Awful things happen when you try to express an opinion.

@WilliamRLBaker said:

@TheKing said:

@Cincaid said:

The whole "welcome to Internet"-excuse is really tiresome. Just because you can act like a total dick, doesn't mean you should act like a total dick.

I came here to post this. People need to grow the fuck up and act like civilized human beings.

humans aren't civilized and never will be.

How about pretending to to civilized, at least? People on her YouTube feed were calling her an "ovendodger" and "feminazi cunt" among other niceties. The laissez faire attitude toward this behavior is depressing.

@Ley_Lines said:

@fRAWRst said:

you guys should send me money

for research and stuff

I'd be willing to bet after the whole troll storm, her kickerstarter donations went up a ton. It gave her controversy, attention and she gets to play the victim/sympathy card. The whole project seems self-indulgent but good on her for making lemonade out of lemons.

it did, in fact, do exactly this.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/

Aren't people posting comments merely expressing their opinion?

@Animasta said:

@Ley_Lines said:

@fRAWRst said:

you guys should send me money

for research and stuff

I'd be willing to bet after the whole troll storm, her kickerstarter donations went up a ton. It gave her controversy, attention and she gets to play the victim/sympathy card. The whole project seems self-indulgent but good on her for making lemonade out of lemons.

it did, in fact, do exactly this.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/

Glad to see the trolling backfire. Way to go internet!

Wow. 

@stryker1121 said:

@WilliamRLBaker said:

@TheKing said:

@Cincaid said:

The whole "welcome to Internet"-excuse is really tiresome. Just because you can act like a total dick, doesn't mean you should act like a total dick.

I came here to post this. People need to grow the fuck up and act like civilized human beings.

humans aren't civilized and never will be.

How about pretending to to civilized, at least? People on her YouTube feed were calling her an "ovendodger" and "feminazi cunt" among other niceties. The laissez faire attitude toward this behavior is depressing.

Because no behavior is going to change the attitudes of anonymous trolls and misogynists. There's this prevailing idea like all it's going to take is for the reasonable people to be nicer (and to donate to her kickstarter) and we'll solve anonymous hate messages on the internet. That somehow the people who are already respectful of others are going to change the opinions of those who choose to be dehumanizing, and that if you don't agree you are part of the problem. That's patently ridiculous. For one, the idea that you're going to change someone's mind on the internet is beyond the pale. That has never happened ever, and never will. By saying "we just tolerate it and don't say anything" it's because the trolls and people shouting hate speech aren't listening. No amount of 'awareness raising' is going to change them. The only people listening are the people who already aware and already are good samaritans on the internet. All this sense of "either you're giving us money or you're part of the problem" is going to do is turn good guys into bad guys. It solves nothing.

You're a respectful individual, obviously. Do you actually think that anything you say is ever going to stop the people who use words like "ovendodger" and "feminazi cunt". Do you think you're ever going to be able to say or do anything that will stop them or make them change their ways? The only thing you can do is ignore them, and marginalize them. All you can do is make it so they're not part of the discussion, and make the discussion better than what they're doing.

The use of 'civilized' is actually perfect. You're never going to be able to lecture the barbarians into stopping, because they're not listening. All you're doing is lecturing the civilized people on things they already know, and then comparing them to the barbarians. That solves nothing. All you can really do is make civilization a better place to live and deprive the barbarians. Instead what we're constantly doing is letting them into the city and then witch hunting each other when they start throwing shit in the streets.

i dont see a problem. its not like you see ugly nerdy dudes running around killing dragons. its always the big buff good looking dude. so fuck it. gimme the hot chick too.

Sigh...

It's times like these that make ashamed to say that I love videogames and the culture that surrounds them.

Just... sigh...

@Animasta said:

@Ley_Lines said:

@fRAWRst said:

you guys should send me money

for research and stuff

I'd be willing to bet after the whole troll storm, her kickerstarter donations went up a ton. It gave her controversy, attention and she gets to play the victim/sympathy card. The whole project seems self-indulgent but good on her for making lemonade out of lemons.

it did, in fact, do exactly this.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/

Thanks for posting that. Seriously, that's a lot of funding, more than it needed and quite honestly probably deserves. I should reserve judgement though but I doubt a feminist's perspective on gender inequalities is going to be exactly fair and balanced.

@Brodehouse said:

My problem with Anita Sarkeesian is is that she's getting publicity and money for reading off of TVTropes Gender and Sexuality tropes. And it's entirely frustrating because it's portrayed as a) new information that none of us have thought of, b) that it's her work, c) all female tropes are negative, and d) these are only relevant to video game culture. Each of her 'episodes' on her expose might as well just be reading the page for the associated trope.

By drawing attention to youtube comments and hate-mongering trolls, it only gives them more encouragement to go bigger, and that actually works in her favor (as I'm sure she's realized). By depicting the most savage and brutal of dissent, she can create a narrative where you can either agree with her in full, or you're a misogynistic troglodyte. Your choice is between boorish chauvinism or sycophantic chivalry. Support her and give her your money, or you hate women. And that turns even those sympathetic against her, because it makes her come off as another censor here to take away the video games. Not to create better ones, but to take them away in full because some are bad (and there plenty of examples of bad characterization of women, absolutely). I hate all the people who troll and shout hate at women, but I find it incredibly agitating that I'm delivered this false dichotomy of misogyny or infantilization.

And ultimately it leads to insane overreactions and double standards like you see in the Tomb Raider game and Hitman trailer. The moment when you stop asking for something better and start demanding double standards is when I'm all the way out.

What you just said couldn't be more spot on with my sentiments. It's called freedom of artistic creation. If we demanded that every subset of a society be shown in a positive light all the time, we would end up with a single ultra politically correct movie that would repeat ad infinitum. The characters are as the creator envisioned them, and if they are shallow then his creation's quality drops. You can't force art to be as you would like it to be unless you are the creator yourself. You can only judge its overall quality.

Another thing, I don't think anybody is denying that there aren't examples of women in gaming that could be taken as "sexist", but how much of that is legitimately intentional? Did the creators of these characters put them there specifically because they just hate women? No, they did it because that's how they wanted those characters to be. Sure a lot of female characters fall into tropes and cliche's that could be taken as "sexist" from some angles, but did these creators make them like that on purpose, specifically because they feel women aren't as good as men and that they need to be marginalized in video games?

@Brodehouse said:

@stryker1121 said:

@WilliamRLBaker said:

@TheKing said:

@Cincaid said:

The whole "welcome to Internet"-excuse is really tiresome. Just because you can act like a total dick, doesn't mean you should act like a total dick.

I came here to post this. People need to grow the fuck up and act like civilized human beings.

humans aren't civilized and never will be.

How about pretending to to civilized, at least? People on her YouTube feed were calling her an "ovendodger" and "feminazi cunt" among other niceties. The laissez faire attitude toward this behavior is depressing.

Because no behavior is going to change the attitudes of anonymous trolls and misogynists. There's this prevailing idea like all it's going to take is for the reasonable people to be nicer (and to donate to her kickstarter) and we'll solve anonymous hate messages on the internet. That somehow the people who are already respectful of others are going to change the opinions of those who choose to be dehumanizing, and that if you don't agree you are part of the problem. That's patently ridiculous. For one, the idea that you're going to change someone's mind on the internet is beyond the pale. That has never happened ever, and never will. By saying "we just tolerate it and don't say anything" it's because the trolls and people shouting hate speech aren't listening. No amount of 'awareness raising' is going to change them. The only people listening are the people who already aware and already are good samaritans on the internet. All this sense of "either you're giving us money or you're part of the problem" is going to do is turn good guys into bad guys. It solves nothing.

You're a respectful individual, obviously. Do you actually think that anything you say is ever going to stop the people who use words like "ovendodger" and "feminazi cunt". Do you think you're ever going to be able to say or do anything that will stop them or make them change their ways? The only thing you can do is ignore them, and marginalize them. All you can do is make it so they're not part of the discussion, and make the discussion better than what they're doing.

The use of 'civilized' is actually perfect. You're never going to be able to lecture the barbarians into stopping, because they're not listening. All you're doing is lecturing the civilized people on things they already know, and then comparing them to the barbarians. That solves nothing. All you can really do is make civilization a better place to live and deprive the barbarians. Instead what we're constantly doing is letting them into the city and then witch hunting each other when they start throwing shit in the streets.

Well said...and yeah maybe i'm being pollyanna-ish w/ the hopes that people can change, even a bit. Ignoring the trolls probably is the best option. However, I do often wonder who these people are when I read hateful YouTube comments, or about people on 4chan/reddit/9gag ganging up to put porn on this woman's wiki page b/c they don't agree with her. Like, is there a cabal of undersocialized white guys ages 16-24 who gather w/ the specific goal of being awful to others? Who the hell are these people, and what kind of buzz do they get from their behavior?

This is the kind of thing that bugs me, and it probably shouldn't it.

@SathingtonWaltz said:

What you just said couldn't be more spot on with my sentiments. It's called freedom of artistic creation. If we demanded that every subset of a society be shown in a positive light all the time, we would end up with a single ultra politically correct movie that would repeat ad infinitum. The characters are as the creator envisioned them, and if they are shallow then his creation's quality drops. You can't force art to be as you would like it to be unless you are the creator yourself. You can only judge its overall quality.

Another thing, I don't think anybody is denying that there aren't examples of women in gaming that could be taken as "sexist", but how much of that is legitimately intentional? Did the creators of these characters put them there specifically because they just hate women? No, they did it because that's how they wanted those characters to be. Sure a lot of female characters fall into tropes and cliche's that could be taken as "sexist" from some angles, but did these creators make them like that on purpose, specifically because they feel women aren't as good as men and that they need to be marginalized in video games?

Just with regards to the section in bold (and italicized for neatness), that's kind of a problem in and of itself. Kind of a point that's made over and over again by... well anyone in the social sciences. Just popped in to say that. I myself don't exactly don't know enough about her to make a judgement on her credentials, but Extra Credits had the same discussion a long long time ago, and I know at least a dozen or so university profs who would be able to talk about the subject without needing any money (Probably because it's their job, but hush, don't spoil the point).

Also, nobody is demanding every subset of society be shown in a positive light. At all.

@Hunkulese: But they're not expressing the right opinion, opinions are only valid when a certain number of people agree with it, and if they aren't offensive to the female gender. :)

@rebgav: lol

Bad comments, cant believe how much money people have donated though.

@Brodehouse said:

My problem with Anita Sarkeesian is is that she's getting publicity and money for reading off of TVTropes Gender and Sexuality tropes. And it's entirely frustrating because it's portrayed as a) new information that none of us have thought of, b) that it's her work, c) all female tropes are negative, and d) these are only relevant to video game culture. Each of her 'episodes' on her expose might as well just be reading the page for the associated trope.

By drawing attention to youtube comments and hate-mongering trolls, it only gives them more encouragement to go bigger, and that actually works in her favor (as I'm sure she's realized). By depicting the most savage and brutal of dissent, she can create a narrative where you can either agree with her in full, or you're a misogynistic troglodyte. Your choice is between boorish chauvinism or sycophantic chivalry. Support her and give her your money, or you hate women. And that turns even those sympathetic against her, because it makes her come off as another censor here to take away the video games. Not to create better ones, but to take them away in full because some are bad (and there plenty of examples of bad characterization of women, absolutely). I hate all the people who troll and shout hate at women, but I find it incredibly agitating that I'm delivered this false dichotomy of misogyny or initialization.

And ultimately it leads to insane overreactions and double standards like you see in the Tomb Raider game and Hitman trailer. The moment when you stop asking for something better and start demanding double standards is when I'm all the way out.

Thanks for this. It's absolutely perfect.

We live in a society that, unfortunately, is reverting to tribalism at a breakneck pace. If you don't agree with everything I say, you're a horrible bigot/liberal/etc. There's no room for grey areas anymore. You can't disagree with Sarkeesian and oppose sexism. You can't oppose sexist portrayals without viewing them as endemic to the whole of the medium. Heaven forbid you try to make the case that scantily clad isn't necessarily sexist without being called "privileged." Everything has to play into this neat and tidy left-right system that society has made up, and choices no longer exist outside of the dichotomy. This is what's making people who are in the middle sour with all aspects of debate, from internet discussion to politics, and what will eventually lead to the fall of civilized society.

The Tomb Raider and Hitman "controversies" are the worst. The detractors rail against them for their portrayals of women for no other reason than their weakness and the odd groan. I can't help but wonder if it would just be safer to just exclude female characters entirely from video games, or if that would only play into the narrative that Sarkeesian wants to paint of gaming as an industry that isn't friendly to women.

She and her ilk come off exactly as censors, and that they're the face of the feminist movement is saddening.

@YukoAsho said:

@Brodehouse said:

My problem with Anita Sarkeesian is is that she's getting publicity and money for reading off of TVTropes Gender and Sexuality tropes. And it's entirely frustrating because it's portrayed as a) new information that none of us have thought of, b) that it's her work, c) all female tropes are negative, and d) these are only relevant to video game culture. Each of her 'episodes' on her expose might as well just be reading the page for the associated trope.

By drawing attention to youtube comments and hate-mongering trolls, it only gives them more encouragement to go bigger, and that actually works in her favor (as I'm sure she's realized). By depicting the most savage and brutal of dissent, she can create a narrative where you can either agree with her in full, or you're a misogynistic troglodyte. Your choice is between boorish chauvinism or sycophantic chivalry. Support her and give her your money, or you hate women. And that turns even those sympathetic against her, because it makes her come off as another censor here to take away the video games. Not to create better ones, but to take them away in full because some are bad (and there plenty of examples of bad characterization of women, absolutely). I hate all the people who troll and shout hate at women, but I find it incredibly agitating that I'm delivered this false dichotomy of misogyny or initialization.

And ultimately it leads to insane overreactions and double standards like you see in the Tomb Raider game and Hitman trailer. The moment when you stop asking for something better and start demanding double standards is when I'm all the way out.

Thanks for this. It's absolutely perfect.

We live in a society that, unfortunately, is reverting to tribalism at a breakneck pace. If you don't agree with everything I say, you're a horrible bigot/liberal/etc. There's no room for grey areas anymore. You can't disagree with Sarkeesian and oppose sexism. You can't oppose sexist portrayals without viewing them as endemic to the whole of the medium. Heaven forbid you try to make the case that scantily clad isn't necessarily sexist without being called "privileged." Everything has to play into this neat and tidy left-right system that society has made up, and choices no longer exist outside of the dichotomy. This is what's making people who are in the middle sour with all aspects of debate, from internet discussion to politics, and what will eventually lead to the fall of civilized society.

The Tomb Raider and Hitman "controversies" are the worst. The detractors rail against them for their portrayals of women for no other reason than their weakness and the odd groan. I can't help but wonder if it would just be safer to just exclude female characters entirely from video games, or if that would only play into the narrative that Sarkeesian wants to paint of gaming as an industry that isn't friendly to women.

She and her ilk come off exactly as censors, and that they're the face of the feminist movement is saddening.

Excellent points. People like us aren't debating whether sexism is good or bad (it's bad), we are debating whether or not something is actually sexist. Also, it wouldn't matter if a female was in your game or not. If there was, you're a sexist for portraying her wrong. If there isn't, you're a sexist for excluding women. The political extremes have created this awful and retarded system of never ending double standards.

If an emotionally and intellectually underdeveloped teen edited my wikipedia page like that I. WOULD. JUST. DIE.

Breaking news: feminists up in arms again about something they don't understand (again)

@JackOhara said:

Breaking news: feminists up in arms again about something they don't understand (again)

And now she's rolling in money. Seems legit

@DoctorDanger99 said:

i grow bored very quickly of people who complain about how thier religion,race,sexual oreintation or whatever. i get it. you dont get the respect you deserve. move the fuck on. dont let the fact that your gay,black or a buddist define what you are as a person.just do what everybody else does,understand the world is a fucked up and unfair place and move on.

but what do i know?im a white man. apparently my opinion doesnt matter because im white and straight.

this ^^^ times 1000 im disabled yet i dont feel the need to complain endless about how it sucks. the world is a mean place for everyone not just you.

@JasonR86 said:

Eh, I wouldn't have been interested in the series anyway. I get it, men are pigs and sex sells. Next!

Agreed

Really guys?! May of the attitudes on this thread along with the harassment trolling supports her's and others points about sexism and privilege. Her video are focused on sexism issues in games and how the female characters are treated. It's not a clear cut this is sexist or not but reasons how some things are sexist or can easily become sexist. This is not about attacking males or sexuality. Sexuality can be fine but when it is done in a way that it degrades the female character into an object then that is bad.

I have no sympathy for a woman who goes out of her way to enforce her ideologies on others and has the nerve to ask people for money so she can put up a series of youtube quality videos and claim that the entire 100K went towards those videos. She's borderline Nazi germany propaganda, next thing you know she's going to be calling for her followers to kill anyone that sees through her thin exterior. She called out 4chan basically by name, its like the goddamn candyman you don't say his name unless you're prepared to get gutted.

I would love for an accounting on every single cent from that Kickstart down to the goddam food services table bill and electricity bill. You'll never get it but its good to dream.

Guess I'll start a kickstarter "Single White Male Examines Pseudo Social Media Gurus who Milk Gulliable People out of Money" this being kickstarter i'll easily take in 200k from hipster scene and liberal brainwashed youth of america in 2 weeks.

I'm sick and tired of people with terrible hodge podge ideas and nothing to show for it being allowed on kickstarter.

I wonder if she would go on a crusade if she saw my porn collection......... probably get another hundred grand. heh.

@notlupus said:

I have no sympathy for a woman who goes out of her way to enforce her ideologies on others and has the nerve to ask people for money so she can put up a series of youtube quality videos and claim that the entire 100K went towards those videos. She's borderline Nazi germany propaganda, next thing you know she's going to be calling for her followers to kill anyone that sees through her thin exterior. She called out 4chan basically by name, its like the goddamn candyman you don't say his name unless you're prepared to get gutted.

jesus christ man it's just some videos she's not actually a nazi. Even if she did call out 4chan by name (I doubt this), it was still 4chan's fault that she got so much extra money.

@notlupus said:

I have no sympathy for a woman who goes out of her way to enforce her ideologies on others and has the nerve to ask people for money so she can put up a series of youtube quality videos and claim that the entire 100K went towards those videos. She's borderline Nazi germany propaganda, next thing you know she's going to be calling for her followers to kill anyone that sees through her thin exterior. She called out 4chan basically by name, its like the goddamn candyman you don't say his name unless you're prepared to get gutted.

I would love for an accounting on every single cent from that Kickstart down to the goddam food services table bill and electricity bill. You'll never get it but its good to dream.

Guess I'll start a kickstarter "Single White Male Examines Pseudo Social Media Gurus who Milk Gulliable People out of Money" this being kickstarter i'll easily take in 200k from hipster scene and liberal brainwashed youth of america in 2 weeks.

I'm sick and tired of people with terrible hodge podge ideas and nothing to show for it being allowed on kickstarter.

Great job on proving Godwin's Law.

Sigh, another internet incident where there are no winners, except some completely random person getting a ton of money. The power of free world-wide advertising and people thinking stuff on the internet matters just scares me sometimes.

Holy hell am I tired of people telling me I'm privileged.

Ah Nerds.  How far you have fallen 

Couldn't give less of a shit.

Do you see me running around like a conceited hipster guy because the crappy gears of wars e.g. and SEVERAL other games portray males as clichéed muscular killing machines ?

Nope.

Do you know what other youtube videos get the same type of nasty comments?

All of them.

Hmm, various posts in just this thread shows she might have a point.

Wow there are some really ignorant assholes in this thread.

Today I've learned that she is the villain because

a) She used the hate aimed at her in a constructive way to garner support from people. Clearly she should have just cowered under her blankets and hoped for this all to go away.

b) She made way more money than her kickstarter "probably deserves" and it's obvious that she must be forcing people to pay her money through manipulation and scare tactics. No doubt she'll spend all of that extra money on hookers and blow.

c) She's omniscient and forcing her opinions down all of our throats. I imagine she's taking on the supreme court with Jack Thompson as her lawyer, trying to ban video games. We're pretty much boned now and video games will never be the same.

d) She's a Nazi. Plain and simple.

*facepalms*

Edit: The sad thing is that there are people who have wrote in this thread who won't actually realize this post is sarcastic and they're nodding their heads in agreement with everything I've said.

Ah, another day on the internet!

Yes its better if we just focus on the half naked chicks in clubs... having no real opinion i'd say: As long as its okay from a public decency point of view to walk around showing over 80% of your skin, then its also fine to be okay with w/e portrayal video games have of women. The fact is women are sexualized in society, and its not video games doing, video games are just following the herd because it sells. The only women who have a right to complain to about this kind of sexualization is like muslims or the like who don't encourage this kind of thinking with their attires. Here's an interesting fact, over 80% of photos in boys AND girls magazines are of girls.

What the fuck does she need 150 grand for?

@Flacracker said:

What the fuck does she need 150 grand for?

because money

I think getting money is fair because she would need to pay rights to use certain video clips and have decent production values, pay a crew to film the videos, and stuff like that. I don't know how valid/invalid $150k is as a cost because I don't know how much these things usually cost.

I don't think that by criticizing the way certain individuals act as unfair means you hate the entire group. Some people of both genders unfairly judge the other, judge their own gender, and that doesn't mean the entirety of them are stupid, just some. And if someone's acting unfair, you have the right to voice an opinion on it. Personally, I don't mind a tiny bit of fanservice as long as it doesn't take away from the plot or make up for a shitty game. If you're going to have a female character in a sexy outfit, show a man in a sexy outfit too.

@Rappelsiini: I want to hurt you so much. : (

Dang. I feel sorry for the poor gal. I mean, I love busty gals and bikini armor in gaming (Oblivion/Skyrim , ect <3), but sheesh.

This whole story - specifically the abuse Anita received - made it to some more mainstream press over the last couple of days. I even saw a highly regarded Australian journalist tweet about it.

I've got no idea how some people here can now start knocking her because the kickstarter's funding is now trending towards $150,000 - she only asked for $6,000.

@YukoAsho said:

This is what's making people who are in the middle sour with all aspects of debate, from internet discussion to politics, and what will eventually lead to the fall of civilized society.

I always knew Kickstarter would do us in.

@JackOhara said:

Breaking news: feminists up in arms again about something they don't understand (again)

Also, there are assholes on the internet. Woman makes a crap ton of money off of the controversy. News at 11.

Edit: I'll actually attempt to add to the discussion here. I find it absolutely fascinating that people will fight tooth and nail to protect their anonymity on the internet but will then turn around and be outraged at the lack of accountability. You can't have it both ways. You either keep everything anonymous and let the asshats say whatever dumb shit they want to say or we start identifying the asshats and holding them accountable for all the dumb shit they say.

People say mean stuff on YouTube.

In other news, water is wet.

@Petiew said:

9gag

aw christ, there's a new one of those?

@Grimluck343 said:

Edit: I'll actually attempt to add to the discussion here. I find it absolutely fascinating that people will fight tooth and nail to protect their anonymity on the internet but will then turn around and be outraged at the lack of accountability. You can't have it both ways. You either keep everything anonymous and let the asshats say whatever dumb shit they want to say or we start identifying the asshats and holding them accountable for all the dumb shit they say.

If everyone's anonymous, why assume they're the same people?

(DONT BREAK AWAY)

(I'LL WASTE AWAY)

(DON'T BREAK AWAY)

http://www.indiegogo.com/misandryinvideogames?c=home

Oh my.