#1 Posted by moywar700 (174 posts) -


#2 Posted by Shivoa (607 posts) -
#3 Posted by Pavlo (57 posts) -

get the fuck out

#4 Posted by sissylion (679 posts) -

"Having words" isn't the only qualification for literature. Textbooks are more literary than video games are.

#5 Posted by scarace360 (4828 posts) -

@Shivoa said:

No, but it may contain literature.

Open/Shut.

#6 Posted by AhmadMetallic (18955 posts) -

Are they literature how?

#7 Posted by mandude (2669 posts) -

Yes. I love to read games. There's nothing I like more than opening a nice game and reading it by lamplight before going to sleep.

#8 Posted by YI_Orange (1128 posts) -

Are Visual Novels videogames?

#9 Posted by MooseyMcMan (10467 posts) -

No. Literature is text.

Okay, maybe Zork is. Dammit.

#10 Posted by bwheeeler (420 posts) -

Are bananas mammals? What are we doing please help

#11 Posted by AhmadMetallic (18955 posts) -

@bwheeeler said:

Are bananas mammals?

Are they?

#12 Posted by killacam (1284 posts) -

no, but the dreams (they're all prose) in lost odyssey are some really, really well written pieces of fiction. the game itself is, however, still a video game.

#13 Posted by BaneFireLord (2909 posts) -

They are art, but they are not literature. They are video games.

#14 Posted by thatpinguino (699 posts) -

Google dictionary has the answer.

lit·er·a·ture

Noun:

  1. Written works, esp. those considered of superior or lasting artistic merit: "a great work of literature".

  2. Books and writings published on a particular subject: "the literature on environmental epidemiology".

All power to google.

#15 Posted by moywar700 (174 posts) -

The meaning of Literature means creative writing of recognized artistic value.Literature is merely creative writing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53GwCg_yP8s 00:00-03:23

In this video, you look at a perspective of a sea monster.The game has rich narrative text which makes the game very good.I think this video game is literature(to me) because it has creative writing.

#16 Posted by JasonR86 (9605 posts) -

Does it matter?

Online
#17 Posted by Deusx (1903 posts) -

Are computers monkeys?

#18 Posted by the_OFFICIAL_jAPanese_teaBAG (4307 posts) -
@Deusx said:

Are computers monkeys?

Now thats just racist
#19 Posted by moywar700 (174 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

Does it matter?

If creative writing(literature) doesn't matter to you, I guess not.

#20 Posted by moywar700 (174 posts) -

@thatpinguino said:

Google dictionary has the answer.

lit·er·a·ture

Noun:

  1. Written works, esp. those considered of superior or lasting artistic merit: "a great work of literature".

  2. Books and writings published on a particular subject: "the literature on environmental epidemiology".

All power to google.

Thank you for proving my point.

#21 Posted by rentfn (1277 posts) -

If I have a B.A. in Literature can I apply to Harmonix and Irrational instead of teach 11th grade??

#22 Posted by moywar700 (174 posts) -

@rentfn said:

If I have a B.A. in Literature can I apply to Harmonix and Irrational instead of teach 11th grade??

You may work as a story writing for them.

#23 Posted by blackichigo (168 posts) -

@the_OFFICIAL_jAPanese_teaBAG: Is it racist you thought it was racist.

#24 Posted by the_OFFICIAL_jAPanese_teaBAG (4307 posts) -
@blackichigo said:

@the_OFFICIAL_jAPanese_teaBAG: Is it racist you thought it was racist.

Yeah, I think that was pretty racist of me.  Is it racist for me to think "hey, strawberries are red, not black!"
#25 Posted by Sargus (722 posts) -

@moywar700 said:

The meaning of Literature means creative writing of recognized artistic value.Literature is merely creative writing.

As someone who majored in Creative Writing and also loves video games ... no, not really.

I would not call a great movie literature. I would not call a great game literature. I would not call great music literature. Now a book? A book is literature.

That is not to say that movies, games and music aren't (or can not be) art, but that's a completely different word with a completely different meaning. Similarly, movies, games and music can have amazing writing, creative or not. That doesn't make them literature.

I think you're trying to stretch the word "literature" to make it mean something it doesn't. No matter how great games become -- even if they have writing that ends up rivaling the best novels in history -- they won't technically be "literature."

Literary? Maybe. I could say System Shock 2 is a very literary game (like I believe Harvey Smith did during a Quakecon 2012 panel "Looking Back at Looking Glass"). But I would not say it is literature.

#26 Posted by moywar700 (174 posts) -

@Sargus said:

@moywar700 said:

The meaning of Literature means creative writing of recognized artistic value.Literature is merely creative writing.

As someone who majored in Creative Writing and also loves video games ... no, not really.

I would not call a great movie literature. I would not call a great game literature. I would not call great music literature. Now a book? A book is literature.

That is not to say that movies, games and music aren't (or can not be) art, but that's a completely different word with a completely different meaning. Similarly, movies, games and music can have amazing writing, creative or not. That doesn't make them literature.

I think you're trying to stretch the word "literature" to make it mean something it doesn't. No matter how great games become -- even if they have writing that ends up rivaling the best novels in history -- they won't technically be "literature."

Literary? Maybe. I could say System Shock 2 is a very literary game (like I believe Harvey Smith did during a Quakecon 2012 panel "Looking Back at Looking Glass"). But I would not say it is literature.

Why don't you think it can't be Literature?

#27 Edited by Beforet (2912 posts) -

I would say a video game's script is literature in the same way a movie's or play's script is literature. But the final product, the video game itself, is a collaborative effort involving combining several elements, literature being one of them for some games.

#28 Posted by D_W (1123 posts) -

If the game is told mainly through text and little else then yes, it is literature.  
Videos games as a medium is interesting because they can take on elements from all other forms of art, often at the same time, in a way that no other medium can. That's one of the best things about them.
 
(also I'm disappointed in the majority of responses to this thread. tsk tsk tsk)

#29 Posted by Terramagi (1159 posts) -

Depends.

Planescape: Torment is basically a book.

Deus Ex predicted 9/11 and everything else that's happened in the last 10 years.

CoD? Maybe not so much.

#30 Posted by hangedtoaster (156 posts) -
@mandude: Your post makes me sad, because I miss big old instruction booklets that used to contain pages and pages of things to read late at night! Now it's a piece of paper with some legal garbage on it =(
#31 Posted by cthomer5000 (743 posts) -

Is pepperoni ice cream?

#32 Posted by Sargus (722 posts) -

@moywar700 said:

@Sargus said:

@moywar700 said:

The meaning of Literature means creative writing of recognized artistic value.Literature is merely creative writing.

As someone who majored in Creative Writing and also loves video games ... no, not really.

I would not call a great movie literature. I would not call a great game literature. I would not call great music literature. Now a book? A book is literature.

That is not to say that movies, games and music aren't (or can not be) art, but that's a completely different word with a completely different meaning. Similarly, movies, games and music can have amazing writing, creative or not. That doesn't make them literature.

I think you're trying to stretch the word "literature" to make it mean something it doesn't. No matter how great games become -- even if they have writing that ends up rivaling the best novels in history -- they won't technically be "literature."

Literary? Maybe. I could say System Shock 2 is a very literary game (like I believe Harvey Smith did during a Quakecon 2012 panel "Looking Back at Looking Glass"). But I would not say it is literature.

Why don't you think it can't be Literature?

Because literature is use of the written word more or less exclusively. Something penned by an author or authors and visible on a page -- even an electronic page. Not moving pictures, not interactive programs ...

I even take some issue with the concept of plays being literature, though they're much closer to just being spoken word books (which we have to include for the sake of works like The Odyssey, which were told orally), so I'm more likely to give them a pass, I guess.

Now, as has been said before in this thread, you could possibly make a case for a game's script being literature, but I think that would be silly -- a script isn't meant to be digested on its own. It's meant to be a tool used in the creation of a final, more artful product. It still takes a whole heck of a lot of skill to create, obviously, but it's an altogether different form of writing than, say, a novel.

Games are beautiful in that they encompass a little bit of so many art forms, from music to writing to acting to aesthetics to performance, etc. But I wouldn't call a game a piece of literature because it has great writing any more than I would call Bastion an album because it has great music.

You could maybe, mayyyyybe make a case for, say, a text adventure (a la Zork). I still personally think the interactive nature that goes into it (which requires programming, which is a separate entity than the basic writing) eliminates it from what I see as "literature," but I wouldn't argue that issue with someone too passionately.

#33 Posted by Godlyawesomeguy (6385 posts) -

It would be so cool if so many users weren't repeating the same tired joke, and would just answer the OP's question.

#34 Edited by Willtron (243 posts) -

@Sargus said:

@moywar700 said:

The meaning of Literature means creative writing of recognized artistic value.Literature is merely creative writing.

As someone who majored in Creative Writing and also loves video games ... no, not really.

I would not call a great movie literature. I would not call a great game literature. I would not call great music literature. Now a book? A book is literature.

That is not to say that movies, games and music aren't (or can not be) art, but that's a completely different word with a completely different meaning. Similarly, movies, games and music can have amazing writing, creative or not. That doesn't make them literature.

I think you're trying to stretch the word "literature" to make it mean something it doesn't. No matter how great games become -- even if they have writing that ends up rivaling the best novels in history -- they won't technically be "literature."

Literary? Maybe. I could say System Shock 2 is a very literary game (like I believe Harvey Smith did during a Quakecon 2012 panel "Looking Back at Looking Glass"). But I would not say it is literature.

This, essentially.

The only argument I can see for video games as literature is making a case for text adventures--as stated before, God damn.

And excuse my ignorance, but it takes a bit of coding to get novels in a format that eBooks can read. So could the same argument be made for a text adventure? It's in the way you present it, to me, more so than actually 'playing' a 'traditional' video game. To me, text adventures video game equivalents of Goosebumps: Choose Your Own Adventure books. And shitty or not, those are literature. So I think an argument can be made for text adventures. Kinda.

That all said, games are literary, sure. Games are definitely art. They aren't literature.

#35 Edited by moywar700 (174 posts) -

@Sargus said:

@moywar700 said:

@Sargus said:

@moywar700 said:

The meaning of Literature means creative writing of recognized artistic value.Literature is merely creative writing.

As someone who majored in Creative Writing and also loves video games ... no, not really.

I would not call a great movie literature. I would not call a great game literature. I would not call great music literature. Now a book? A book is literature.

That is not to say that movies, games and music aren't (or can not be) art, but that's a completely different word with a completely different meaning. Similarly, movies, games and music can have amazing writing, creative or not. That doesn't make them literature.

I think you're trying to stretch the word "literature" to make it mean something it doesn't. No matter how great games become -- even if they have writing that ends up rivaling the best novels in history -- they won't technically be "literature."

Literary? Maybe. I could say System Shock 2 is a very literary game (like I believe Harvey Smith did during a Quakecon 2012 panel "Looking Back at Looking Glass"). But I would not say it is literature.

Why don't you think it can't be Literature?

Because literature is use of the written word more or less exclusively. Something penned by an author or authors and visible on a page -- even an electronic page. Not moving pictures, not interactive programs ...

I even take some issue with the concept of plays being literature, though they're much closer to just being spoken word books (which we have to include for the sake of works like The Odyssey, which were told orally), so I'm more likely to give them a pass, I guess.

Now, as has been said before in this thread, you could possibly make a case for a game's script being literature, but I think that would be silly -- a script isn't meant to be digested on its own. It's meant to be a tool used in the creation of a final, more artful product. It still takes a whole heck of a lot of skill to create, obviously, but it's an altogether different form of writing than, say, a novel.

Games are beautiful in that they encompass a little bit of so many art forms, from music to writing to acting to aesthetics to performance, etc. But I wouldn't call a game a piece of literature because it has great writing any more than I would call Bastion an album because it has great music.

You could maybe, mayyyyybe make a case for, say, a text adventure (a la Zork). I still personally think the interactive nature that goes into it (which requires programming, which is a separate entity than the basic writing) eliminates it from what I see as "literature," but I wouldn't argue that issue with someone too passionately.

So you don't see video games are literature because they are moving pictures and interactive?

#36 Posted by Sargus (722 posts) -

@moywar700: Well I'd say there's a lot more to it than that (they don't offer entire philosophy courses on things like art and aesthetics because this kind of thing is always cut and dry), but sure, if you want to be extremely simplistic.

Again, literature being, by definition, related to writing (if you wanna be all about Merriam-Webster: "writings in prose or verse"), you can in some sense have literature in a game, but it cannot be a game itself.

I mean, let's look at music. By definition, music is "the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity." Games have that, right? Some games (like Sound Shapes) are built around the entire concept!

But you would never call a game music. You say a game has music in it, or you say a game is very musical, but the game itself is not music. Music is sound -- games are much more than sound. That's part of what makes them games.

Games are also much more than writing. They can be very well written, to the point where, if the writing stood alone, you might call that writing "literature," but the game itself is not literature.

#37 Posted by SJSchmidt93 (4884 posts) -

They are, by definition, not literature. What the fuck?

#38 Posted by believer258 (11629 posts) -

@Sargus said:

@moywar700: Well I'd say there's a lot more to it than that (they don't offer entire philosophy courses on things like art and aesthetics because this kind of thing is always cut and dry), but sure, if you want to be extremely simplistic.

Again, literature being, by definition, related to writing (if you wanna be all about Merriam-Webster: "writings in prose or verse"), you can in some sense have literature in a game, but it cannot be a game itself.

I mean, let's look at music. By definition, music is "the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity." Games have that, right? Some games (like Sound Shapes) are built around the entire concept!

But you would never call a game music. You say a game has music in it, or you say a game is very musical, but the game itself is not music. Music is sound -- games are much more than sound. That's part of what makes them games.

Games are also much more than writing. They can be very well written, to the point where, if the writing stood alone, you might call that writing "literature," but the game itself is not literature.

You've definitely got more patience than everyone else in this thread.

No, I wouldn't say that games are literature, and my reasoning lines up perfectly with Sargus's.

#39 Posted by moywar700 (174 posts) -

@Sargus said:

@moywar700: Well I'd say there's a lot more to it than that (they don't offer entire philosophy courses on things like art and aesthetics because this kind of thing is always cut and dry), but sure, if you want to be extremely simplistic.

Again, literature being, by definition, related to writing (if you wanna be all about Merriam-Webster: "writings in prose or verse"), you can in some sense have literature in a game, but it cannot be a game itself.

I mean, let's look at music. By definition, music is "the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity." Games have that, right? Some games (like Sound Shapes) are built around the entire concept!

But you would never call a game music. You say a game has music in it, or you say a game is very musical, but the game itself is not music. Music is sound -- games are much more than sound. That's part of what makes them games.

Games are also much more than writing. They can be very well written, to the point where, if the writing stood alone, you might call that writing "literature," but the game itself is not literature.

I concede.

#40 Posted by Ace829 (2083 posts) -

@Sargus: Learned something cool today. Thanks.

#41 Posted by JasonR86 (9605 posts) -

@moywar700 said:

@JasonR86 said:

Does it matter?

If creative writing(literature) doesn't matter to you, I guess not.

Not really what I meant. A few things by the way; creative writing does not equate to literature. Video games also do not equate to literature. But it doesn't have to be that way for either case. Also, why would it matter? So what if video games are literature? Does that make anyone's appreciation or lack thereof for video games change? I doubt it. So why should we naval gaze?

Online
#42 Posted by binhoker (82 posts) -

is poll stupid?

#43 Posted by TheSouthernDandy (3783 posts) -

No. Sargus covered it. I'm just gonna say no.