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#1 Edited by niko555 (120 posts) -

I just had a bit of a disagrement with a "friend" and i want to know who was right so i can either laugh att him or say that im sorry.

So the disagrement was about "Are newer games on consoles prettier then the old ones"My answer to that was "Fuck yeah they are i mean look att God of war 2 and compare it to older PS2 games"

I thought it was an pretty obvious answer..... but aparently it wasnt.

Now what he said was " They may look prettier but when you look att the tecnical side of things all console games have the same graphics i.e same amount of quality on textures same lightning etc from beggining to end.

Now im pretty sure he is tottaly and utterly wrong.

But in midst of all the shouting my other friend sudenly agreed with him and said also that he was pretty sure he was right.

So whos right?

PS: Sorry for my shitty english

#2 Posted by Strife777 (1575 posts) -

You're friend is an idiot.

#3 Edited by gosukiller (2324 posts) -

As developers become more familiar with a platform, they learn how to:

1. Make it run better.

2. Know the limitations of a system and focus on what it CAN do and not on what it CAN'T do.

3. Hide ugly stuff.

Your friend should play some launch 360 games. Especially multi-platform games improve because of this, but single-platform games as well.

Just compare Uncharted 1 and 2 to eachother.

#4 Posted by artgarcrunkle (970 posts) -

@Strife777 said:

You're friend is an idiot.

lol

#5 Posted by Brodehouse (9949 posts) -

Look at Halo 4. Now look at Condemned Criminal Origins.

#6 Edited by niko555 (120 posts) -

@gosukiller said:

As developers become more familiar with a platform, they learn how to:

1. Make it run better.

2. Know the limitations of a system and focus on what it CAN do and not on what it CAN'T do.

3. Hide ugly stuff.

Your friend should play some launch 360 games. Especially multi-platform games improve because of this, but single-platform games as well.

Just compare Uncharted 1 and 2 to eachother.

That is exactly what i said to him and he just wouldnt budge.

Thats why i was getting unsure if i was right because he was really bringing upp a storm about it.

He was talking about it like he was a developer or something (he isnt by the way)

#7 Posted by Strife777 (1575 posts) -
@artgarcrunkle

@Strife777 said:

You're friend is an idiot.

lol

I hope you're not laughing at my mistake. I can't edit because I'm on a mobile :P. They really need to take care of that.

So, "Your friend"
#8 Edited by niko555 (120 posts) -

Damn it!

I just linked the topic to him and he went offline.

Was hoping to se what he would come upp with as a counter argument.

maaaan i was hoping for some rage to be thrown around.

You havent truly beaten them until they are screaming att you in frustration.

#9 Posted by nintendoeats (5975 posts) -

I don't think he understands what "prettier" means. He seems to think it's something that can be measured on a graph. Of course the Xbox couldn't push any more polygons in 2005 than it could in 2001, but that doesn't mean that SC3 isn't much MUCH better looking than SC1. You can't measure how pretty something is by how much work it took to make it the way it is. By that logic LA Noire is prettier than Bastion....

#10 Posted by Meowshi (2911 posts) -

Your friend wouldn't happen to be a PC gamer, would he?

#11 Posted by ImmortalSaiyan (4676 posts) -

The technology is always the same, sure but developers do get better at using it, thus better looking games are made.

#12 Posted by niko555 (120 posts) -

@Meowshi: Mostly PC yeah.

Why?

#13 Posted by JoeyRavn (4973 posts) -

@Meowshi said:

Your friend wouldn't happen to be a PC gamer, would he?

I think even the most hardcore gamer will realize that console graphics have become better over time. I mean, you have to be an idiot to deny it, regardless of your platform of choice...

#14 Posted by Bloodgraiv3 (2712 posts) -

The technology hasn't changed, but the developers are getting more and more skilled at using it, and with the list of games coming this year, it's all looking incredible.

#15 Edited by believer258 (11895 posts) -

@Strife777 said:

Your friend is an idiot.

That's the answer.

Anyway, developers just learn to better optimize the technology in a console. The Xbox 360 isn't more powerful, developers have just learned to use the innards in a more efficient manner.

Online
#16 Posted by supamon (1333 posts) -

Tell your friend to go play Gears of war 1 then 3. You'll find small iterative upgrades that make it look better.

#17 Posted by laserbolts (5321 posts) -

What is wrong with your friend?

#18 Posted by Jrinswand (1709 posts) -

Why does it matter what your friends think if you know that you're right? You shouldn't doubt yourself.

#19 Posted by niko555 (120 posts) -

Oh and if i get my friend to reply to the topic then get ready for some MAJOR and i mean MAJOR Rage.

Because this guy just doesnt know how to give upp.

So tune in back tomorow att this topic for your daily dose of INTERNET RAGE!

#20 Posted by niko555 (120 posts) -

@Jrinswand said:

Why does it matter what your friends think if you know that you're right? You shouldn't doubt yourself.

this guy really knows how to get you to think he knows his shit, but really doesnt

#21 Edited by zombie2011 (4973 posts) -

Look at Gears 1 compared to Gears 3 it's quite eye opening. I always thought the Gears games looked the same until i replayed 1, and holy shit there is a massive difference.

#22 Posted by haffy (673 posts) -

So opinions on graphics are subjective right? Because I kind of think he's right. Not in every case, but in general I think he is.

Newer console games to me, just have a shit ton of filters and different shades of dark colours. Older games like Prince of Persia 2008, PGR 3/4 and Dragon age Origins have a lot of contrast and style. Going into different areas, actually feels like going into different areas in those games. From a technical stand point newer games are obviously better. But I appreciate what older games did to make the game feel alive, compared to what happens to certain newer games.

#23 Posted by MrKlorox (11209 posts) -

It's absolutely subjective about whether or not they look "better". But if he's arguing that they don't use more shaders and effects to increase amount of detail and hide the parts you don't want to see, he's crazy. 
 
But your friend sounds like he'll find a way to contort what he said into fitting the truth. "Nah man I was talking about the number of polygons and resolution of textures!" Or something like that.

#24 Edited by niko555 (120 posts) -

@MrKlorox said:

It's absolutely subjective about whether or not they look "better". But if he's arguing that they don't use more shaders and effects to increase amount of detail and hide the parts you don't want to see, he's crazy. But your friend sounds like he'll find a way to contort what he said into fitting the truth. "Nah man I was talking about the number of polygons and resolution of textures!" Or something like that.

Oh god i bet he is going to do that. and he did

Now just so everybody knows i had another friend in the conversation and i asked him countless times if i had understood corectly what he said.

And he said that i did.

He answered and this is his answer

Difference between DirectX: DirectX 11 has tessellation. DirectX 11 makes graphics look more realistic as it makes more "3D" things stand out. Tessellation is the process of creating a two-dimensional plane using the repetition of a geometric shape with no overlaps and no gaps.

Now when you know these things than I never said a game couldn't look better or nice. I said it doesn't get more textures because of the fact that it's limited to the console engine. The console cannot support higher DirectX than it had from the start and since Xbox 360 is what...6 years old? It does not include such luxury. Thus the limitation and my saying that "It does not get better or more textures". However they can get it to looks better by applying other means and of course because they are too scared in the beginning to try out the limitations of the console engine. Higher resolution textures being one of the things which gets the motor running a bit stronger but is one of the things the game developers experience they can do with the engine in the console.

What you said in that thread is not what I said in our argument. You need to be more specific as I am here otherwise your statement fails. You need to learn to recognize what others say and try to evaluate those sentences before taking it as a direct attack towards you, it is a very bad thing to have as a person when you argue a lot and of course since you tend to not really listen to the other part than...it all falls apart.

Ursäkta att jag skrev på engelska men det första stycken kom från en speldesigner från Bethesda samt lite av den andra faktan nedanför. Men lätt att fortsätta på engelska då när man börjat redan. Gillar språket mer visserligen också.

"Are newer games on consoles prettier then the old ones". Not the question at hand. The question would be "Does newer games have more and better textures than previous ones?" and the answer would be: No. As seen above.

"Are games prettier" is a statement regarding opinion, not fact. You can find a game to be prettier than the last one and I find it not to be because I do not like lighting in games however you do. For an example that is.

And no I never said that games have the same graphic. I said that games have the same amount of textures because of the limitations of the console engine.

There you have it. Case closed yao.

#25 Posted by mosespippy (4169 posts) -

The hardware doesn't change so they all games on a device have the same potential. I think that's what your friend is trying to say. It's how the developers use the hardware's resources that determines the quality of the graphics. The more that the developers use the hardware, the more they learn and the more they can optimize.

#26 Posted by iam3green (14390 posts) -

it's all about optimizing the games. look at launch games for any console and then look at the ending the console and you will see different qualities.

#27 Posted by niko555 (120 posts) -

Well whatever he said he said it really damn poorly if thats the case.

#28 Posted by fetchfox (1264 posts) -

You're right. He needs to accept his statements stupidity.

#29 Posted by mandude (2669 posts) -

Your friend seems like a fun guy.

#30 Posted by Strife777 (1575 posts) -

He's still wrong and he explains poorly.

"Do newer games have more and better textures? No." Yes they do!

#31 Posted by MooseyMcMan (10997 posts) -

Look at any video game system that was around for more than a year, and compare the newest games with the oldest games. Even most of the mediocre looking games released today look better than the stuff released back in 2005 when the 360 launched.

Moderator
#32 Posted by Fearbeard (830 posts) -
@Strife777
You're friend is an idiot.
This x 10
#33 Posted by niko555 (120 posts) -

[10:07:13 PM] Me: Prefer giantbomb

[10:07:17 PM] Me: Nice people there

[10:14:26 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): True.

[10:14:51 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): But you should read the things above. You need to learn to listen more carefully.

[10:15:04 PM] Me: or you need to learn to explain more clearly

[10:16:57 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): I did explain clearly. You just refused to listen to me because you're high and mighty.

[10:17:08 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): Get of the preacher chair Nikola and listen to other people.

[10:17:34 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): The earth is orbiting around the sun, not around you.

[10:19:24 PM] Me: Ha, man you are taking it way to far man.

[10:19:48 PM] Me: You sound like the one who is "high and mighty"

[10:20:40 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): Actually the fact is I know I am not. But I argue from facts. You argue from opinions. That's the difference. Opinion are often more attached to you because it's really what you believe and hard to let go so when facts arrive it's harder to breathe them in.

[10:21:17 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): When you have an argument you THINK you listen but you really don't. All I heard was you sighing and then telling me the same thing over and over.

[10:22:05 PM] Me: hey, that is exactly what i heard from you. repeating over and over and not explaining it more clearly.

[10:22:45 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): I explained what I ment with textures etc. Even the others in the coversation knew what I ment and he even agreed with me, he just didn't want to get into the argument himself.

[10:23:15 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): I explained to you exactly what I ment and that I ment the textures and not the overall game and so the others also agreed

[10:23:20 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): But you disagreed with that too

[10:23:44 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): That's usually when you stomp the other person and say "It's like talking to a brick wall"

[10:23:50 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): Which it was.

[10:24:14 PM] Me: hoooo man... thats thats jsut great what you are saying and i get it

[10:24:16 PM] Me: i really do

[10:24:36 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): yeah I really don't care honestly.

[10:24:51 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): What you think is a lesser concern.

[10:24:52 PM] Me: no isee that from that wall of text

[10:24:58 PM] Me: clearly no care in the world

[10:25:02 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): That was within the argument

[10:25:05 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): Not about this

[10:25:10 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): That I do care about because you were wrong.

[10:25:15 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): This I do not care about

[10:25:22 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): Because this is just you being a total douche

[10:25:30 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): And trust me, I am not the only one who feels the same way ^^

[10:26:07 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): I am not the only one who thinks these things or knows it for that matter

[10:26:17 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): The others do as well, they just dont care cause they are awesome and nice people

[10:26:41 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): But I do care because I don't want to talk to idiots who claim themselves to be right all the time. Even when facts do come up. It's annoying.

[10:26:59 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): If facts come up to me. Ill admit I was wrong. Plain and simple.

[10:27:05 PM] Me: All this from something badly explained.

[10:27:20 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): Nope something well explained. Just something you didn't want to listen to

[10:27:24 PM] Me: really man. there are no hard felings here im jsut looking for what was right and wrong

[10:27:27 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): The others who were there with us understood me

[10:27:37 PM] Me: others? Friend was the only one

[10:27:52 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): Alright Friend then. I am confused by them sometimes, sound the same >.<

[10:27:56 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): He understood me and agreed.

[10:28:06 PM] Me: he barely listened to the conversation

[10:28:11 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): He did listen trust me

[10:28:15 PM] Me: i talked to him after to get his side of it

[10:28:17 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): he just didnt want to get in the middle of it

[10:28:40 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): They always listen. They just dont want to get involved.

[10:28:53 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): Quite simple really.

[10:29:18 PM] Me: i was trying to get the facts from Friend. not his oppinion who was right or wrong

[10:29:53 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): Yeah and the fact was he agreed with what I said because he understood. He even told you so. But then you went back to what you said from the beginning and acted like you didn't hear a word I said.

[10:30:08 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): That's when it's reached an end point and you just have to stop.

[10:30:21 PM] Strå (Ace aka Graphit): Listening to reason isn't one of your strong suits.

#35 Posted by Fattony12000 (7404 posts) -

Shit, guys, he went offline.

Online
#36 Posted by Strife777 (1575 posts) -
@niko555 "Friend" you said? He sounds like a prick to me.
#37 Posted by Hunkulese (2721 posts) -
@Brodehouse
Look at Halo 4. Now look at Condemned Criminal Origins.
That's a pretty useless comparison. Why are you comparing completely different games, made by different developers with massively different budgets. On top of that Halo 4 isn't out yet.

You can just as easily compare Reach with Halo 3 and have a argument that actually makes sense.
#38 Posted by Barrock (3533 posts) -

Just show him Gears of War and then Gears of War 3.

#39 Edited by niko555 (120 posts) -

Well for me it seems like he is bending his words all around the place now.

Because i made sure to ask him andmy friend multiple times to confirm what he was saying.

But to bad i cant get hard evidence for what im saying.

Should record all my conversations from now on maybe?

#40 Posted by MordeaniisChaos (5730 posts) -

@gosukiller: Tenchu Z heheheheheheheheheheheh

This is actually a really interesting subject to me, because of the nature of where graphics were with the release of the 360, which actually doesn't support a lot of the stuff we kind of take for granted, and as a result they had to figure out creative ways to go at it.A lot of how shaders have evolved over the years has changed a lot, and the 360 is a DX9 piece of hardware. DX10 and DX11 are both pretty substantially more capable and versatile than DX9, and a lot of the DX11 effects we see on PC have to be sort of 'figured out' on consoles. This is a big part of why games today on consoles especially are so heavily post-processed and shader heavy, instead of focusing on lighting and textures. Those have a significant impact on what a lot of us see as "looking better."

Look at the recent Killzone games, 2 in particular. I think that game actually looks kinda poor, because I see right past all of the muck and see the shitty textures and piss poor particles. I mean, aesthetically, I really dig the game. But unlike most people, I thought it looked mediocre. Everyone else though thought it looked fantastic, and that was because of how they hid the texture quality, how they used post processing and lighting techniques and an excellent aesthetic to overcome some of the engine's weaker sides.

So while a lot of it has certainly been optimization, that's not the whole side of the... toast... There's more to it than that. We've just seen developers figure out how to emulate or recreate effects that are possible within DX11 and new shader models and all that, but inside of DX9. That takes a lot of creativity, and because of things like GDC, a lot of sharing happens in the industry, and that means a lot of people learn how one team did something, and they can adapt that to their engine. Look at things like geometric water. Halo 3 was a big part of why that ended up being something of a fad (short lived, sadly) for a couple years. They figured out something cool that looked good, the rest of the industry was able to figure out how to do it, perhaps with some help from a presentation or talk on the Halo engine that included some discussion on that subject.

Graphics are cool :3

#41 Posted by punkxblaze (2985 posts) -
2011
2006

I rest all of my cases, your friend is a crazy person.

#42 Posted by MrKlorox (11209 posts) -
@Strife777 said:
@niko555 "Friend" you said? He sounds like a prick to me.
This should replace the first comment in the thread.
#43 Posted by MideonNViscera (2257 posts) -

@Strife777 said:

You're friend is an idiot.

Irony alert!

#44 Posted by Scrawnto (2446 posts) -

@MordeaniisChaos said:

Graphics are cool :3

Graphics are cool! I would love to go to SIGGRAPH someday. I took a few computer graphics courses in college. It's so much fun, because you get such clear feedback when you change your code. I wish I could be a graphics programmer or a technical artist, but I don't have enough experience with that stuff at this time.

#45 Edited by niko555 (120 posts) -

Thanks for all the responses.

You have all been a great audience.

and i dont think im going to talk with my "not so friend" anymore.

To much of "thats not what i said".

I have never had any problems with understanding any of my other friends.

#46 Posted by yoshisaur (2717 posts) -

Sounds like your friend is being a devil's advocate just for the hell of it. It's common-sense to know that technology ages better than when stagnant or retro-active. Sometimes you can have beautiful "retro-inspired" games that bring on the feeling of nostalgia, but it's far from common.

#47 Posted by Terramagi (1159 posts) -

No, your friend is right, your 360 needs to download more RAM.

#48 Edited by RedRoach (1191 posts) -

Get your friend to play early 360 or ps3 games. They look rough. Get him to compare Skyrim to Oblivion, or Gears 1 to 3, or Uncharted 1 to 3. Over the years developers learn to push a console to it's extremes. Even for CoD, look at CoD 4 and then look at MW3, there is even a big difference there.

#49 Posted by tallTuck94 (553 posts) -

I think games like Heavy Rain and LA Noir are prime examples, The facial textures that move and change is a perfect example of graphics getting better.

#50 Posted by Zelyre (1193 posts) -

As developers learn a platform, they get better not just at optimization, they learn tricks that help with performance as well.

There are quite a few tricks a developer can use to squeeze more water out of a sponge.

I see a few Skyrim examples here. So, I'll add one of my own.

This is from my modded version of Skyrim. The poly count is quite high for something you don't really pay a lot of attention on. In fact, I didn't even know just how low poly the chains to the drawbridge were in the unmodded game until I actually looked at it.

This is the drawbridge right outside of Whiterun's main gates as you're walking up from the stables. Without loading up Skyrim, how many polygons do you think the original chain model has? A flat square or rectangular surface would have two polygons. To give it any kind of depth, you'd need three sides which would make a toblorone type shape.

Now, fire up Skyrim, travel to Whiterun and look at this chain. Then look at every chain in the game. Chances are, you don't care. Or, now that its been pointed out, you'll never be able to unsee what you never saw.

Its little things like that that give developers more wiggle room when it comes to performance.