clear standards to which people have to keep.

The requirements for even becoming a NeoGAF member are far harsher than Giant Bomb or really most other game community websites. I'm not a member there either, and I haven't tried to become one, but just the fact that there's an approval process you have to go through to even be allowed forum posting access is pretty hardline. After that, it's pretty much expected that people obey the rules or it's a quick exit. And while there have been times when I've felt that the moderators here have been lenient to the point of lax, I much prefer it this way than the environment that NeoGAF is reputed to run under.

Yeah it is kind of a balance between the two I suppose. From what I have seen NeoGaf is very snobby and hierachical, with older members being a bit patronising and new people having to watch what they say more than others and I don't want that here. But I do like the way you have to be respectful and if you are going to say something there has to be a point to it, and it needs to be said in the right place. It is important to create an arena where people feel they are talking to other people, not just shouting their opinions into a crowded room. It can be a bit too much like the latter at the moment.

#106 Edited by Gamer_152 (14126 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@gamer_152 said:

@mb said:

@jadegl: I approve of this message.

What I would really like to see is a separate board for these type of things that can be hidden from view (like we used to be able to do with Off Topic) so people can discuss these issues all they want, but those people who really just want to talk about video games can do that, too.

I had Off Topic hidden for years and put a lot of effort into keeping non-gaming threads there, so people weren't forced to view them. That functionality is currently broken...maybe

@rorie

can see if some engineering time can be allocated to this? It would be nice to hide boards from view again so they don't show up in the recent topics feed like they used to.

If I may respectfully disagree with this, I'd like the input of more of the mods/staff in general before we start talking about creating extra boards for this kind of thing. There is a bit of a problem here, the forums have a lot of these topics and many users obviously don't want to see them, but giving them their own board feels like giving them too much space, while giving them a single thread feels like giving them far too little space. I also disagree with the idea that talking about women in games doesn't count as actually talking about video games, I think it's an entirely valid topic when discussing them. I'm not completely sure what the solution is here, but I think there should be more discussion of it before we make a hard decision.

Yeah, many of these threads aren't really "off-topic" since they discuss something related to video games. The problem, at least as I see it, is the ubiquity of these threads. While it's a topic that's worth discussing, repeats of the same general topic seem to appear on a daily basis, and it's killing the desire of people to take part in those discussions. I personally don't feel that they've been particularly well-moderated; they're frequently allowed to keep going until the conversation has completely gone beyond the pale and people either abandon the topic en masse or a moderator steps in after pages of diatribes and finally locks it. And then the cycle just repeats itself in another thread.

I know that this is a subject that is particularly of interest to @patrickklepek, but even he would have to admit that for the amount of threads that spring up, the forum is seeing diminishing returns on the actual quality of constructive conversation.

I mostly agree. Repetition isn't necessarily a bad thing, I think there are certain things that need to be said early and often because they're important things that aren't always getting through to people, but the quality of the discussion when it comes to sexism in games here is consistently low. Now in some places the mod team can help with that and in some we can't. When threads get asinine or just devolve into aggressive mudslinging, we shut them down, but we can't moderate people for poor reasoning, lack of understanding over issues, or similar things which are also big problems when we try to have these discussions.

We always try to give threads with potential a chance before we lock them, and sometimes it takes several vaguely aggressive posts from a user before we consider them worthy of moderation, but we could probably be doing a better job with some of these threads. To be honest, we don't see as much from them showing up in our inbox or the mod queue as I might expect, so I'd really encourage people to again flag when they see problem content. To be honest I used to go into those threads and manually deal with them as best I could, but after so many negative interactions with them I've been avoiding going into them where I can, it's just an unpleasant experience. I fear that a lot of the problems we have with discussing these issues aren't to do with a few problem users, but more to do with general community attitudes over sexism in games, and that makes them much harder to tackle. All I can say on this front is to everyone, please try to be civil, open to listening, and inclusive when we discuss these issues, because when we're not it's bad news for all involved.

Moderator
#107 Posted by MB (13300 posts) -

I further expand on that...we see exponentially more posts on the forums from users complaining about threads than we do notes from users asking us to review content on the site. It would be quite helpful if some of that energy was redirected into something more productive and useful than just complaining...so, think about that the next time you're about to post something like, "Wow I hope a moderator sees this soon and does something about it!"

Moderator
#108 Edited by NekuSakuraba (7198 posts) -

I totally agree. My forum activity has gone quite a bit since all this sexism talk started. Everytime I go on the forums they seem to be a bit clogged by the discussions and they are simply something I'm not interested in at all. I want to talk about video games, dammit! I feel like the sexism topic is being repeated over and over, similar to the whole "Are Video Games art" thing that was going around.

I think the idea of having a forum and being able to hide it would be great, similar to how you used to be able to do it for the Off-Topic forums as MB said.

I'm pretty sure it would have a lot of backlash though, people saying things along the line of "Giant Bomb is sexist because they censor people talking about sexism" so it definitely won't end well.

#109 Posted by Video_Game_King (36271 posts) -

@mb said:

I further expand on that...we see exponentially more posts on the forums from users complaining about threads than we do notes from users asking us to review content on the site.

Then how many stars do you give this thread?

#110 Posted by Darji (5293 posts) -

@leebmx said:

@hailinel said:

The requirements for even becoming a NeoGAF member are far harsher than Giant Bomb or really most other game community websites. I'm not a member there either, and I haven't tried to become one, but just the fact that there's an approval process you have to go through to even be allowed forum posting access is pretty hardline. After that, it's pretty much expected that people obey the rules or it's a quick exit. And while there have been times when I've felt that the moderators here have been lenient to the point of lax, I much prefer it this way than the environment that NeoGAF is reputed to run under.

Yeah it is kind of a balance between the two I suppose. From what I have seen NeoGaf is very snobby and hierachical, with older members being a bit patronising and new people having to watch what they say more than others and I don't want that here. But I do like the way you have to be respectful and if you are going to say something there has to be a point to it, and it needs to be said in the right place. It is important to create an arena where people feel they are talking to other people, not just shouting their opinions into a crowded room. It can be a bit too much like the latter at the moment.

Neogafs rules are not only harsh but rather unfair. If you say one thing that a mod maybe not agree with as a new member you are out. IT does not even have to be disrespectful but just an opinion he does not share and you are gone.

I think the idea with self flagging should work really really well as long people do not abuse it and flagging stuff because they have a different opinion on things. Also it would be a sign that people want actually do have a discussion and want to have different opinions on this matter.

#111 Posted by GnaTSoL (836 posts) -

Ugh...thanks Polygon...But in reality, its not an issue. There are games out there where there is a female lead, and if one wants to play it then all the power to them...I just don't want to have everyone's criticism thrown down my throat. I play a game because I enjoy it, and don't look for deeper meaning or wonder why doesn't this game have a predominant female lead.

It's purely for my enjoyment.

Only if everyone thought like this....

#112 Edited by Milkman (17499 posts) -

Just to chime in here, I think having a "sexism" forum sounds completely ridiculous. The solution, to me, is just if a thread is made that seems to be treading the same ground as another thread, lock it and direct people to an older thread about the topic. Also, it's usually pretty clear what threads are going to generate any kind of worthwhile discussion and which ones will not. Why that Anita "scandal" thread was allowed to stay open for this long is completely beyond me.

For people who don't like discussing the topics, they don't have to click. For the most part, these threads are usually labeled pretty clearly as "THIS IS ABOUT SEXISM OR WOMAN OR SOME SHIT." It's usually the same people every time who feel obligated to post about how much they don't care or just generally try to derail the conversation. I'm not saying ban them on the spot but maybe it's time to look if some people are really contributing anything positive to this site.

#113 Posted by joshwent (2427 posts) -

I see your point, but let's take it a little further. Let's say I write a thread in the Infinite forum about how Elizabeth's motivations in the game didn't make a lot of sense, purely about the writing and gameplay and nothing mentioned about sexism or women in games, just purely about the character. Then, after a page, two people start arguing about how whatever thing is sexist. Meanwhile in the thread, I'm having an interesting and respectful conversation with others who are questioning my points. Then my thread is marked as being about sexism, and moved to the "special forum", where it would then be forever disconnected from the original Bioshock forum. So any interesting points I or others may have made are all but erased when a future person goes looking.

Clearly, there could be a case made that my thread wasn't about sexism so maybe can they move it back, but at best that would just cause a pile of constant unnecessary arguing with the moderators. And even with all that hassle, it wouldn't really help the content of threads at all.

It just still seems to me that the line between what people here call a 'sexism thread' and any other game topic is fundamentally blurred.

(also, thanks so much for your in depth well reasoned response. we can have a dialog like real people!)

@mb said:

...we see exponentially more posts on the forums from users complaining about threads than we do notes from users asking us to review content on the site.

I think tackling this could be a great first step for improving content and conversations overall. Even after this thread started, users posing here have gone into other threads and continued posting pointless "Here we go again." remarks. Is it okay to flag those? Inevitably, those type of comments will make someone who does care respond to those who don't which starts the avalanche of arguing. So stopping those before they incite something could have a huge positive effect.

Also, the forum rules mention "quote pyramids or empty quoting" isn't allowed, but that happens all the time here (even in this thread as well) and has a similar derailing effect. Is it okay to flag those too?

Basically, if we bring some of these simple things to you guy's attention I think it could have wonderfully positive results, but I'm weary of just starting to flag all of those posts, even if they clearly break those rules I mentioned. (especially considering the Karma system where, if I'm not mistaken, your account can be frozen or something when a user just starts flagging a lot)

Thanks!

#114 Posted by Slag (5075 posts) -

@jadegl said:

Hi all. I'm JadeGL here on the boards, and pretty much anywhere else online really.

Lately, there have been a lot of threads concerning various articles tackling the issue of Women in Gaming, or if you want the shorthand - Sexism. I think they're really starting to clog the boards.... My proposal is to have a large mega thread, a catch all where new articles will be posted....

Again, thanks for the read and thanks for the input.

maybe I'm an optimist but I think video games will do much better on this issue in the coming years. I feel like the wave of change is coming, which is why there is so much heated discussion now. Dramatic Change always upsets people. Which might mean there will be a day where that a Sexism subforum/megathread outlives its' usefulness or probably more accurately popularity.

that being said a separate forum for debates/controversial topics might be an idea that has merit. I'm sure there will always be something to debate in video games and it might be nice to have a place where people can avoid those topics if they want. The Sexism posts could go there along with whatever is the controversy of the moment, and people interested in opening their perspectives could read and discover them there. And the crowd who comes here solely for gamez and lulz (which many do) I suppose wouldn't have to see them if they don't want to.

#115 Edited by benpicko (2008 posts) -

Go ahead. Thread for people who want it and less clutter for those that are tired of 12 threads a day on the same subject. Sure.

#116 Posted by Darji (5293 posts) -

@milkman said:

Just to chime in here, I think having a "sexism" forum sounds completely ridiculous. The solution, to me, is just if a thread is made that seems to be treading the same ground as another thread, lock it and direct people to an older thread about the topic. Also, it's usually pretty clear what threads are going to generate any kind of worthwhile discussion and which ones will not. Why that Anita "scandal" thread was allowed to stay open for this long is completely beyond me.

For people who don't like discussing the topics, they don't have to click. For the most part, these threads are usually labeled pretty clearly as "THIS IS ABOUT SEXISM OR WOMAN OR SOME SHIT." It's usually the same people every time who feel obligated to post about how much they don't care or just generally try to derail the conversation. I'm not saying ban them on the spot but maybe it's time to look if some people are really contributing anything positive to this site.

The problem was not the thread but people posting in it attack her on a personal note. If people feel it is a thing that needs to be said or that they feel is a reason for not believing her than it is totally ok. If you however just attack her like " she wears the same stuff over and over again" or look at her earrings" than it becomes a problem.

And again if we flag these spammers not opinions than we could mange it ourselves and do not even need mods. With a complete forum it becomes more of a a hassle to self manage that.

#117 Posted by TaliciaDragonsong (8609 posts) -

I agree. Sick of seeing newspaper quality topic titles that just bait people into responding.

#118 Posted by Legion_ (1555 posts) -

I agree, but that's not going to happen. And this thread will probably turn into a thread with all the same arguments. Anyway, I don't know why anyone would discuss this online, as it's just a breeding ground for hateful opinions. There's rarely something good that comes out of online discussions. The result is usually just that people get even more entrenched in their own opinions.

#119 Posted by nsmb2_mario (72 posts) -

@milkman said:

Just to chime in here, I think having a "sexism" forum sounds completely ridiculous. The solution, to me, is just if a thread is made that seems to be treading the same ground as another thread, lock it and direct people to an older thread about the topic. Also, it's usually pretty clear what threads are going to generate any kind of worthwhile discussion and which ones will not. Why that Anita "scandal" thread was allowed to stay open for this long is completely beyond me.

For people who don't like discussing the topics, they don't have to click. For the most part, these threads are usually labeled pretty clearly as "THIS IS ABOUT SEXISM OR WOMAN OR SOME SHIT." It's usually the same people every time who feel obligated to post about how much they don't care or just generally try to derail the conversation. I'm not saying ban them on the spot but maybe it's time to look if some people are really contributing anything positive to this site.

See, you pretty much highlighted the exact problem in those threads for me, first a person states their opinion, "THEN OUT COMES THE STRAWMAN HEHEHE." Can't you try to get your point across without using such an insulting fallacy?

#120 Posted by leebmx (2236 posts) -

@darji said:

@leebmx said:

@hailinel said:

The requirements for even becoming a NeoGAF member are far harsher than Giant Bomb or really most other game community websites. I'm not a member there either, and I haven't tried to become one, but just the fact that there's an approval process you have to go through to even be allowed forum posting access is pretty hardline. After that, it's pretty much expected that people obey the rules or it's a quick exit. And while there have been times when I've felt that the moderators here have been lenient to the point of lax, I much prefer it this way than the environment that NeoGAF is reputed to run under.

Yeah it is kind of a balance between the two I suppose. From what I have seen NeoGaf is very snobby and hierachical, with older members being a bit patronising and new people having to watch what they say more than others and I don't want that here. But I do like the way you have to be respectful and if you are going to say something there has to be a point to it, and it needs to be said in the right place. It is important to create an arena where people feel they are talking to other people, not just shouting their opinions into a crowded room. It can be a bit too much like the latter at the moment.

Neogafs rules are not only harsh but rather unfair. If you say one thing that a mod maybe not agree with as a new member you are out. IT does not even have to be disrespectful but just an opinion he does not share and you are gone.

I think the idea with self flagging should work really really well as long people do not abuse it and flagging stuff because they have a different opinion on things. Also it would be a sign that people want actually do have a discussion and want to have different opinions on this matter.

As I said, I don't want that here. Sometimes Darji, I don't think you read people's posts at all, just focus on one word and fire off a reply. I don't want people banned for posting opinions but I do want people warned or banned if they are rude or don't focus on the debate at hand. For example in another thread today a poster challenged you on one of your points and by way of reply you just posted up a hour long video and told him you don't care whether he watches it or not. That, to me, is a prime example of how not to conduct debate on these forums. This is where mods should come in and say that's not acceptable, if you want to debate you have to be prepared to explain your arguments not expect people to spend an hour of their time watching some video on You Tube, because you couldn't be bothered to show them respect and reply properly.

As to flagging, I don't like doing it much unless something is spectacularly out of order because I don't like feeling like a grass. Also even if we do start flagging, the mods still have to act on it, so it amounts to the same thing anyway, which is the mods have to be more vigiliant. I suppose what we could do is all make an effort to flag anything we thought innapropriate for a week so the mods get some idea of what general community standards are, but in the end they are still going to have to choose whether to be more involved or not. My solution to all this is to let the threads stay as they are but have more mod involvement in political threads and have a clearer and tighter set of rules for disucssing topics which get people hot under the collar.

#121 Posted by Darji (5293 posts) -

@leebmx said:

@darji said:

@leebmx said:

@hailinel said:

The requirements for even becoming a NeoGAF member are far harsher than Giant Bomb or really most other game community websites. I'm not a member there either, and I haven't tried to become one, but just the fact that there's an approval process you have to go through to even be allowed forum posting access is pretty hardline. After that, it's pretty much expected that people obey the rules or it's a quick exit. And while there have been times when I've felt that the moderators here have been lenient to the point of lax, I much prefer it this way than the environment that NeoGAF is reputed to run under.

Yeah it is kind of a balance between the two I suppose. From what I have seen NeoGaf is very snobby and hierachical, with older members being a bit patronising and new people having to watch what they say more than others and I don't want that here. But I do like the way you have to be respectful and if you are going to say something there has to be a point to it, and it needs to be said in the right place. It is important to create an arena where people feel they are talking to other people, not just shouting their opinions into a crowded room. It can be a bit too much like the latter at the moment.

Neogafs rules are not only harsh but rather unfair. If you say one thing that a mod maybe not agree with as a new member you are out. IT does not even have to be disrespectful but just an opinion he does not share and you are gone.

I think the idea with self flagging should work really really well as long people do not abuse it and flagging stuff because they have a different opinion on things. Also it would be a sign that people want actually do have a discussion and want to have different opinions on this matter.

As I said, I don't want that here. Sometimes Darji, I don't think you read people's posts at all, just focus on one word and fire off a reply. I don't want people banned for posting opinions but I do want people warned or banned if they are rude or don't focus on the debate at hand. For example in another thread today a poster challenged you on one of your points and by way of reply you just posted up a hour long video and told him you don't care whether he watches it or not. That, to me, is a prime example of how not to conduct debate on these forums. This is where mods should come in and say that's not acceptable, if you want to debate you have to be prepared to explain your arguments not expect people to spend an hour of their time watching some video on You Tube, because you couldn't be bothered to show them respect and reply properly.

As to flagging, I don't like doing it much unless something is spectacularly out of order because I don't like feeling like a grass. Also even if we do start flagging, the mods still have to act on it, so it amounts to the same thing anyway, which is the mods have to be more vigiliant. I suppose what we could do is all make an effort to flag anything we thought innapropriate for a week so the mods get some idea of what general community standards are, but in the end they are still going to have to choose whether to be more involved or not. My solution to all this is to let the threads stay as they are but have more mod involvement in political threads and have a clearer and tighter set of rules for disucssing topics which get people hot under the collar.

First of all I never said that you would like a neogaf like order here I just quoted this because it was the topic not because I disagree with you. And for the video. I am sorry but if you look at the last post of this person which is also included in here you can clearly see their motivation and agenda. His/her first post today i saw for this topic was that people just need to be stopped who have a different opinion and that men should stop being crybabies. Then it went on in another thread posting some feminism propaganda site which I personally think is really really terrible . The video was a reaction to all that because I did not want to deal with this person much longer than posting an hour long video which basically destroys everything he or she said.

Seriously why should I take time for this kind of person? By the way this person was already called out yesterday by other people as well as example what we should flag.

For flagging. No the mods do not need to react. If one post gets flagged by a lot of people you lose karma points and after a certain point you will not be able to post for a few days anymore. All that is without any mods doing this it is all automatically.

#122 Edited by BabyChooChoo (4942 posts) -

This entire thing seems to me like a bunch of people who are tired of talking about sexism specifically rather than people who are tired of repeat threads. If people were really tired of repeat threads, someone would do something about all the motherfucking PC Build threads (among others) that pop up even though there's a sticky in the PC subforum. Those are just as if not more frequent than "all these sexism threads" and nothing is being done about those. Why should anything be done about threads relating to sexism?

If people are tired of repeat discussions then, I'm sorry, the mods need to do something. Lock the threads or something. I see repeat threads locked every day. If these sexism threads were really repeats, regardless of the amount of discussion going on within them, then there would be sufficient grounds to close them, but since they seem to rarely get closed, I would assume they aren't, in fact, devolving into repeats.

I'm calling it like I see it. I don't think there's really that big of a problem here. Not a real problem anyway. People are tired of seeing discussions about sexism like they're tired of seeing Youtube videos about someone who is "old news" or some shit. It has nothing to do with the frequency or any of that. It's just the "fad" called sexism is over and done with for some people.

#123 Posted by leebmx (2236 posts) -

@darji: If you were agreeing with me OK, but it didn't come across like that.

The thing is darji you don't seem to have much respect for anyone who doesn't agree with you. If you don't like the site he posted to, say why. If you disagree with him say why. Would you watch an hour long feminism video if someone posted it to you with no editorial, saying they didn't care whether you watched it or not? I doubt it. If you don't think someone is worth talking to, don't reply. That video post just seemed symptomatic of so much of your posting on this issue, where there is a refusal to commit to real discussion just an attempt to drown the other side out. It seems to me that you are not interested in learning anything, just fighting a war, and that is pointless and harmful to the site.

As for the mods/flagging situation, I just think flagging is too open to abuse, and I would be doubtful whether it even worked, seeing as how busted the forums have been. I think there has to be role for mods, because they have to be for more than just cleaning up spam and locking duplicate threads. Flagging has a place and can be useful, but I think we need clearer rules and to have them enforced.

#124 Posted by Darji (5293 posts) -

@leebmx said:

@darji: If you were agreeing with me OK, but it didn't come across like that.

The thing is darji you don't seem to have much respect for anyone who doesn't agree with you. If you don't like the site he posted to, say why. If you disagree with him say why. Would you watch an hour long feminism video if someone posted it to you with no editorial, saying they didn't care whether you watched it or not? I doubt it. If you don't think someone is worth talking to, don't reply. That video post just seemed symptomatic of so much of your posting on this issue, where there is a refusal to commit to real discussion just an attempt to drown the other side out. It seems to me that you are not interested in learning anything, just fighting a war, and that is pointless and harmful to the site.

As for the mods/flagging situation, I just think flagging is too open to abuse, and I would be doubtful whether it even worked, seeing as how busted the forums have been. I think there has to be role for mods, because they have to be for more than just cleaning up spam and locking duplicate threads. Flagging has a place and can be useful, but I think we need clearer rules and to have them enforced.

I am pretty harsh yes and if someone does come with the really stupid you are a straight white male argument I really can not help myself. Point in a discussion or debate is that you stand to your opinion in a belief that yours is right and if you do not see arguments that convinces you you normally don't back up. I can have nice discussions with people who also respect my opinion and i respect their opinion because they have arguments that are valid in my eyes. That does not make them right and me wrong but rather they have another opinion and I respect this as long you can back it really up. For example I respects JadeGL standpoint even I do not agree with her.

And yes the post with the video was not nice I admit that but at that point i was just fed up with this person and this should have been the last time I tried to talk wither except he/she gave me a strange reaction and I asked about this again. Otherwise I would have not replied anymore.

For the flagging issue: Yes you can abuse it and you can flag posts that you are not agreeing with. But this could also show that people want to talk if they are not abusing it. If one or two people abusing this system it does not matter that much it is only meaningful if quite a few people flag the same post to make it clear. And yes mods also are needed but by flagging we can help keeping these thread or threads kind of manageable even if there are no mods or they are busy.

#125 Posted by Hailinel (25205 posts) -

@darji said:

@leebmx said:

@darji: If you were agreeing with me OK, but it didn't come across like that.

The thing is darji you don't seem to have much respect for anyone who doesn't agree with you. If you don't like the site he posted to, say why. If you disagree with him say why. Would you watch an hour long feminism video if someone posted it to you with no editorial, saying they didn't care whether you watched it or not? I doubt it. If you don't think someone is worth talking to, don't reply. That video post just seemed symptomatic of so much of your posting on this issue, where there is a refusal to commit to real discussion just an attempt to drown the other side out. It seems to me that you are not interested in learning anything, just fighting a war, and that is pointless and harmful to the site.

As for the mods/flagging situation, I just think flagging is too open to abuse, and I would be doubtful whether it even worked, seeing as how busted the forums have been. I think there has to be role for mods, because they have to be for more than just cleaning up spam and locking duplicate threads. Flagging has a place and can be useful, but I think we need clearer rules and to have them enforced.

I am pretty harsh yes and if someone does come with the really stupid you are a straight white male argument I really can not help myself.

By my count, the vast majority of people that you have engaged have not used that argument.

#126 Edited by EXTomar (4993 posts) -

Personally I attribute part of the issue is that the "forum culture" is a bit flaky or weak. There are too many "I like cake" topics started by "new accounts" which silly short posts that are no content, no discussion where a side effect is that "What about the sexism in GameX? Link. Discuss!" pops up too often. There might be something to discuss but linking to another's ideas and adding none of your own is bad. If someone wants to stir up this hornet nest again please start by with at least 1000 of your own words.

#127 Edited by leebmx (2236 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@darji said:

@leebmx said:

@darji: If you were agreeing with me OK, but it didn't come across like that.

The thing is darji you don't seem to have much respect for anyone who doesn't agree with you. If you don't like the site he posted to, say why. If you disagree with him say why. Would you watch an hour long feminism video if someone posted it to you with no editorial, saying they didn't care whether you watched it or not? I doubt it. If you don't think someone is worth talking to, don't reply. That video post just seemed symptomatic of so much of your posting on this issue, where there is a refusal to commit to real discussion just an attempt to drown the other side out. It seems to me that you are not interested in learning anything, just fighting a war, and that is pointless and harmful to the site.

As for the mods/flagging situation, I just think flagging is too open to abuse, and I would be doubtful whether it even worked, seeing as how busted the forums have been. I think there has to be role for mods, because they have to be for more than just cleaning up spam and locking duplicate threads. Flagging has a place and can be useful, but I think we need clearer rules and to have them enforced.

I am pretty harsh yes and if someone does come with the really stupid you are a straight white male argument I really can not help myself.

By my count, the vast majority of people that you have engaged have not used that argument.

I don't even know what that argument means.

#128 Posted by RandomHero666 (3185 posts) -

I'm sure this whole sexism thing will blow over pretty soon, but i don't really have a problem with 3 or 4 threads about it on the first page, could be worse.


Or just do some magic so the word 'sexism' always links to 'Sexism'

#129 Posted by RollingZeppelin (2148 posts) -

I am fully in support of having a dedicated sexism thread.

#130 Posted by RazielCuts (2997 posts) -

+1

Although surely the sexism arguments and counters have been talked to death already? I guess when 'events' happen and things update the thread can update too, like a time capsule.

#131 Edited by Rorie (3039 posts) -

Thanks for the comments and suggestions, guys. I'll talk around with the mods and see what we come up with. Just keep in mind that these kinds of changes, if we do decide to go forward with them, don't happen overnight...

Staff
#132 Posted by Darji (5293 posts) -

@rorie said:

Thanks for the comments and suggestions, guys. I'll talk around with the mods and see what we come up with. Just keep in mind that these kinds of changes, if we do decide to go forward with them, don't happen overnight...

Of course not but glad you guys are on it^^

#133 Edited by Tarsier (1078 posts) -

@vitor said:

@tarsier said:

@marokai said:

@tarsier: This is why the simplest and best solution in the long-term is to just create some sort of "debate" or "serious discussion" board where mods can relegate a lot of these topics, and people can be free to filter out that forum if they wish. Everyone's happy in that scenario.

or you could name it more accurately 'pig vomit'

@tarsier said:

just ban them all

i have a hard time believing the majority of these people arent 4chan trolls who have adapted a new level of 'sophistication' with their trolling strategies.

Dude, you're literally adding nothing to the discussion here, just stop. Some people actually give a damn about this, just because you don't doesn't mean you can shit all over people's willingness to actually try and engage with perceived issues.

where does it appear that i dont give a damn

i give all the damns in the world

damn it all

these are the people who are donating to whats her face with the hoop earrings whose never played a game since mario 1

these are them

now the games are coming out which theyve been asking for. theyre going to start pouring out like a diarrhea dumpslide, unbounded by the restraints of a well fastened diaper. but even they are going to be consumed, and the whole world is going to be drowned by an ocean of shit. not even ron paul can save us then.

#134 Posted by Oni (2115 posts) -

Terrible idea. Keeping it all in one thread is a good way to ensure you don't actually reach ANY new people with the issues. Someone who's not into MGS but is into GTA may read about the issues in that game and change their mind. The average person isn't going to go into like SEXISM MEGATHREAD (lol at the very idea).

To those who are saying "I just want to talk about videogames!" There's sexism in videogames. We ARE talking about videogames when we discuss those issues. Just because it's not an aspect of vidya you want to discuss makes it no less valid, and you have no business telling other people what is and isn't an issue. If you don't want to talk about it, don't post in the thread. If moderators are more strict against posts like THIS GUN B GOOD and SHITSTORM INCOMING and other completely non-constructive posts, that'd solve a lot of it.