Discussing sex and gender in the industry: Why so toxic?

The difference is that it's the men who hold most of the power, not the women. And this is especially true when it comes to the gaming industry. The industry's focus on always appealing to male gamers, at the expense of alienating female gamers, will only end up hurting the gaming industry in the long run.

And logically speaking, there is no way female gamers would be able to carry out an "inquisition" against men, simply because of the fact that men hold most of the power in the gaming community. If a female gamer speaks critically about sexism in the gaming industry, then she'll be the one on the receiving end of an "inquisition" by hordes of fanboys, not the other way around. An "inquisition" usually happens when people want to uphold the status quo against "heretics" challenging the status quo (in this case critical female gamers), not the other way around.

@wolfgame: You do realize that he was wearing a "Social Justice Warrior" badge on the stream last night, right? I don't think self awareness is an issue.

@flacracker: So too, apparently, is our ability to have a frank conversation about something, because everyone is just into making pithy self-aggrandizing comments within 140 characters.

Small thought: Who cares! Unless something is wildly inappropriate let's say a rape scene it bears little discussion. The whole "sexism" topic is in itself a soapbox where neither party is right nor wrong. Vidja games!

@marokai: ya got a lot of things I agree with in here, I see a lot of gaming personalities/journalists kinda dog piling on this topic without any obligation to make substantive changes, it's all well and good to be a hero for the mistreated, but these people have no realistic stake in how women are treated in the games industry. I just think it would be unfortunate to try and convince those who have real problems that by twitter brawling, patrick and others are influencing actual change. I realize we are moving into a social media world, one I frankly don't understand, but let's be adults and realize that sexism and REAL topics impacting discrimination in any industry is going to require more than ego stroking on a twitter handle.

@milkman: Wasn't aware of that, but that only seems to further confuse me when he seems to be taking a heightened level of offense over something that is by all accounts pretty silly.

It's Patrick's personal Twitter, posting it doesn't "accomplish" anything, but neither do 99% of all tweets ever. Twitter is just stuff that amuses/interests the person tweeting about it. I have no idea why you and so many other people that have a problem with Patrick care so much about what he tweets.

@russman588: I mean, it probably has a lot to do with the fact that it's a public speaking venue. I'm not peering through the window into his bedroom by following his twitter account or something.

Hell, I don't even have a problem with Patrick himself. Just on this issue. Why would I spent hours and hours of my life watching content from him if I actually disliked him that much? This is what I'm talking about; you disagree strongly about one thing, and it's assumed you must hate their very being. I'm capable of strongly, even angrily, disagreeing with a person on something, but still liking them.

@marokai: I think you're putting way too much stock into things like Twitter. It's a tweet. Who says it's suppose to accomplish anything? The Social Justice Warrior badge was just a funny joke. No need to take it so seriously.

@wolfgame: You might be misinterpreting his level of offense. I'm sure he would agree that it's pretty silly.

@milkman: It's not that I mean to take his tweets that seriously or anything and more that I just dislike it when people approach a serious conversation or something and immediately deflect criticism with a dumb accusatory joke that has nothing to do with anything. Like, if you criticized Obama or something, and immediately the response was "ohoho, and I bet you think he's a muslim, too!" That's basically the equivalent. I think the term "Social Justice Warrior" is super stupid, but I don't think it's helpful to paint with a broad brush and imply that everyone who disagrees with you is the type of d-bag who would unironically use that phrase.

@marokai: I think you're putting way too much stock into things like Twitter. It's a tweet. Who says it's suppose to accomplish anything? The Social Justice Warrior badge was just a funny joke. No need to take it so seriously.

Credit@milkman

That's part of what I don't understand though, I would say sexism in the gaming industry is a topic that needs to be addressed, but if we aren't even trying to accomplish anything by tackling the subject then it just comes across as empty vapid grandstanding from all involved.

Fair enough, I just don't think Patrick's Twitter account is relevant to this thread in any way, shape, or form. Serious issues can be joked about, it still doesn't undercut the point they're trying to make. Heck, just look at The Daily Show.

I've seen Patrick interact with people in comments threads on this site, I don't think he's the type of person who paints all people who disagree with him with the same brush. He will occasionally interact with people who are disagreeing with him reasonably in a more meaningful and fair way. On the other hand, he will gladly make fun of people who are actually being immature or juvenile in their discussion of this topic on his own personal public speaking venue, that's what that one tweet is about. The one person who made that image actually does need to grow up.

@russman588 said:

You certainly won't get any argument from me about that.

@kentonclay: Don't worry about the length of your post, that was awesome. To be fair (bias here) it's not only what I wholeheartedly agree with but it's mostly worded in the same way I've thought about it, so of course I would love reading it.

I'm just glad that in my case what I wholeheartedly agree with isn't based on a value system that shuts people out or curbs empathy :P

I find it perfectly accurate that Patrick Klepek cannot imagine why someone would not want to hear his specific brand of political activism when they visit video game sites for video game content.

I see casual racism everyday when I go to work. I'm talking young people too, as much as we'd like it to go away that's just not how the world works.

Those that have decided to write about gender issues in games that are journalists are pundits. As the people who disagree with them voice their opinions, the pundits mock those they disagree with. Alienating people in the center but creating a passionate following of those that defend them.

What ends up happening is that the only people engaging on the issue are the most extreme on either side. This is why it is so toxic. I wrote about this more on my personal blog.

I think you might be making a mountain out of a mole hill. It sounds like your talking about the Apartheid or something.

I don't know why people keep beating this drum, because it's just wrong. A while ago, I remember seeing a news story about this woman's kid who wanted to play with a neighbor's dog, and the dog ended up biting the kid. The woman didn't like that, so she went next door and lured the dog out with some food, then poured gasoline on the dog, and then set the dog on fire. Then she went inside and tweeted about it using a twitter account tied to her real name. She was proud of what she did, laughed about it, and closed one of her tweets with "#notalldogsgotoheaven"

People will actually admit to felony animal cruelty using their real life name over the internet. Telling a random stranger that you don't agree with to go fuck themselves is nothing in comparison, and real life names wouldn't change that.

@oldirtybearon said:

@musai: My guess is that the people who sling that kind of shit are either trolling (people who don't give a fuck and just get their kicks from being a shithead) or bitter. Bitter because of precisely what you described; people who have been ostracized or marginalized because of their hobby. They see what they assume to be one of those very people muscling in on their turf and they don't like it. They're the kind of people who make images like this:

This kind of thing is noticeable in pretty much all of "nerd" culture. Whenever someone who does not fit in with the perceived norms of the subculture presents themselves (for gaming let's say it's a woman, a jock/bro, whatever) they are immediately targeted for harassment. It's a bit like animals who piss on their territory and to try and scare off others. It's slowly changing, but I don't think it'll be gone any time soon.

This is also probably why people like Patrick get so much shit. They don't see a guy who is talking about providing an "inclusive atmosphere" (i.e. don't be an asshole to everybody you meet), they see a herald whose horn blows for the destruction of their hobby; their subculture. In their minds, letting these "new" people have a voice is akin to giving up their own. After all, it wasn't that long ago that the industry had to fight tooth and nail to keep itself from governmental regulation. People like Jack Thompson and Leland Yee were less than ten years ago. As a result, these people have grown defensive, and so any perceived "outsider" is met with a cold shoulder.

Unless you look and act like they do, of course. Then you have free admittance to the gaming/nerd kingdom.

I actually really like that picture. When I was young(er) girls did not play games with the nerds, and it's no surprise that the game development community is dominated by men. It's going to take a while for anything to change

Regardless of what side of this debate your on, this is a poor way to approach it. "Who cares? Vidja games!" is nothing more than a celebration of ignorance and a refusal to look at things with a critical eye. Even if you're of the opinion that there's nothing wrong with the status quo, you should at least put in the effort to understand what the status quo truly is, and then construct your opinion from that in a manner that isn't mere deflection and refusal.

I don't know who Zoe Quinn is, I have never been given a hard time for my hobby, I don't go to or post in any other forum but this one, I don't care what anyone says on Twitter, I usually avoid anything that doesn't have to do with a specific game topic when I do come here, I don't care who game developers are or what they look like or what their gender is, and I haven't noticed anything that seems overtly sexist on the rare occasions that I do decide to delve into the world of video game person forums besides this one.

Does this make me an outlander in a world full of people who take unimportant things way too seriously? Probably.

I guess my point is that most people who play video games may never experience what you are bringing up. That may be why people don't think it is important.

No, one person will admit to felony animal cruelty using their real life name over the Internet. I have friends teaching in SK, and hate speech and cyberbullying isn't the ridiculous epidemic there that it is here. Your example is a clearly disturbed individual. Many people who spew bullshit over the Internet would immediately stop cold in their tracks if there was some sort of accountability.

Actually, I think "neither party is right nor wrong" is the BEST way to approach this debate. Subjectivity is key here, and many on both sides of the argument don't seem to understand that. Instead, you have one group who prefer to tell people that something IS sexist, and another group that telling people that the first group is wrong, and that something is NOT sexist.

Example of the former:

Or just leave the discussing to those who care, and simply go on with your life enjoying your video games. There's nothing wrong with leaving it to those who are more interested, but suggesting it's a non-issue is more that a little naive.

As for the toxicity, could be a bunch of things. Someone just trolling, someone feeling like their hobby is being attacked, someone feeling like they're being attacked, etc. And those are applicable on both sides.

Because whether they're adults or kids, most people discussing it are way too immature and disrespectful to create a meaningful dialogue on the subject. Pretty simple.

@theht said:

Definitely agreeing with this sentence here.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't like it when people are attacked as being sexist just for trying to create a cool looking character, or trying to tell an interesting story, or (heaven forbid) giving a character believable flaws.

When Carolyn attacks the creators of Persona 4 for being 'homophobic,', I get upset. That game does a great job of developing characters who have conflicting feelings regarding sexuality, and how they respond to them. It's crazy to suggest that the creators have an irrational hatred for gay people.

When Patrick attacks DanganRonpa for 'not handling gender issues well, because there's a character who (spoilers),' I get upset because he makes it sound like (spoilers) is a negative or bad thing, and it's one of the best portrayals of a character like that in a game, especially considering all the other characters treating that person with respect.

When pretty much anybody attacks the creators of Tomb Raider because "a woman with a large bust only exists to titillate men" and that she "can't be taken seriously as an archaeologist," it upsets me. Putting it bluntly, I have some big ol' tits myself, and it feels kind of personal when everyone associates a busty character to 'only exist as male fantasy' and implying that women who naturally have that kind of body can't be seen as anything other than a sex object.

And when Anita calls Miyamoto 'a serial misogynist' for making a series about two brothers who save the land, by dunking a dinosaur in lava so that the princess can get back to ruling the kingdom, I get upset because that kind of thing is a serious accusation. You don't just casually insist that someone has a genuine hatred for all women just because he goes for the 'unlikely plumber/elf boy saves the world so that the ruler can rule it again' storyline. The amount of people who claim that Miyamoto is a misogynist after hearing her say that is shocking.

So yup. From my viewpoint, there's a lot of attacking from journalists about fictional and creative games. There's also a lot of 'speaking on behalf of all women' which I don't tend to approve of, either. I just want to play games with a lot of creativity, y'know? Not be branded a misogynist homophobic scumbag every other week just because I think the costumes look awesome in Soul Calibur, or that Kerrigan in Starcraft looks awesome, or because I don't see anything wrong with characters that look visually attractive, or because I like playing some games that have male characters. Those kinds of accusations on gaming sites tend to feel pretty personal, and it weirds me the heck out when I say something like "Oh man, I loved DOA2 on the Dreamcast!" online, and a bunch of people suddenly rush to call me a gross disgusting misogynist, even though I'm a girl (as irrelevant as it may be). I just like stylish fighting games, and I don't see anything wrong with characters that look stylish within it. D:

@uitdetoekomst said:

If you are playing games without positive/any representation of women, then you're experiencing it.

Or, as is often the case, if you're a girl whose gaming hobby isn't taken seriously because you're a girl, then you're experiencing it.

It isn't really uncommon. The person may not even realize that it shouldn't be that way - especially if they have been conditioned to believe it themselves. Just because a game doesn't throw around sexist slurs doesn't mean that it is doing everything right. And while this sort of thing isn't of value to everyone, I think it is pretty extreme to say it isn't important at all.

Because you have a small minority of people pushing a misplaced agenda down the throats of the majority. The worst part is that those people who are a minority think that they are some large group of people. The sad part is that those people pushing this crap are a bunch of elitist San Franciscans. These same people like to constantly point out misleading statistics, like 47% of all gamers are women. Yes, that's true, but the majority of hardcore/console players are not women, the vast vast majority are men. So trying to push a ridiculous feminist agenda on a large male gaming base is irritating.

I can certainly attest to this. At least where I live, in England, when I was growing up in school, I didn't know a single other girl who played games, at least in the same way I did. Usually they'd have played one or two games, and then have had enough of it. (Tetris, Mario, and Monkey Island were the most common ones I remember!) That's not for me not trying either, I would blabber about video games all day along, but other girls I knew were more into fashion, fitness, dance, and beauty. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, I'm just saying they had different hobbies to gaming. I would play around with makeup and accessories a tiny bit each year, then go back to playing video games, they would play with video games once or twice, then go back to fashion.

So yeah, when games like Street Fighter 2 had seven male characters and one female character, my perspective was always "Yup, that ratio seems about right," given it was a game about muscly characters, and then I'd pick Blanka over Chun-Li anyway because screw the lady, this thing can electrocute himself. Heck yeah.

I guess my point is that growing up, as the only girl who obsessed over games that I ever knew, amongst a group of all dudes, I never once experienced people attacking me for playing games with cool stylish women in until the last couple of years, and it's all coming from game journalists telling me that the games I love playing are 'supposed to offend and outrage me' and that 'I'm part of the problem of female gamers if I disagree!'

I used to consider gamers to be awesome dudes who didn't give a crap about what sex you were, or what games you played, and just had the mindframe of 'entertainment is awesome.' Now suddenly I feel like being amongst gamers on forums and the such, anybody could lash out at me at any time, including reviewers and journalists, for 'liking the wrong games' because that 'makes you a misogynist homophobe.' In short, these attacks created the problem, and are certainly not solving anything.

We were talking about the Inquisition, not the Apartheid... Also, the people who are most guilty of "making a mountain out of a mole hill" are the over-defensive fanboys who are incapable of handling any criticism towards their favourite games or hobbies. It was precisely because they made such a huge "mountain out of a mole hill" over Anita Sarkeesian that she received so much attention and money in the first place.

@marokai said:

As much as their detractors would believe otherwise, however, they are still games press. Writing articles about the fallacies of GTA's world structure makes sense for someone who is paid to evaluate the design of video games, and how they could do an effective job of appealing to an audience. Suggesting they'd be better served by helping a homeless person is a non-argument in this case. You could say the same for a film critic, or a carpenter, or a goddamn circus clown, but those people still have to perform a job to earn a paycheck.

Hell, if you looked, I'm sure you'd find several dozen articles by journalists or bloggers about the representation of homeless NPCs in the GTA series. Because they found a way to marry their job to their principles and took advantage of it.

Patrick has responded to more personal and professional insults with an invitation to elevate/continue the conversation than any public face on the internet could rightfully be expected to. I don't think the people you're mentioning are nearly so close-minded as you fear they are, and I suspect that were you to express your concerns over their argument (or the presentation of their argument) in a forum that was conducive to constructive discussion, they would consider your concerns honestly. No one wants to present their opinion in a less effective manner than it has the potential to be presented.

Also, I have not seen the The Escapist video, but generally speaking, anticipating the criticisms of your position does not win you the debate once those criticisms arise.

@wolfgame said:

An ability to laugh at yourself would serve you well Patrick, if ya can't at-least chuckle and display some type of self awareness when trolls make relatively casual remarks about "social justice warrior" then it is going to be a long and bumpy ride. This is the biggest problem, it's ok to tackle these tough issues but the people supposedly standing up for a righteous cause do nothing but kick a hyper active hornets nest when confronted with 3rd grade trolling.

He was wearing an "SJW" (a term created to undermine the sincerity of the ideals he holds) police badge throughout the stream yesterday. He recently declared himself Giant Bomb's "new anime editor." He once danced around in a hotdog suit in front of thousands of people. If Patrick Klepek doesn't know how to laugh at himself, then we are but a bunch of ultra-somber, elderly Scottish priests, doomed to recite classical tragedies until our fingernails cut into our skin and we can no longer turn the pages for the blood and tears that have seeped into them.

What the fuck did he just do!?

Don't let it dishearten you. There's a lot to be encouraged about.

It's certainly toxic because it matters. Since it matters, people are rather invested in it. The more people get invested in something, the more potentially toxic to discussion it becomes.

But in this case, there's a lot of reason for hope. Don't let the toxicity worry you too much. All worthwhile efforts to improve things have resistance, but no matter how much anyone yells or denies it, sex and gender will continue to grow as a topic within gaming.

I have at times lamented how topics like this can bring out truly terrible comments, and it unfortunately brings out the worst in some usually decent people. But that's the very nature of long-standing issues only seeing more light in recent times. There's a massive understanding gap, and most of those pushing for improvement are still new to the effort. So you face entrenched resistance with an imperfect challenge, and things can get messy. But that's because it's young, at least in videogames. Heck, even the larger modern effort for improvement regarding sex and gender within much of the world is still young in the big picture, and so, it is an uphill journey that is fortunately already showing signs of improvement. What was once an if is now more of a when.

And as far as around here, as some have brought up, I think there are changing tides. More and more people seem to understand, and many more are opening up to it at least having a discussion. We do have a few main commenters who bring down topics like this and add to general toxicity, but they will get tired. Even some moderators are rather resistant to topics such as this, and they help hold back efforts to improve Giant Bomb for everyone. But even they will tire. Because as long as people care, and as long as more people are open to understanding all of this, it won't just go away. It will still be here and elsewhere, and no efforts to keep it down or stamp it out will succeed in the long run.

The staff have rather openly grown on this over the years, as well, and with them, so too goes Giant Bomb. Some people around here may put up a good fight, but those of us who care about gaming and all of the different gamers who enjoy it will not just lay down because it's difficult. It's tiring; no doubt. And I lose heart at times because some people make it especially frustrating. But then I am encouraged by others who stand up against the more destructive elements here and elsewhere. And I remember that no matter how loud or strong some people may fight to the bitter end, this is something worth talking about and improving on.

Because it matters, it will often be a toxic topic. But because it matters, we can't give up on it.

@scarycrayons:

This post. So many things right about this post. I feel a bit embarrassed that I've not spent more time talking about the other side of things, and what I feel the progressive side does wrong sometimes. I only sort of glossed over my problems with some of Anita's examples, but everything you've said is really spot on. It really isn't fair to label someone with something they don't want to take ownership of. Miyamoto is not a serial mysogynist, in my view, and the creators of Danganronpa are not purposely being sexist, as some would imply. I'm not trying to speak for women, but I do think there are a lot of problems with the way women are represented in the industry. I've worked in the industry for a few years, and the sexism is definitely there, but I think a lot of the commentary on games is missing the point: it's not about the content of the games, it's about the fact that games themselves are still made overwhelmingly by white males. Content is rarely intended to be sexist or misogynistic, and I hate assertions that anyone who has made a game with the damsel trope is furthering that sexism. Satire, humour and irony are lost on some people. Take Spelunky for example. It always bothered me that Anita called Derek Yu out for using the damsel trope; the game isn't even really about rescuing the "damsels" in the first place!

I'd like to see more focus on the challenges faced by women working in the video game and tabletop gaming industry. Maybe I'll even start looking into it myself.

You guys, I've got the solution. Let's just be nice and polite to each other, no matter what. A little Southern hospitality goes a long way.

Also, @truthtellah put it way better than my stupid ass ever could.

Pointing out an example of a problem in something isn't the same as attacking, though. The tricky part is that this stuff is everywhere, its pervasive, but it can be hard to pick out, too. That's why pointing it out has value in and of itself, so that you can learn to recognize it.

This right here is the post of the thread. I don't know if there's anything else for me to say but goodnight.

@dark_lord_spam: It's not that I think Patrick is closed minded, because he's certainly not. And I have always appreciated his willingness to take criticism, otherwise I wouldn't even bother talking about him in this context at all. I will always believe this is the best thing Patrick has ever written, and I have it bookmarked. The press itself, though, exhibits a startling timidity when it comes to having a diverse set of opinions on this subject.

The topic creator responded to my first post in this thread a bit earlier, and I never did reply, but I believe he basically asked me "So what can we do, then? How can we get more people to take notice of this and take it to heart?" and my response would be: Be kind to others, but also be reasonable. Don't become a nanny. Don't become the word/thought police. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, etc. If you want to get people to take your message to heart, you have to seem like you're not unhinged. Questioning the treatment of women in a game like GTA V isn't a stretch, it's fair, it's worth a question. A reasonable person can understand why that question would be raised given the content of the series. But then there's people who whine about the main character of Puppeteer not being female, and it seems like the sort of thing only a crazy person would get upset about.

That, when the desire to be more diverse and more progressive starts sounding arbitrary and petty, is where there should exist more grown-up people in the press saying "I agree with what you're saying generally, but come on. Pick your fucking battles." There does not exist that person; at least, not that I'm aware of. There is no one that says no, no one that calls out others for being a little too silly, or for being a little too sensitive. You eventually realize growing up that maturity comes through criticism, through serious introspection, through being able to surround yourself with people who aren't just your yes-men, and believing in something unconditionally and without limit is only the sort of thing you do when you want to try out Communism for a week or two as a teenager.

The games press lacks that respectability because there is no one yet who decides to be the combo breaker and says "I'm as progressive as the next guy, but let's be serious here" and not be ostracized for it, which is why the credibility of the games press is being constantly undermined and there is only increasing hostility to the idea of their very existence. Like politics, no one wants to be the guy that openly speaks out against their own "team." I think it does the conversation surrounding this topic, and others, a great deal of harm. When you look at a lot of the reaction from many people in the press over past controversies, it's easy to just think the entire games press just kind of needs to grow up. It's hard to look at some of the people in the press, knowing some of the things that have come out of their mouths (or fingers) and think "Yes, this is who I entrust with a leadership role in discussing complicated gender and sexual issues."

With any issue, credibility is paramount.

@musai: its not that she's a female dev; its that people are assholes in general. There are no stereotypes for assholes...they are everywhere. Think just conservatives/republicans are assholes/racists/hypocrties? You're dead wrong. Think that just men are sexist? You're wrong. Think that just anonymous people without their real names are trolls and assholes? Nope. This is a human condition/affliction.

I like her: she's talented, funny, cool, and easy on the eyes/ears. Sadly, there is a small, vocal minority of gamer who wants to make these people (men and women) in the game's industry feel like shit for no real reason at all. They feel entitled. They are the breed of asshole who think they are entitled to be trolls because its entertaining to them and if you have a problem with them you can block them, leave the game, etc. All we can do is marginalize these hateful, toxic, unproductive people and call them out on their hate.

just reading the animal crossing GDC talk, and the development team was 50% women, and they were praising women in game and how it's really about communication. That's a really positive thing to read. But then on the internet everyone gets all angry and explosive when they hear the negative or anyone trying to say "hey this isn't cool." And then we get into this same problem of people using the internet because of the anonymity. It's weird, we all want to hear just happy things, but then get all frustrated when we have to question something.

There's more to life than caring about what people think about a stupid hobby. Turn the computer off and see life as it is. You'll realise how small this problem is

I think people are over defensive about games after so many years of witch hunts "Games are causing youth violence" , "Games make kids stupid" etc etc. So when you just start attacking games for stuff people will get sensitive about it. I think their is merit to sexism in video games, but I think a lot of the time it's blown out proportion and unfairly judged (I mean remember the puppeteer game? wtf). I remember G4 was attacking tombraider before it came out as sexist, because the main character moaned when she got hurt (but even stated that Nathan drake did the same thing but it just felt different).

I mean it's going to be a hard balance between legitimate complaints about the games and industry, and just sensationalist looking for youtube and site hits. I can kind of understand both sides a little, but I think every situation should be looked at on it's on merit and not just called sexist because someone said so.

Still reading through the thread, but I think this comment is inaccurate and ignorant. This shit never just stays on the web - the mentality that accepts assholes harassing women online also accepts the harassment of women in all walks of life. There is a definite connection between social acceptance that "trolls will be trolls" when they tell women to fuck off back to the kitchen and that "boys will be boys" when guys scream at me to show them my tits when I walk down the street.

Because people are bored.

@theht said:

To me, that seems like a well-meaning but very bad idea. The "calm down, guys" group needs to exist to help keep both sides in check. They serve as a reminder that, all things considered, this is a minor problem at best. We're not talking about stopping the treatment of women as property, rape, genital mutilation, giving women the right to vote, allowing women to join the work force, etc. We're talking about wanting more realistic representations of women in video games. Both sides need to keep that in mind. Telling people they should get out of the discussion unless they are passionate about it will just amplify the hostility to disproportionate levels. The Internet already does that enough on its own.

In my opinion, the only real way to solve this problem is for more women to make games. It's nice to have men supporting their cause, but "write what you know" is a guideline for a reason. Guys are never going to have a complete understanding of what it's like to be a woman, no matter how "enlightened" we are... and vice versa. If a woman who plays games thinks this is a serious issue, I sincerely hope she steps up to the plate and leads by example. I'm not saying she has to jump into the deep end and learn how to code engines from scratch, though that would be cool too. Maybe just team up with someone looking for a writer or concept artist, at first.

It's not a small problem by any means. It's indicative of a deep rooted societal problem. Obviously I can't change the world. What I can change, or attempt to change, is the industry I've been involved in for years, and the industry I hope to continue to be involved with in the future.

Where do you live? I've only a couple times in my life seen a man disrespect a woman. I know it happens, but to say even a portion of that is because peoples dumb comments in online games and online sites seems ignorant to me. Everyone calls everyone heinous crap online, it's one of the reasons why I don't play online games.

No, it's not a bummer, it's a natural outcome of the habits and differences of men vs women. Over time, I've tried to get some of my friends that are women to play games. I've been successful in getting them addicted to games like Dance Central and Rock Band but for anything else, I gave up. I've been attempting to get my wife into games for quite a while now, she thinks they're stupid.

I live in Orlando but, uh, bruh - this happens everywhere. Like, all over the world. To all women. Constantly.

And street harassment isn't because of online harassment, but both are symptoms of an underlying problem where women are traditionally devalued as people.

Of course it happens, I've just rarely heard it happen. You made it sound like it's constant which is why I asked where you live.