#1 Posted by mano521 (1227 posts) -

This article http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/08/24/xbox-one-vs-ps4-the-console-wars-and-the-attack-of-the-fans/ describes most people found on youtube or reddit. Why do you guys think a lot of people can't talk realistically about consoles instead of taking sides. Its like watching kids screaming about how their dad can beat up your dad. I find that this dialogue seriously hinders what people think of others who take an interest in games. It's not even limited to consoles.

Battlefield VS COD

Street Fighter VS Mortal Kombat (admittedly not to such a great extent)

Discuss. Do you fall into these traps? What are your feelings on it?

#2 Edited by bluefish (498 posts) -

Everybody's got opinions, children take sides.

#3 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (3809 posts) -

@mano521 said:

This article http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/08/24/xbox-one-vs-ps4-the-console-wars-and-the-attack-of-the-fans/ describes most people found on youtube or reddit. Why do you guys think a lot of people can't talk realistically about consoles instead of taking sides. Its like watching kids screaming about how their dad can beat up your dad. I find that this dialogue seriously hinders what people think of others who take an interest in games. It's not even limited to consoles.

Battlefield VS COD

Street Fighter VS Mortal Kombat (admittedly not to such a great extent)

Discuss. Do you fall into these traps? What are your feelings on it?

And for the record, I enjoy playing all four of the games that you mentioned.

Online
#4 Posted by GreggD (4506 posts) -

I like all four of those games too, and ALSO am very vocal about games. However, most of my rants are about nice things, and why can't everybody just get along. A different thing entirely.

#5 Edited by Bribo (605 posts) -

I think it's a form of mental illness.

#6 Posted by Khann (2884 posts) -

I don't think you can really lump Reddit in with Youtube comments..

#7 Posted by Verendus (348 posts) -

Some people refuse to accept that someone's opinion differs from theirs. I do dislike some popular games, but if I mention about it, I explain why instead of saying "lol cod sux"

#8 Edited by Bigandtasty (3203 posts) -

I'm a fanboy concerning the use of "Discuss." to end forum posts. That's because you should never do it.

Anyway, something like League vs. DOTA 2 or PvE vs. PvP sides of any given MMO seem like more contentious debates than MK vs. SF.

Ultimately I think it's stupid but it also extends to iOS vs. Android, Canon vs. Nikon, debates among sports fans, and so on. It might be somewhat more prevalent among the gaming fanbase because of our frequent internet use and overall age/maturity range, but not so much that I think it's a problem that can really be singled out with any effectiveness.

#9 Edited by MattyFTM (14415 posts) -

People spend a lot of money on games consoles. They want to think they've made the right decision and made a good purchase. They'll try to justify their purchases by talking those up, whilst talking down the alternative choices they could have made. It's a totally natural reaction. We all do it to a certain degree. Some people, mostly kids, just take it further than others. The majority will grow up and realize what idiots they are.

Moderator
#10 Posted by TruthTellah (9294 posts) -

@mano521:

WEST SIIIIIIDE!!

http://31.media.tumblr.com/eb53abb56c03def9e0773d9ed54fc427/tumblr_mfgpf342RC1rmzav7o1_400.gif

EAST SIIIIIIIDE!!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/d823b841633e23de49bfb5f66e93d77d/tumblr_moy1m7IsTJ1s9vqhlo1_500.gif

#11 Posted by TruthTellah (9294 posts) -

MY SIDE:

http://i47.tinypic.com/347dyjc.jpg

#12 Posted by Slag (4603 posts) -

Tribalism

#13 Edited by Rick_Fingers (523 posts) -

Kids are raised to believe they can never be wrong about anything, creating a situation where everyone is right and everyone is wrong and every dumb discussion about any old shit becomes a moronic pissing contest

#14 Edited by TruthTellah (9294 posts) -

@rick_fingers said:

Kids are raised to believe they can never be wrong about anything, creating a situation where everyone is right and everyone is right and every dumb discussion about any old shit becomes a moronic pissing contest

To be fair to today's kids, this isn't a recent issue, and it's certainly not limited to gaming or just kids or young adults. Some of the worst things I read and worst arguments I ever hear online are from people over 30. That's because this isn't new, and it isn't unique. It's tribalism fed through a relatively new form of communication that humanity has hardly acclimated to yet.

#15 Edited by SpaceInsomniac (3809 posts) -

@truthtellah said:

@rick_fingers said:

Kids are raised to believe they can never be wrong about anything, creating a situation where everyone is right and everyone is right and every dumb discussion about any old shit becomes a moronic pissing contest

To be fair to today's kids, this isn't a recent issue, and it's certainly not limited to gaming or just kids or young adults. Some of the worst things I read and worst arguments I ever hear online are from people over 30. That's because this isn't new, and it isn't unique. It's tribalism fed through a relatively new form of communication that humanity has hardly acclimated to yet.

What relatively new form of communication? The internet? Console wars were just as bad before the internet. Even the companies themselves took shots at each other in ads, which is something I haven't seen for a while:

And no matter what type of venom some PS4 fan ends up throwing at some Xbox One fan, all of this pales in comparison to the hate and bile spewed forth in this country every four years. And even THAT is noting even remotely new.

People talk shit about other people when they disagree. It happens now, it happened over 200 years ago, and it's been happening since a LONG time before that.

I know I'm mostly agreeing with you here--the vast majority of my post was directed at those who do think this is something new--but how does "a relatively new form of communication" come into the discussion?

Online
#16 Posted by Rick_Fingers (523 posts) -

@truthtellah: I didn't say it was a new phenomenon, just that that is the way it is. I wasn't raised that way and I struggle to grasp why anyone thinks like that (i get it as a concept, but it makes no sense to me at all)

#17 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -

I believe tolerance and respect will be the downfall of man, for when you start to tolerate the weak stupid twisted and wicked, or the all out evil, all hope is lost. Idealism is meant to be a source of strength. More and more, ideals have become an excuse for weakness.

Belittling people who feel strongly one way or the other isn't the answer. There is right and wrong. There are matters of fact and there is opinion. Especially when it comes to pop culture like videogames, trifling matters will be discussed and fussed over at length, and of course that's bound to be ridiculous to the uninvolved. However, I believe that conflict is healthy, as long as it's not destructive.

It's the day we run out of trifling matters to argue about is what I fear, and maybe also long for a little. Or just much more pressing matters becoming unignorable. So really, you should be grateful to live in a time that's brought forth vocal gamers and the likes, for they've tapped into a bottomless well of trivial conflicts to be fought, and thus are hopefully harmless and docile 'til your days run out, so you can reasonably expect to live it out in relative peace. At least as long as nobody loses it over videogames, that is.

As a first step, a strong and healthy society would have to enforce civility on the internet, is what I say! It's not the vocal you have a problem with, it's the uncivil.

#18 Posted by TruthTellah (9294 posts) -

@spaceinsomniac: He specifically mentioned gamers online at places like youtube or reddit; so, I was just addressing the additional aspect of how humanity's lack of adjustment to the Internet is making it nastier now than it may be in the future as people acclimate to it further. I certainly remember how gaming was before the Internet, and it certainly had its own tribalism. Those who view this as a recent problem are only looking through a very narrow lens.

#19 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (3809 posts) -

@spaceinsomniac: He specifically mentioned gamers online at places like youtube or reddit; so, I was just addressing the additional aspect of how humanity's lack of adjustment to the Internet is making it nastier now than it may be in the future as people acclimate to it further. I certainly remember how gaming was before the Internet, and it certainly had its own tribalism. Those who view this as a recent problem are only looking through a very narrow lens.

Agreed. And as seen in the video that I posted near the start of this thread, there's a good chance that this sort of thing isn't even learned behavior, as frighting as that concept might be.

Online
#20 Edited by TruthTellah (9294 posts) -

@seppli said:

I believe tolerance and respect will be the downfall of man, for when you start to tolerate the weak stupid twisted and wicked, or the all out evil, all hope is lost. Idealism is meant to be a source of strength. More and more, ideals have become an excuse for weakness.

Belittling people who feel strongly one way or the other isn't the answer. There is right and wrong. There are matters of fact and there is opinion. Especially when it comes to pop culture like videogames, trifling matters will be discussed and fussed over at length, and of course that's bound to be ridiculous. However, I believe that conflict is healthy, as long as it's not destructive.

It's the day we run out of trifling matters to argue about is what I fear, and maybe also long for a little. So really, you should be grateful to live in a time that's brought forth vocal gamers and the likes, for they've tapped into an endless well of trivial conflicts to be fought, and thus are hopefully harmless and docile 'til your days run out, and can expect to live it in relative peace. At least as long as nobody loses it over videogames, that is.

I think that you're mistaken, as you partition off the weak, stupid, twisted, and wicked as separate from the rest of humanity. The reality is that they are simply humanity with its assorted flaws on public display. That they are us and we are them does not mean they are not still responsible for the consequences of their weakness, stupidity, twistedness, and wickedness. As we all should be. Yet, the history of humanity has not had so much strife and suffering because of too much tolerance and respect. It has struggled due to the tribalism mentioned here and the prejudice and hatefulness that delude people into destroying one another.

As you noted, arguing is indeed good, and arguing can exist because of differing viewpoints. Differing viewpoints can exist thanks to tolerance and respect. Without those things, any disagreement is reason to be dismissed or crushed, and it is when people embrace that way of thinking that people act tyrannically. It's when people accept that believing they are right gives them justification for doing -anything- to those who do not agree. We see that in all the violence around us. When I see over a thousand innocent people gassed this week in Syria due to them supporting an opposing political side, I do not lament that some people had too much tolerance and respect. I see proud people deluding themselves into believing they can act with impunity.

Tolerance and respect are the ever-growing fruit and backbone of civilization, allowing for multiple, different people to interact with one another without things simply descending into chaos. It is our inherent weaknesses which have led to the expression of the worst within us, not our continued efforts to overcome and manage those weaknesses as best we can. I am different from you, and you and I are different from everyone else in this world. To coexist, we must continue to learn to better understand tolerance and respect for one another.

#21 Posted by cloudnineboya (827 posts) -

My fingers do the talking for me I Have no control, my mind says dude you cant write that!! but my fingers say fuck you i have the power to smash all who comes before me.

#22 Posted by Fattony12000 (7515 posts) -

Nope, I'm just pretty cool all round.

#23 Posted by AlexanderSheen (5036 posts) -

Do you fall into these traps?

No.

What are your feelings on it?

I wish it would stop. Make love not war.

#24 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -

@truthtellah said:

@seppli said:

I believe tolerance and respect will be the downfall of man, for when you start to tolerate the weak stupid twisted and wicked, or the all out evil, all hope is lost. Idealism is meant to be a source of strength. More and more, ideals have become an excuse for weakness.

Belittling people who feel strongly one way or the other isn't the answer. There is right and wrong. There are matters of fact and there is opinion. Especially when it comes to pop culture like videogames, trifling matters will be discussed and fussed over at length, and of course that's bound to be ridiculous. However, I believe that conflict is healthy, as long as it's not destructive.

It's the day we run out of trifling matters to argue about is what I fear, and maybe also long for a little. So really, you should be grateful to live in a time that's brought forth vocal gamers and the likes, for they've tapped into an endless well of trivial conflicts to be fought, and thus are hopefully harmless and docile 'til your days run out, and can expect to live it in relative peace. At least as long as nobody loses it over videogames, that is.

I think that you're mistaken, as you partition off the weak, stupid, twisted, and wicked as separate from the rest of humanity. The reality is that they are simply humanity with its assorted flaws on public display. That they are us and we are them does not mean they are not still responsible for the consequences of their weakness, stupidity, twistedness, and wickedness. As we all should be. Yet, the history of humanity has not had so much strife and suffering because of too much tolerance and respect. It has struggled due to the tribalism mentioned here and the prejudice and hatefulness that delude people into destroying one another.

As you noted, arguing is indeed good, and arguing can exist because of differing viewpoints. Differing viewpoints can exist thanks to tolerance and respect. Without those things, any disagreement is reason to be dismissed or crushed, and it is when people embrace that way of thinking that people act tyrannically. It's when people accept that believing they are right gives them justification for doing -anything- to those who do not agree. We see that in all the violence around us. When I see over a thousand innocent people gassed this week in Syria due to them supporting an opposing political side, I do not lament that some people had too much tolerance and respect. I see proud people deluding themselves into believing they can act with impunity.

Tolerance and respect are the ever-growing fruit and backbone of civilization, allowing for multiple, different people to interact with one another without things simply descending into chaos. It is our inherent weaknesses which have led to the expression of the worst within us, not our continued efforts to overcome and manage those weaknesses as best we can. I am different from you, and you and I are different from everyone else in this world. To coexist, we must continue to learn to better understand tolerance and respect for one another.

I'm not saying respect and tolerance are bad; what I'm saying is that not all respect and tolerance are created equal. While respect and tolerance require strength and courage in some cases, they're also a common excuse to accept what's beyond acceptable. There are two sides to the concept, and I feel the scales tip more and more in the wrong direction.

For example, we live in a time when most people put less thought and care into procreation than your average cattle breeder puts into breeding cattle, even if we have the means to be much more thorough than we are. People just don't care if their stuff is up to snuff or fits together. You might suffer from severe birth defects and you'd still be allowed to procreate. I do not presume to know where exactly to draw the line in this matter, but I know there is a line to be drawn here (like with incest, due to the high risk of crippling birth defects and insanity) - and I think it's a great example to make my point. Respect and tolerance can cause harm, like passing birth defects to your progeny.

Procreation could be elevated to an art. Standards could be improved. We could selflessly strive to breed a better next generation. However, we as a species don't. Just stick it where it belongs, and haplessly squirt life into one another. That are the values we cherish, the freedom to fuck shit up as we please - foolishly so, I believe. No matter what subject matter we'd take, I think the trends we'd find are regrettable throughout - and that's how respect and tolerance might just lead to our undoing.

#25 Posted by Jimbo (9862 posts) -

Fanboyism is overblown. Most people who argue that x is better than y do so because they believe x is better than y. Most people who bought x instead of y did so for the same reason. Most did the former because of the latter, not the other way around.

#26 Edited by Brodehouse (10066 posts) -

Yeah dude, factionalism over entertainment is completely unique and restricted to video games, it's not like anyone has ever had an argument about which rapper they like more, or what movie is better, or had long, drawn out, public arguments over which is superior; Neoclassical or Romantic. This is completely unique to video games and the internet.

Nihil sub sole novum. Nothing new under the sun.

#27 Edited by Jimbo (9862 posts) -

^ should read 'latter because of the former'. #fail

#28 Edited by mano521 (1227 posts) -

@jimbo said:

Fanboyism is overblown. Most people who argue that x is better than y do so because they believe x is better than y. Most people who bought x instead of y did so for the same reason. Most did the former because of the latter, not the other way around.

I just wish there wasnt so much of it everywhere. I dont mind an arguement, but when i hate it when the response to a well thought out post is "play ps4 then, we dont want you on xbox live faggot"

and then by the time that happens its buried by a million other comments all saying the same thing. It ruins the discourse and nobody is better for it.

Which is partially why im glad to have found this community. Most of you duders know how to talk about something without it turning into a pissing contest.

#29 Edited by TruthTellah (9294 posts) -

@seppli said:

@truthtellah said:

@seppli said:

I believe tolerance and respect will be the downfall of man, for when you start to tolerate the weak stupid twisted and wicked, or the all out evil, all hope is lost. Idealism is meant to be a source of strength. More and more, ideals have become an excuse for weakness.

Belittling people who feel strongly one way or the other isn't the answer. There is right and wrong. There are matters of fact and there is opinion. Especially when it comes to pop culture like videogames, trifling matters will be discussed and fussed over at length, and of course that's bound to be ridiculous. However, I believe that conflict is healthy, as long as it's not destructive.

It's the day we run out of trifling matters to argue about is what I fear, and maybe also long for a little. So really, you should be grateful to live in a time that's brought forth vocal gamers and the likes, for they've tapped into an endless well of trivial conflicts to be fought, and thus are hopefully harmless and docile 'til your days run out, and can expect to live it in relative peace. At least as long as nobody loses it over videogames, that is.

I think that you're mistaken, as you partition off the weak, stupid, twisted, and wicked as separate from the rest of humanity. The reality is that they are simply humanity with its assorted flaws on public display. That they are us and we are them does not mean they are not still responsible for the consequences of their weakness, stupidity, twistedness, and wickedness. As we all should be. Yet, the history of humanity has not had so much strife and suffering because of too much tolerance and respect. It has struggled due to the tribalism mentioned here and the prejudice and hatefulness that delude people into destroying one another.

As you noted, arguing is indeed good, and arguing can exist because of differing viewpoints. Differing viewpoints can exist thanks to tolerance and respect. Without those things, any disagreement is reason to be dismissed or crushed, and it is when people embrace that way of thinking that people act tyrannically. It's when people accept that believing they are right gives them justification for doing -anything- to those who do not agree. We see that in all the violence around us. When I see over a thousand innocent people gassed this week in Syria due to them supporting an opposing political side, I do not lament that some people had too much tolerance and respect. I see proud people deluding themselves into believing they can act with impunity.

Tolerance and respect are the ever-growing fruit and backbone of civilization, allowing for multiple, different people to interact with one another without things simply descending into chaos. It is our inherent weaknesses which have led to the expression of the worst within us, not our continued efforts to overcome and manage those weaknesses as best we can. I am different from you, and you and I are different from everyone else in this world. To coexist, we must continue to learn to better understand tolerance and respect for one another.

I'm not saying respect and tolerance are bad; what I'm saying is that not all respect and tolerance are created equal. While respect and tolerance require strength and courage in some cases, they're also a common excuse to accept what's beyond acceptable. There are two sides to the concept, and I feel the scales tip more and more in the wrong direction.

For example, we live in a time when most people put less thought and care into procreation than your average cattle breeder puts into breeding cattle, even if we have the means to be much more thorough than we are. People just don't care if their stuff is up to snuff or fits together. You might suffer from severe birth defects and you'd still be allowed to procreate. I do not presume to know where exactly to draw the line in this matter, but I know there is a line to be drawn here (like with incest, due to the high risk of crippling birth defects and insanity) - and I think it's a great example to make my point. Respect and tolerance can cause harm, like passing birth defects to your progeny.

Procreation could be elevated to an art. Standards could be improved. We could selflessly strive to breed a better next generation. However, we as a species don't. Just stick it where it belongs, and haplessly squirt life into one another. That are the values we cherish, the freedom to fuck shit up as we please - foolishly so, I believe. No matter what subject matter we'd take, I think the trends we'd find are regrettable throughout - and that's how respect and tolerance might just lead to our undoing.

I don't think that's respect and tolerance leading to that, as having sex as much as possible has been around in humanity since before respect and tolerance even became a part of our minds. It's modern civilization that has led to people putting more consideration into having children, and it has led to the proliferation of birth control measures. It's our primal nature that leads to thoughtless proliferation, not our civilized notions of respect and tolerance.

As far as people with birth defects, I really don't think that's a major concern anywhere in the world. Most with severe birth defects don't end up having children. Though, people with birth defects sometimes have healthy children, just as many healthy parents have children with birth defects. I think there is great value in people like that, and while I do hope we improve our treatment of birth defects, I would never hope for the day that people with birth defects are treated even more as second class human beings than they already are. Most are already aborted before they're even brought into the world; so, I can hardly imagine a situation where there were even more deterrents for them to exist at all. I'm biased, though, as one of my brothers has a severe birth defect, and in taking care of him, I've seen the value of people with disabilities. Some doctors wanted to prevent him from being born, as though that solves anything. But he has outlived any expectations and contributed a great deal to me and everyone that has known him. Lives like his are certainly worth the extra work, and these days, we need more people like him, not less.

#30 Edited by TruthTellah (9294 posts) -

@seppli said:

@truthtellah said:

@seppli said:

I believe tolerance and respect will be the downfall of man, for when you start to tolerate the weak stupid twisted and wicked, or the all out evil, all hope is lost. Idealism is meant to be a source of strength. More and more, ideals have become an excuse for weakness.

Belittling people who feel strongly one way or the other isn't the answer. There is right and wrong. There are matters of fact and there is opinion. Especially when it comes to pop culture like videogames, trifling matters will be discussed and fussed over at length, and of course that's bound to be ridiculous. However, I believe that conflict is healthy, as long as it's not destructive.

It's the day we run out of trifling matters to argue about is what I fear, and maybe also long for a little. So really, you should be grateful to live in a time that's brought forth vocal gamers and the likes, for they've tapped into an endless well of trivial conflicts to be fought, and thus are hopefully harmless and docile 'til your days run out, and can expect to live it in relative peace. At least as long as nobody loses it over videogames, that is.

I think that you're mistaken, as you partition off the weak, stupid, twisted, and wicked as separate from the rest of humanity. The reality is that they are simply humanity with its assorted flaws on public display. That they are us and we are them does not mean they are not still responsible for the consequences of their weakness, stupidity, twistedness, and wickedness. As we all should be. Yet, the history of humanity has not had so much strife and suffering because of too much tolerance and respect. It has struggled due to the tribalism mentioned here and the prejudice and hatefulness that delude people into destroying one another.

As you noted, arguing is indeed good, and arguing can exist because of differing viewpoints. Differing viewpoints can exist thanks to tolerance and respect. Without those things, any disagreement is reason to be dismissed or crushed, and it is when people embrace that way of thinking that people act tyrannically. It's when people accept that believing they are right gives them justification for doing -anything- to those who do not agree. We see that in all the violence around us. When I see over a thousand innocent people gassed this week in Syria due to them supporting an opposing political side, I do not lament that some people had too much tolerance and respect. I see proud people deluding themselves into believing they can act with impunity.

Tolerance and respect are the ever-growing fruit and backbone of civilization, allowing for multiple, different people to interact with one another without things simply descending into chaos. It is our inherent weaknesses which have led to the expression of the worst within us, not our continued efforts to overcome and manage those weaknesses as best we can. I am different from you, and you and I are different from everyone else in this world. To coexist, we must continue to learn to better understand tolerance and respect for one another.

I'm not saying respect and tolerance are bad; what I'm saying is that not all respect and tolerance are created equal. While respect and tolerance require strength and courage in some cases, they're also a common excuse to accept what's beyond acceptable. There are two sides to the concept, and I feel the scales tip more and more in the wrong direction.

For example, we live in a time when most people put less thought and care into procreation than your average cattle breeder puts into breeding cattle, even if we have the means to be much more thorough than we are. People just don't care if their stuff is up to snuff or fits together. You might suffer from severe birth defects and you'd still be allowed to procreate. I do not presume to know where exactly to draw the line in this matter, but I know there is a line to be drawn here (like with incest, due to the high risk of crippling birth defects and insanity) - and I think it's a great example to make my point. Respect and tolerance can cause harm, like passing birth defects to your progeny.

Procreation could be elevated to an art. Standards could be improved. We could selflessly strive to breed a better next generation. However, we as a species don't. Just stick it where it belongs, and haplessly squirt life into one another. That are the values we cherish, the freedom to fuck shit up as we please - foolishly so, I believe. No matter what subject matter we'd take, I think the trends we'd find are regrettable throughout - and that's how respect and tolerance might just lead to our undoing.

I don't think that's respect and tolerance leading to that, as having sex as much as possible has been around in humanity since before respect and tolerance even became a part of our minds. It's modern civilization that has led to people putting more consideration into having children, and it has led to the proliferation of birth control measures. It's our primal nature that leads to thoughtless proliferation, not our civilized notions of respect and tolerance.

As far as people with birth defects, I really don't think that's a major concern anywhere in the world. Most with severe birth defects don't end up having children. Though, people with birth defects sometimes have healthy children, just as many healthy parents have children with birth defects. I think there is great value in people like that, and while I do hope we improve our treatment of birth defects, I would never hope for the day that people with birth defects are treated even more as second class human beings than they already are. Most are already aborted before they're even brought into the world; so, I can hardly imagine a situation where there were even more deterrents for them to exist.

I'm biased, though, as one of my brothers has a severe birth defect, and in taking care of him, I've seen the great value of people with disabilities. Some doctors wanted to prevent him from being born, as though that solves anything. But he has outlived any expectations and contributed a great deal to me and everyone that has known him. Lives like his are certainly worth the extra work, and these days, we need more people like him, not less.

#31 Posted by Breadfan (6590 posts) -

Thanks, Obama.