#151 Edited by TrafalgarLaw (1195 posts) -

@theht said:

@trafalgarlaw: there was a dismissiveness to it that undermined the notion of gen--wait, why are we discussing the fuckin years old tweet that already had consequences and apologies and repercussions and hashing out?

Because what happened still impact the gaming industry. It's a long line of examples like Orth in which people are ostracized based on tweets. Civil conduct on both ends is important, it basically stigmatized both sides. Take VGX, 5 years ago we'd shrug at Joel's Mario transgender joke and move on. But now we have to actively condemn it or we might be either supporting it or be part of the problem according some groups. You could write a brilliant thesis on this how we've changed our tone. This needs discussing with real thought put in it, not swept under the rug, even if it was done and took place very long time ago.

Online
#152 Posted by Humanity (9818 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@darji: It's not her responsibility to explain. It's your responsibility to learn, and to ask questions without coming off as insensitive.

I don't know. I'd say @darji's trying to learn. He's just not particularly good at expressing it.

I don't know either. As much as I am for civil discussions and respecting other human beings regardless of race, sex etc.. I don't think it should be anyones responsibility to Google transgender issues before posting on a video game forum in case you inadvertently offend someone. It's a fairly niche topic that most people, myself included, aren't familiar with. Heck I don't even know what SRS is. What I do know is that coming down on someone for whom english is a secondary language, and is making an effort to understand and be civil as best as he can in a thread that is quite dangerously careening off the rails, is quite insensitive in of itself. I mean Darji writes some awful stuff from time to time sure, but I honestly don't think he ever means anyone harm.

#153 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@humanity said:

@video_game_king said:

@hailinel said:

@darji: It's not her responsibility to explain. It's your responsibility to learn, and to ask questions without coming off as insensitive.

I don't know. I'd say @darji's trying to learn. He's just not particularly good at expressing it.

Heck I don't even know what SRS is.

I'm assuming it means "sex reassignment surgery". The only other option is that the transgender community really values memory.

#154 Edited by TruthTellah (9387 posts) -

@theht said:

@trafalgarlaw: there was a dismissiveness to it that undermined the notion of gen--wait, why are we discussing the fuckin years old tweet that already had consequences and apologies and repercussions and hashing out?

Because what happened still impact the gaming industry. It's a long line of examples like Orth in which people are ostracized based on tweets. Civil conduct on both ends is important, it basically stigmatized both sides. Take VGX, 5 years ago we'd shrug at Joel's Mario transgender joke and move on. But now we have to actively condemn it or we might be either supporting it or be part of the problem according some groups. You could write a brilliant thesis on this how we've changed our tone. This needs discussing with real thought put in it, not swept under the rug, even if it was done and took place very long time ago.

hmmm... It might be good to write a post on how far we've come. There is certainly more awareness, and conversation is more common rather than simply a rare occurrence. You're right; things have been improving to some extent.

If I feel like a glutton for punishment in the next few weeks, maybe I'll write up something about the progress we've seen in recent times. :)

#155 Edited by TruthTellah (9387 posts) -

Can we get back on topic of his apology and resolve to improve himself?

One member's relative quality is both not the topic and something I specifically requested people to please not drag into this. Unless it is in the context of resolving to do better in your own interactions with others, it doesn't seem relevant to Gabe's public statement.

I appreciate some of the back and forth on trying to inform someone, and yall have been awesome about it. But let's try to stick to Gabe's statement about seeing an issue within himself and wanting to change.

#156 Posted by Humanity (9818 posts) -

@humanity said:

@video_game_king said:

@hailinel said:

@darji: It's not her responsibility to explain. It's your responsibility to learn, and to ask questions without coming off as insensitive.

I don't know. I'd say @darji's trying to learn. He's just not particularly good at expressing it.

Heck I don't even know what SRS is.

I'm assuming it means "sex reassignment surgery". The only other option is that the transgender community really values memory.

I'm fairly certain it's the memory thing.

#157 Edited by ArtelinaRose (1856 posts) -

@humanity said:

@video_game_king said:

@hailinel said:

@darji: It's not her responsibility to explain. It's your responsibility to learn, and to ask questions without coming off as insensitive.

I don't know. I'd say @darji's trying to learn. He's just not particularly good at expressing it.

I don't know either. As much as I am for civil discussions and respecting other human beings regardless of race, sex etc.. I don't think it should be anyones responsibility to Google transgender issues before posting on a video game forum in case you inadvertently offend someone. It's a fairly niche topic that most people, myself included, aren't familiar with. Heck I don't even know what SRS is.

then a bunch of people that have no idea what theyre talking about start parading shit around like its true and if nobody says anything because people like me tend to lurk rather than get all pro active about this stuff because generally we just get shit like the above which says "its a minority issue so why should i have to learn about it BEFORE i inadvertently put people down" and then we say something and its "well how would you expect me to know about this niche issue" and then it just continues with a bunch of people that dont know what they are talking about sitting around wondering why people that arent like them feel upset

I'm not going to talk about it anymore here. In this thread or anywhere else, because it doesn't seem to do any good.

#158 Edited by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@artelinarose:

You're informing people on an individual level, if that helps. (As bland as that sounds. I'm not that good at reassurance.)

#159 Posted by TheHT (11650 posts) -

@trafalgarlaw: I don't think you'll find anyone that'll argue against civility, nor that gender issues no longer exist in the industry. Refocusing on the old tweets alone however can be a dangerous affair. Repeating old arguments without regard for things that have happened since could easily derail more up-to-date discussions, maybe even undoing the headway made for some if things get enough out of hand.

I would not suggest sweeping anything under the rug, but I'd take great care to not dredge up old mentalities while remembering the past, unintentionally unravelling where things are.

#160 Edited by Ravenlight (8040 posts) -
#161 Posted by GreggD (4509 posts) -

@artelinarose: If it makes you feel any better, after I started talking to you and asking questions (in a respectful manner) I ended up incredibly well-informed. And, for what it's worth, I was definitely transphobic before seeking out information and doing my own research. So if nothing else, your information and willingness to broaden people's perspectives on this subject have actually completely turned around someone's point of view. I'd consider that a very good thing.

#162 Edited by Brodehouse (10105 posts) -

@rangers517 said:

So basically to sum this page up, the whole controversy started because in the tweet he used the word "women" instead of "females", even though it was extremely obvious in the context of the situation which he was talking about.

Arguably this whole controversy started because a game studio made a masturbation aid/game/whatever for women, and Patricia Hernandez felt that this was discriminating against women who don't have vaginas. Many people took issue with it, for reasons that I hope don't warrant explanation. Patricia Hernandez lit this fire, Mike Krahulik was the one stupid or unfortunate enough to place his foot in it.

Based on her logic, Stroker discriminated against nullos and transmen and any other men who don't have penises. ... Actually wait no, that masturbation game required a vagina in order to play while anyone can win at Stroker.

#163 Posted by TruthTellah (9387 posts) -

@humanity said:

@video_game_king said:

@hailinel said:

@darji: It's not her responsibility to explain. It's your responsibility to learn, and to ask questions without coming off as insensitive.

I don't know. I'd say @darji's trying to learn. He's just not particularly good at expressing it.

I don't know either. As much as I am for civil discussions and respecting other human beings regardless of race, sex etc.. I don't think it should be anyones responsibility to Google transgender issues before posting on a video game forum in case you inadvertently offend someone. It's a fairly niche topic that most people, myself included, aren't familiar with. Heck I don't even know what SRS is.

then a bunch of people that have no idea what theyre talking about start parading shit around like its true and if nobody says anything because people like me tend to lurk rather than get all pro active about this stuff because generally we just get shit like the above which says "its a minority issue so why should i have to learn about it BEFORE i inadvertently put people down" and then we say something and its "well how would you expect me to know about this niche issue" and then it just continues with a bunch of people that dont know what they are talking about sitting around wondering why people that arent like them feel upset

I'm not going to talk about it anymore here. In this thread or anywhere else, because it doesn't seem to do any good.

Fortunately, I'd say you're doing some good. While you shouldn't need to be someone to inform others, people do seem to listen to you more than they do some others on here.

I think there's real value when you post; though it shouldn't only be about this. I also want to know what you think of JRPGs, DLC, and other topics of the day. ha. We're hopefully all here in a forum to interact with one another, and I certainly appreciate when your voice can get in there. :)

#164 Edited by smcn (926 posts) -

@jeanluc said:

I'm glad that he seems to be taking the first steps to growing as a person. That's a hard thing to admit.

Except he said something similar the first time he got caught making transphobic statements, then proceeded to do it again. Within a few weeks. And I've posted them before in similar threads but this is still my favorite sequence of tweets when that happened:

#165 Posted by TruthTellah (9387 posts) -

@smcn said:

@jeanluc said:

I'm glad that he seems to be taking the first steps to growing as a person. That's a hard thing to admit.

Except he said something similar the first time he got caught making transphobic statements, then proceeded to do it again. Within a few weeks. And I've posted them before in similar threads but this is still my favorite sequence of tweets when that happened:

Obviously, actions will have to show a difference, because words have failed in the past. I think this is the fullest apology and resolution to improve he has made, and I hope he follows through on it.

#166 Posted by Gaff (1845 posts) -

@truthtellah:

Well, since we're trying to drag this back on-topic...

I think it's commendable that Gabe has taken a long, hard look at himself, identified his problem and is trying to solve it. Lashing out verbally whenever you're threatened is a great way to deal with bullies when you're a kid. As is hiding, retreating into your own Fortress of Solitude. Or pretending there's nothing wrong.

But those are not good ways of coping with issues when you're (supposedly) an adult. It's going to be hard to lose those habits, those walls you've built up in all those years.

On the other hand, the real tragedy is probably that to a large group of similarly marginalized and bullied people (gamers), he was a hero. He didn't take shit from anyone, stood his ground, said what he wanted to. The inevitable backlash is going to be that the "Social Justice Warriors" got to him; he's just saying this because he just wants some peace and quiet, but he actually doesn't believe it, still one of us; they might've have gotten to him, but not me! I'll fight the good fight!

And even more tragic: every group that has been marginalized, bullied or stigmatized in the past is doing that exact same thing to other groups. Whether it's nerds, geeks, gamers, women, ethnic minorities, LGBT, cis, whatever: whenever an ill-thought out comment is aired, someone immediately cries foul, rallies the troops and goes on a terrible crusade to fight for their cause. And it's always their fault. Because being considerate of other people is censorship, right? Free speech and all that?

Well, who knows, you might even find out, you might find out (as Gabe did), you inadvertently hurt someone close to you.

That being said, I wanted to let you know that, when I read your words, it makes me instantly uncomfortable, because I wonder what you think of me. My thought and impression was that we were on good grounds, and I appreciated all the kind words you sent my way. But when I wasn’t around, did you talk about me as a guy in drag? Those are the sorts of questions and insecurities that filter into my mind.

Credit: Sophie Prell, games journalist and transgender.

God, this must be the corniest / sincerest thing I've written. I feel dirty.

#167 Edited by TruthTellah (9387 posts) -

@gaff: Yeah, I remember him discussing Sophie Prell, and it's unfortunate that it took even more for him to eventually say something like this and really make some changes. Though, better later than never.

I hope many people realize that his comments here seem to be about more than just what he has said on Twitter or in comics. What he is describing is a personal failing that has not only hurt him in his public interactions but also private ones. It's hard for any flaw like this not to impact those closest to you, and it sounds like he sees now how he hurt them over the years.

Even if someone does not agree with why he was criticized on Twitter or what have you, he is making a statement about himself that I think more of us should consider. You don't have to be public about it like he has, but honestly looking at yourself and trying to see where you have issues is a mature thing to do. We are who we are, but we can grow as people as we age. I am a person in progress, and I hope that I am progressing forward and not sliding backward in every area of my life. Obviously, that is difficult, and frankly, I will not always live up to that. I have my own flaws which still plague me, and I can only hope to assess them honestly and pursue improvement over time. Because I care about who I am as a person, and I care about the people who I interact with.

I think it's reasonable to be less than convinced in Gabe's sincerity, thanks in part to his repeated words with little result, but I believe we can still have some hope. I hope he really is committed to improving how he treats others, and if he is, I will be glad to see it benefit him personally and improve the time he has with all the people that know him.

And, ha. I can appreciate some sincerity, Gaff. I'm that way, and you know, it's alright!

#168 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@humanity said:

@video_game_king said:

@hailinel said:

@darji: It's not her responsibility to explain. It's your responsibility to learn, and to ask questions without coming off as insensitive.

I don't know. I'd say @darji's trying to learn. He's just not particularly good at expressing it.

I don't know either. As much as I am for civil discussions and respecting other human beings regardless of race, sex etc.. I don't think it should be anyones responsibility to Google transgender issues before posting on a video game forum in case you inadvertently offend someone. It's a fairly niche topic that most people, myself included, aren't familiar with. Heck I don't even know what SRS is.

then a bunch of people that have no idea what theyre talking about start parading shit around like its true and if nobody says anything because people like me tend to lurk rather than get all pro active about this stuff because generally we just get shit like the above which says "its a minority issue so why should i have to learn about it BEFORE i inadvertently put people down" and then we say something and its "well how would you expect me to know about this niche issue" and then it just continues with a bunch of people that dont know what they are talking about sitting around wondering why people that arent like them feel upset

I'm not going to talk about it anymore here. In this thread or anywhere else, because it doesn't seem to do any good.

He did not know that he was insulting someone. He said something people insulted and attacked him heavily for and he had no idea why. What would you have done in such a situation. Also it was just twitter. We can not take anything too serious on such a platform. Too many times resulted a tweet already in something horrible and a lot of outrage just because people take these way too serious. Yes it is not your Job to inform the whole world. But if someones opinion is important to you, you should explain this to him/her so they can understand and learn. Attacking people is just not the right way to make people even want to understand.

Look at me. I did not know that his comment was not harmless either. But I am trying to understand now. People are making mistakes and Gabe is really trying to amend for his mistakes at least that is what I am getting from his letter.

Also I am sorry for the things I said uninformed as I am and I hope you understand that all of my comments never were ill intend in any possible way.

But yeah back to topic...

#169 Posted by Humanity (9818 posts) -

@humanity said:

@video_game_king said:

@hailinel said:

@darji: It's not her responsibility to explain. It's your responsibility to learn, and to ask questions without coming off as insensitive.

I don't know. I'd say @darji's trying to learn. He's just not particularly good at expressing it.

I don't know either. As much as I am for civil discussions and respecting other human beings regardless of race, sex etc.. I don't think it should be anyones responsibility to Google transgender issues before posting on a video game forum in case you inadvertently offend someone. It's a fairly niche topic that most people, myself included, aren't familiar with. Heck I don't even know what SRS is.

then a bunch of people that have no idea what theyre talking about start parading shit around like its true and if nobody says anything because people like me tend to lurk rather than get all pro active about this stuff because generally we just get shit like the above which says "its a minority issue so why should i have to learn about it BEFORE i inadvertently put people down" and then we say something and its "well how would you expect me to know about this niche issue" and then it just continues with a bunch of people that dont know what they are talking about sitting around wondering why people that arent like them feel upset

I'm not going to talk about it anymore here. In this thread or anywhere else, because it doesn't seem to do any good.

I understand this is a hard topic that many misunderstand or even mock, which I assume is why you're so hostile when discussing it. I'm sorry I wrote all that "shit" and offended you, but I think you might have misunderstood me. The sad truth is that a lot of people don't know about these issues and they aren't likely to seek this information out on their own. It really is on you to inform others when you see something misrepresentative being said and educate them so they in turn can educate others. I'm not advocating that people should be ignorantly spouting nonsense about topics they don't understand and inadvertently hurting others along the way - but you can't honestly think that angrily telling people they're full of shit and should educate themselves because it's not your responsibility to cure their ignorance is doing anyone any good.

Likewise I'm not coming back to this issue in this thread. I'm more than happy to discuss it elsewhere or in PM's if you care enough to continue the conversation as I'm not trying to put you down or anything - I just honestly believe that you need to educate people on these matters and what better people to do it than the ones that are closest to them. Hopefully Gabe is similarly educating himself to avoid hurtful situations in the future.

#170 Posted by ArtelinaRose (1856 posts) -

No, I am sorry, I am coming across as hostile. They doubled my dosages and I'm basically a crazy person right now because my hormones are craaazzyyyyy and I haven't adjusted yet. It's part of why I haven't been posting much lately.

#171 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

For a thread about somebody setting out to be more compassionate, things sure did get aggressive quickly.

#172 Posted by TruthTellah (9387 posts) -

No, I am sorry, I am coming across as hostile. They doubled my dosages and I'm basically a crazy person right now because my hormones are craaazzyyyyy and I haven't adjusted yet. It's part of why I haven't been posting much lately.

Don't worry about it! Everyone's apologizing because we're polite folks. I'm glad you've chimed in, and even a little off topic, it's still a conversation well worth having.

#173 Posted by TruthTellah (9387 posts) -

For a thread about somebody setting out to be more compassionate, things sure did get aggressive quickly.

#175 Edited by Milkman (17168 posts) -

Here's the bottom line. If you don't know anything about transgender issues, don't talk about transgender issues in a public forum. If you don't know anything about quantum physics, don't talk about quantum physics in a public forum. There's no shame in not knowing things. But if you're going to engage in these kind of conversation, it absolutely IS your responsibility to educate yourself.

#176 Edited by Slag (4715 posts) -

@milkman said:

Here's the bottom line. If you don't know anything about transgender issues, don't talk about transgender issues in a public forum. If you don't know anything about quantum physics, don't talk about quantum physics in a public forum. There's no shame in not knowing things. But if you're going to engage in these kind of conversation, it absolutely IS your responsibility to educate yourself.

I don't know if I agree with that. While it certainly be ideal someone educates themselves before engaging in a discussion about topics like those, different people learn differently and if they can't participate in those kinds of discussions they may never really learn about those subjects.

But certainly if you are unknowledgeable about a subject, you definitely should not act as though you are. You should also not assume your opinion on the matter is as valid as someone's who is. Of course if you discover you are wrong, you should be quick to admit it without qualifications as well.

If more people did those three simple things it would stop a large number of pointlessly unproductive internet fights.

#177 Edited by TrafalgarLaw (1195 posts) -

@milkman said:

Here's the bottom line. If you don't know anything about transgender issues, don't talk about transgender issues in a public forum.

That's dangerous territory, we humans have the ability to put ourselves in other's shoes and imagine how things would have worked out for us. That's why opinions get dismissed as "what would you know?". That's what pisses me off the most about some conversations, those that want change exclude those from which change should come from.

If Gabe was running for president, I'd understand the backlash. I understand he runs a big show at PAX and has a big following, but he is a mere human who cannot be expected to be knowledgeable (educated is a condenscending verb) about all of the issues in society. He apoligized but I wonder how much of it was due to pressure from outside.

Online
#178 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@milkman said:

Here's the bottom line. If you don't know anything about transgender issues, don't talk about transgender issues in a public forum.

I do not agree with that. We should be able to discuss and talk about it openly otherwise it becomes just a taboo topic. And with all the hostility, people are getting afraid to even talk about it in any form. It should not be an "exclusive" club in which people are being allowed to talk about and other people do not. If they are wrong it is the job of the other people in this conversation no matter if Transgender or not to politely correct them without attack or personal insult that person. That was also the problem with Gabe ,Instead of actually explaining it to him he got insulted and attacked for not knowing better.

He really is no bad guy and he also gives away tons of money for charity as well. It is just that most people do not think about every consequence when they write or talk about it. And I am also do not think this would be a good thing since people would be way more afraid to talk in the first place.

#179 Edited by TruthTellah (9387 posts) -

@trafalgarlaw said:

@milkman said:

Here's the bottom line. If you don't know anything about transgender issues, don't talk about transgender issues in a public forum.

That's dangerous territory, we humans have the ability to put ourselves in other's shoes and imagine how things would have worked out for us. That's why opinions get dismissed as "what would you know?". That's what pisses me off the most about some conversations, those that want change exclude those from which change should come from.

If Gabe was running for president, I'd understand the backlash. I understand he runs a big show at PAX and has a big following, but he is a mere human who cannot be expected to be knowledgeable (educated is a condenscending verb) about all of the issues in society. He apoligized but I wonder how much of it was due to pressure from outside.

I think @slag mentioned a decent point about this. Certainly discuss topics like this, as many things are important to talk about, but if you are not knowledgeable in something, don't act like you are. And if you talk with someone who is knowledgeable in something, try to listen. The big point with Gabe's apology and resolve to do better is a personal realization that he was overly defensive, treating any critics as enemies and any corrections as affronts, and as he says, despite admittedly not knowing much on the subject, he doubled down on his words anyway. That was what became so problematic.

Many people make mistakes; that's normal. What's harmful is when you make mistakes and, when called on it, you aren't willing to admit that there's a chance you are indeed mistaken. It's a very common issue in online discussion, and Gabe fell into the same trap that many people do. Not only that, he wasn't willing to listen, and he actually turned on the offensive, treating others like they were simply enemies. As he points out, that's been an issue for much of his life; when confronted with criticism, whether online or personally, he simply couldn't accept it. He equated all criticism with bullying of -him-, and he in turn bullied those who might voice criticism. In feeling like he was protecting himself, he acted like the very thing he always wanted to fight.

He isn't the first man to realize this, and he won't be the last. Realizing something like this and resolving to improve themselves is something many people do as they get older, experience more, and learn more. Most don't really make big public statements about it, but it's his blog. And he's allowed to do that if he feels it's right. What's most important is the fact that this is a personal choice for not only the sake of others, but also for his sake. Most people don't want to hurt others, especially those they care about, and if someone can't take personal criticism or they can't control themselves when they get angry or defensive, that's a problem which affects everyone in his life, not just random people online.

He says he wants to be a better man, and I genuinely hope he'll be able to act like one in the future. Obviously, it's easier said than done, and he has made many promises in the past. Yet, I would rather believe he is sincere here, because, frankly, I've liked him and what he has worked on from time to time over the years. I think it's a shame that some issues continued to hinder him, and I can hope for his sake that he follows through on this. He'll likely be happier, and at least, he'll perhaps do less damage to others and himself than he would have before. I think that's achievable, and I appreciate him pursuing it. I wish him the best of luck.

#180 Posted by hinderk (690 posts) -
@darji said:

@milkman said:

Here's the bottom line. If you don't know anything about transgender issues, don't talk about transgender issues in a public forum.

I do not agree with that. We should be able to discuss and talk about it openly otherwise it becomes just a taboo topic. And with all the hostility, people are getting afraid to even talk about it in any form. It should not be an "exclusive" club in which people are being allowed to talk about and other people do not. If they are wrong it is the job of the other people in this conversation no matter if Transgender or not to politely correct them without attack or personal insult that person. That was also the problem with Gabe ,Instead of actually explaining it to him he got insulted and attacked for not knowing better.

He really is no bad guy and he also gives away tons of money for charity as well. It is just that most people do not think about every consequence when they write or talk about it. And I am also do not think this would be a good thing since people would be way more afraid to talk in the first place.

It isn't anyone's "job" to educate anyone. If you decide to speak on a topic and end up offending people, it is your fault for not educating yourself before you talked. I usually try educate people in these subject matters but it is because I want to, not because I am obligated to.

Also the first time people did try explaining it to him. I believe he even had a skype conversation with one of the people criticizing him. A lot of people thought that he learned what he did wrong. Then two weeks later he started saying many of the same things he said the first time.

#181 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@hinderk said:

It isn't anyone's "job" to educate anyone.

What about teachers?

#182 Posted by jimmyfenix (3859 posts) -

I still do not know why or how Mike Krahulik turns to Gabe.

#183 Posted by TheHT (11650 posts) -

I still do not know why or how Mike Krahulik turns to Gabe.

That's his analog in the comic.

#185 Posted by Clonedzero (4200 posts) -

good for him for wanting to improve his PR skills, because thats what this is. The whole saga around him making dumb comments and people freaking the fuck out about it is hilarious to me. I remember a few months ago he said something about "women have vaginas" and then a bunch of people were like "the LGBT community just wants to feel safe at PAX!" the fuck? how does him making a true statement albeit a tad insensitive in the context he used it in translate to PAX not being safe for them to visit?

This whole thing is a joke. Both sides. Its funny though so please continue.

#186 Posted by hinderk (690 posts) -

@video_game_king: 99% sure you're joking, but I meant that it isn't anyone's job to educate other people on their race, sexual orientation, gender identity, ect. Obviously it is a teacher's job to teach their students.

#187 Edited by joshwent (2321 posts) -

@clonedzero said:

good for him for wanting to improve his PR skills, because thats what this is.

Do you have to contextualize it like that to make sense of the situation? Did you read his letter, and honestly think, "Yep. He doesn't mean any of what he just said"? I agree with you that all of the dumb arguing was due to blatant misunderstandings, but Gabe is saying that he helped escalate those situations, and he hopes to stop. A perspective that I don't think is a "joke"at all.

#188 Edited by DonPixel (2595 posts) -
this thing has reach soap opera levels of drama, kind of amusing

#189 Edited by ArtelinaRose (1856 posts) -

@hinderk said:
@darji said:

@milkman said:

Here's the bottom line. If you don't know anything about transgender issues, don't talk about transgender issues in a public forum.

I do not agree with that. We should be able to discuss and talk about it openly otherwise it becomes just a taboo topic. And with all the hostility, people are getting afraid to even talk about it in any form. It should not be an "exclusive" club in which people are being allowed to talk about and other people do not. If they are wrong it is the job of the other people in this conversation no matter if Transgender or not to politely correct them without attack or personal insult that person. That was also the problem with Gabe ,Instead of actually explaining it to him he got insulted and attacked for not knowing better.

He really is no bad guy and he also gives away tons of money for charity as well. It is just that most people do not think about every consequence when they write or talk about it. And I am also do not think this would be a good thing since people would be way more afraid to talk in the first place.

It isn't anyone's "job" to educate anyone. If you decide to speak on a topic and end up offending people, it is your fault for not educating yourself before you talked. I usually try educate people in these subject matters but it is because I want to, not because I am obligated to.

Also the first time people did try explaining it to him. I believe he even had a skype conversation with one of the people criticizing him. A lot of people thought that he learned what he did wrong. Then two weeks later he started saying many of the same things he said the first time.

I WISH I got paid to tell people that "tranny", "ladyboy", "shemale" etc are all INCREDIBLY rude. It'd be way more interesting than my actual job and I'd probably be making some sort of a difference. I mean, you'd think it'd be common sense, but...

#190 Posted by Clonedzero (4200 posts) -

@joshwent said:

@clonedzero said:

good for him for wanting to improve his PR skills, because thats what this is.

Do you have to contextualize it like that to make sense of the situation? Did you read his letter, and honestly think, "Yep. He doesn't mean any of what he just said"? I agree with you that all of the dumb arguing was due to blatant misunderstandings, but Gabe is saying that he helped escalate those situations, and he hopes to stop. A perspective that I don't think is a "joke"at all.

Well exactly. He wants to stop pissing people off because its hurting his professional reputation and business. Thus he's going to learn how to not blurt shit out.

I just find it hilarious people seem to have picked THIS as their battleground for social justice. People brutally beating trans people near to death? Nah, no biggy. An internet personality making mildly insensitive comments? GET THE TORCHES!

#191 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

I just find it hilarious people seem to have picked THIS as their battleground for social justice. People brutally beating trans people near to death? Nah, no biggy. An internet personality making mildly insensitive comments? GET THE TORCHES!

You say that like everybody complaining about this was offered a choice between "trans people beating" and "mildly insensitive comments", and consciously picked the latter.

#192 Posted by Brodehouse (10105 posts) -

I still do not know why or how Mike Krahulik turns to Gabe.

How doth a Jerry Parkinson become a 16th century Dutch astronomer?

#193 Edited by LackingSaint (1845 posts) -

Though my example is much more mild than Gabe's, I did go through a similar realization a few weeks ago, sadly losing friends and fans because I started calling out a certain social justice group I had a problem with on Tumblr and called someone a "c*nt" when I was called out on it. Like Gabe I apologised; first publicly, then to each person involved individually, then deleted the offensive messages and made a donation to an anti-abuse charity. I know I can't take back what I said and (if anything ever comes of my animations) that'll always be a black spot on the way i'm perceived by some people, but it was nice to make my apologies and try to make amends. Hopefully he starts to see that too.

#194 Posted by joshwent (2321 posts) -
#195 Edited by Slag (4715 posts) -

I still do not know why or how Mike Krahulik turns to Gabe.

Well if I remember correctly they created the characters Gabe and Tycho first And they were intended to be unique characters different from themselves (and if you read the old old PA strips, 97-98 ish or so, they are really different in tone and style and of course they look very different from their creators), and then over the first couple years they realized they basically were starting to write as avatars of themselves. So they rolled with it. When PA started to be a thing and they realized they could do it as a full-time job, they just kinda said I'm Gabe etc.

#196 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@hinderk: Yes it is not your Job to "educate" people because that would be wrong. Educate makes it looks like we are all dumb and need to be educated just like Children. How about talk or explain. A normal conversation should be more than enough for people who actually want to understand. And for the rest just ignore them instead of attack and insult them.

@artelinarose Oh I can totally see this with these words. I for example also get extreme annoyed if someone is using the word "jap" since it is incredible racist. And even if you try to explain this to people they do not listen.

In these discussion I also think the word cis no matter if it is the correct definition or not is extreme hostile, since it is mostly used to put people down or used as an insult in these conversations. I think both sides need to understand or to try not to be as hostile as it is right now. But I am more talking about the difference between sex and gender and all the more "complicated" stuff most people do not know about because it does not affect them at all.

#197 Posted by Slag (4715 posts) -

Though my example is much more mild than Gabe's, I did go through a similar realization a few weeks ago, sadly losing friends and fans because I started calling out a certain social justice group I had a problem with on Tumblr and called someone a "c*nt" when I was called out on it. Like Gabe I apologised; first publicly, then to each person involved individually, then deleted the offensive messages and made a donation to an anti-abuse charity. I know I can't take back what I said and (if anything ever comes of my animations) that'll always be a black spot on the way i'm perceived by some people, but it was nice to make my apologies and try to make amends. Hopefully he starts to see that too.

damn duder.

Well props to you for owning your mistake man. And I do hope people forgive you, sounds to me you've gone the extra mile to make amends. Nobody's perfect duder, we are all just trying to get better one day at a time. We're all better off if we realize that. No one wins in a world of no second chances.

Especially in this era of instant everywhere access of social media, slips of the tongue and errors in judgement cost so much more than they used to and cost more than they probably should in most most cases.

#198 Posted by hinderk (690 posts) -

@darji: Doesn't matter what word you want to use. People aren't obligated to educate, talk, explain or correct people on their ignorance. If someone says something offensive it is their fault, not others for not explaining things to them.

#199 Posted by joshwent (2321 posts) -

@hinderk said:

Doesn't matter what word you want to use. People aren't obligated to educate, talk, explain or correct people on their ignorance. If someone says something offensive it is their fault, not others for not explaining things to them.

I don't think you're understanding his point. There is a world of difference between people using language to hurt others, and people who unwittingly use language that hurts others. For example: if someone is referring to a trans woman in a normal, completely not malicious way, but uses the pronoun "he", it could certainly be offensive, but the correct reaction isn't, "Look at that insensitive transphobic jerk!".

It's a situation that does call for "eduacation". Not a long explanation about sex vs. gender and incorrect societal perceptions. But education in terms of just letting the person know, "I'm a woman, and I would appreciate if you didn't refer to me as "he" ".

#200 Edited by LackingSaint (1845 posts) -

@slag said:

@lackingsaint said:

Though my example is much more mild than Gabe's, I did go through a similar realization a few weeks ago, sadly losing friends and fans because I started calling out a certain social justice group I had a problem with on Tumblr and called someone a "c*nt" when I was called out on it. Like Gabe I apologised; first publicly, then to each person involved individually, then deleted the offensive messages and made a donation to an anti-abuse charity. I know I can't take back what I said and (if anything ever comes of my animations) that'll always be a black spot on the way i'm perceived by some people, but it was nice to make my apologies and try to make amends. Hopefully he starts to see that too.

damn duder.

Well props to you for owning your mistake man. And I do hope people forgive you, sounds to me you've gone the extra mile to make amends. Nobody's perfect duder, we are all just trying to get better one day at a time. We're all better off if we realize that. No one wins in a world of no second chances.

Especially in this era of instant everywhere access of social media, slips of the tongue and errors in judgement cost so much more than they used to and cost more than they probably should in most most cases.

Thanks man, I really appreciate the pep-talk! It's definitely made me think a lot about how quickly judgements can be made online and how easy it can be to completely ruin how people see you. Glad I realised that before finding a larger audience.