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#1 Edited by Raven10 (1706 posts) -

I just read this article on IGN. As I was reading this article I slowly started questioning how this could possibly have been posted. The author uses Lord of the Rings as his key example and yet doesn't seem to know or understand the world of Middle Earth. He claims that Gandalf and the other wizards could not use magic in the current sense of shooting lightning and fireballs and such. But this isn't true whatsoever.

Now bare with me because this is hardcore Tolkien lore. The Wizards of Middle Earth were not wizards in the traditional sense. They were Maiar, essentially spirits who served Ainur, who are essentially the Gods of Middle Earth. (I know that is not entirely true random Tolkien super fan who reads this, but for the purposes of this post it is good enough). Of the Ainur the most powerful was Melkor whose pride turned him evil. He corrpupted Middle Earth and the souls of men, and created the Orcs from the twisted remains of the Elves, who were the first mortals of Middle Earth. Anyways, Melkor was eventually defeated and sent into the Void where he is to remain until The Final Battle (Which Tolkien never got around to writing). Like all other Ainur he had a Maiar and his was Suaron, who most people know as the villain of Lord of the Rings. After the defeat of Melkor, the Ainur returned to their version of Heaven. But Suaron rose to fight the Elves and other good beings of Earth. To combat this the Ainur sent down The Council of Istar, five Maiar who would become known as Wizards. There are three specifically shown in the books and movies, Saruman The White, Gandalf The Grey, and the Brown Wizard whose name I'm not going to attempt to spell. The other two were the Blue Wizards who leave for The East as soon as they arrive and are never mentioned again. Anyways, and here is the key thing, the Wizards are forbidden from using their powers offensively and are told they must find another way to defeat Suaron. The wizards themselves, especially Gandalf in his White form, are arguably nearly as powerful as Suaron and can certainly perform any sort of magic they want. Saruman does this to create his mutated Orc army and is punished for this as his spirit is not allowed to return to Heaven after his earthly form is destroyed. So the battle in the movies could in fact happen. And according to the books, Gandalf did use magic when fighting the Balrog as it is a twisted Maiar itself and a one time servent of Melkor.

So TLDR - The wizards can use offensive magic in Lord of the Rings but are banned from doing so by the Gods. Hence the key example in this guy's argument is based on a false belief which makes me question if IGN ever takes the effort to fact check its articles. And how the Hell does a site like IGN not have anyone who could have told the author this? I admit I had to look up some of the names to write this post but I knew the history behind the Wizards as any true Tolkien fan should. Maybe if he did more than read the core four novels he would realize how stupid he sounds.

EDIT - To make this clearer since I obviously didn't write it well the first time around (I hadn't slept in like 48+ hours when I wrote this so sorry) what I was trying to say was that the author's argument that D&D and gaming in general has changed the core fundamentals of magic is silly. Many books prior to D&D showed wizards using magic in a physical, offensive manner. This wasn't some new innovation for gaming. The addition of mana or spell points was added to game-ify the subject, but the concept of magic wasn't changed because of this, and many games since that point have removed this feature. Basically, I was mostly upset that IGN would consider this a professional quality article when it was wildly untrue and poorly researched in many ways. I wasn't attempting to sound all high and mighty for knowing more about LOTR than someone else. I was more upset that he was trying to use LOTR as an example when he didn't understand the books. Being LOTR had nothing to do with it. Point is that his examples weren't well researched, whatever form they took, and that isn't something that a professional quality site like IGN should allow.

#2 Edited by Raven10 (1706 posts) -

PS. Never try to out nerd The Raven.

#3 Posted by Flacracker (1581 posts) -

I'm a wizard.

#4 Posted by g6065 (270 posts) -

I'm a wizard.

and this thread is.....probably taking that article a little too seriously.

#5 Edited by Cretaceous_Bob (501 posts) -

Nowhere in the article does the writer state that Gandalf or Saruman can't use offensive magic, only that they don't, which is 100% accurate.

I don't know why he's required to read more than "the core four novels", yet you can't be bothered to properly read one article.

#6 Posted by superpow (226 posts) -

I believe it is spelled "Sauron".

#7 Posted by DeeGee (2113 posts) -

I hate everything about this post. The rage, the indignation, the sense that you are somehow better than everyone else because you are capable of reciting a bunch of background information. I think the trend of "eurgh, they're not REAL fans, they didn't even listen to the first album, I'm a real fan" is something that we really need to get past as a society.

but hey, let's examine what you said for a moment.

"The wizards can use offensive magic in Lord of the Rings but are banned from doing so by the Gods."

So they can't. You wrote this entire long post about why the guy is wrong and then nullify the whole thing. The whole thing is one big "WELL, TECHNICALLY" but it all boils down to the fact that they can't use offensive magic because they are banned. So they can't. Exactly what the guy said, that they can't do it. They're not allowed. They can't.

#8 Edited by BisonHero (6054 posts) -

Nope, IGN never fact checks. That must be it, based on one article you didn't like.

/thread

#9 Posted by CreepingDeath0 (176 posts) -

The Maiar served the Valar, both of which would be classified as Ainur. The Valar would be akin to gods, with the Maiar more angel rank. BAM! Outnerded! :P Fun fact for those less familiar with the Silmarilion material - the Balrog that Gandalf fights in Moria was also a Maiar, just twisted by Melkor. They could've been friends once upon a time :P

Well thats my nerdiness quota filled for the day. Now a bit more on topic, it's IGN. They're up their with kotaku in their tabloid like "news". Posting rumours as news and posts with zero fact checking are how they get page views.

#10 Posted by Twisted (159 posts) -

I was expecting this to be far less specific.

Also if you really want to say 'Does IGN EVER fact check?' and criticise the entire site's ability, then you might want to have more evidence than one tiny, insignificant detail from one article.

#11 Posted by Yummylee (21208 posts) -

Oof, I bet this thread didn't quite pan out how you hoped :P

#12 Posted by Bell_End (1208 posts) -

jesus christ!

did IGN really make such an error. i hope people are sacked and ashamed over this!

#14 Posted by Video_Game_King (35835 posts) -

@raven10 said:

PS. Never try to out nerd The Raven.

You forget that there are multiple categories of nerd. When it comes to obscure sequels to even more obscure games, I could whoop your ass.

#15 Edited by MildMolasses (3211 posts) -

I assumed this thread was going to be related to actual, real-world information and poor researching.

Nerd rage strikes again

Considering that I just read this article about reckless media, this thread is especially stupid

#16 Posted by Otleaz (45 posts) -

If you had as much common sense as you did Lotr knowledge, you might have realized that you should never bother even reading IGN, or Kotaku for that matter. You can't take them seriously at all, when they say "this game is good" they are probably saying "hamburger"

#17 Posted by Scampbell (486 posts) -

@raven10 said: "...and the Brown Wizard whose name I'm not going to attempt to spell."

Radagast, also Tom Bombadil rocks!

#18 Posted by Ramone (2954 posts) -

You done fucked up.

#19 Posted by kpaadet (409 posts) -

You cant spell "fact checking" without IGN. Also the GB forums probably isnt the best place to discuss fact checking, considering how much false infomation they spew during various QLs/bombcasts/live streams, I still love them though.

#20 Posted by JasonR86 (9587 posts) -

No, they never, ever fact check.

#21 Edited by Subjugation (4716 posts) -

Well this is embarrassing. For you I mean, not them.

#22 Posted by Abendlaender (2734 posts) -

I'm a wizard.

What is your opinion on this thread? How does it look to you?

Also I stopped reading at Maiar, not because "YOU SO NERDY LULZ" but because I knew that I wouldn't be able to understand anything after that.

#23 Posted by Oscar__Explosion (2181 posts) -

I hear fact checking ruins things

#24 Edited by Evilsbane (4519 posts) -

I learned something from your post ill give you that but yea your entire point..kinda backfired I was waiting for you to tell me where he was wrong and...yea...

#25 Posted by altairre (1113 posts) -

@raven10 said:

PS. Never try to out nerd The Raven.

You forget that there are multiple categories of nerd. When it comes to obscure sequels to even more obscure games, I could whoop your ass.

Betting all my money on Video_Game_King. Let's go!

#26 Posted by Confirm4Crit (138 posts) -
#27 Edited by JazGalaxy (1576 posts) -

@deegee said:

I hate everything about this post. The rage, the indignation, the sense that you are somehow better than everyone else because you are capable of reciting a bunch of background information. I think the trend of "eurgh, they're not REAL fans, they didn't even listen to the first album, I'm a real fan" is something that we really need to get past as a society.

but hey, let's examine what you said for a moment.

"The wizards can use offensive magic in Lord of the Rings but are banned from doing so by the Gods."

So they can't. You wrote this entire long post about why the guy is wrong and then nullify the whole thing. The whole thing is one big "WELL, TECHNICALLY" but it all boils down to the fact that they can't use offensive magic because they are banned. So they can't. Exactly what the guy said, that they can't do it. They're not allowed. They can't.

I can't agree with what you're saying here, as much as I might like to.

The OPs orginal point was commenting on the article. He wasn't just being technical for the sake of being technical.

The Article's whole point was that the concept of magic has been transformed by things like D&D and Videogames into something that it didn't used to be. The author is saying that magic used to be a transformative and not just a medieval gun, as it has become.

SO it is here that this becomes a sticking point: The author of the article is saying that Gandalf's magic never becomes more than just using his staff as a lamp. The OP is saying that the wizards are specifically banned from using offensive magic. That is to say, they COULD. They just don't. For the books to even say they COULD goes against the author of the article's point that magic used to only be broad transformative content. But his point still stands that magic now is different than it used to be. IT is true that magic in RPG's is frequently about hurling fireballs.

The underlying truth the matter is that everyone having this conversation is a loser and we all need to do better at life.

#28 Posted by Blu3V3nom07 (4138 posts) -

I was hoping 'Mitch Dyer' wrote the article. Because then I would of been like, "Well of course that forgetful motherfucker did! They get paid for reviews, you know?" But then I clicked and I saw that it wasn't.. And I realize that this is turning slowly turning into a type of D&D conversation. *Gets up. Starts walking backwards.* And I'm just not that sure *Voice is getting faint* this conversation is for me. *Opens door, closes it.* I mean I like D&D and all, its just that I would ....... .... And then .. wild Yonkey-Dong shows up..

Online
#29 Posted by Andorski (5173 posts) -

Had no idea Stephen Colbert had a Giant Bomb account.

#30 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

@andorski said:

Had no idea Stephen Colbert had a Giant Bomb account.

HA!

#31 Posted by AiurFlux (901 posts) -

Any time there's a chance to shit on IGN I'm all for it. So yeah. FUCK THEM! *grabs pitchfork and joins mob*

#32 Posted by alwaysbebombing (1511 posts) -

@kpaadet said:

You cant spell "fact checking" without IGN. Also the GB forums probably isnt the best place to discuss fact checking, considering how much false infomation they spew during various QLs/bombcasts/live streams, I still love them though.

Their made up stuff always makes me giggle.

#33 Edited by jsnyder82 (725 posts) -

I don't like to throw the word 'loser' around all that often. I am willing to make an exception in this case.

#34 Edited by TheHT (10810 posts) -

Not a big deal. I always do enjoy reading about the Ainur though, so thanks for that.

#35 Posted by Brackynews (4039 posts) -

@superpow said:

I believe it is spelled "Sauron".

Suaron is an acceptable mistake because some Elven runes were translated by dyslexic scholars.

It is however, "bear with me". Though it's perhaps appropriate to imagine that the OP was written in a blinding hot naked rage.

#36 Posted by TheManWithNoPlan (5138 posts) -

lol

#37 Posted by subyman (587 posts) -
@deegee said:

I hate everything about this post. The rage, the indignation, the sense that you are somehow better than everyone else because you are capable of reciting a bunch of background information. I think the trend of "eurgh, they're not REAL fans, they didn't even listen to the first album, I'm a real fan" is something that we really need to get past as a society.

but hey, let's examine what you said for a moment.

"The wizards can use offensive magic in Lord of the Rings but are banned from doing so by the Gods."

So they can't. You wrote this entire long post about why the guy is wrong and then nullify the whole thing. The whole thing is one big "WELL, TECHNICALLY" but it all boils down to the fact that they can't use offensive magic because they are banned. So they can't. Exactly what the guy said, that they can't do it. They're not allowed. They can't.

Thank you. I totally agree. I was expecting some yellow journalism here, not some strange LOTR lore rant. What's funny is that the OP's title is more yellow than the article he claims is terribly written.

#38 Edited by Hunkulese (2628 posts) -

@raven10: I'm a little confused as to what you're rambling about. He says they didn't fight because it wouldn't have made sense and then you write a whole lot of nonsense backing up his point. What exactly are you mad about?

#39 Posted by LordAndrew (14419 posts) -

I couldn't finish reading your TLDR. Next time make it shorter, or put your time into something more productive like Morgoth/Sauron fanfiction.

#40 Posted by TooWalrus (13130 posts) -

I don't particularly care about IGN, but thanks for the lecture in Tolkien lore.

#41 Posted by EchoEcho (813 posts) -
@raven10 said:

PS. Never try to out nerd The Raven.

I am trying so hard to resist posting an essay nitpicking the inconsistencies and errors in your rant. Given the response to your rant, I have a feeling people would reel in disgust at an even longer one.

#42 Posted by toots (428 posts) -

Keep on fighting the good fight, Raven. Also, it's 'bear with me' as in 'grin and bear it', or whatevs

#43 Posted by MideonNViscera (2257 posts) -

Nope, their policy is no fact checking. Good thing you asked on this forum, where you were certain to get an answer. Us GiantBombers know everything about IGN article creation.

#44 Posted by Raven10 (1706 posts) -

@cretaceous_bob: @evilsbane: @subyman: @hunkulese:

@deegee said:

I hate everything about this post. The rage, the indignation, the sense that you are somehow better than everyone else because you are capable of reciting a bunch of background information. I think the trend of "eurgh, they're not REAL fans, they didn't even listen to the first album, I'm a real fan" is something that we really need to get past as a society.

but hey, let's examine what you said for a moment.

"The wizards can use offensive magic in Lord of the Rings but are banned from doing so by the Gods."

So they can't. You wrote this entire long post about why the guy is wrong and then nullify the whole thing. The whole thing is one big "WELL, TECHNICALLY" but it all boils down to the fact that they can't use offensive magic because they are banned. So they can't. Exactly what the guy said, that they can't do it. They're not allowed. They can't.

Okay, sorry guys. I realize my point wasn't very clear. Let me try and explain in a better way. The author was saying that the concept of magic being used in a physical, offensive manner (fireballs and the like) was a concept that was largely invented by D&D to create a Wizard character that was balanced with other characters. Mana, or spell points and so forth were also invented as a way to limit magical power. (This much is true). My point was that wizards could and did use magic in that manner before D&D and the entire concept that gaming has changed magic in some core manner is silly. Yes the idea of "mana points" or what have you is an addition to gaming but not every game uses spell points of some sort and the concept of magic in society hasn't changed because some games do. There are other examples beyond Lord of the Rings of magic being used in this way prior to D&D but his example was Lord of the Rings and his example was wrong.

And the reason he didn't realize his example was wrong was because he only had a basic understanding of the way Middle Earth worked. Hence if he had done more research he would have realized he was using a poor example and probably wouldn't have written the article. That was the point. Specifically to deegee, I wasn't angry because he had gotten the lore of LOTR wrong. I really could care less. What I was upset about was that he was paid for this article that wasn't true and was poorly written. I had to look up a bunch of the names and such to write this post. But the fact is that I did look up the info. I don't know much more about Lord of the Rings than the majority of fans, I just take the time to look up stuff that I don't know before I write about it. That is all I am saying he didn't do. There is a massive LOTR Wiki that can give you all of the info you could possibly need on Middle Earth at the touch of a fingertip. Again, my issue wasn't that he was wrong in and of itself, but that he used this misinformation to write an article that he was paid for and which was read by thousands of people.

#45 Posted by Raven10 (1706 posts) -

@video_game_king: I would probably bet against myself in such a duel but, hey, why not. I'll give it a go. How would you like to do it? I was going to just name a game and have you name the sequel but I feel like half the time the sequel is just going to be the name of the first game with the number 2 after it. And also I feel like we would just try to name games like Xenosaga with lengthy foreign subtitles that neither of us could probably write correctly. How about I name a game and you tell me some facts about it such as, Publisher (In the country of origin, so, for example, Rockstar for GTA not Capcom which published it in Japan), Developer, Platform(s), and description of the game including genre, story (if there is one), and a basic description of gameplay. Also, I would say games released in the US only simply because games might have numerous names throughout the world and just because we might not know the name of a game in one part of the world doesn't mean we don't know of the game at all. So by using only US titles we can assure we don't run into the type of issue where, for example, I name Dark Chronicles instead of using the US name of Dark Cloud 2. Agreed?

#46 Posted by Video_Game_King (35835 posts) -

@raven10:

I would make two amendments to that:

  1. A general description of the game in question would do. I can tell you quite a bit about Panzer Bandit (this cool Japan-only dual-plane beat-em-up where I think you could choose the order of the levels) without saying a thing about the developers or publishers.
  2. No-holds barred all regions. My expertise is in things like "which version of Shin Megami Tensei wasn't published by Atlus" (the Sega CD version, if I recall correctly).
#47 Posted by Dagbiker (6939 posts) -

@raven10 said:

I just read this article on IGN. As I was reading this article I slowly started questioning how this could possibly have been posted. The author uses Lord of the Rings as his key example and yet doesn't seem to know or understand the world of Middle Earth. He claims that Gandalf and the other wizards could not use magic in the current sense of shooting lightning and fireballs and such. But this isn't true whatsoever.

Now bare with me because this is hardcore Tolkien lore. The Wizards of Middle Earth were not wizards in the traditional sense. They were Maiar, essentially spirits who served Ainur, who are essentially the Gods of Middle Earth. (I know that is not entirely true random Tolkien super fan who reads this, but for the purposes of this post it is good enough). Of the Ainur the most powerful was Melkor whose pride turned him evil. He corrpupted Middle Earth and the souls of men, and created the Orcs from the twisted remains of the Elves, who were the first mortals of Middle Earth. Anyways, Melkor was eventually defeated and sent into the Void where he is to remain until The Final Battle (Which Tolkien never got around to writing). Like all other Ainur he had a Maiar and his was Suaron, who most people know as the villain of Lord of the Rings. After the defeat of Melkor, the Ainur returned to their version of Heaven. But Suaron rose to fight the Elves and other good beings of Earth. To combat this the Ainur sent down The Council of Istar, five Maiar who would become known as Wizards. There are three specifically shown in the books and movies, Saruman The White, Gandalf The Grey, and the Brown Wizard whose name I'm not going to attempt to spell. The other two were the Blue Wizards who leave for The East as soon as they arrive and are never mentioned again. Anyways, and here is the key thing, the Wizards are forbidden from using their powers offensively and are told they must find another way to defeat Suaron. The wizards themselves, especially Gandalf in his White form, are arguably nearly as powerful as Suaron and can certainly perform any sort of magic they want. Saruman does this to create his mutated Orc army and is punished for this as his spirit is not allowed to return to Heaven after his earthly form is destroyed. So the battle in the movies could in fact happen. And according to the books, Gandalf did use magic when fighting the Balrog as it is a twisted Maiar itself and a one time servent of Melkor.

So TLDR - The wizards can use offensive magic in Lord of the Rings but are banned from doing so by the Gods. Hence the key example in this guy's argument is based on a false belief which makes me question if IGN ever takes the effort to fact check its articles. And how the Hell does a site like IGN not have anyone who could have told the author this? I admit I had to look up some of the names to write this post but I knew the history behind the Wizards as any true Tolkien fan should. Maybe if he did more than read the core four novels he would realize how stupid he sounds.

EDIT - To make this clearer since I obviously didn't write it well the first time around (I hadn't slept in like 48+ hours when I wrote this so sorry) what I was trying to say was that the author's argument that D&D and gaming in general has changed the core fundamentals of magic is silly. Many books prior to D&D showed wizards using magic in a physical, offensive manner. This wasn't some new innovation for gaming. The addition of mana or spell points was added to game-ify the subject, but the concept of magic wasn't changed because of this, and many games since that point have removed this feature. Basically, I was mostly upset that IGN would consider this a professional quality article when it was wildly untrue and poorly researched in many ways. I wasn't attempting to sound all high and mighty for knowing more about LOTR than someone else. I was more upset that he was trying to use LOTR as an example when he didn't understand the books. Being LOTR had nothing to do with it. Point is that his examples weren't well researched, whatever form they took, and that isn't something that a professional quality site like IGN should allow.

While he did get that fact wrong. His artical was more of a thought piece, and not really taking a stance. And more talking about the tone of the eras. Such that, in 1970 magic's mystery was its power. But gaming has turned magic into power. But also points out that in certain aspects the same concept is being use.

#48 Posted by ImpendingFoil (555 posts) -

#49 Posted by Turambar (6641 posts) -

@andorski said:

Had no idea Stephen Colbert had a Giant Bomb account.

HA!

Stephen Colbert would have written the post in Sindarin.

#50 Edited by Lexus2jz (92 posts) -

Seriously??? Is this serious? Dude there is not one single news outlet that will be 100% accurate all the time. Yes even Giant Bomb has made mistakes. Also, I would like to point out that YOU will never be 100% accurate all the time. I suggest you stop spending all your time reading LOTR and learn how the world works, you will get much farther in life if you do.