#101 Posted by Sherlock_Pwnz (49 posts) -

Not one to ever usually comment on articles or the forums...

Just wanted to support you Patrick. I'm glad that you're taking the issue and your job seriously.

Thanks.

#102 Posted by Sil3n7 (1176 posts) -

@Veektarius said:

I don't see how this could spawn a more productive discussion than the first one, especially since it takes a more accusatory tone.

+1

#103 Posted by Crispy (208 posts) -

Articles like this begin to justify the need for an Editorial category on the site -- whereas this story is categorized as News. That's not to say that I disagree with any of the sentiment put forth, but the article obviously sticks out from normal news content. While it could be argued that such visibility is a positive, I think a section devoted solely towards editorial would ignite and encourage more elaborate discussions akin to this one.

#104 Edited by churrific (475 posts) -

@trolipo3 said:

@churrific said:

I know that this is an op-ed, or at least reads like one, but I'll just say I found it distasteful for Patrick to be calling out a single person like that and using his comment to encompass a whole slew of conversations that he read only a third of.

a person posted his comment out there for everyone

deal with it

I didn't say the comment itself was good. Seems petty to me to call someone out like that in front of the whole community. It's like it's grade school or something.

#105 Posted by iAmJohn (6108 posts) -

@BlastProcessing said:

@Napalm said:

@BlastProcessing said:

@Napalm said:

is a piece of shit of a human being. Throw out a ban if you feel necessary mods, but it's fucking true.

You sound like an even bigger scum. The dude just voiced his thoughts on the situation. If I am to disagree with this movement (which I do), am I a piece of shit of a human being as well? Your gestapo-esque attitude is more worthy of the banhammer.

"It's just a video game," is a terrible fucking blanket excuse to throw out there when you disagree with something with no real reasoning or sound advice behind it. So yes, if you agree with his exact sentiments, then consider yourself in that camp.

Problems in our industry are a real issue. It's like nobody wants to talk about actual issues about what is happening. People just want to say, "it's just all videogame fun-time, guise! No reason to get all angry and upset!"

Okay, good to know you consider people a terrible excuse for human beings cause they wanna play the games they spent $60 for, and not caring about the programmer who overheard a higher up remark that she has "nice assets".

People just want the product they paid for, why care about what the women who were in the development team may or may not have went through, when the games you spent a year or two waiting is finally in your console and ready to play? It's the same for many things. Do people who purchase clothing care about the children in foreign countries that are making the very shirts they are wearing? Heck no, they care about how they look in it. Although unlike the gaming feminist march going on, the children nitting Ed Hardy shirts in Panama is actually a fucked up issue.

Translation: I'm a person of privilege who will never have to deal with this so why the fuck should I have to hear about it? It doesn't affect me so it's not my problem; let someone else care.

#106 Posted by anarchyzombie9 (615 posts) -

@EnduranceFun: hey, don't put sexist in quotes first of all because don't deny that sexism is prevalent as hell in the gaming industry/community. and honestly, I'd rather Patrick post something of substance that resembles actual journalism and has a purpose than see some article about the hottest new CoD DLC. But, maybe that's just me. Different strokes for different folks.

#107 Posted by kahjah (25 posts) -

@SamFo: I had a conversation with a friend of mine about this issue that branched into one about white privilege, we are both black and he is a couple of years younger than I am (I'm 34). Once I explained the concept he rebuffed by saying "Why are you talking about this? He didn't want to even acknowledge that the possibility of these things even existing.

I believe that the people mad a Patrick are just like my friend wearing huge blinders about the world around them who are incapable of thinking that other people come up against these issues daily.

It's extremely sad.

#108 Posted by gelatinabomination (184 posts) -

@DrKunze: PLEASE don't bring the "hardcore" vs "casual" argument in here. It's heated enough as is.

And bravo for Patrick for keeping the discussion going. Some might argue on how this follow-up article was needed, but I am fascinated to see how this whole industry discussion turns out.

#109 Posted by EnduranceFun (1114 posts) -

@anarchyzombie9: Sexism can be argued to be 'prevalent' everywhere. This is not unique to the gaming industry and Patrick fails to do any more than beat a dead horse.

#110 Edited by cuxun (55 posts) -

Definitely agree with Patrick. Sexism is a problem, We might not be able to fix it. but we can raise awareness.

AmericanNinja was giving his opinion, Trolling for sure, but giving opinion none the less. My problem with his comment was not the indifference, but that is just an easy way to make other problems seem bigger.

I was born and raised in a third world country, and yes it's fucked up there. That doesn't mean Sexism is less of an issue, and it happens everywhere.

#111 Posted by hurtfulmadmax (72 posts) -

We should have an "editorial" section in Giantbomb. This is as biased as "news" gets. Then again I remember Jeff saying that's the point of Giantbomb; to promote and share the personalities of the site.

#112 Posted by Enigma777 (6057 posts) -

Man, these articles are dumb.

#113 Posted by Turambar (6675 posts) -

@EnduranceFun said:

@Turambar: I do find it quite ridiculous he picks out one guy to shame and ignores everyone else, ostensibly because he doesn't want to hear opposing opinions [discouraging!]. No offence to the user, but his poor grammar and insensitive post doesn't represent those well who disagreed with Patrick's antics.

Patrick does acknowledge that there are plenty of posts far more substantive than his example, but still opposite of his point of view.

My problem has more to do with breaking forum rules that has resulted in edits and thread locks whenever any other user did this in the past. Well, I also just think this article is needless, but that's a much lesser annoyance.

#114 Posted by hurtfulmadmax (72 posts) -

@EnduranceFun said:

Most of the discussion from the comment section ignored. Thanks for the misinformation, because the discussion you perpetuated was 'discouraging.' Yes, yes, sexism bad, Patrick good.

You also posted the same tweet twice...?

To sum up the comment section:

  • Faith is not a memorable character at all and it's insulting the way you talk about her female writer
  • Virtual boobies in Dead or Alive DLC is not equatable to real world problems
  • Secretaries are largely female and gamers are largely male, thus the stereotypes
  • Twitter is not a good sole sample for a 'news story'
  • How about some coverage on social issues in games other than sexism?

EnduranceFun bringing the heat again.

#115 Edited by Bishop113 (191 posts) -

I know it's a mistake commenting on this crap more because it's just going to go to shit as these discussions always do.

Patrick, I agree with you that it would be nice to have more strong female roles in games, there are a lot out there IMO, but it's pretty clear not as many as there are male protagonists. The problem I have with this and with -most- feminist movements is that it's not about change, it's not about getting the word out and fighting for improvement in respect for women. It's about shock and awe, it's about acting like a victim and blatantly focusing on only a few negative examples whilst ignoring literally thousands of positive examples. This happens in all media and quite frankly, the fact that you are dragging it onto giantbomb instead of giving me actual news on the industry and more insider stuff like you usually do, it just pisses me off. I don't want this melodramatic bullshit on the one gaming site I still visit and if it continues, I'll just stop coming here just like I unfollowed you on twitter. I know that means nothing in the grand scheme of things given you probably have several hundred thousand visits monthly/bi-monthly, but it disappoints me that the site I've been coming to for years is becoming a place I want nothing to do with when you guys talk about this type of shit.

Someone on the last article said this is like a gawker article, just made for click-bait and I agree. Keep this on your twitter and out of this website please.

#116 Posted by shintsurugi (75 posts) -

As a male, I can't hope to know what sexism feels like from the other side.

That's why I'm glad things like this get brought to my attention. It may not be what I'm looking for from a gaming site, but I like to know when my favorite hobby suffers from problems like this.

Keep up what you're doing. Keep people informed. That's what journalists are for, aren't they?

#117 Edited by EnduranceFun (1114 posts) -

@hurtfulmadmax: I wonder if Pat-san notices me. *blush*

While we're on equality, why is Eve Walter twice as important as everyone else quoted? I call bias.

#118 Posted by HellBound (1046 posts) -

Articles like these really bring out peoples true colors. I held the community to high standards and now I just shake my head.

Oh well.

#119 Posted by YOU_DIED (702 posts) -

@EnduranceFun said:

@YOU_DIED said:

Well said, but how about more games and less social issues?

Beggars can't be choosers. :'(

YES! Now that I have an audience, I can use my power to peddle my uninformed social commentary with quotes from internet social networking platforms. Just kidding, lets play some fucking games instead.

#120 Posted by Cloudenvy (5891 posts) -

@EnduranceFun: Senpai never looks at me. : (

#121 Posted by pbhawks45 (736 posts) -

@EnduranceFun said:

@anarchyzombie9: Sexism can be argued to be 'prevalent' everywhere. This is not unique to the gaming industry and Patrick fails to do any more than beat a dead horse.

So, because it is everywhere, it can't be more prevalent in the games industry than in other fields? Is that a valid excuse to keep things the status quo?

#122 Posted by CornBREDX (4806 posts) -
@pbhawks45: I feel you are reading way to much into what I said haha 
 
When I say there are bigger issues in the world, I mean say- the fact that Iraq was put in the middle of a "war" it's people never wanted or technically deserved and it's country is in shambles. Or hungry children everywhere in the world. There are bigger issues.
 
This is an issue and I do think it should be discussed. I do not wish to downplay it with further arguments, but I think people blow equality issues in general into major proportions (meaning sometimes they say it's not a big deal, sometimes they say they don't care, etc. etc.). 
 
I don't want to get into that, though. It's not my intent to start an argument over equality semantics. 
 
Anyway, I had (still have really) no intention of discussing this further. My main goal was to point out that I agree with a point Patrick raised, and why I don't generally comment on articles like this. =)
#123 Posted by xMrSunshine (360 posts) -

I don't really want to comment on this can of worms but duuuuuuude why would you call a user out in an article on the main page because he made stupid comment on the internet. At least block the name and jesus fucking christ don't post a picture and everything. I'm pretty effing sure that's against the rules of this site. Rules that every user needs to agree to follow when they make their account (might not be true, it's been a while since I made an account) and if they break the rules they can/should get punished for it. Not a great example of this when a staff member does something like this.

Whaaaat the fuuuuck. If you're smart you'll do some damage control and edit that shit out like ten minutes ago.

#124 Posted by Grimluck343 (1148 posts) -

@hurtfulmadmax said:

@EnduranceFun said:

Most of the discussion from the comment section ignored. Thanks for the misinformation, because the discussion you perpetuated was 'discouraging.' Yes, yes, sexism bad, Patrick good.

You also posted the same tweet twice...?

To sum up the comment section:

  • Faith is not a memorable character at all and it's insulting the way you talk about her female writer
  • Virtual boobies in Dead or Alive DLC is not equatable to real world problems
  • Secretaries are largely female and gamers are largely male, thus the stereotypes
  • Twitter is not a good sole sample for a 'news story'
  • How about some coverage on social issues in games other than sexism?

EnduranceFun bringing the heat again.

You should have seen this man yesterday.

#125 Posted by BrianP (407 posts) -

@EnduranceFun said:

@anarchyzombie9: Sexism can be argued to be 'prevalent' everywhere. This is not unique to the gaming industry and Patrick fails to do any more than beat a dead horse.

If it's prevalent, it still exists, if it still exists it is not a "dead horse". You are like the Thomas Friedman of metaphors on the comment sections of these articles.

#126 Posted by anarchyzombie9 (615 posts) -

I'm just gonna sit back and watch Men's Rights Activists talk about how hard being a straight white male in America is and sip my mojito like the fancy Southern gentleman I am.

#127 Posted by Milkman (16527 posts) -

@xMrSunshine said:

I don't really want to comment on this can of worms but duuuuuuude why would you call a user out in an article on the main page because he made stupid comment on the internet. At least block the name and jesus fucking christ don't post a picture and everything. I'm pretty effing sure that's against the rules of this site. Rules that every user needs to agree to follow when they make their account (might not be true, it's been a while since I made an account) and if they break the rules they can/should get punished for it. Not a great example of this when a staff member does something like this.

Whaaaat the fuuuuck. If you're smart you'll do some damage control and edit that shit out like ten minutes ago.

If you post a comment publicly on the internet, it's for everyone to see. People should think before they type.

#128 Posted by leebmx (2216 posts) -

Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention. Even if it brings all the knuckle-draggers out.

#129 Posted by iAmJohn (6108 posts) -

@xMrSunshine said:

I don't really want to comment on this can of worms but duuuuuuude why would you call a user out in an article on the main page because he made stupid comment on the internet. At least block the name and jesus fucking christ don't post a picture and everything. I'm pretty effing sure that's against the rules of this site. Rules that every user needs to agree to follow when they make their account (might not be true, it's been a while since I made an account) and if they break the rules they can/should get punished for it. Not a great example of this when a staff member does something like this.

Whaaaat the fuuuuck. If you're smart you'll do some damage control and edit that shit out like ten minutes ago.

I'm sorry, but how would this in any way be against the rules? This is no different from me hitting the quote button to reply to your post; the only difference is that there's picture proof that he wrote it.

#130 Posted by pbhawks45 (736 posts) -

@Bishop113 said:

I know it's a mistake commenting on this crap more because it's just going to go to shit as these discussions always do.

Patrick, I agree with you that it would be nice to have more strong female roles in games, there are a lot out there IMO, but it's pretty clear not as many as there are male protagonists. The problem I have with this and with -most- feminist movements is that it's not about change, it's not about getting the word out and fighting for improvement in respect for women. It's about shock and awe, it's about acting like a victim and blatantly focusing on only a few negative examples whilst ignoring literally thousands of positive examples. This happens in all media and quite frankly, the fact that you are dragging it onto giantbomb instead of giving me actual news on the industry and more insider stuff like you usually do, it just pisses me off. I don't want this melodramatic bullshit on the one gaming site I still visit and if it continues, I'll just stop coming here just like I unfollowed you on twitter. I know that means nothing in the grand scheme of things given you probably have several hundred thousand visits monthly/bi-monthly, but it disappoints me that the site I've been coming to for years is becoming a place I want nothing to do with when you guys talk about this type of shit.

Someone on the last article said this is like a gawker article, just made for click-bait and I agree. Keep this on your twitter and out of this website please.

Peace out, then.

#131 Edited by Turambar (6675 posts) -

@Milkman said:

@xMrSunshine said:

I don't really want to comment on this can of worms but duuuuuuude why would you call a user out in an article on the main page because he made stupid comment on the internet. At least block the name and jesus fucking christ don't post a picture and everything. I'm pretty effing sure that's against the rules of this site. Rules that every user needs to agree to follow when they make their account (might not be true, it's been a while since I made an account) and if they break the rules they can/should get punished for it. Not a great example of this when a staff member does something like this.

Whaaaat the fuuuuck. If you're smart you'll do some damage control and edit that shit out like ten minutes ago.

If you post a comment publicly on the internet, it's for everyone to see. People should think before they type.

It actually is against forum rules, and violations of it has seen mod action in the past. Regardless of your opinion, would you agree the staff should abide by the rules of their own website?

#132 Posted by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -
@HellBound said:
Articles like these really bring out peoples true colors. I held the community to high standards and now I just shake my head. Oh well.
That was your first mistake.  
People are disgusting when it comes down to it. 
#133 Posted by AuthenticM (3699 posts) -

Bringing up one very real problem does not invalidate other very real problems, but being so dismissive of the argument suggests you aren’t taking the original argument seriously, and instead want to discredit it because you don’t believe it has any merit in the first place. At least be honest.

BOOM. Patrick killing it !

#134 Posted by Brodehouse (9586 posts) -

"Dudebro" is apparently an acceptable target for your scorn and derision. We've created an insult that is literally a compound word in which both pieces mean 'male'. Imagine if we had a gender flipped insult, would you feel as justified in labelling anything you didn't like with it? I want equality and fairness for men and women, and yet the dialogue remains constantly around shame and recrimination for the 'privilege' of being born male.

Patrick, you are a feminist. So am I. If you believe women are human beings with the same rights as men, you are a feminist. So is any rational thinking person in the world. To believe that feminism automatically corresponds to the self-interested complaints of vocal academia is the dark trick that the censors and Sarkeesians of the world want you to stumble into.

#135 Posted by Unequivocable (214 posts) -

This is why we can't have nice things...

I look forward to the day the internet grows up and discussions can be had about serious topics while keeping the focus on the serious topics. It seems like most times the discussion moves to be about the discussion itself to the detriment of the original story. So the story is no longer about women in gaming, it's about the internet's response to the story about women in gaming, and how the internet is full of trolls.

#136 Posted by Grimluck343 (1148 posts) -

@Turambar said:

@Milkman said:

@xMrSunshine said:

I don't really want to comment on this can of worms but duuuuuuude why would you call a user out in an article on the main page because he made stupid comment on the internet. At least block the name and jesus fucking christ don't post a picture and everything. I'm pretty effing sure that's against the rules of this site. Rules that every user needs to agree to follow when they make their account (might not be true, it's been a while since I made an account) and if they break the rules they can/should get punished for it. Not a great example of this when a staff member does something like this.

Whaaaat the fuuuuck. If you're smart you'll do some damage control and edit that shit out like ten minutes ago.

If you post a comment publicly on the internet, it's for everyone to see. People should think before they type.

It actually is against forum rules, and violations of it has seen mod action in the past. Regardless of your opinion, would you agree the staff should abide by the rules of their own website?

What rule, exactly?

#137 Posted by pbhawks45 (736 posts) -

@CornBREDX said:

@pbhawks45: I feel you are reading way to much into what I said haha

When I say there are bigger issues in the world, I mean say- the fact that Iraq was put in the middle of a "war" it's people never wanted or technically deserved and it's country is in shambles. Or hungry children everywhere in the world. There are bigger issues.

This is an issue and I do think it should be discussed. I do not wish to downplay it with further arguments, but I think people blow equality issues in general into major proportions (meaning sometimes they say it's not a big deal, sometimes they say they don't care, etc. etc.). I don't want to get into that, though. It's not my intent to start an argument over equality semantics. Anyway, I had (still have really) no intention of discussing this further. My main goal was to point out that I agree with a point Patrick raised, and why I don't generally comment on articles like this. =)

My apologies. I hope you get what I mean, though. I think there are women who want things to improve, and are afraid of receiving backlash in their workplaces, however unjust it may be. Especially in this economy, where finding a job is really, really hard.

#138 Posted by Milkman (16527 posts) -

@Turambar said:

@EnduranceFun said:

@Turambar: I do find it quite ridiculous he picks out one guy to shame and ignores everyone else, ostensibly because he doesn't want to hear opposing opinions [discouraging!]. No offence to the user, but his poor grammar and insensitive post doesn't represent those well who disagreed with Patrick's antics.

Patrick does acknowledge that there are plenty of posts far more substantive than his example, but still opposite of his point of view.

My problem has more to do with breaking forum rules that has resulted in edits and thread locks whenever any other user did this in the past. Well, I also just think this article is needless, but that's a much lesser annoyance.

That's not a rule. If the article was called "[INSERT USER NAME HERE] is a sexist asshole", that'd be against the rules. But this guy posted his comment on a public forum on the internet. In turn, he's subject to praise, criticism, whatever. Saying that the forum user's name shouldn't be included in like saying all of the tweets in the first article and this one shouldn't be included. People should think before they type and some sort of responsibility for your words is sadly missing on the internet.

#139 Edited by ptys (1887 posts) -

I used to work in retail fashion selling upmarket clothing. Believe me, alot of discrimination went on there as I had to constantly prove as a heterosexual male that I understood about style and fittings, which I did more so than most of the females working there. People just get defensive when their "passions" get invaded by what has always been the enemy.

#140 Posted by Bartz (87 posts) -

here we go again guys

#142 Posted by Grimluck343 (1148 posts) -

@pbhawks45 said:

My apologies. I hope you get what I mean, though. I think there are women who want things to improve, and are afraid of receiving backlash in their workplaces, however unjust it may be. Especially in this economy, where finding a job is really, really hard.

If you were really afraid of backlash, why would you tweet about it on your personal twitter account?

#143 Edited by cikame (969 posts) -

47% of people who play games may be women, but what are they playing games on?
I have no evidence of any kind, but i imagine most of the money from the hardcore game market comes from men, the huge investment for projects like Call of Duty, Assassins Creed, Hitman, GTA and others speaks for itself.  
We seem to be counting mobile games as "video games" now and that's fine, might i suggest that's where the largest percentage of women are playing their games. Less violent themed games have found recent success in this market but it's not an area which demands huge Hollywood budgets, vision and talent.
I would gladly play a game more approachable to women players if it seemed interesting, but that market is on mobile devices which i don't have because i'm a traditional hardcore gamer, don't pretend the market which interests me doesn't matter when it does to me and the largest part of the industry.

#144 Posted by Matoyak (270 posts) -

Wow. Reading through the comments of this and the previous thread are... wow. People are actually defending sexism. Even more people are actively saying "who cares, shut up, we don't want to hear it, so don't bring it up." Still others are promoting letting it go because "all industries are like this, it sucks but it won't change".

Holy shit, guys and girls, it's fucking 2012, y'all. This kind of shit shouldn't fly.

#145 Edited by mnzy (2911 posts) -
@hurtfulmadmax said:

We should have an "editorial" section in Giantbomb. This is as biased as "news" gets. Then again I remember Jeff saying that's the point of Giantbomb; to promote and share the personalities of the site.

If it's only here to start a discussion, maybe he should just create a forum topic, because I don't see how this is news. 
I think there might be a good article in there somewhere, but right now, this is not good.
#146 Posted by bombedyermom (226 posts) -

@cabrit_sans_cor said:

This.

Stay strong, Scoops. You're doing good work.

#147 Posted by EnduranceFun (1114 posts) -

@BrianP: If it isn't a dead horse, it's a morbidly obese horse after feeding on all these sexist / feminist articles posted by Patrick. To much of the community, these have become a tiresome part of the site.

#148 Posted by Milkman (16527 posts) -

@xMrSunshine said:

@iAmJohn:

2. NO victimization of others or use of discriminatory language: Includes but not limited to hateful personal attacks against other users, sexism, or any racist or homophobic slurs or statements. Similarly, you may not release the personal information of another user without their consent.

I'll bet my ass that if a regular user would do something like this it would result in a ban, warning or some other method of punishment.

Patrick did none of those things. He simply presented his comment and presented his rebuttal. He didn't personally attack the user. He didn't release any personal information. It's no different than me quoting your post right now.

#149 Posted by Itwastuesday (934 posts) -

I sincerely hope Patrick writes one of these every day so I can come read idiots putting their feet in their mouths.

#150 Posted by Turambar (6675 posts) -

@Grimluck343: The same rule that saw HandsomeDead's threads being edited for targetting specific users within the OP, if anyone remembers that guy. There is no written one that I can find as MB has boiled it down to "Don't be a jerk" in the FAQ thread.