#1 Posted by sido (10 posts) -

I apologize for my poor English in this post but I’m uneducated. I’m trying my best to talk about something that has been bothering me for some time.

After all the fallout from the GTA V reviews this week is it not about time people laid their cards on the table and had a real discussion about they way women are viewed/treated in games and the industry.

This is my view from the last year.

I’ve noticed that in the USA this year most prominent online personalities have taken a hard stance on their views on women in the industry and all are following the political correctness that we had in the UK in late 90’s.

Here it went too far we couldn’t even sing certain nursery rhythms.

I have a fantastic wife and 2 teenage daughters, they like rom-coms I like killing things in games, I wouldn’t review their movies and they don’t review my games and as such we live a happy life.

My wife earns more money than me she works less hours and thats great for our family life.

My point is that are people making a bigger deal of this and just jumping on the bandwagon ?

Am I a dinosaur like Michael (I’m his age) ?

I still hold open doors for women. Stand when they join/leave at a dinner table. Offer seats on public transport (I can relate to this guy)

Is their a bigger problem that I can’t see.

What do you think ?

#3 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@sido said:

I apologize for my poor English in this post but I’m uneducated. I’m trying my best to talk about something that has been bothering me for some time.

After all the fallout from the GTA V reviews this week is it not about time people laid their cards on the table and had a real discussion about they way women are viewed/treated in games and the industry.

This is my view from the last year.

I’ve noticed that in the USA this year most prominent online personalities have taken a hard stance on their views on women in the industry and all are following the political correctness that we had in the UK in late 90’s.

Here it went too far we couldn’t even sing certain nursery rhythms.

I have a fantastic wife and 2 teenage daughters, they like rom-coms I like killing things in games, I wouldn’t review their movies and they don’t review my games and as such we live a happy life.

My wife earns more money than me she works less hours and thats great for our family life.

My point is that are people making a bigger deal of this and just jumping on the bandwagon ?

Am I a dinosaur like Michael (I’m his age) ?

I still hold open doors for women. Stand when they join/leave at a dinner table. Offer seats on public transport (I can relate to this guy)

Is their a bigger problem that I can’t see.

What do you think ?

It always depends on who is looking at you. Some feminists find it offensive and will call you a misogynistic sexist you you do chivalry like holding a door open , pay for dinner offer seats etc. For me it is kind of my upbringing to respect people I care for. In this time and age and depending where you live (first world countries) I believe that we are equal but different and there is nothing wrong with that.

#4 Posted by Yadilie (380 posts) -

So, you don't hold doors for men? Don't stand up when men join and leave the dinner table? Don't offer seats to men who have handicaps or are old? Why are you thinking in genders? Think with overall kindness.

#5 Edited by sido (10 posts) -

@yadilie said:

So, you don't hold doors for men? Don't stand up when men join and leave the dinner table? Don't offer seats to men who have handicaps or are old? Why are you thinking in genders? Think with overall kindness.

Your right. I do hold doors open for other men, offer seats to anyone who looks handicap or old (even tho I have a damaged spine myself). This is my point its a respect thing. I have respect for all my fellow humans which might be why I don't see a problem.

#6 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@yadilie said:

So, you don't hold doors for men? Don't stand up when men join and leave the dinner table? Don't offer seats to men who have handicaps or are old? Why are you thinking in genders? Think with overall kindness.

If you ask me I do it mostly for people I care about. I let elder people always walk first in things like in the bus for example. I do also for elder men because I was taught to respect people and be kind to them. But again I see no harm here I will never think that I do it because I think women are weak and needed to be pitied or whatever I do it because I think it is the right thing to do. But yes I do it also for certain men. It always depends on how they look if I have the feeling they are nice or in a hurry I will do the same.

Whats interesting here is that women normally accept the offer without a second thought while men try to do the same and let me instead pass.

#7 Posted by martyarf (250 posts) -
#8 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -
#9 Posted by falserelic (5436 posts) -

I feel like the feminism debate in general is getting worse everyday.

#10 Posted by martyarf (250 posts) -
#11 Posted by Hailinel (24742 posts) -

Here we go again.

Online
#12 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@martyarf said:

@darji said:

This text is absolute terrible. I rather support the quality of Everyone Thank you very much.

Are you for real? Or is this a performance piece? If you've got a criticism of that wiki, please post it.

I have a lot of criticism. For example: where does it say that women have more legal rights? Where does it say that women have more rights in terms or working laws? Where does it stand that women have a better chance of higher education and so on. This whole site alone from this text alone is just propaganda to victimize women and to show how clearly women are still being oppressed by these evil evil men.

And then of course you have a lot of definitions to somehow make everyone who does not agree with feminism a bad person. Like a strawmen feminist for example. I am sorry but these kind of feminists are the reason why people do not take feminism seriously anymore and many women and former feminists who actually did something back the with the women movement stay away from this ideology and rather became egalitarians

#13 Posted by Kaiserreich (699 posts) -

Suonds like you need to check your privilege CIS-scum >:(

#14 Edited by damehasclass (5 posts) -

If you want to truly learn about feminism, there are lots of websites and forums that aren't this one. I would recommend just doing some simple Google searches of the terms you are curious about, and reading various sources. You can have a more educated opinion about it at that point, whatever opinion that may be. There have been lots of articles lately by women about their experiences in the gaming industry as well.

#15 Posted by Nekroskop (2786 posts) -

You only see this kind of 'Video games are misogynistic' in America and England(America's buddy). No where else do people give a FUCK about some whiny attention seeking shitbags who complain about video games. And neither should any of you.

#16 Posted by TheSouthernDandy (3867 posts) -

Here's where I am on the issue. I think video games and the culture surrounding it have a problem with how women are portrayed and treated. These conversations need to happen and it's good that people are looking at things with a more critical eye. That had to happen or nothing's going to change. That said, I'm getting a little tired of people getting offended over absolutely everything. Everything offends somebody and they're gonna make sure you hear about it. Like the whole Spelunky business. It's frustrating and tiresome. I don't know where the balance is.

#17 Posted by martyarf (250 posts) -

@darji said:

@martyarf said:

@darji said:

This text is absolute terrible. I rather support the quality of Everyone Thank you very much.

Are you for real? Or is this a performance piece? If you've got a criticism of that wiki, please post it.

I have a lot of criticism. For example: where does it say that women have more legal rights? Where does it say that women have more rights in terms or working laws? Where does it stand that women have a better chance of higher education and so on. This whole site alone from this text alone is just propaganda to victimize women and to show how clearly women are still being oppressed by these evil evil men.

And then of course you have a lot of definitions to somehow make everyone who does not agree with feminism a bad person. Like a strawmen feminist for example. I am sorry but these kind of feminists are the reason why people do not take feminism seriously anymore and many women and former feminists who actually did something back the with the women movement stay away from this ideology and rather became egalitarians

More legal rights? In what country? Could you be more specific? If you're going to talk about something like custody rights - consider that this in itself relies on a stereotype of women as natural caregivers. Feminism, as a quest for gender parity, want women and men to be seen as equally capable parents, and not to rely on silly stereotypes to dictate these important things.

Advances in some areas - higher education in the West, for example - do not negate the overwhelming biases against women in the aggregate - the global wage disparity, property ownership, parliamentary representation, violence against women, the half a million women who die every year in childbirth. Women make up 70% of the world's poor.

It seems odd that you would want to blame feminists for not being taken seriously "anymore". Do you know what newspapers printed about the suffragettes? Have you not heard the jokes that are still made, today, about Helen Keller? Feminists have never been taken seriously.

I was going to go to the effort of comparing these to reddit memes but... that's an exercise for the reader.

Feminism is still necessary, and it isn't what you have imagined it to be. I would suggest bell hooks - feminism is for everybody, which is available on PDF here: http://excoradfeminisms.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/bell_hooks-feminism_is_for_everybody.pdf

#18 Posted by DonutFever (3551 posts) -

@thesoutherndandy said:

Here's where I am on the issue. I think video games and the culture surrounding it have a problem with how women are portrayed and treated. These conversations need to happen and it's good that people are looking at things with a more critical eye. That had to happen or nothing's going to change. That said, I'm getting a little tired of people getting offended over absolutely everything. Everything offends somebody and they're gonna make sure you hear about it. Like the whole Spelunky business. It's frustrating and tiresome. I don't know where the balance is.

I was going to post the same thing.

#19 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@martyarf: I do not want to waste my time so all I am gonna do is posting this.

Either you watch it or not I really do not care.

@thesoutherndandy totally agree.

#20 Edited by TheManWithNoPlan (5480 posts) -

There are definitely negative aspects in the gaming industry regarding the role of females, or gender in general, but it's getting a little ridiculous with the volume of complaints being raised over every game coming out. I don't really know what the end game here is. Will a magical industry wide conversation appear and bring all the problems to a close? I don't know. It's pretty simple to understand what the problem is on a very basic level, but the solution isn't all.

The cycle seems to be "Game comes out - negative backlash - Random internet personality/critic says something inflammatory - Internet shit storm". Rinse repeat. It's all really tiresome. I completely agree we need to have open conversations about these issues within the industry, but it needs to be for a purpose. When someone rocks the boat you're going to see ripples echoing off the water. People attacking others for various statements and then turning everything into an all out war gets us nowhere. Have we really seen any positive changes made based on the conversation thus far? Something needs to change with the inflection most people carry on the internet.

I really think the problem lies within the capabilities of most people partaking in this conversation. The actual video games themselves are what perpetuate these conversations of gender roles. Most of us talking about these subjects don't have the power to make a tangible change in the games being developed. As a whole, we can try and create an atmosphere where developers will be influenced to change the games they make, but that's never going to happen if the atmosphere we create is a hateful and negative one. I simply implore us all to make a small difference on a singular level. You can do that by being positive to your fellow man and woman.

#21 Edited by martyarf (250 posts) -

@darji said:

@martyarf: I do not want to waste my time so all I am gonna do is posting this.

Either you watch it or not I really do not care.

@thesoutherndandy totally agree.

I'm glad I took the time to reply to you. Really paid off.

#22 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@martyarf: What does this mean? She basically calls every feminism out you "admiring?"

#23 Posted by davidwitten22 (1708 posts) -

Darji's definition of of a conversation is him being right about everything and anyone who disagrees being a sex-negative feminist. Trying to use logic and reasoning on him is like trying to explain a painting to a dog.

#24 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

Darji's definition of of a conversation is him being right about everything and anyone who disagrees being a sex-negative feminist. Trying to use logic and reasoning on him is like trying to explain a painting to a dog.

I can have nice discussions with some people here. But if you try to come up with stuff like the clothes of Quiet from MGSV are sexist than I can not do anything about it. I just can not take you serious and I am sorry for that.

Look I love great characters. I play games because of the story and mostly nothing else. At least non indy games and I do not mind playing as a female character and I would love to have better writing for video game characters in general but to archive this you can not lead a shitstorm over everything. If we have a really bad and terrible male character it is stupid and dumb if we have a slightly bad female character it is sexist. There are not many great male characters either and I really want to change that. I want great writing great characters no matter what race, gender or sexuality.

As for feminism in general I think it is outdated and I often explained why I think like that if you have arguments against that feel free to tell me. But please dont bother with sites like that one because that is only strengthen my opinion and point.

Also yes: If you think that stuff like prostitution, skimpy clothing etc is a bad representation for women and sexist than you are indeed a sex negative feminist (if you are a feminist that is) I did not make or defined that definition^^

#25 Edited by SathingtonWaltz (2053 posts) -

@davidwitten22 said:

Darji's definition of of a conversation is him being right about everything and anyone who disagrees being a sex-negative feminist. Trying to use logic and reasoning on him is like trying to explain a painting to a dog.

Nice ad hominem.

#26 Posted by davidwitten22 (1708 posts) -

@davidwitten22 said:

Darji's definition of of a conversation is him being right about everything and anyone who disagrees being a sex-negative feminist. Trying to use logic and reasoning on him is like trying to explain a painting to a dog.

Nice ad hominem.

I wasn't actually making an argument, just stating that Darji is a complete moron.

#27 Edited by SathingtonWaltz (2053 posts) -