Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

The 3DS hasn't been out that long, but in the brief span of time since it's launch, it's been touched with not one, not two, but three, yes count them, three traditional fighting games. I do not claim to be an expert in the genre to any extent, but after having spent at minimum a few hours with each, I thought I should do a little write-up on my impressions on them. So here we are.

Super Street Fighter IV: 3D Edition

Well, this seems familiar.

This is the big one that many people would say is the best game to come out on the 3DS's launch day. It's hard to disagree with that assessment (though I can certainly make a case against it), but regardless of the quality of its launch day competition, it's, Super Street Fighter IV. All of the same fighting action with optional touch screen special attack shortcuts and without the ability to use fight sticks. Which must drive the purists absolutely crazy. I love it.

Well, no, I don't really love it all that much. While a fun game, certainly the one with the best online support of the three fighting games I'm highlighting, it is Street Fighter to a fault. Though I initially had fun in the single-player mode, getting used to the different characters and earning points to unlock figures, I've run into the same barriers that I hit when I played the game's console-based original and Super variants. The first is that the game depends entirely too much on nostalgia. While this was an excellent tactic for the original Street Fighter IV, Super doesn't really do much to infuse it with anything new. I enjoy playing Juri, no doubt, but she and Hakan were the only two all-new characters added, and Hakan is pretty stupid.

The second is that too many damn characters play almost the exact same way. The 2D fighting genre is ripe for variety in style, which I'll expound on more a bit later, but Super Street Fighter IV plays it too safe. There are too many characters that are based upon the same concept of fireball + dragon punch variant, with the addition of a super kick of some sort, whether it be the hurricane kick, tiger knee, or what have you. My interest in Arcade Edition was killed the moment that they announced Evil Ryu and Oni (a.k.a.: Eviler Akuma).

Seriously, Capcom? What?

That being said, there's also not much variety to the modes, either. Sure, there's standard arcade, online, and challenges, but as other fighting games have proven, it's possible to have a greater all-around experience if more attention is paid to the single-player content in addition to the multiplayer. The game is Street Fighter, which is fine, but it's hard to find anything more complimentary than that.

Dead or Alive: Dimensions

'Sup, Ridle...wait, what?

Okay, let's put this aside at the start. Yes there be boobs. Yes, they be bouncing. It wouldn't be Dead or Alive if they didn't. With that out of the way, however, right out of the gate, Dead or Alive: Dimensions has shown itself to be, more than any of these the three games I'm talking about, much more thoroughly designed for the 3DS hardware. It has a form of StreetPass, but rather than SSFIV's figure battles, players actually download the fight data of others and can enter single-match challenges against a CPU controlled version of the StreetPass partner's preferred character. DOAD has figures as well, but these are items purely included as an extra, and once again, unlike SSFIV, can be unlocked in pretty much every mode in the game, including online. There's no silly Figure Slots game.

Speaking of extras, the traditional excess of costumes is present in full force as well. They can be unlocked during gameplay. Play Coins can be spent for random prizes; most commonly for new costumes or figures. And more than any other 3DS game thus far, DOAD has taken full advantage of SpotPass by offering up a daily costume download since launch that is as of this writing still in process.

Also worth mentioning is the Chronicle mode, which is a story mode recap of the events of DOA1-4. It is, in some ways, like the story mode in Mortal Kombat, stringing the narrative together with cutscenes. Somethings it does better, some things it does worse. On the downside, the story doesn't flow as smoothly as in MK; there are moments where it feels disjointed. Sometimes characters are introduced in scenes just to give them a reason to be there with nothing more than lip service to their backstories. On the other hand, the game uses Chronicle mode as a far more capable tutorial than MK's story by gradually introducing the concepts of the DOA fighting system over time. For someone like me, whose only previous experience came from DOA2: Hardcore and some DOA4, this was a nice touch. The mode is also structured a bit better and is divided into selectable chapters that can be returned to at any time, unlike MK, which lacks a chapter-select option.

And it needs to be said; none of the bosses are anywhere on the level of the fun-destroying idiocy that is facing Shao Kahn at the end of MK's story. That's worth bonus points right there.

Overall, the package is one that's better than SSFIV in most every way. The only thing it doesn't exceed SSFIV at is the online play, and what differences there are could be described as minor, at best. A relatively small number of matches have been loaded with lag, though for the most part the connections I've had are smooth. The only real downside to the set-up is that matches against strangers are one-and-done. Rematches aren't an option. That being said, however, it's fun enough that I've played the online far more than I've ever touched it in SSFIV.

BlazBlue: Continuum Shift II

Marvel's Squirrel Girl would be proud.

A portable version of the arcade game, BlazBlue: Continuum Shift II is loaded with singleplayer options out the wazoo. There's the story mode, the arcade mode, the Abyss endurance mode, a challenge mode, hell, even a strategy game. And that's in addition to a full-fledged tutorial hosted by the condescending and brutal Rachel Alucard as well as a separate training mode. It has the looks and sounds of its console brethren. And the only thing it's missing, and I mean the only thing, is online play.

Wait, you're thinking. What? A fighting game without online? A fighting game from a series that has online play on consoles doesn't have online on the 3DS? Well, yeah. I'm being pretty straight-forward here. Continuum Shift II only offers multiplayer through local wireless. Unless you have 3DS owning friends locally that are also interested in the game, there's little hope for multiplayer action. Well, unless you own the console versions.

So why even bother with this version? Well, all that other stuff I mentioned is still pretty awesome, and if you want some single-player BB action on the go, then you can't really go wrong here. The 3D effect on the graphics is also pretty well done, given that the characters are 2D sprites. And well, frankly, online or no, I feel that the game is the superior of SSFIV.

Allow me to explain. Remember my big complaints with SSFIV? Particularly the complaint that too many characters play the same? Yeah, not an issue here. Sure, the cast is smaller, but the characters are unique in their moves and play styles; it doesn't have the problem of eight characters with fighting styles based off of the same mass production template. (And people are excited for Evil Ryu. What the hell? Can someone explain this to me with the mindset of a reasonable human being?) And the presentation is filled to the brim with a personality all its own, from the way the characters animate and are voiced to the fighting system that, though my lack of fighting game expertise may blind me, feels far more complex and nuanced than what SSFIV has to offer.

Also, this:

Bang Shishigami's Bang Install theme is so glorious in its brute manliness that it trumps the goddamn universe.

Closing Thoughts

Three very different, fighting games within the span of just a few months for handheld less than half a year old. That's not a bad start. Especially for a genre that didn't receive much attention on the original DS. I'm interested to see where things go from here. All three games above have things going for them (some more than others), and it would be great to see this trend continue.

So long as it avoids the inclusion of Evil Ryu.

Online
#1 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

The 3DS hasn't been out that long, but in the brief span of time since it's launch, it's been touched with not one, not two, but three, yes count them, three traditional fighting games. I do not claim to be an expert in the genre to any extent, but after having spent at minimum a few hours with each, I thought I should do a little write-up on my impressions on them. So here we are.

Super Street Fighter IV: 3D Edition

Well, this seems familiar.

This is the big one that many people would say is the best game to come out on the 3DS's launch day. It's hard to disagree with that assessment (though I can certainly make a case against it), but regardless of the quality of its launch day competition, it's, Super Street Fighter IV. All of the same fighting action with optional touch screen special attack shortcuts and without the ability to use fight sticks. Which must drive the purists absolutely crazy. I love it.

Well, no, I don't really love it all that much. While a fun game, certainly the one with the best online support of the three fighting games I'm highlighting, it is Street Fighter to a fault. Though I initially had fun in the single-player mode, getting used to the different characters and earning points to unlock figures, I've run into the same barriers that I hit when I played the game's console-based original and Super variants. The first is that the game depends entirely too much on nostalgia. While this was an excellent tactic for the original Street Fighter IV, Super doesn't really do much to infuse it with anything new. I enjoy playing Juri, no doubt, but she and Hakan were the only two all-new characters added, and Hakan is pretty stupid.

The second is that too many damn characters play almost the exact same way. The 2D fighting genre is ripe for variety in style, which I'll expound on more a bit later, but Super Street Fighter IV plays it too safe. There are too many characters that are based upon the same concept of fireball + dragon punch variant, with the addition of a super kick of some sort, whether it be the hurricane kick, tiger knee, or what have you. My interest in Arcade Edition was killed the moment that they announced Evil Ryu and Oni (a.k.a.: Eviler Akuma).

Seriously, Capcom? What?

That being said, there's also not much variety to the modes, either. Sure, there's standard arcade, online, and challenges, but as other fighting games have proven, it's possible to have a greater all-around experience if more attention is paid to the single-player content in addition to the multiplayer. The game is Street Fighter, which is fine, but it's hard to find anything more complimentary than that.

Dead or Alive: Dimensions

'Sup, Ridle...wait, what?

Okay, let's put this aside at the start. Yes there be boobs. Yes, they be bouncing. It wouldn't be Dead or Alive if they didn't. With that out of the way, however, right out of the gate, Dead or Alive: Dimensions has shown itself to be, more than any of these the three games I'm talking about, much more thoroughly designed for the 3DS hardware. It has a form of StreetPass, but rather than SSFIV's figure battles, players actually download the fight data of others and can enter single-match challenges against a CPU controlled version of the StreetPass partner's preferred character. DOAD has figures as well, but these are items purely included as an extra, and once again, unlike SSFIV, can be unlocked in pretty much every mode in the game, including online. There's no silly Figure Slots game.

Speaking of extras, the traditional excess of costumes is present in full force as well. They can be unlocked during gameplay. Play Coins can be spent for random prizes; most commonly for new costumes or figures. And more than any other 3DS game thus far, DOAD has taken full advantage of SpotPass by offering up a daily costume download since launch that is as of this writing still in process.

Also worth mentioning is the Chronicle mode, which is a story mode recap of the events of DOA1-4. It is, in some ways, like the story mode in Mortal Kombat, stringing the narrative together with cutscenes. Somethings it does better, some things it does worse. On the downside, the story doesn't flow as smoothly as in MK; there are moments where it feels disjointed. Sometimes characters are introduced in scenes just to give them a reason to be there with nothing more than lip service to their backstories. On the other hand, the game uses Chronicle mode as a far more capable tutorial than MK's story by gradually introducing the concepts of the DOA fighting system over time. For someone like me, whose only previous experience came from DOA2: Hardcore and some DOA4, this was a nice touch. The mode is also structured a bit better and is divided into selectable chapters that can be returned to at any time, unlike MK, which lacks a chapter-select option.

And it needs to be said; none of the bosses are anywhere on the level of the fun-destroying idiocy that is facing Shao Kahn at the end of MK's story. That's worth bonus points right there.

Overall, the package is one that's better than SSFIV in most every way. The only thing it doesn't exceed SSFIV at is the online play, and what differences there are could be described as minor, at best. A relatively small number of matches have been loaded with lag, though for the most part the connections I've had are smooth. The only real downside to the set-up is that matches against strangers are one-and-done. Rematches aren't an option. That being said, however, it's fun enough that I've played the online far more than I've ever touched it in SSFIV.

BlazBlue: Continuum Shift II

Marvel's Squirrel Girl would be proud.

A portable version of the arcade game, BlazBlue: Continuum Shift II is loaded with singleplayer options out the wazoo. There's the story mode, the arcade mode, the Abyss endurance mode, a challenge mode, hell, even a strategy game. And that's in addition to a full-fledged tutorial hosted by the condescending and brutal Rachel Alucard as well as a separate training mode. It has the looks and sounds of its console brethren. And the only thing it's missing, and I mean the only thing, is online play.

Wait, you're thinking. What? A fighting game without online? A fighting game from a series that has online play on consoles doesn't have online on the 3DS? Well, yeah. I'm being pretty straight-forward here. Continuum Shift II only offers multiplayer through local wireless. Unless you have 3DS owning friends locally that are also interested in the game, there's little hope for multiplayer action. Well, unless you own the console versions.

So why even bother with this version? Well, all that other stuff I mentioned is still pretty awesome, and if you want some single-player BB action on the go, then you can't really go wrong here. The 3D effect on the graphics is also pretty well done, given that the characters are 2D sprites. And well, frankly, online or no, I feel that the game is the superior of SSFIV.

Allow me to explain. Remember my big complaints with SSFIV? Particularly the complaint that too many characters play the same? Yeah, not an issue here. Sure, the cast is smaller, but the characters are unique in their moves and play styles; it doesn't have the problem of eight characters with fighting styles based off of the same mass production template. (And people are excited for Evil Ryu. What the hell? Can someone explain this to me with the mindset of a reasonable human being?) And the presentation is filled to the brim with a personality all its own, from the way the characters animate and are voiced to the fighting system that, though my lack of fighting game expertise may blind me, feels far more complex and nuanced than what SSFIV has to offer.

Also, this:

Bang Shishigami's Bang Install theme is so glorious in its brute manliness that it trumps the goddamn universe.

Closing Thoughts

Three very different, fighting games within the span of just a few months for handheld less than half a year old. That's not a bad start. Especially for a genre that didn't receive much attention on the original DS. I'm interested to see where things go from here. All three games above have things going for them (some more than others), and it would be great to see this trend continue.

So long as it avoids the inclusion of Evil Ryu.

Online
#2 Posted by Slax (894 posts) -

That was a very interesting read. I'm planning on getting a 3DS somewhere down the line and it's good to know there are some quality alternatives to SSIV.

#3 Posted by Damodar (1302 posts) -

Being that offended by the similarities of the SF shotokan characters just kinda suggests a lack of a deeper knowledge of those characters.

#4 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@Damodar said:

Being that offended by the similarities of the SF shotokan characters just kinda suggests a lack of a deeper knowledge of those characters.

It's not being offended. It's being tired. Specifically, tired of a specific character type being replicated ad nauseum.

Online
#5 Posted by AjayRaz (12418 posts) -

great read! i had no idea that a Continuum Shift II even existed. i haven't heard anything about it ..  
 
glad to see that DOA is doing well for you. i've put in a good amount of hours into that game since it's release and while the bosses are easy in Chronicle, they'll be turning you inside out in the Tag Challenge mode. those challenges are pretty punishing, and it's a shame that you get no special reward for completing the final challenge, which was probably the most difficult thing that you'll see in the entire game apart from the dudes online. 

#6 Posted by Damodar (1302 posts) -
@Hailinel said:

@Damodar said:

Being that offended by the similarities of the SF shotokan characters just kinda suggests a lack of a deeper knowledge of those characters.

It's not being offended. It's being tired. Specifically, tired of a specific character type being replicated ad nauseum.

Being that tired of the similarities of the SF shotokan characters just kinda suggests a lack of deeper knowledge of those characters.
#7 Posted by MysteriousBob (6272 posts) -

Silly, Dead or Alive isn't a fighting game, its a hentai game.

#8 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@AjayRaz: Continuum Shift II just came out this past week.

Yeah, DOA's Tag Challenge gets crazy. It's a shame that there's no bonus for clearing the final challenge, but the game has enough extras packed in already that I can't really be upset about it. And man, some of those dudes online are dedicated. I think the second day in, I was already facing guys with win/loss records of over a hundred matches.

Online
#9 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@Damodar said:

@Hailinel said:

@Damodar said:

Being that offended by the similarities of the SF shotokan characters just kinda suggests a lack of a deeper knowledge of those characters.

It's not being offended. It's being tired. Specifically, tired of a specific character type being replicated ad nauseum.

Being that tired of the similarities of the SF shotokan characters just kinda suggests a lack of deeper knowledge of those characters.

No, no it doesn't.

Online
#10 Posted by Damodar (1302 posts) -

Yuh huh.

#11 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@Damodar said:

Yuh huh.

Let me guess. Street Fighter fan that doesn't like it when his favorite fighting game is knocked?

Online
#12 Posted by blueduck (964 posts) -
@Damodar said:
Yuh huh.
Yeah, I agree and it makes the post seem sort of stupid. For both the other games you only talk about modes and what the game comes with, however when you talk about street fighter you attack it for how the characters play (the way they have always played in street fighter). It just seems inconsistent and almost like you're looking for something to rate the game down with.
#13 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@blueduck said:

@Damodar said:
Yuh huh.
Yeah, I agree and it makes the post seem sort of stupid. For both the other games you only talk about modes and what the game comes with, however when you talk about street fighter you attack it for how the characters play (the way they have always played in street fighter). It just seems inconsistent and almost like you're looking for something to rate the game down with.

If you're looking for in-depth analysis, go somewhere else. I'm giving my thoughts and impressions on these games, and if you don't agree with the way I see Street Fighter, then that's really not my problem.

Online
#14 Posted by MikeGosot (3227 posts) -

That was great, except by the fact that... Hakan is ultra-awesome. He is weird, sure, but he's awesome.

#15 Posted by AjayRaz (12418 posts) -
@Hailinel: it's kind of crazy that there's over 500 figurines and they're a bit more useful than what SSFIV had to offer. i've only unlocked about 8% of them and i've cleared all of the offline content.  
 
the online players are pretty nuts, but i avoid the players who played like 600 matches. i've found those dudes like to abuse Hayabusa's projectile, which i'm still curious as to why they even decided to put that in as an actual move. i've been playing it slowly, having played about 20 matches since release and lost about two. lots of intense matches, and i'm having a good time. like i said, we should really play sometime! 
#16 Posted by blueduck (964 posts) -
@Hailinel said:

@blueduck said:

@Damodar said:
Yuh huh.
Yeah, I agree and it makes the post seem sort of stupid. For both the other games you only talk about modes and what the game comes with, however when you talk about street fighter you attack it for how the characters play (the way they have always played in street fighter). It just seems inconsistent and almost like you're looking for something to rate the game down with.

If you're looking for in-depth analysis, go somewhere else. I'm giving my thoughts and impressions on these games, and if you don't agree with the way I see Street Fighter, then that's really not my problem.

I'm not looking for an in-depth review I'm pointing out  a huge inconsistency in how you wrote and compared the games. 
#17 Posted by TehFlan (1944 posts) -

Yeah, the variety in BlazBlue's characters has always been one of my favorite parts of those games. I'll definitely be picking Continuum Shift II up once I can justify buying a 3DS.

#18 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@blueduck: Probably because outside of the base fighting and online, SSFIV doesn't really come with much. And I make comparisons to it against the other games in their own sections.

Online
#19 Posted by MikeGosot (3227 posts) -

Also, people are excited for Evil Ryu because he's cooler than Ryu, but in terms of gameplay, he's just like Ryu(But he does more damage).

#20 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@MikeGosot said:

Also, people are excited for Evil Ryu because he's cooler than Ryu, but in terms of gameplay, he's just like Ryu(But he does more damage).

I doubt this. "Super Evil" doesn't inherently mean "cooler." And the game really doesn't a Ryu with higher damage.

Online
#21 Posted by Damodar (1302 posts) -
@Hailinel said:

@blueduck: Probably because outside of the base fighting and online, SSFIV doesn't really come with much. And I make comparisons to it against the other games in their own sections.

You don't ever really properly talk about gameplay anywhere though. Plus modes in fighting games that are versus AI are basically worthless. When fighting games make you grind through that crap to unlock content, it's horrible.
#22 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@Damodar said:

@Hailinel said:

@blueduck: Probably because outside of the base fighting and online, SSFIV doesn't really come with much. And I make comparisons to it against the other games in their own sections.

You don't ever really properly talk about gameplay anywhere though. Plus modes in fighting games that are versus AI are basically worthless. When fighting games make you grind through that crap to unlock content, it's horrible.

You're one of those super-competitive, "who gives a shit about story and character personality when there's TEH FIGHT" guys, aren't you?

Online
#23 Posted by Damodar (1302 posts) -
@MikeGosot said:
Also, people are excited for Evil Ryu because he's cooler than Ryu, but in terms of gameplay, he's just like Ryu(But he does more damage).
I don't think that's true at all. I don't think the two characters even have any of the same normals. 
 
People are excited for Evil Ryu because he's a new character for that game. He plays differently and uses the screen differently.
#24 Posted by blueduck (964 posts) -
@Hailinel said:

@Damodar said:

@Hailinel said:

@blueduck: Probably because outside of the base fighting and online, SSFIV doesn't really come with much. And I make comparisons to it against the other games in their own sections.

You don't ever really properly talk about gameplay anywhere though. Plus modes in fighting games that are versus AI are basically worthless. When fighting games make you grind through that crap to unlock content, it's horrible.

You're one of those super-competitive, "who gives a shit about story and character personality when there's TEH FIGHT" guys, aren't you?

You're one of those guys who can't and won't address criticism and instead just makes personal attacks. 
#25 Posted by Damodar (1302 posts) -
@Hailinel said:

@Damodar said:

@Hailinel said:

@blueduck: Probably because outside of the base fighting and online, SSFIV doesn't really come with much. And I make comparisons to it against the other games in their own sections.

You don't ever really properly talk about gameplay anywhere though. Plus modes in fighting games that are versus AI are basically worthless. When fighting games make you grind through that crap to unlock content, it's horrible.

You're one of those super-competitive, "who gives a shit about story and character personality when there's TEH FIGHT" guys, aren't you?

You mean is the fighting my favourite part of fighting games? Yeah, it is. What are you?
#26 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@Damodar: A guy that enjoys fighting, but also enjoys a good story and characters and is more willing to play games that feature an entertaining cast with an interesting plot.

@blueduck: You have yet to give a critical analysis of the flaws in my blog post to prove your point.

Online
#27 Posted by CookieMonster (2416 posts) -

I like Scorpion.

#28 Posted by CaptainCody (1505 posts) -

JAPANESE FIGHTING GAMES ARE THE BEST FIGHTING GAMES EVER. Except anything Capcom, TOO MAINSTREAM FOR ME BRO, need mah Hentai fighting games with grievous amounts of cleavage.
#29 Posted by blueduck (964 posts) -
@Hailinel said:

@Damodar: A guy that enjoys fighting, but also enjoys a good story and characters and is more willing to play games that feature an entertaining cast with an interesting plot.

@blueduck: You have yet to give a critical analysis of the flaws in my blog post to prove your point.

Alright I will flush out my point more for you. For each game you talk about modes and what each game comes with out of the box. Had your review or whatever it is stayed with those points it would have been fine however your article then attempts to address the way the characters play. This in itself takes your article to a whole different level, one where I thought you would talk about the way the cast of characters plays for each game. You do not do this. You simply say the characters are bland in SSF4 (this is something I've even said myself so i can see where you are coming from) but when you go into the next part of the review (DOA) you say nothing of this nature about that game ( which in my opinion has way blander characters unless you just really like anime girls and their boobs) you don't even talk about the cast and how they play like you did with your criticism of SSF4. When you get to the last game you bring it back up but only to say that this last game does it better than SSF4. Honestly the way you write this it should have been called "Games that I think do things better than SSF4". 
#30 Posted by JJOR64 (18909 posts) -

HAKAN IS GODLIKE! HOW DARE YOU DISRESPECT THE TURKISH WARRIOR! GET ON XBOX LIVE AND I WILL SHOW YOU THE POTENTIAL OF HAKAN!!!!!
 

#31 Posted by Slaker117 (4835 posts) -
@Hailinel: How dare you not prefer a game with refined mechanics simply because it's lacking in every other department! The only thing you are allowed to care about is the raw hard competitive aspect of fighting games. It's wholly unreasonable to treat them as you would another genre and judge the package as a whole.
#32 Edited by masterherocard (419 posts) -

I can't really make much of an argument for or against DOA, but I have to say that the fighting in SSF4 appealed to me more (Maybe because I've played street fighter more than blazblue...). However, there is definitely more to blazblue, both in terms of differences between characters, and modes outside of arcade and versus. I'm really considering getting DOA, though.
 
Also, Bang is awesome, no arguments there.

#33 Posted by Damodar (1302 posts) -
@Slaker117 said:
@Hailinel: How dare you not prefer a game with refined mechanics simply because it's lacking in every other department! The only thing you are allowed to care about is the raw hard competitive aspect of fighting games. It's wholly unreasonable to treat them as you would another genre and judge the package as a whole.
  
While that's enourmously witty, where's the problem in a developer putting their effort in to the balance and polish of the gameplay and leaving out filler single player modes? The utter basic core fundamentals of any fighting game completely break apart when confronted with AI. It's a complete waste of time. Consider the amount of development work between creating a time attack or survival mode vs the amount of time and work it creates to balance 1500 different character matchups. Consider the results of each. A throwaway mode or something that will give the game legs that keeps up it's popularity for years. Your priorities can lie wherever you wish them to, but I'm at peace with the logic behind mine.
#34 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@blueduck: You could have just asked what I felt about their fighting systems and characters, man.

I like the DOA characters well enough. They're a colorful bunch, and the Chronicle mode helped give me a lot of the context and perspective behind at least a good chunk of them. But like I said, the story mode is uneven. As for how it plays as a 3D fighting game, it's a different beast than SSFIV and BlazBlue. There's a rock-paper-scissors aspect to the combat between strikes, holds, and thorws that I'm still trying to get down, but even with the technical complexity, it's pretty easy to just pick up and play.

As for BlazBlue, the game feels faster and more exciting to me simply because the characters play so differently from one another. There aren't eight shotokan characters; it doesn't matter how differently those SSFIV shotos actually play when viewed in detail. Litchi has a rod she can wield, throw, or place around the arena. Carl is constantly partnered with a robot assistant that serves as the basis of his fighting style. Ragna's Drive attacks drain stamina from his opponents and restores his own. And the game's boss, Hazama not only has a toxic field around himself that makes the act of getting close to him hurt, he's also, personality-wise, the most insane, abusive dickbag of a boss I've seen in any fighting game. Shao Kahn says it's official that you suck. Hazama will do his best to emasculate with his psychotic rants before the fight even starts.

We can continue this conversation if you like, and I can answer more questions about my views on the games, or not. It's your choice.

@CaptainCody: There aren't any western fighting games on the 3DS yet. GG.

Online
#35 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@Damodar said:

@Slaker117 said:
@Hailinel: How dare you not prefer a game with refined mechanics simply because it's lacking in every other department! The only thing you are allowed to care about is the raw hard competitive aspect of fighting games. It's wholly unreasonable to treat them as you would another genre and judge the package as a whole.
While that's enourmously witty, where's the problem in a developer putting their effort in to the balance and polish of the gameplay and leaving out filler single player modes? The utter basic core fundamentals of any fighting game completely break apart when confronted with AI. It's a complete waste of time. Consider the amount of development work between creating a time attack or survival mode vs the amount of time and work it creates to balance 1500 different character matchups. Consider the results of each. A throwaway mode or something that will give the game legs that keeps up it's popularity for years. Your priorities can lie wherever you wish them to, but I'm at peace with the logic behind mine.

Why should single-player modes be rendered as filler? And how, exactly, does the development of a time attack mode impede the development of character balance? You may consider your argument logical, but it's very unsound.

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#36 Posted by Slaker117 (4835 posts) -
@Damodar: It perfectly fine to want that, but it's silly to berate a person because they don't play at such a level and thus don't care about an huge amount about fine balance and such. I highly doubt a competitive scene is going to form around the 3DS version of SSF4, and given that it's a port job, all the work in figuring out how many frames a move will take has already been done. I'll agree that Street Fighter is second to none at serving the competitive fighting game audience, and commend Capcom for that, but to more casual players, something that you are even more likely to find on a portable platform, it is lacking in many regards, and not something I would recommend to people who don't have the time to learn all the intracases of pvp.
#37 Posted by RecSpec (3764 posts) -

No, Punch Time Explosion? I am appalled.

#38 Posted by JJOR64 (18909 posts) -
@RecSpec said:

No, Punch Time Explosion? I am appalled.

It's not out yet till next week.  Then we can talk about it.
#39 Posted by Damodar (1302 posts) -

I'm not saying time spent balancing impedes the time spent developing time attack modes. I'm saying I think there is a skewed perception of the amount of work that was put in to the game because it doesn't have some superfluous mode. I'm saying don't judge it by the lack of easily implemented modes that aren't really of any worth, judge it by the extreme balance in the gameplay. 
 
As for why single player is bunk, AI is completely worthless to play against. Fighting games are basically entirely about getting in to the head of your opponent. Trying to know what they're going to do, trying to goad them in to doing what you want them to do etc. You can't do this at all with AI. You can't mix up AI. The AI doesn't analyze the ambiguity of a cross-up when it rolls a random number to see if it's blocked or not. It doesn't recognise patterns or habits and adapt according. You basically just find glaring logic holes with traps that it always falls for. You don't have to even be remotely good at fighting games to appreciate human vs human is infinitely more interesting than vs CPU will ever be. I'm not saying that everyone should devote themselves to these games to be the best in the world. If you can get a story in your games that's not crap (which Street Fighter's absolutely is), then that's great. But AI and how fighting games actually work at the most basic level don't mix at all.

#40 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@Damodar:That mentality is all fine and dandy if you're a competitive player, but to others, there's more to these games than just beating human opponents. To call single-player modes of any sort superfluous is indicative of how skewed your mindset is. A finely balanced game is desirable, but balance isn't the only thing that matters.

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#41 Edited by Mento (2441 posts) -

Man, someone's disturbed a hornet's nest here. I think the issue is that Hailinel's post is focusing on the features that are being introduced to win back the slightly more casual fans of the genre. Stuff like the many modes, collectibles and focus on storytelling, are the sorts of things these newer fighters are obviously pushing to attract gamers who dig those features in other genres they like. Meanwhile, the faithful hardcore fans are simply interested in mastering the pure mechanics of what might as well be an indistinct series of wireframes. Pointing out how similar Ken and Ryu are to those guys is like saying how similar Mozart and Liszt is to a pianist.

I appreciate articles like these, not because I'm particularly into Fighter games (though I've played two this year, which is two more than I usually play), but because there isn't really enough 3DS coverage on-site. I know that's mostly because of the difficulties in recording 3DS playback for Quick Looks, but it still seems unfortunately sparse. As someone who bought a 3DS to replace what is quickly becoming an insensate baby-blue brick, I'd like to see more of these games covered by at least the community, if not the editorial staff.

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#42 Posted by Damodar (1302 posts) -
@Hailinel said:

@Damodar:That mentality is all fine and dandy if you're a competitive player, but to others, there's more to these games than just beating human opponents. To call single-player modes of any sort superfluous is indicative of how skewed your mindset is. A finely balanced game is desirable, but balance isn't the only thing that matters.

Playing fighting games single player is about the equivalent of hitting a ball against a wall vs an actual game of tennis. Except that hitting a ball against a wall could improve your ability somewhat and playing against fighting game AI can really damage the way you play. Who can say who has the skewed mindset?
#43 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@Damodar said:

@Hailinel said:

@Damodar:That mentality is all fine and dandy if you're a competitive player, but to others, there's more to these games than just beating human opponents. To call single-player modes of any sort superfluous is indicative of how skewed your mindset is. A finely balanced game is desirable, but balance isn't the only thing that matters.

Playing fighting games single player is about the equivalent of hitting a ball against a wall vs an actual game of tennis. Except that hitting a ball against a wall could improve your ability somewhat and playing against fighting game AI can really damage the way you play. Who can say who has the skewed mindset?

At least I can have fun in either single or multiplayer, whether it be competing against others locally or online or playing through a story mode, arcade mode, or even just a basic tutorial. That you can't see the benefit or draw of quality single-player content is what is skewed.

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#44 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@Mento said:

Man, someone's disturbed a hornet's nest here. I think the issue is that Hailinel's post is focusing on the features that are being introduced to win back the slightly more casual fans of the genre. Stuff like the many modes, collectibles and focus on storytelling, are the sorts of things these newer fighters are obviously pushing to attract gamers who dig those features in other genres they like. Meanwhile, the faithful hardcore fans are simply interested in mastering the pure mechanics of what might as well be an indistinct series of wireframes. Pointing out how similar Ken and Ryu are to those guys is like saying how similar Mozart and Liszt is to a pianist.I appreciate articles like these, not because I'm particularly into Fighter games (though I've played two this year, which is two more than I usually play), but because there isn't really enough 3DS coverage on-site. I know that's mostly because of the difficulties in recording 3DS playback for Quick Looks, but it still seems unfortunately sparse. As someone who bought a 3DS to replace what is quickly becoming an insensate baby-blue brick, I'd like to see more of these games covered by at least the community, if not the editorial staff.

This, really, is where I'm coming from. I'm not a hardcore competitive player. I like to have options outside of just a basic arcade ladder, practice, and versus modes. This may not be the priority for Street Fighter, but the series leaves itself open to criticism for that same reason.

And I'd love to see more 3DS coverage as well, though I don't know how much we're going to get until they get a 3DS video recorder (assuming that they ever do).

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#45 Edited by ArbitraryWater (11477 posts) -

While it's cool and all that the best games the 3DS currently has are all fighting games (seriously), I'm going to have to side with the people who think that single player modes in most fighting games are bunk. I haven't ever played a DOA game, and my Blazblu experience currently consists of "I got it like three days ago and man I have trouble understanding what is going on half the time, but it seems pretty cool", but I can probably say with some certainty that playing against human beings is infinitely more entertaining and rewarding than beating up the AI over and over again for some pithy bits of story that (for the most part) aren't written that well anyways. What I'm trying to say I guess, is that while I can appreciate your desire for good story and characters in fighting games, your desire is somewhat misplaced as that will never be the focal point and if it is they're doing it wrong anyways. 
 
And, for the record, I'm sure no one is really that excited about Evil Ryu. It's partially because, yes, he's totally lame design-wise, but also because he kind of just looks like he plays like Ryu, with a little Akuma thrown in for good measure. Oni at the very least looks like he plays different from the standard shoto moveset. Regardless, Evil Ryu is small fries compared with the amazingness that is the Kyo Clone team from King of Fighters 2002 Unlimited Match

 No, this is not a joke. They all are different versions of Kyo from the various KOF games up to that point
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#46 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@ArbitraryWater: Regarding deciphering BlazBlue, Continuum Shift contains an excellent tutorial. It won't turn you into a master, but it will help you go from "WHAT IS THIS MADNESS I HAVE NO IDEA" to "Oh, that's what's going on. I'm understanding this now." And as far as stories being "pithy," they have been in the genre, by and large, but that's been changing over the past few years. Each installment in the BlazBlue series has a full-on story mode with branching paths and true endings. The most recent Mortal Kombat went for a cinematic story that cleaned up the messed up canon and was entertaining from start to just before the fight with Shao Kahn at the end. DOAD takes a similar approach.

And it's this approach to story in fighting games that I really, really enjoy. I had wanted a fighting game for years with a coherent, cinematic story mode of some nature, and games are starting to give me just that. Multiplayer will always be a primary draw of the genre, but for those of us with single-player interests, it's nice to see that games are taking the single-player modes and story content far more seriously.

And as far as Evil Ryu, you'd be surprised how stoked some people are to see him in the game. It's bizarre.

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#47 Posted by ArbitraryWater (11477 posts) -
@Hailinel: Mortal Kombat was the weird exception where I actually wanted to play the single player for more than just unlocking stuff. That, and Subspace Emisary from Super Smash Bros Brawl (being the weird fan-fictiony side scroller that at some point practically turns into Kirby)  That story isn't high art or anything, and it doesn't aspire to be, but it's told effectively enough that it is entertaining as opposed to really boring like the SP of MK Armageddon (more on that sucker soon). But I'm never going to play that part of MK again, unless I wanted to grind for easy Krypt Koins I guess. 
 
Yeah, I haven't looked at any of the advanced tutorials for Blazblue yet. You can airdash. And there is a robot girl with crazy projectiles. And the most normal looking character is the dude with green hair who wears a suit. If anything, my main issue is the fairly small (for a fighting game) roster. That complaint may just be skewed by the fact that I've also been playing a lot of SNK fighting games recently and even the games that aren't King of Fighters '98 have freakishly huge rosters. I mean, King of Fighters XI still has only 47 characters despite a lot of series mainstays not being present.
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#48 Posted by GunslingerPanda (4636 posts) -

Woah, had no idea there was a 3DS BlazBlue game. Will be picking that up for sure.

#49 Posted by Hailinel (23905 posts) -

@GunslingerPanda said:

Woah, had no idea there was a 3DS BlazBlue game. Will be picking that up for sure.

Yeah, it just came out in North America this past week, completely under the radar.

@ArbitraryWater said:

@Hailinel: Mortal Kombat was the weird exception where I actually wanted to play the single player for more than just unlocking stuff. That, and Subspace Emisary from Super Smash Bros Brawl (being the weird fan-fictiony side scroller that at some point practically turns into Kirby) That story isn't high art or anything, and it doesn't aspire to be, but it's told effectively enough that it is entertaining as opposed to really boring like the SP of MK Armageddon (more on that sucker soon). But I'm never going to play that part of MK again, unless I wanted to grind for easy Krypt Koins I guess.

Yeah, I haven't looked at any of the advanced tutorials for Blazblue yet. You can airdash. And there is a robot girl with crazy projectiles. And the most normal looking character is the dude with green hair who wears a suit. If anything, my main issue is the fairly small (for a fighting game) roster. That complaint may just be skewed by the fact that I've also been playing a lot of SNK fighting games recently and even the games that aren't King of Fighters '98 have freakishly huge rosters. I mean, King of Fighters XI still has only 47 characters despite a lot of series mainstays not being present.

It's funny you mention Armageddon, because in all honesty, while the game may have a huge cast, it's also, from my experience, terribly poor in the gameplay department. If people want to argue about poor balance in fighting games, it's really a prime example of what not to do. King of Fighters has a huge cast of characters, true, but those games really only have their multiplayer as a strong point, unless you really enjoy your SNK Boss Syndrome.

A fighting game doesn't need an expansive roster of thirty characters to work as long as the characters that are there work well and have variety on their side. BlazBlue does just this. SSFIV, which once again leans very heavily on the numerous games that came before (but primary SFII), has the larger roster, but a far larger than necessary percentage of those characters are all cut from the same cloth. Sure, there's some hemming here and pleating there, but it's still the same cloth.

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#50 Posted by scarace360 (4828 posts) -

Dont talk bad about fighting games / cry.