BioWare co-founder: JRPGs suffer from 'lack of evolution'

http://www.destructoid.com/bioware-co-founder-jrpgs-suffer-from-lack-of-...

"The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a lack of progression," Zeschuk said. "They kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it's still the same experience

Um - while I will be the first to admit that this gen's console RPGs have been terrible overall, (barring Demon's Souls, Folklore and Enchanted Arms), this seems incredibly one-sided and overly simplistic from a guy that sticks exactly the same dialogue trees and moderately different endings in every game. (See? I can generalise too! It's easy!)

In all seriousness, console RPGs this gen have been weak, but the DS RPGs have been a real hotbed of interesting, experimental games.

And, in part, there is a sense of "those slanty-eyed Japs can't do anything right - USA! USA!" in gaming this gen that really rubs me the wrong way. (Including Keiji Inafune's "Everything in Japan sucks - except for Capcom of course! LOLZ!"

Basically, this an incredibly gross oversimplification on the part of Bioware - and I think WRPGs can be accused of exactly the same faults that JRPGs have, if you're determined to find fault like he is.

Oh and is holding back content from the game and then charging ridiculous amounts for it (like Dragon Age Origins) the kind of evolution that JRPGs are lacking? Because I'll be happy if they stay stagnant if that's what he means.

I think one of the major reasons behind him saying that is because a lot of JRPGs still use turn based battles. There's nothing wrong with that, but the people saying these things think there is.

Actually, I think they're right on the money. It's no wonder why my top RPGs of all time are mostly Bioware, or at least USA (errr... North American; yes, I know Bioware hails from Canada), developed.

He's right. Even if you change around the combat, the style and structure of JRPGs have basically been the same since Final Fantasy VII. While yes, there are some exceptions (The World Ends With You, Persona 4), but CRPGs are constantly changing. Just look at the difference between Baldur's Gate and Mass Effect, and then look at the differences between Final Fantasy VII and Lost Odyssey. 

how about Demon's Souls?

The people at Bioware are entitled to their opinion, but I have to staunchly disagree with it.  Particularly since I can't say that there was anything particularly new or innovative about Dragon Age.

He speaks the truth, however wrpg games lacks good characterization and appealing character designs, rather has boring old archetypes like dungeons and dragons that doesn't appeal to everyone. That's very true of games like the witcher or dragon age orgins and oblivion which are substance over style.

i agree with you Lard, as wrpgs haven't also seen a great evolution till this point, at least since the first kotor. 
 
The Bioware games have similar stories and decisions, as there isn't really much difference, albeit some scale, between kotor and jade empire, for instance. 
 
The VATS system on Fallout 3 was a innovation but the game remembers too much of Oblivion. 
 
In the eastern rgps if there is some evolution it has been done by square enix and atlus.

" Nope, it's a pretty accurate statement. Once you've played one JRPG you've played them all, for the most part. "

" He's right. Even if you change around the combat, the style and structure of JRPGs have basically been the same since Final Fantasy VII. While yes, there are some exceptions (The World Ends With You, Persona 4), but CRPGs are constantly changing. Just look at the difference between Baldur's Gate and Mass Effect, and then look at the differences between Final Fantasy VII and Lost Odyssey.  "

" @Red said:

" He's right. Even if you change around the combat, the style and structure of JRPGs have basically been the same since Final Fantasy VII. While yes, there are some exceptions (The World Ends With You, Persona 4), but CRPGs are constantly changing. Just look at the difference between Baldur's Gate and Mass Effect, and then look at the differences between Final Fantasy VII and Lost Odyssey.  "

I had pretty much typed out this same thing, but it sounded like it was spewing out of the mouth of a complete prick. So I'm just gonna quote you here... "

I think you can apply some of these concerns with a lot of Japanese game development right now. There seems to be a pretty strong trend to stick to the holding pattern, where as most Western developers seem at the very least to be interested in combining genres and ideas in an attempt to create some new. Sometimes Japanese developers looking back into their history of design can work well, such as with Street Fighter IV or the new 8-bit Mega Man games, but it can equally become very stale. One of the reasons that Metal Gear Solid 4 made such an impression I think is because it wasn't afraid to innovate and change, despite having some pretty substantial terrain in nostalgia. Japan needs more developers like Kojima and Suda 51, who are interested in innovation and aren't afraid to take inspiration from other games to develop forward, rather than stick to the way things have always been.

He's spot on. WRPGs have passed JRPGs in almost every single aspect (barring a select few, I guess). WRPGs have figured out how to make combat fun and accessible, something JRPGs have ALWAYS struggled with. The story of WRPGs have evolved way past JRPGs. Though I'm sure some of you will say that they still enjoy the same story of spiky haired young boys fighting against an anicent reawoken evil, the majority of the world will probably disagree.

"And, in part, there is a sense of "those slanty-eyed Japs can't do anything right - USA! USA!" in gaming this gen that really rubs me the wrong way."

Bitches don't know about Valkyria Chronicles. Seriously, everyone who wants to see a turn-based tactical RPG done right needs to play this game. I know it's the exception to the rule, and a similar system was used in Sakura Wars already, but it is at least proof that Japan can create an interesting battle system.

" I don't see where blatant racism comes into play: @Lard said:

"And, in part, there is a sense of "those slanty-eyed Japs can't do anything right - USA! USA!" in gaming this gen that really rubs me the wrong way."

Aren't the two doctors Canadian and originally from Canada, with two of the three Bioware studios located in Canada? "

"They kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it's still the same experience."
 
That's a bit rich isn't it?  He should play NWN, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect and Dragon Age back to back sometime.

" He's right. Even if you change around the combat, the style and structure of JRPGs have basically been the same since Final Fantasy VII. While yes, there are some exceptions (The World Ends With You, Persona 4), but CRPGs are constantly changing. Just look at the difference between Baldur's Gate and Mass Effect, and then look at the differences between Final Fantasy VII and Lost Odyssey.  "

Hooray for culture wars! Weaboos on one side and Gaijin on the other! FIGHT TO THE DEATH!
 
Ahem. As someone who has disliked pretty much everything Square has put out for the past 10 years, I can say that I enjoy W-RPGs far more than J-RPGs with a few exceptions (those exceptions being the Persona series and SNES era Final Fantasy games). Maybe it's that KotOR was my first real game in the genre, or maybe it's because the J-RPG as a whole hasn't advanced much past say... Final Fantasy VII in terms of development mindset. 
 
In any case, I can't see this thread going anywhere but down. Bye!

" how about Demon's Souls? "

" how about Demon's Souls? "

" @s3ank1m said:

" how about Demon's Souls? "

Read the article, he excludes Demon's Souls but that's more of an action RPG, than a JRPG. Though I guess it technically is a JRPG as much as Mass Effect is considered an RPG. "

" He's spot on. WRPGs have passed JRPGs in almost every single aspect (barring a select few, I guess). WRPGs have figured out how to make combat fun and accessible, something JRPGs have ALWAYS struggled with. The story of WRPGs have evolved way past JRPGs. Though I'm sure some of you will say that they still enjoy the same story of spiky haired young boys fighting against an anicent reawoken evil, the majority of the world will probably disagree. "

• Final Fantasy IV
• Final Fantasy VI
• Final Fantasy VII (Most of the characters, including Cloud, are in their early/mid-twenties.  Suck it, stereotypers.)
• The SaGa series as a whole.
• Shin Megami Tensei:  Nocturne
• Dragon Quest IV
• Dragon Quest V
• Lost Odyssey
• Eternal Sonata
• Torneko's Mysterious Dungeon
• Sweet Home
• Shin Megami Tensei:  Strange Journey

" @Turambar: I have trouble believing you played Dragon Age if you think the choices weren't significant or meaningful. Every decision you make in Dragon Age has a huge impact on your game. One person playing the game will have this character play a huge role in the game and another player might not have met that character at all. Choices is what Dragon Age is all about. "

I think the big difference is that while western devs haven't been innovating a whole lot more lately, they have all been doing their own thing. Compare a Bioware game to a Bethesda game to the Witcher and you've got a much wider range of experiences than among the popular JRPGs.

" @Hailinel: No, no. I'll call you an idiot for saying that Final Fantasy XII is a noteworthy character-centric JRPG, and then a bigger idiot for being offended by me calling you an idiot.  "

That particular Bioware dude is being arrogant. Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, Eternal Sonata and the Last Remnant are all great and fun games and offer many different things in my opinion.

" @Milkman: I'd say combat is by taste.  I enjoyed it in both DAO and ME, but I don't really think they're better than traditional turnbased combat in my opinion.  Also, isn't "super special guy fighting ancient evil to save the world" the plot for both ME and DAO as well?  WRPGs, Bioware rpgs in particular have pretty much embraced this plot line as well.   JRPGs haven't evolved, but it has learned to perfect itself.  WRPGs is still evolving, but has yet to find the right way of doing things.  Claims of choice is all fine and good, but no Bioware game in particular has yet succeeded in making the forks in the paths meaningful or significant.  ME and DAO most certainly failed at this.  I look forward to how the certainly large choices you made at the end of ME (but ultimately weightless within the first game itself) factor into ME2.  However, we have seen how they have completely failed at that before (from KOTOR to KOTOR 2), so I'm not holding my breath.  WRPGs have great potential, but the genre is simply not there yet. "

• The nature of the protagonist (Last Best Hope)
  
• The nature of the threat (Universal Destruction)
• Everything about the companion interaction. 
• What you need to do to counter that threat (collect the 4x:  plague cure ingredients (NWN) / words of power (NWN) / star maps (KOTOR) / pieces of spirit amulet (Jade Empire) / investigation (Mass Effect) / armies (Dragon Age)
• TWIST! (Your mentor turns baddie (NWN), you were the baddie (KOTOR), your mentor is the baddie (Jade Empire), baddie not really the main baddie (Mass Effect)

" I think the big difference is that while western devs haven't been innovating a whole lot more lately, they have all been doing their own thing. Compare a Bioware game to a Bethesda game to the Witcher and you've got a much wider range of experiences than among the popular JRPGs. "

I really agree. Jrpgs seem to really stick to the same format. Hard.

JRPG = RPG from Japan. 

 @Lard:
Seriously man. Learn how to use the quote option. It's not that hard at all, look I'll teach you.  
 

1. You write down the quote you want to pot on your post.
2. You Highlight it, and the quote option will pop up on your text menu right next to the spoiler option. (it's the text bubble symbol in case you can't figure it out)
3. While you text is highlighted press that quote option and the highlighted text will be quoted, like so:

" @Turambar said:

" @Milkman: I'd say combat is by taste.  I enjoyed it in both DAO and ME, but I don't really think they're better than traditional turnbased combat in my opinion.  Also, isn't "super special guy fighting ancient evil to save the world" the plot for both ME and DAO as well?  WRPGs, Bioware rpgs in particular have pretty much embraced this plot line as well.   JRPGs haven't evolved, but it has learned to perfect itself.  WRPGs is still evolving, but has yet to find the right way of doing things.  Claims of choice is all fine and good, but no Bioware game in particular has yet succeeded in making the forks in the paths meaningful or significant.  ME and DAO most certainly failed at this.  I look forward to how the certainly large choices you made at the end of ME (but ultimately weightless within the first game itself) factor into ME2.  However, we have seen how they have completely failed at that before (from KOTOR to KOTOR 2), so I'm not holding my breath.  WRPGs have great potential, but the genre is simply not there yet. "

Bioware didn't make KOTOR 2, so I don't think you can blame them for that.  Everything we've seen so far suggests you're right about ME though, they've taken the sequel as far away from the first game as possible so they don't really need to worry about all those 'important' decisions you make, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.
 
Bioware games are definitely made to the same template nowadays though - the combat itself changes, everything else around it pretty much remains the same:  
 

• The nature of the protagonist (Last Best Hope)
  
• The nature of the threat (Universal Destruction)
• Everything about the companion interaction. 
• What you need to do to counter that threat (collect the 4x:  plague cure ingredients (NWN) / words of power (NWN) / star maps (KOTOR) / pieces of spirit amulet (Jade Empire) / investigation (Mass Effect) / armies (Dragon Age)
• TWIST! (Your mentor turns baddie (NWN), you were the baddie (KOTOR), your mentor is the baddie (Jade Empire), baddie not really the main baddie (Mass Effect)

"

That's JUST Bioware though. They're only one of many Western RPG developers and most other developers do significantly different things. Put Dragon Age up against Fallout 3 up against The Witcher and you've got three RADICALLY different games in terms of theme, plot and even impact of choices on the world.

Also, both in and out of context, you WERE the baddie (KOTOR) was amazing for a twist.

" "They kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it's still the same experience."  That's a bit rich isn't it?  He should play NWN, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect and Dragon Age back to back sometime. "

I agree with him whole-heartedly.  There is no reason for me to pay $60 for a JRPG that plays decidedly worse than, or exactly the same as, a game that was released 15 years ago.  There are a few exceptions, sure, but most JRPGs feel and look the same.  
 
And to the dudes saying there is nothing "new or innovative about Dragon Age", that was the point of Dragon Age.  It's meant to be an old-school WRPG.  A tribute, if you will.
 
And to the other dude saying that WRPGs "lack appealing character design", I hope you were joking.  I find nothing appealing about androgynous 12 year olds running about.

" @Jimbo said:

" "They kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it's still the same experience."  That's a bit rich isn't it?  He should play NWN, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect and Dragon Age back to back sometime. "

Yeah, the WRPG experience is different, but it's not like every WRPG is some totally original experience.  There's the Bioware style, the Oblivion style, the Diablo style, and the Final Fantasy style.   So yeah, you could argue that WRPGs have three times the variety of JRPGs, but KOTOR, Mass Effect and Dragon Age are more similar as Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy XII.  "

" I agree with him whole-heartedly.  There is no reason for me to pay $60 for a JRPG that plays decidedly worse than, or exactly the same as, a game that was released 15 years ago.  There are a few exceptions, sure, but most JRPGs feel and look the same.    And to the dudes saying there is nothing "new or innovative about Dragon Age", that was the point of Dragon Age.  It's meant to be an old-school WRPG.  A tribute, if you will.  And to the other dude saying that WRPGs "lack appealing character design", I hope you were joking.  I find nothing appealing about androgynous 12 year olds running about. "