BioWare co-founder: JRPGs suffer from 'lack of evolution'

Something that a lot of people seem to miss is that when a "JRPG" breaks from the mold, it is no longer a "JRPG". It becomes a "tactical RPG" or a "strategy rpg" or a "dating-sim RPG" or whatever other ridiculous sub-genre they think of next.
 
Disgaea, Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Battle, Fire Emblem. All games that broke the "mold" of Japanese RPGs but are now placed into their own sub-genre of "tactical RPG".
 
Odin Sphere "isn't an RPG, it's an action adventure game with RPG trappings." Uhh what? It's got levels, it's got combat, it's got items, it's got treasure chests. What the hell is it missing exactly?
 
"It's missing all those other things that make it a JRPG".... Okay, so a game has to be pidgeon-holed to be classified as a JRPG? What a ridiculous joke of an argument.

It sounds horribly arrogant for someone from Bioware to say.  If it was Bethesda I'd feel differently about it, but Bioware is so damned overrated IMO.  Most of the game mechanics are the same time and time again, but unlike JRPGs they also typically have mediocre presentation.
 
There are a lot of cookie cutter JRPGs, but there are a lot of cookie cutter WRPGs for that matter, and Bioware is an offender.

I don't think he's being arrogant at all. He and the rest of BioWare are responsible for the finest RPG of the previous generation (KOTOR), and the finest RPG of this current generation (Mass Effect). That's not just me saying they're good either, it's backed up by the critical and commercial reception.

"  

Um - while I will be the first to admit that this gen's console RPGs have been terrible overall, (barring Demon's Souls, Folklore and Enchanted Arms)"

" I don't think he's being arrogant at all. He and the rest of BioWare are responsible for the finest RPG of the previous generation (KOTOR), and the finest RPG of this current generation (Mass Effect). That's not just me saying they're good either, it's backed up by the critical and commercial reception. "

" @Red said:

" He's right. Even if you change around the combat, the style and structure of JRPGs have basically been the same since Final Fantasy VII. While yes, there are some exceptions (The World Ends With You, Persona 4), but CRPGs are constantly changing. Just look at the difference between Baldur's Gate and Mass Effect, and then look at the differences between Final Fantasy VII and Lost Odyssey.  "

I wouldn't even consider Baldur's Gate and Mass Effect the same type of RPG. You'd be better off saying "Look at the difference between Baldur's Gate and Mass Effect, and then look at the difference between Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy Tactics... oh wait... huge differences, my bad." "

• Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter
• Tales of Vesperia
• Infinite Undiscovery
• Baten Kaitos Origins
• Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles

I don't have a DS so I have no comment on Sonic Chronicles. But uh, from the RPGs I have played, they're tops.

the finest RPG of this current generation (Mass Effect). That's not just me saying they're good either, it's backed up by the critical and commercial reception.

The only real annoyance I have with JRPGs is how they cut to a battle, have the characters do their happy dance and show battle statistics, and then cut back to the game world, with a irritating load, sometimes disguised, during the transitions.

" I don't have a DS so I have no comment on Sonic Chronicles. But uh, from the RPGs I have played, they're tops. "

" @Delta_Ass said:

the finest RPG of this current generation (Mass Effect). That's not just me saying they're good either, it's backed up by the critical and commercial reception.

Actually that would be either Oblivion or Fallout 3, backed up by the critical and commercial reception.  In my eyes Mass Effect was overrated at that, but it's not a horrible game either.
 
Too much ignorant generalization and stupidity about this discussion anyways.
 
If people can't see that both JRPGs and WRPGs have had innovation and quality, yet there are very poor examples of both in both JRPGs and WRPGs, then they are ignorant or simply prejudiced fools. "

" I don't think he's being arrogant at all. He and the rest of BioWare are responsible for the finest RPG of the previous generation (KOTOR), and the finest RPG of this current generation (Mass Effect). That's not just me saying they're good either, it's backed up by the critical and commercial reception. "

" @Delta_Ass said:

" I don't think he's being arrogant at all. He and the rest of BioWare are responsible for the finest RPG of the previous generation (KOTOR), and the finest RPG of this current generation (Mass Effect). That's not just me saying they're good either, it's backed up by the critical and commercial reception. "

And apart from the combat mechanic they chose to use (neither of which could really be called innovative in their own right), those games are virtually identical. "

" @Delta_Ass said:

" I don't think he's being arrogant at all. He and the rest of BioWare are responsible for the finest RPG of the previous generation (KOTOR), and the finest RPG of this current generation (Mass Effect). That's not just me saying they're good either, it's backed up by the critical and commercial reception. "

And apart from the combat mechanic they chose to use (neither of which could really be called innovative in their own right), those games are virtually identical. "

I just clicked on the OP link (I make it a habit not to give Destructoid my hits), and was relived to see the author of the comments was willing / wise enough to point out exceptions :
 

"Zeschuk admits that there are definitely exceptions coming from the East (Demon's Souls is currently one of his favorite games)"

" @Zenaxzd:  
@Symphony:  Baldur's Gate was BioWare's blockbuster CRPG of the 90s, and Mass Effect was BioWare's blockbuster RPG of the 00s. Over time, Western RPGs have become less complicated and more cinematic. Square, especially, is the leading JRPG developer, and hasn't changed much of their material since Final Fantasy VII. While, yes, tactical JRPGs are different, they too haven't changed much.  There are exceptions to the rule (Valkyria Chronicles, TWEWY,) but most JRPGs are just treading old water. "

Demon's Souls is a roguelike, what does that have to do with JRPGs?

Demon's Souls is a roguelike, what does that have to do with JRPGs?

This sounds like more of your DLC bashing, which I can only assume is your only reason for making this topic, so let me just refer to that.
 
Dragon Age Origins was originally going to be released early this year, but it was heavily delayed.  By that point, most of the game designers had already moved on to work on extra content that would be released once the game was already out, the game delays made it so this content was released alongside the actual game.  Therefore they decided to give some of the content to us for free.  Besides the actual pay for content being somewhat underwhelming, I can see no way that you could complain about this.
 
The developers were working on new content after the game was finished.  If you worked overtime at your job, wouldn't you expect to be paid for it?  Perhaps that's a bad analogy, but I'm really trying to make you understand how the process of DLC works.  It's not as black and white as you seem to think.  Besides, look at how many of these Japanese RPG's have handled DLC if you want examples of how it shouldn't be done.  Costume packs, unlock keys..  DLC packs to unlock content already in the game..  I find it very ironic you try and bash Bioware for being racist (who are Canadian, for your information) when your own views seem to be very prejudiced and misguided.  (calling Enchanted Arms a good game alone discredits your whole opinion)
 
As for the matter of JRPG's not evolving..  I'd agree, 100%.  I'm not going to say WRPG's are perfect, but look back at games like Neverwinter Nights and Baldurs Gate, compared to Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Oblivion, etc.  While some may argue the classics are still better, there's a distinct growth, evolution of features, etc.  Where as JRPG's have remained almost unchanged since the original Dragon Quest - aside from the technical abilities and I'd say that's exactly why games like Lost Odyssey (this being about the only good JRPG to come out this generation), Star Ocean and the more recent Tales games have performed so badly, despite being solid enough games that would have sold like hot cakes in the past.
 
Final Fantasy XII and XIII are two of the very few JRPG's that have attempted to evolve.. and even then, only by emulating WRPG's. 

I have a question. It may be due to my ignorance on the myriad of RPGs that come from the East, but why is it that most RPGs from there have a setting that gives a feel of Medieval Europe?
That is to say why is it always knights, broadswords, and sorcery.  Why are there so few RPGs that take place in the Eastern setting that come from Japan or something? I know that there are always the few "fighters", monks, and ninja, but not many RPGs from Japan take this (from what I've seen anyway).
I mean Bioware did Jade Empire, but I would have actually liked to play a standard Japanese RPG, that used similar traditional mechanics (except for random battles) that had a setting in Feudal (probably using the term incorrectly) Asia. Give me an interesting Tradition Eastern setting, with an excellent story, non-mopey characters, and I'd be interested.

" @ryanwho said:

Demon's Souls is a roguelike, what does that have to do with JRPGs?

Are you serious?  Also, I noticed you said Korean roguelike before you edited.  The Korean part made me think you weren't serious, but editing it out makes me think you are. "

" @Zenaxzd: As far as mainstream blockbuster JRPGs go, there's Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. Even then, tactical JRPGs haven't changed much over the years either. Even though Disgaea may be an awesome game, it didn't change the genre. "

No I am. This is like calling a shooter a CRPG, its flatout inaccurate.

I have a question. It may be due to my ignorance on the myriad of RPGs that come from the East, but why is it that most RPGs from there have a setting that gives a feel of Medieval Europe?

The only people defending JRPG's in this thread mainly consists of all the wanna be japanese who spend the majority of their time posting on relevant forums waiting for the next iteration of a declining genre to release.

He's right and its true. JRPGs lack innovation and have for quite some time. In my mind, RPGs are supposed to be about immersion and nothing ruins that more than seeing the same, tired old game mechanic from a game that came out 10 years ago. At least Mass Effect, Fallout 3, and Borderlands have raised the bar quite a bit. Can't wait to see more cooperative RPGs out there!

" @Red: Very true but that wont change the fact that JRPG's probably wont change for another decade considering how thick skulled the genre's followers are which gives them enough reason to do the same song and dance. FFXIII will probably be an outsanding dissapointment based on the fact that its predecesor was one of the worst installments for the franchise. The only people defending JRPG's in this thread mainly consists of all the wanna be japanese who spend the majority of their time posting on relevant forums waiting for the next iteration of a declining genre to release. "

" @Jimbo said:

" @Delta_Ass said:

" I don't think he's being arrogant at all. He and the rest of BioWare are responsible for the finest RPG of the previous generation (KOTOR), and the finest RPG of this current generation (Mass Effect). That's not just me saying they're good either, it's backed up by the critical and commercial reception. "

And apart from the combat mechanic they chose to use (neither of which could really be called innovative in their own right), those games are virtually identical. "

Generalization flying around left and right *sigh*.  They are not anywhere near identical games. "

" @Jimbo said:

" @Delta_Ass said:

" I don't think he's being arrogant at all. He and the rest of BioWare are responsible for the finest RPG of the previous generation (KOTOR), and the finest RPG of this current generation (Mass Effect). That's not just me saying they're good either, it's backed up by the critical and commercial reception. "

And apart from the combat mechanic they chose to use (neither of which could really be called innovative in their own right), those games are virtually identical. "

So apart from the massive differences, these two games are the same?  Great analysis. "

Bioware is Canadian (Go Canada). That is all. 
 
PS I think he's right. I believe JRPGs are falling behind WRPGs.

I hate evolution and love old game mechanics!

" @ryanwho said:

No I am. This is like calling a shooter a CRPG, its flatout inaccurate.

I'll say you're flat out ignorant of the subject of discussion and leave it at that.  You even thought it was a Korean game.  It's definitely not a Rogue-like in any case - unless that's just your name for challenging RPGs... "

I characterize it as any game with a sort of permanent death. You can go ahead and lop it in the same category with turn based party based games, because they makes so much more sense.

Outsanding retort, friend.

The good doctor's statements are absolutely correct. Sure there is an exception every once in a while, but JRPGs haven't gone anywhere in a LONG time.
 
It's not some USA USA chant in the least. That's quite an extreme way to interpret that. Almost trollish.

" The good doctor's statements are absolutely correct. Sure there is an exception every once in a while, but JRPGs haven't gone anywhere in a LONG time.  It's not some USA USA chant in the least. That's quite an extremist way to interpret that. This all comes down to your distaste for DLC. "

" @Delta_Ass said:

" I don't think he's being arrogant at all. He and the rest of BioWare are responsible for the finest RPG of the previous generation (KOTOR), and the finest RPG of this current generation (Mass Effect). That's not just me saying they're good either, it's backed up by the critical and commercial reception. "

And apart from the combat mechanic they chose to use (neither of which could really be called innovative in their own right), those games are virtually identical. "

" @MrKlorox said:

" The good doctor's statements are absolutely correct. Sure there is an exception every once in a while, but JRPGs haven't gone anywhere in a LONG time.  It's not some USA USA chant in the least. That's quite an extremist way to interpret that. This all comes down to your distaste for DLC. "

Exactly, see my previous post for details.
But just to reiterate, Bioware aren't even an American developer.
But furthermore, let's take some quotes from Xbox.com's Tales of Vesperia page. 

"Battle Support Item pack - 200 points
 Items that can support you in battle. You'll never regret taking these to a battle. (Magic Lens, Life Bottle, Cure Bottle, Syrup Bottle, Nectar Bottle, Limit Bottle) x 10 (All-Divide, Hourglass) x 3 *Can also be obtained in the game."
 
 "Customise Pack: Repede - 200 points
Costume changing attachments for Repede. (Attachment: Pork Chop, Overdrive Warrior, Overdrive Princess, Overdrive Kid, Overdrive Researcher, Overdrive Old Man, Overdrive Lady, Doggy Jerky) *Can also be obtained in the game."  And this goes on for four frikken pages.  All of it content already in the game, consumable items that must be bought with real money, some of it costumes that were already on the disc but locked off.  How can you possibly complain about Biowares additonal content, which even if it were already in the game, at least adds something worthwhile? "

JRPGs aren't evolving and WRPGs are de-evolving, partly thanks to Bioware. Yep, the RPG genre is in a pretty shitty place.

" The people at Bioware are entitled to their opinion, but I have to staunchly disagree with it.  Particularly since I can't say that there was anything particularly new or innovative about Dragon Age. "

" JRPGs aren't evolving and WRPGs are de-evolving, partly thanks to Bioware. Yep, the RPG genre is in a pretty shitty place. "

" @Milkman said:

" He's spot on. WRPGs have passed JRPGs in almost every single aspect (barring a select few, I guess). WRPGs have figured out how to make combat fun and accessible, something JRPGs have ALWAYS struggled with. The story of WRPGs have evolved way past JRPGs. Though I'm sure some of you will say that they still enjoy the same story of spiky haired young boys fighting against an anicent reawoken evil, the majority of the world will probably disagree. "

Bullshit.  This is bullshit to the nth degree.
 
Combat is not "more accessible" in WRPGs.  For me, playing Dragon Age on anything but the lowest difficulty becomes a clusterfuck because I am terrible at real-time strategy.  Sure, I can pause the game and switch tactics that way, but that just leads me back down the path of the original Icewind Dale, and issues I had with ID's design left me unable/unwilling to finish the game.  The combat is just loaded with complications of a different sort.
 
And while I ultimately enjoyed Dragon Age, I hated Oblivion.  The skill-based leveling system was a pain to use.  The way enemy power scaling worked not only invalidated leveling, but also made the game more ludicrous over time.  Fallout 3 lacked a lot of Oblivion's worst offenses despite being ridiculed as Oblivion with guns, but at the same time it had its own problems.  The moral choices and morality are stark black and white, and very few choices made in the game have the same level of impact as the nuke in Megaton.  The idea of choice presented in the game doesn't feel natural.  It's stringent and artificial.
 
And I really wish I didn't feel it necessary to do this, but there are a number of JRPGs that don't fall into the "Teens save the world from an ancient evil" category.  (And this is by no means a complete list.  Just games I'm familiar with that I can think of off the top of my head.)
 

• Final Fantasy IV
• Final Fantasy VI
• Final Fantasy VII (Most of the characters, including Cloud, are in their early/mid-twenties.  Suck it, stereotypers.)
• The SaGa series as a whole.
• Shin Megami Tensei:  Nocturne
• Dragon Quest IV
• Dragon Quest V
• Lost Odyssey
• Eternal Sonata
• Torneko's Mysterious Dungeon
• Sweet Home
• Shin Megami Tensei:  Strange Journey

"

" Anyways, I agree WRPGs have evolved while JRPGS haven't.  "