#201 Posted by BD_Mr_Bubbles (1702 posts) -

@dr_mantas said:

@Jumbs said:

MRAs will once again come out of the woodwork, claim women receive better treatment than men, and thus the cycle continues.

I wish you could install a privilege filter on here.

I wish you would stop mentioning Men's Rights Activists and "privilege" when you really don't understand either. And NEITHER is really relevant to the conversation.

Just fucking stop. Let's just support these women in the game development industry. After all, this is about them.

No need to be negative, dismissive and insulting.

#202 Posted by AlexanderSheen (5036 posts) -

There's no winning situation in posting here or on the other article, so I'm not gonna touch any of this poison from now on.

Fuck all video games!

#203 Posted by TDot (331 posts) -

What about the men!? Won't somebody please think of the men! #misandry2012

#204 Edited by thealexray (66 posts) -

@EnduranceFun: You don't know what feminism is at all; you're just parroting a right-wing strawman version of it which barely exists in the real world if at all.

#205 Posted by depecheload (496 posts) -

@Deusx said:

#1reasontobe is something I can actually get behind, it's positive and it doesn't generalize men as sexist pigs all over the world. I say good on that.

Neither did the other hashtag, but hey, have fun missing the point. You're good at it.

#206 Posted by Alorithin (125 posts) -

I woke up this morning after making 25+ comments in the last thread.

I had spent 4+ hours yesterday reading through the developing stories in the thread.

Here I am again, posting something that matters so little.

Patrick Klepek won't change. The giantbomb community won't change. Twitter wont change.

What's the use.

#207 Posted by JasonR86 (9741 posts) -

Oh boy. I'm going to re-post a response I had in the 'other' "news" article about the hastag nonsense:

"@the_OFFICIAL_jAPanese_teaBAG said:

Jesus Christ at the number of comments here......... why..........

Sexism sells? The ironic thing about this is that all the comments, all the views, all the attention is just going to inform Giantbomb, other websites, and those on twitter to do more of this stuff because page views are pretty great. I know that sounds cynical but...really, over 1K comments don't lie."

Who fucking called it? ME!!!

#208 Posted by biosfear (8 posts) -

while I am very grateful you're keeping up the discussion on this and calling out some comments for what they are - ignorant. I take issue with the fact that you make sure to distance yourself from the term "feminist". Like someone else said, all it means is you're for equality for women which is what most people should be. If you care about human rights, surprise! You're a feminist!

#209 Posted by fallen_rock2 (45 posts) -

@Grimluck343 said:

@fallen_rock2 said:

Wow, create controversy and then report on yourself. That some fucking quality ass journalism right there.

Don't forget to be really disappointed at all the internet trolls you fed in the previous article!

I even missed the fact that he quoted himself on my first read through. Where does this guy get off?

#210 Posted by dr_mantas (1973 posts) -

@iAmJohn said:

@Brodehouse said:

I long for the day when 'entitled' and 'privileged' used as insults against men are viewed as disgusting as 'emotional' and 'hysterical' are for women. What an incredibly disingenuous way of labeling a human being completely irrelevant. If you call someone 'privileged' on account of their gender, you label their thoughts and feelings completely worthless because of how they were born. I wonder how you would feel if the same happened to you.

Acting like it's not a problem because it doesn't personally affect you, as many people in these comments and the comments from the last story have done and continue to do, is pretty much the definition of being "privileged." Or, to put it another way, an out-of-touch asshole.

Well they are ignorant, then, not privileged. Also, they are so because of who they are, not because they're men, women or monkeys. If simply having an opinion that is different than yours and being a man is what qualifies for asshole, maybe you are a bit out of touch.

#211 Posted by CornBREDX (5579 posts) -
@pbhawks45: I realize that.  
 
I think you misunderstood my point when I said "women should stand up for themselves..." 
 
What I mean by that is that I am not against them discussing this issue on twitter, creating a hash tag, or Patrick raising awareness for it in an article trying to promote discussion on it. It was a statement of agreement with what Patrick was saying and a mild "for the record I'm on the side of equality." 
 
I suffer from social anxiety, PTSD, and other what not, which have stigmas attached with society at large. Even if it's not the same (it's not), I can sympathize with not wanting to lose a job by raising a fuss over something mild but distasteful that someone just wanted to raise awareness of.
 
So, hopefully that clears things up.
#212 Posted by Turambar (6808 posts) -

@iAmJohn said:

@Turambar said:

@Milkman said:

@xMrSunshine said:

@iAmJohn:

2. NO victimization of others or use of discriminatory language: Includes but not limited to hateful personal attacks against other users, sexism, or any racist or homophobic slurs or statements. Similarly, you may not release the personal information of another user without their consent.

I'll bet my ass that if a regular user would do something like this it would result in a ban, warning or some other method of punishment.

Patrick did none of those things. He simply presented his comment and presented his rebuttal. He didn't personally attack the user. He didn't release any personal information. It's no different than me quoting your post right now.

I'd say making a focal point within the OP makes a bit different from simply quoting. Identifying the user within the OP also has something to do with it. Mods have deleted threads whose OPs have included such targeted criticisms before, even if they did not include personal insults.

And if they did exactly what Patrick did, then they followed the rules to a T and the mods were wrong to close those threads.

What now?

Then tell that to the mods, and tell the staff to have that rule redefined to prevent mods from carrying out action against similar threads in the future.

#213 Posted by sissylion (679 posts) -

@WilltheMagicAsian said:

Yes, more sensationalist articles please. That's what I come to GB for.

Yeah man, nothing's more sensational than acknowledging that women have a place in video games. I'm sick of this thoughtful discussion on sexism in the video game industry and how it's obviously just an attempt at page views.

Next thing you know, Klepek is going to say that racism is bad. The gall of that man.

#214 Posted by Orange_Pork (602 posts) -

Damn. AmericanNinja on ultimate blast.

#215 Posted by Milkman (16996 posts) -

@Enigma777 said:

I don't come to Giant Bomb for articles like these. It's the wrong place for such a discussion in my opinion. Just because you have a soapbox doesn't mean that you have to use it for every little thing Patrick. On the other hand, when there's no news to write about, you gotta take what you can get... even if you gotta scrape the bottom of the barrel. It's a tough line to balance.

If you don't come to Giant Bomb for articles like these, don't click it. I don't come for Giant Bomb for trailers so most of the time, I don't watch them. Some people enjoy the articles and just because you don't doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.

#216 Posted by EnduranceFun (1114 posts) -

@SharkMan said:

raising awareness is something dumbass. raises your awareness so that when you recognize it happening you do something. derp.

MUH AWARENESS

Everyone must know who already knows so that we can all do something!

#217 Posted by MasturbatingestBear (1192 posts) -

What I don't get is that the people that are complaining about this article being here are the same people who were arguing in the other story.

These are the kinds of stories that make me glad that Patrick is on staff.

#218 Posted by Dagbiker (6978 posts) -

@xMrSunshine said:

@iAmJohn:

2. NO victimization of others or use of discriminatory language: Includes but not limited to hateful personal attacks against other users, sexism, or any racist or homophobic slurs or statements. Similarly, you may not release the personal information of another user without their consent.

I'll bet my ass that if a regular user would do something like this it would result in a ban, warning or some other method of punishment.

First, your probably right, if a member wrote a blog and got 1000 posts all arguing with each other, half using derogatory terms, and a third just trolling. Then It would be locked pretty fast.

But Patrick is not a User. He is a Staff member, as much as you may feel that is unfair, he gets privileges members do not. And, although I think it is kind of a bullshit thing to do. Patrick has never been actively mean, in fact he has been nothing but nice to the community, while others, **COUGH** RYAN **COUGH**, have their up days and their down days, Im sure he just wasn't thinking, perhaps, if it bothers you, you could write a nicely worded PM to as to why you think he should remove it.

#219 Posted by Kinapuff (244 posts) -

You can kind of start to see why the actual issue at hand isn't being resolved or progressing in any way or form when the main topic of discussion here seems to be 'desperately trying to convince others that patrick is breaking x or y rule'.

I realize the slight hypocritical nature of this post in that I'm not contributing much to the discussion myself, but seriously guys? Fucking pathetic.

Keep up the good work P.

#220 Posted by polymorph (17 posts) -

Here here Patrick great read, keep up the good work. I won't wade in at the moment too much beer in me, but this is the sort of stuff I love to read.

#221 Posted by stryker1121 (1519 posts) -

@WilltheMagicAsian said:

Yes, more sensationalist articles please. That's what I come to GB for.

Hardly sensationalist. This was a very positive article, as was the previous one.

#222 Posted by sirdesmond (1244 posts) -

Although I sort of enjoyed reading the first piece, I'm not really sure Giant Bomb needed another article regarding this topic (especially so soon).

Also, I hate when people use the phrase "strong, independent women" for women with jobs, as if the word "women" doesn't already contain either of those qualities. It's the "you're a real testament to your race" of sexism. An insulting compliment.

#223 Posted by EnduranceFun (1114 posts) -

@thealexray: Men just can't understand. What, did you take a feminist class in college? Stop berating.

#224 Posted by depecheload (496 posts) -

This has made The Guardian, Huff Post, Forbes and NBCNews. So all you misogynist creeps who don't want "sensationalist" stories like this (also, read what that actually means), shut the hell up. This is actual, real news now. So grow up a bit and listen, you're sexist little brains might learn something.

#225 Posted by Jaytow (703 posts) -

these.... articles... have... to

... stop.. so ...... ann..oying.......

Talk.... about..... vid....eo ...

Games.....

#226 Posted by Patman99 (1603 posts) -

I hate the term "First World Problems". There is nothing more infuriating when someone just shouts that crap out. Have some damn relativism and actually think what the statement "First World Problems" actually does. Essentially, it categorizes a list of problems that the "Third World" cannot have. In other words, "First World Problems" are generally mundane and have little, if anything, to do with the core pillars of survival (Food, water, shelter). I would argue that even the poorest of people have their version of mundane problems. So not only are you trying to shit on something someone cares about, but you are essentially doing so in a very elitist manner.

Furthermore, attaching "First World Problems" to anything automatically tries to remove that problem of any sort of relevance. This #1reasonwhy and #1reasontobe movements are not really about video games. Rather, they are about sexism. Video games are a passive backdrop. I guarantee the same type of sexism in video games occurs in other facets of life. Sexism is not a First World Problem, it is a Whole World Problem and it is something that some people cannot come to terms with. Now I'm neither female nor a feminist, but I do believe that racism, sexism, and bigotry still exists. While certain feminist movements take the message a little too far, this gaming related movement does not. Read those tweets, and you will see that if nothing else. Some of those tweets (assuming they are not totally exaggerated) state some dark ass shit, something I was too naive to think even existed. The reality is that there will always be scumbags, male and female, but if this movement does nothing else, it should get people to think about how they treat other human beings in general. This self-reflection could potentially stop some sexist acts from occurring.

My point is, do not attempt to diminish this movement, and especially do not slap stupid labels like "First World Problems" onto the cause. It does not make people rethink their stance, if anything it makes them think less of the person who said it.

#227 Posted by flasaltine (1681 posts) -

@McGhee said:

Perfect. Comment of the Year.

#228 Posted by Dark_Lord_Spam (3387 posts) -

I truly appreciate the effort, Patrick. As someone who almost never uses his Twitter account, there's no chance I could have heard about this and contributed without your article. It's thought-provoking, yes, and that's something we too rarely get in coverage of entertainment mediums.

At the very least, I'm sure some horizons were expanded, which as far as I'm concerned means you were successful.

#229 Posted by xMrSunshine (361 posts) -

@Dagbiker: But if I don't write something nice then maybe I'll get featured in the next article. It could be my first step to being a celebrity!

Or I could make a hashtag on Twitter. Seems to work about as well.

#230 Posted by thealexray (66 posts) -

@EnduranceFun: I don't care about what you think, your mind is clearly already made up. I'm just letting you know that everyone is laughing at you.

#231 Posted by Trainer_Red (314 posts) -

@Turambar said:

If this was a forum thread made by a user, the mods would lock this thread and direct all discussion to the original one, if it wasn't already locked due to the comments getting out of hand.

EXACTLY.

I'm flagging this because it should be flagged.

#232 Posted by IUMogg (3 posts) -

I would think Patrick is a feminist. Feminism is just wanting equal rights for women. I suppose the word has been taken over by extreme wings of the movement, but in general I would think he was.

#233 Posted by marbleCmoney (477 posts) -

Thanks for writing these, Patrick. I found the first article particularly enlightening about what some people consider acceptable behavior in a professional environment such as "our lead designer used to yell about there being 'a vagina in the room.'" The fact someone would read that and then say the person should just "grow a pair" is mind boggling to me. That is simply unacceptable.

I agree with some people that instances like that may not have to do with the culture surrounding games, and might exist with similar frequency in other industries. That doesn't mean we, people who consider ourselves part of the gaming community, shouldn't try to take some kind of stand against it. Even if that is simply making it a conversation and making people think about it.

I don't think it's something we should just strive for on the industry side of things either. I'd love to see the broader gaming community decide that throwing slurs around (whatever their nature) is not acceptable behavior online instead of just brushing it off and saying "lol it's the internet, get used to it." But who knows if that will happen anytime soon?

#234 Posted by Xeirus (1333 posts) -

@Jaytow said:

these.... articles... have... to

... stop.. so ...... ann..oying.......

Talk.... about..... vid....eo ...

Games.....

This IS about video games you dumbass, do you realize that some ladies have jobs and some of those jobs are to make video games?

If you're bored get off the damn article, fucks sake.

#235 Posted by pbhawks45 (736 posts) -

@biosfear said:

while I am very grateful you're keeping up the discussion on this and calling out some comments for what they are - ignorant. I take issue with the fact that you make sure to distance yourself from the term "feminist". Like someone else said, all it means is you're for equality for women which is what most people should be. If you care about human rights, surprise! You're a feminist!

LIAR! You want to PUT MEN DOWN...or something. Sigh. It makes me sad seeing that you had to explain this point.

#236 Posted by Sharpless (472 posts) -

Props to Patrick for being infinitely more civil towards GB commenters than I would've wanted to be.

No matter how many difficulties white males face in the gaming industry, those difficulties will always be relatively minor compared to the difficulties faced by anyone who isn't white or male. (I know race hasn't been a factor in this argument, but it's worth mentioning in the same breath as sexism.) And, I say that as a white male. Louis CK has a great bit about how being a white male is pretty much the best thing in the world, and it's true. We are the dominant force in the western world. We are not persecuted or harassed, generally speaking. Does that mean we don't have valid problems? No, of course not. Everyone has problems. But, let's try to be a little more sensitive to those who get dicked over by society more often than we do. "Privilege" is a profoundly annoying social justice buzzword, but the concept is not without truth. We've got it pretty good. Let's not be a dick about it. It's not about us.

#237 Posted by TDot (331 posts) -

@biosfear:

Well there's different types of feminism. Some are really just studying gender in culture and hold up a mirror to why we treat some people differently than others. Hopefully that leads to a better understanding and equal treatment.

#238 Posted by heatDrive88 (2357 posts) -

@pbhawks45 said:

@Bishop113 said:

I know it's a mistake commenting on this crap more because it's just going to go to shit as these discussions always do.

Patrick, I agree with you that it would be nice to have more strong female roles in games, there are a lot out there IMO, but it's pretty clear not as many as there are male protagonists. The problem I have with this and with -most- feminist movements is that it's not about change, it's not about getting the word out and fighting for improvement in respect for women. It's about shock and awe, it's about acting like a victim and blatantly focusing on only a few negative examples whilst ignoring literally thousands of positive examples. This happens in all media and quite frankly, the fact that you are dragging it onto giantbomb instead of giving me actual news on the industry and more insider stuff like you usually do, it just pisses me off. I don't want this melodramatic bullshit on the one gaming site I still visit and if it continues, I'll just stop coming here just like I unfollowed you on twitter. I know that means nothing in the grand scheme of things given you probably have several hundred thousand visits monthly/bi-monthly, but it disappoints me that the site I've been coming to for years is becoming a place I want nothing to do with when you guys talk about this type of shit.

Someone on the last article said this is like a gawker article, just made for click-bait and I agree. Keep this on your twitter and out of this website please.

Peace out, then.

I guess i'll just leave this here for the OP then, but happy trails regardless:

ig·nor·ance

(ˈɪɡnərəns)
n lack of knowledge, information, or education; the state of being ignorant
early 13c., from Fr. ignorance (12c.), from L. ignorantia (see ignorant).

ig·no·rant

[ig-ner-uh nt] Show IPA

adjective

1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.

2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject orfact: ignorant of quantum physics.

3. uninformed; unaware.

4.due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

Origin:

1325–75; Middle English ignora ( u ) nt < Latin ignōrant- (stem ofignōrāns ), present participle of ignōrāre to ignore; see -ant

#239 Posted by EnduranceFun (1114 posts) -

@thealexray: You sure are delusional. Everyone laughing at me for not 'knowing about feminism?' This is one of the most obnoxious things I've read in these articles - truly an accomplishment.

#240 Posted by Shaanyboi (1318 posts) -

I'm amazed that people are actually using the "white knighting" argument against Patrick or any other male editor pointing out something as blatant as sexism in this industry.

"Hey, we hired a female editor, so now we can discuss sexism in the games industry! Oh, and just to be safe, she's also half-black, half-korean, AND a muslim! So now if we ever need to discuss race issues or religious depiction, we got that covered too."

#241 Posted by Milkman (16996 posts) -

@EnduranceFun said:

@SharkMan said:

raising awareness is something dumbass. raises your awareness so that when you recognize it happening you do something. derp.

MUH AWARENESS

Everyone must know who already knows so that we can all do something!

Sigh, I really shouldn't bother but out of curiosity....

Do you have a problem with this? Or this? Or this?

#242 Posted by jbuchan76 (156 posts) -

Sexism = Bad

Twitter = Bad

News story based on tweet = Bad

2nd News story based on tweet = Even more - Bad

Not talking about video games on a video game site = oh so Bad

My 5 comments above = stupid just like twitter and news stories based on twitter. Sexism has been around since man and woman stood upright and took our first steps. It exists in every job, religion, school, politics, relationships, everything. It's not like a virus or a cancer. There is no cure. All we can do is try to avoid it and do the right thing. Treat others as you would like to be treated.

Now i'm going back to shooting dudes in the face .. (CodBlops II) How would people feel if we shot women in the face? (I know i wouldn't like it).

#243 Posted by Cianyx (50 posts) -

@BlastProcessing said:

You're sort of right, I'll give you that. But at the same time, there are way more serious things to care about. Are women being lynched by angry mobs of men, whilst they burn a huge male symbol? Anyone's life at stake? No, not really. Maybe if someone came out and said that Cliffy B fondled them in a very wrong way, then I'd take arms against the male oppressor. Until then, I'm gonna play Halo 4.

The same thing could have been said for the African-American civil rights movement: "Well, at least they aren't in slavery anymore, what more could they want?" I'm in no way saying that the two are comparable but there is a reason why the relativist argument is a cop out and unhelpful in discussion.

Not directed at you btw. For a bunch of dudes who'd support gender equality and whatnot, you guys are getting pretty defensive when people talk about gender discrimination.

@Bishop113 said:

Someone on the last article said this is like a gawker article, just made for click-bait and I agree. Keep this on your twitter and out of this website please.

This is really only a click-bait article if you have some vested interest in the topic at hand. It's only as big as you make it out to be

#244 Posted by pbhawks45 (736 posts) -

@CornBREDX said:

@pbhawks45: I realize that. I think you misunderstood my point when I said "women should stand up for themselves..." What I mean by that is that I am not against them discussing this issue on twitter, creating a hash tag, or Patrick raising awareness for it in an article trying to promote discussion on it. It was a statement of agreement with what Patrick was saying and a mild "for the record I'm on the side of equality." I suffer from social anxiety, PTSD, and other what not, which have stigmas attached with society at large. Even if it's not the same (it's not), I can sympathize with not wanting to lose a job by raising a fuss over something mild but distasteful that someone just wanted to raise awareness of. So, hopefully that clears things up.

Totally! I've dealt with similar issues in the past as well. Apologies if it seemed I lashed out at you, did not mean that at all.

#245 Posted by Terramagi (1159 posts) -

Oh boy, I see we're in the "somebody disagrees with me on the internet, better shame them publically" phase of this clusterfuck.

Should I get out my pipe and deerskin coat and start boxing people after I deliver their address, Patrick? Will that get you the views and validation you so desperately want? Will that stop these fucking Kotaku articles from appearing in huge letters on the front page?

#246 Posted by Fat_Magnum (68 posts) -

I'd say my disinterest in the issue stems not from a perceived invalidity in the original argument but from the fact there's very little I can/would do to "oppose" the apparent prevalence of misogyny in gaming culture, after reading an awareness article such as this that I already don't. Which is to simply be fine with the knowledge that I do my part when involved in gaming communities to demonstrate appropriate civility to anyone I come across, regardless of their status. Inflammatory remarks and proclamations about the perceived wrongness of others would, I think, accomplish significantly less. Besides, as Klepek mentioned, as a male I am in a position that carries with it an inherent disconnect to the issue at hand.

#247 Posted by Sordel (26 posts) -

This topic is a classic example of no lose for one side of the argument and no win for the other. Of course sexism is bad, and it's in every gamer's interest that the people who have successful careers in games development be the most talented people rather than the most talented people of a particular gender.

The problem is: the games industry as a whole is in thrall to women. Out of a gaming population that is overwhelmingly male, women are disproportionately represented in games media. Of course no one's saying that women on the development side should pay a price for the simpering "girl gamers" in low-cut tops on the media side. But a woman entering for a career in the games industry should surely have her eyes open about entering a grossly sexist industry, where being a woman is likely to be both a help and a hindrance.

Historically, women entered the games industry later than men, because it was overwhelmingly boys who were playing games back in the eighties and nineties. They will definitely catch up: remember, J. K. Rowling took a gender-neutral name because she was told that boys wouldn't buy fantasy from a female author; as women developers become more successful, no orthodoxy that devalues them can stand.

#248 Posted by thealexray (66 posts) -

@EnduranceFun: No, they're laughing at you for running around like a chicken with your head cut off and generally posting dumb panicked things.

#249 Posted by dr_mantas (1973 posts) -

@depecheload: Stop insulting people.

@EnduranceFun: Keep fighting the good fight.

And for everyone else, they keyword is egalitarian. Feminism is for equal rights with a certain emphasis on women, whichever doctrine you follow, even moderate feminism.

#250 Posted by allworkandlowpay (874 posts) -

@depecheload said:

This has made The Guardian, Huff Post, Forbes and NBCNews. So all you misogynist creeps who don't want "sensationalist" stories like this (also, read what that actually means), shut the hell up. This is actual, real news now. So grow up a bit and listen, you're sexist little brains might learn something.

Without taking a side on the matter, I have to point out that this line of thinking is completely falling into the trap of logical fallacies. Your statement is both an argument of authority and argument of the majority. A bunch of news outlet, even popular or prestigious ones, airing time on a story does not instantly invalidate ones criticism about said story's validity or sensationalist tone.