Can a strong twist make up for a weak story or gameplay?

Having recently read the twist in Inversion

(that the lead characters family have been dead all along, and that the invaders aren't just traditional alien marauders)

I've started wondering if that makes up for the games all around blandness and if the hours spent going through it are validated by that final gut punch. Are there other games that have done something similar that caused you to rethink your opinion, and if so do you think it ultimately makes up for it?

I'm struggling to think of an example of this from a game.

I know in other media, I can appreciate a twist but it doesn't make me say like a movie if the rest of the story was bad. I'll think it was clever on its own but it isn't enough to me.

I often find the opposite to be true, that I like a game's story in spite of a twist that was cliche or that I saw coming a mile away. Spec Ops was like that for me big time.

I think Spec Ops The Line was a perfect example of this. It took a game that was pretty much the most drab, mediocre game in existence and made it something really cool.

If the plot twist is done right, and the story actually makes sense and just isn't some crazy incoherent mess, than a twist can make all the difference in the world.

A gopd twist in a bad story is possible but a bad story doesn't stop being bad because it has a good twist. See: Black Ops 1.

@Stonyman65 said:

I think Spec Ops The Line was a perfect example of this. It took a game that was pretty much the most drab, mediocre game in existence and made it something really cool.

If the plot twist is done right, and the story actually makes sense and just isn't some crazy incoherent mess, than a twist can make all the difference in the world.

Funny we came to the opposite conclusion. I thought the twist at the end of Spec Ops was dumb and obvious and didn't really make sense but everything leading up was great.

@believer258 said:

A gopd twist in a bad story is possible but a bad story doesn't stop being bad because it has a good twist. See: Black Ops 1.

Also thought this was a dumb ass twist. But yeah you're right, even if you didn't the story sucked so who cares.

@Wampa1: Does a nice maraschino cherry make up for crappy whiskey or too much bitters in a Manhattan? Not for me. Games are like a good drink or meal; quality ingredients compliment each other, and while you can try to mask when something isn't up to par, you can only do so much.

Honestly, I think a strong twist will actually make me feel worse if the game has a weak story or poor gameplay; it just serves to exemplify what could have been.

It can make the difference between a good game and a great game (KOTOR, The Witcher). Not sure any twist could be good enough to turn a bad game into a good one.

I don't know if a plot twist can make up for a good story but it can definitely propel a good story into greatness.

@Jimbo said:

It can make the difference between a good game and a great game (KOTOR, The Witcher). Not sure any twist could be good enough to turn a bad game into a good one.

KOTOR is a good one. Though IMO it turned great into "Classic"... but splitting hairs I suppose.

Jade Empire also had an amazing twist I thought but it was otherwise good as well.

I've never encountered a game that was awfully designed but redeemed by a great story.

The opposite, however, has been true more times than I can count. I don't mind getting into a simple story or premise if it plays really strong.

I guess the short answer to the original question is no, a twist never makes bad gameplay tolerable.

Dragon's Dogma's twist ending saved that game for me. Up until that point it was incredibly middling, with a lot of rough spots pulling down what could have been a decent action-RPG. The ending then lead to me feeling genuinely happy with the overall result of the game, even if the middle was still a tiresome drag.

Nier's story is kind of bland for the majority of the game, and the gameplay is simple. You can play through the game a second time where you see what really went on and what you were doing throughout the game. Probably one of the best examples since it is utterly crazy.

For a games story, I feel it need to improve from the outset, allowing the player to be invested early. A twist often implies the developers had a great idea halfway through developing their core idea, and then deciding to throw in a new direction for the main story halfway, and or later in the story of the game. If the game's story is bad and unappealing from the beginning, then there is little chance that the late game twist of its core narrative could salvage an already bad story into a positive experience.

@Stonyman65:

I agree to your Spec Op's example as being the closest representation for a mid-game narrative twist that saves a bland, generic story from being anymore bland, and generic.

A twist is not necessary a positive thing. A twist for the sake of a twist is just lazy, bad story-writing.

@ArtisanBreads said:

@Stonyman65 said:

I think Spec Ops The Line was a perfect example of this. It took a game that was pretty much the most drab, mediocre game in existence and made it something really cool.

If the plot twist is done right, and the story actually makes sense and just isn't some crazy incoherent mess, than a twist can make all the difference in the world.

Funny we came to the opposite conclusion. I thought the twist at the end of Spec Ops was dumb and obvious and didn't really make sense but everything leading up was great.

I didn't see that twist coming at all.

Maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention at the time. That was a real "holy shit" moment when you figure it out.

I'm going to say yes, but only when all the right stars align.

I mean, it's a math problem. The bad story and the bad gameplay subtract a certain amount. Does the twist carry a high enough value to bring the equation to a positive number?

Depending on how much BAD GAME I have to slog through, no twist will ever make up the difference!!

@Stonyman65 said:

@ArtisanBreads said:

@Stonyman65 said:

I think Spec Ops The Line was a perfect example of this. It took a game that was pretty much the most drab, mediocre game in existence and made it something really cool.

If the plot twist is done right, and the story actually makes sense and just isn't some crazy incoherent mess, than a twist can make all the difference in the world.

Funny we came to the opposite conclusion. I thought the twist at the end of Spec Ops was dumb and obvious and didn't really make sense but everything leading up was great.

I didn't see that twist coming at all.

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

where he died in the helicopter crash and everything else from that point on wasn't real.

Maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention at the time. That was a real "holy shit" moment when you figure it out.

Oh, well I think we are talking different things here.

No..it can help like it did in the case of Dragon Age 2..but ultimately it only helps a little

@Mirado said:

Does a nice maraschino cherry make up for crappy whiskey or too much bitters in a Manhattan? Not for me. Games are like a good drink or meal; quality ingredients compliment each other, and while you can try to mask when something isn't up to par, you can only do so much.

You know what we need? More cocktail metaphors. Well done, sir!

I don't really think so, because most of the time they feel completely unearned. It's just the story writer flipping things on its head to shock people into thinking the story was better than it actually was. Even if the twist is done well, it still feels like a cheap trick about 95% of the time, at least for me. Very rarely have I been truly surprised (and enjoyed it) by a twist; I don't think once has it been from a video game.

@Yummylee: That was the one I was trying to remember. I had actually fairly enjoyed the gameplay, but it's story was incredibly dull and confusing up until that point.

@believer258 said:

A gopd twist in a bad story is possible but a bad story doesn't stop being bad because it has a good twist. See: Black Ops 1.

What was the twist in that game? I can't even remember if I got around to finishing that game, and even so it's been a while.

@MordeaniisChaos said:

@believer258 said:

A gopd twist in a bad story is possible but a bad story doesn't stop being bad because it has a good twist. See: Black Ops 1.

What was the twist in that game? I can't even remember if I got around to finishing that game, and even so it's been a while.

Aren't you the fella that told me that Black Ops 2 actually turns out to be pretty good?

Anyway, the twist in that story is that Alex Mason was brainwashed and Reznov died at the end of the Vorkuta mission. Reznov implanted the numbers into Mason's head so he would remember them, and the numbers lead him to the bad guy's ship.

Maybe. If there was a nonsensical story but at some point there was a big twist that made it all fit together. Or a generally middling story with one awesome twist like what patrick says about Dragons Dogma.

When I think of plot twists in games I think of Bioshock, then I think "Hold up, that game already had an awesome story and gameplay".

So no practical examples, so here is my theorycrafting:

A twist is a plot device. It is used to enhance or develop a story, correct? So, if the story is shit to begin with, I highly doubt that a twist would make it much less shit. As for gameplay, I don't see it holding much value. Once again, mainly a plot device.

That being said, In The Walking Dead Season 2:

There were like 4 episodes of nothing happening that were pretty terrible to watch and then the plot twist at the end of it all made up for it. So in that specific situation where the story begins to get lame but then suddenly all the lame-ness comes together, that's kind of awesome.

@believer258: I am yes.

I remember that now, you've jogged my memory. That was a pretty good twist, but that story was hardly bad. It wasn't brilliant or anything, but it was interesting enough for what it was. I would say that that twist did what a good twist really should do, it enhanced the rest of the story and it made you think back to how things happened before the twist.

So in a way, I suppose a good twist can save a story so long as it isn't total shit. If it really reaches back and isn't just interesting or exciting but elaborately orchestrated.

@Winternet said:

A twist is not necessary a positive thing. A twist for the sake of a twist is just lazy, bad story-writing.

This. The twist needs to be earned and should be able to be hinted at when you pick up the subtle hints sprinkled throughout the narrative when you go through the story again.

Nah, that twist in Assassin's Creed 3 was great- but holy shit that game is boring.

No, if the rest of the story is crap and all of the sudden an otherwise good twist comes up, I probably just hate it and respond with "what the fuck. this is stupid".

If a twist comes out of nowhere it feels cheap. But if you can see it from a mile away but your character doesn't it will become extremly annoying. I don't think it can make up for a weak story or gameplay. If the story is weak, why should I care about a twist? And if the gameplay is weak, why should I care about the game in general?

I actually think that the Assassin's Creed 2 twist was pretty good. There was always a sense of "something" bigger happening in AC1 (with the hidden video and stuff) so I didn't feel that it came out of nowhere. The AC3 twist on the other hand (the ending twist, not the beginning twist) was pretty bad and uninteresting.

I think Breakdown for the XBOX is a good example. A little clunky gameplay-wise, and slightly scant in some story areas, but it has a great twist that left a lasting impression, and made the end of the game a blast, even when it involved some backtracking. I don't think a twist can save a game, but I certainly think it'll help leave an impression once it's done, instead of making you instantly forget it.

A strong twist can definitely help a game that has average gameplay.

Just like a strong art style can carry a game.

Or strong gameplay can make me forgive a shitty narrative.

Basically, just plug in some asset of a game that can be really strong in comparison to mediocrity and it can make a game 'better than the sum of its parts'--that, to me, is what a lot of games that may get a 6 or 7/3 star review is.

But, that all said, a strong twist can never save a shit story. Ever. It's still a shit story. As @Mirado said, if there's a twist in a game with a shit story it can often just make me think of what could have been. And that's kinda inexcusable to me, especially if it's compiled on top of other average/shitty aspects of a game.

Twists, to me, if they don't service a story, and are just there to be shocking, suck. They just become anecdotal, something to talk about for a second and move on. Best example that comes to my mind is Patrick talking about Dragon's Dogma. The end just coming out of nowhere? Yes, insane, but it's just anecdotal. I still don't care. Luckily, from what I've heard, the gameplay is pretty rad.

If a twist can flip a story on its head, or it's set up amazingly-well, like, say OldBoy, or Sixth Sense (god damn I hate M. Night Shamalyngnyngyn)? Awesome. Otherwise, eh.

It really changes from game to game (and that feeling isn't exclusive to games, really), and my investment in them/patience for them. Sometimes I'll slog through something if I really, really, really get invested in the characters, or story, or even the art style or soundtrack--Walking Dead season 2 is a perfect example from a different medium. Or I'll skip the shit cutscenes because the gameplay is rad. Sometimes I just don't have the fucking patience, and I'll just read a Wiki or watch videos or something.

@Stonyman65 said:

I think Spec Ops The Line was a perfect example of this. It took a game that was pretty much the most drab, mediocre game in existence and made it something really cool.

If the plot twist is done right, and the story actually makes sense and just isn't some crazy incoherent mess, than a twist can make all the difference in the world.

I disagree with this.

The plot twist in Spec Ops The Line is just as drab and mediocre as the rest of the game. It is literally one of the oldest and most well worn storytelling cliche's of all time.

In discussing it with my brother, I literally set up the game and then said there was a plot twist, in quotation marks, and he immediately guessed the rest of the games plot to the note.

To me personally, I don't feel like plot twists can save a poor game largely due to the nature of plot twists. Character betrayals and whatnot have been going on in gaming as long as there has been gaming. The broad, grand, plot twists that people typically mean when they mention plot twists like "THE KILLER IS YOU!!!!" feel like a betrayal of the nature of videogames. Developers frequently need to take control away from the player for no other reason than to set up the twist they have coming, and that's manipulative and disingenuous.

What I would love to see is games create mechanics in which broad plot twits are possible without the games "writer" ever doing a thing.

@JazGalaxy said:

@Stonyman65 said:

I think Spec Ops The Line was a perfect example of this. It took a game that was pretty much the most drab, mediocre game in existence and made it something really cool.

If the plot twist is done right, and the story actually makes sense and just isn't some crazy incoherent mess, than a twist can make all the difference in the world.

I disagree with this.

The plot twist in Spec Ops The Line is just as drab and mediocre as the rest of the game. It is literally one of the oldest and most well worn storytelling cliche's of all time.

In discussing it with my brother, I literally set up the game and then said there was a plot twist, in quotation marks, and he immediately guessed the rest of the games plot to the note.

To me personally, I don't feel like plot twists can save a poor game largely due to the nature of plot twists. Character betrayals and whatnot have been going on in gaming as long as there has been gaming. The broad, grand, plot twists that people typically mean when they mention plot twists like "THE KILLER IS YOU!!!!" feel like a betrayal of the nature of videogames. Developers frequently need to take control away from the player for no other reason than to set up the twist they have coming, and that's manipulative and disingenuous.

What I would love to see is games create mechanics in which broad plot twits are possible without the games "writer" ever doing a thing.

Please, yes.

@ArtisanBreads said:

@Stonyman65 said:

@ArtisanBreads said:

@Stonyman65 said:

I think Spec Ops The Line was a perfect example of this. It took a game that was pretty much the most drab, mediocre game in existence and made it something really cool.

If the plot twist is done right, and the story actually makes sense and just isn't some crazy incoherent mess, than a twist can make all the difference in the world.

Funny we came to the opposite conclusion. I thought the twist at the end of Spec Ops was dumb and obvious and didn't really make sense but everything leading up was great.

I didn't see that twist coming at all.

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

where he died in the helicopter crash and everything else from that point on wasn't real.

Maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention at the time. That was a real "holy shit" moment when you figure it out.

Oh, well I think we are talking different things here.

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

I meant the whole YOU ARE KONRAD thing that was at the very end. I didn't suspect the helicopter thing at all when playing it but I did see that a writer suggested it when talking about the game after release, but even he threw it out as an interpretation from what I could gather, so it seems like you could just take it that way. But it is quite interesting.

I found the whole game very interesting besides the ending twist, and yeah I meant the very end.

But,

I thought the ending fit really well with the story giving the player options that were hard to make and you feel bad no matter what.

Yes, but I only have a non-video game example: Wild Things. The first half is a terrible movie, it even has a "twist" that you see coming a mile away. I almost walked out, but then Bill Murray shows up and it gets a little better. The twist is revealed in the second to last scene, and the closing credits include short scenes that reveal what was REALLY going on throughout the story. It felt insane at the time, and I walked out feeling surprisingly refreshed and up beat, weird.

Story is a smaller part of video games, and most video games are much longer than a film the first time through, so I'm not sure the same would be possible in that medium. Maybe if the game was structure like Asura's Wrath; even after all the weirdness, that final boss fight (in the DLC) is SUPER WEIRD.

@Superkenon said:

I'm going to say yes, but only when all the right stars align.

I mean, it's a math problem. The bad story and the bad gameplay subtract a certain amount. Does the twist carry a high enough value to bring the equation to a positive number?

Depending on how much BAD GAME I have to slog through, no twist will ever make up the difference!!

Yeah, but the thing is, it doesn't HAVE to be bad.

I don't really understand gamers ever excusing bad writing for ANY reason. I mean, we were just kind of having this discussion in the Bayonetta thread, but if a game has terrible story and good gameplay, why didn't the developers just pull the bad story out instead of forcing it on you?

It's like serving a cake made with bad flour. If the cake tastes awful, nobody cares if the RECIPE is good, or you really did a good job with what you had, or the icing tastes great, the end result is that you served a bad cake. You could have gotten better flower, or served something else.

I'm currently writing a book that has a cool kernal of an idea in the middle. I absolutely AGONIZE over the first half of the book, because I know that I have to do EVERYTHING I can to keep the reader interested until that point. I keep asking myself, every few pages, "why would anyone want to read this when they could be doing something else?" "What's keeping someone reading THIS page RIGHT NOW."

There is no "well if they stick with it for 3 hours, they'll get to the fun part". That's lazy, crappy writing and nobody should have to accept that.

@Nottle said:

@ArtisanBreads said:

@Stonyman65 said:

@ArtisanBreads said:

@Stonyman65 said:

I think Spec Ops The Line was a perfect example of this. It took a game that was pretty much the most drab, mediocre game in existence and made it something really cool.

If the plot twist is done right, and the story actually makes sense and just isn't some crazy incoherent mess, than a twist can make all the difference in the world.

Funny we came to the opposite conclusion. I thought the twist at the end of Spec Ops was dumb and obvious and didn't really make sense but everything leading up was great.

I didn't see that twist coming at all.

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

where he died in the helicopter crash and everything else from that point on wasn't real.

Maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention at the time. That was a real "holy shit" moment when you figure it out.

Oh, well I think we are talking different things here.

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

I meant the whole YOU ARE KONRAD thing that was at the very end. I didn't suspect the helicopter thing at all when playing it but I did see that a writer suggested it when talking about the game after release, but even he threw it out as an interpretation from what I could gather, so it seems like you could just take it that way. But it is quite interesting.

I found the whole game very interesting besides the ending twist, and yeah I meant the very end.

But,

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

You're not Konrad, your Martin Walker some dude with PTSD. Konrad was a separate person that killed himself before you got there. You go crazy and think he is still alive because the lack of intel. Then you get into a crash either die or you live until you find his body realizing the whole war was meaningless and Walker can either take the responsibility for his actions by killing himself or blame Konrad who's been dead so really had no hand in any of the problems you've caused. If you don't die Walker is rescued by the military that can either "save" you even though you'll be mentally scarred forever, you can shoot your saviors and die in the firefight releasing Walker from his pain, or kill them all because you are crazy and bloodthirsty.

I thought the ending fit really well with the story giving the player options that were hard to make and you feel bad no matter what.

I did like the choices in theory but

The VERY end, yes that was cool. But that twist? I don't know... it was a stretch to me. I rather would have had you just get to Konrad and find out he is not what you think he was. This would have required different handling of him throughout but it could have been done. It would have been a lot more like Heart of Darkness with Kurtz, in my ideal scenario.

If you pixie-dust a twist into a game with bad mechanics and an uninteresting plotline, I'm going to hate your game even more. If it's a twist that helps serve the shitty plot then we can maybe talk. I just generally dislike plot twists because most writers don't seem to know how to write without them, and everything outside of their "super cool tweest!" is servicing the twist.

@ImmortalSaiyan said:

Maybe. If there was a nonsensical story but at some point there was a big twist that made it all fit together. Or a generally middling story with one awesome twist like what patrick says about Dragons Dogma.

That's not a plot twist, that's just the story going, in what patrick determined, was an interesting direction.

And again, that in and of itself is a bad game design. If you have a killer ending, it's up to you to tell your story well enough to get people there.

A funny joke isn't funny because of it's punchline. It's funny because of it's telling. The punchline is the reward.

Personally, I got all I needed out of Dragon's Dogma just by Patrick telling that story on the bombcast, and I didn't even think it was THAT interesting.

@Willtron said:

@JazGalaxy said:

@Stonyman65 said:

I think Spec Ops The Line was a perfect example of this. It took a game that was pretty much the most drab, mediocre game in existence and made it something really cool.

If the plot twist is done right, and the story actually makes sense and just isn't some crazy incoherent mess, than a twist can make all the difference in the world.

I disagree with this.

The plot twist in Spec Ops The Line is just as drab and mediocre as the rest of the game. It is literally one of the oldest and most well worn storytelling cliche's of all time.

In discussing it with my brother, I literally set up the game and then said there was a plot twist, in quotation marks, and he immediately guessed the rest of the games plot to the note.

To me personally, I don't feel like plot twists can save a poor game largely due to the nature of plot twists. Character betrayals and whatnot have been going on in gaming as long as there has been gaming. The broad, grand, plot twists that people typically mean when they mention plot twists like "THE KILLER IS YOU!!!!" feel like a betrayal of the nature of videogames. Developers frequently need to take control away from the player for no other reason than to set up the twist they have coming, and that's manipulative and disingenuous.

What I would love to see is games create mechanics in which broad plot twits are possible without the games "writer" ever doing a thing.

Please, yes.

To some degree, Frog Fractions dances with this concept and does it very well.

I think it probably took every bit of restraint the developer had to let the player play what Frog Fractions is, ostensibly, SUPPOSED to be and not force them to do the expanded element. This is a guy who I'm sure can tell a joke.

Mario jumping over the end of the level in World 1-2 and finding the warp zone is another example of what I would consider a great videogame plot twist.

I used to belong to a writer's workshop and I will say now and forever what I said to all those writers back then: plot twists are a crutch. They may seem like a nice way to get the audiences attention but in the end all you're doing is supporting a weak plot with filler. Twists are OK as a "bonus" to a great story, but more often than not writers will use them like a distraction. See M. Night Shyamalan.

Nothing excuses a bad story, especially not a twist ending.

I am of the opinion that you need a relatively strong story to begin with in order for any twist to really work properly. Shitty story with LOLROFLCOPTER TWIST is still a shitty story.

@Ravenlight said:

You know what we need? More cocktail metaphors. Well done, sir!

I like my games like I like my whiskey: brief and resulting in a burning feeling in the back of my throat.

@Getz said:

I used to belong to a writer's workshop and I will say now and forever what I said to all those writers back then: plot twists are a crutch. They may seem like a nice way to get the audiences attention but in the end all you're doing is supporting a weak plot with filler. Twists are OK as a "bonus" to a great story, but more often than not writers will use them like a distraction. See M. Night Shyamalan.

Nothing excuses a bad story, especially not a twist ending.

I totally agree.

Nobody really talks about it now, but Bioware used to be the absolute masters of plot twists. But, the key to those games were that they were a incredibly fun regardless of the story, so the plot twist was just an added benefit.

@Stonyman65: I don't think it was just A twist though in the case of Spec Ops: The Line but the entire story, so IMO I can't really qualify this game as another example that the OP is looking for since it wasn't just the twist that happens in the game that was the "great" thing about it but the entire story.

TO THE OP: No, a twist really can't carry a game for me. A twist can be so great that it's really worth talking about but at the same time if the gameplay is shit it's hard to recommend it to anybody else but instead you end up just probably spoiling it. I think another example that would fit the OP's description somewhat is the ending to The Conduit 2.

Here's a hint: _ _ N _ _ _ _ FORCE.

No matter the medium I say no. It can make a moment near the end of a game enjoyable, but nothing would make the hours of boredom leading up to it fun. I just watched a random movie on netflix last night that was a perfect example of this. The first 20 or so min was fun, then it dragged and was boring the rest of the show untill the last 2-3 min when there was a twist. The twist made me tip my hat at it for not seeing it coming until the last second, but it didn't make all the boring parts better.

No. I think twists are poor excuses for good writing let alone good gameplay in a game.

The twist in Infamous added something memorable to an otherwise forgettable story.