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#1 Edited by Metal_Mills (2986 posts) -

https://medium.com/the-magazine/1b56d8c8a1fb

Haha, just joking...oh wait...

- "2013 Tomb Raider isn’t just a very good game, it’s a historically important one."

- "And I know from 28 years of watching the industry that no one will pay serious attention to 2013 Tomb Raider as a game-of-the-year (GOTY) contender, no matter the site or publication. In an industry where men fund the games, develop the games, publish the games, and—most importantly here—review the games, observations like these simply go unheard."

- "their consciousness on why games like 2013 Tomb Raiderare important remains extremely low, as you might expect from a crowd of men sitting around discussing the games they love."

Sorry Jeff, you sexist pig, your opinion is INVALID as a man! Get your dive kick shit OUTTA HERE cause Tomb Raider is like the Rosa Parks of the feminist movement.

#2 Posted by Animasta (14667 posts) -

did... did she not see gone home on the list?

#3 Edited by YOU_DIED (702 posts) -

A+ trolling on their part. Tomb Raider is a mediocre game with high production values.

#4 Edited by Ezakael (930 posts) -

They have a different opinion than hers? SEXIST PIGS!

Games should be on a GOTY list because the person personally enjoyed the game. If every game that was "historically important" had to be on everyone's GOTY list. The lists would be pretty damn boring.

#5 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4672 posts) -

@animasta said:

did... did she not see gone home on the list?

Sshhh. She's making a point. There's no need to bring facts into this.

#6 Posted by triviaman09 (799 posts) -

This thread is going to be an awful slimepit.

#7 Posted by omghisam (284 posts) -

That's a lame flamebaity of summarizing her article.

#8 Edited by HatKing (5876 posts) -

Personally, I do think Tomb Raider is one of the best games of the year (maybe the best?). I kind of agree with that first quote. Having said that, I don't think they can really pull the sexist card when another game [prominently] featuring a strong female character won the game of the year.

But what do I know, I also kind of thought DmC Devil May Cry was great.

#9 Edited by Metal_Mills (2986 posts) -

@omghisam said:

That's a lame flamebaity of summarizing her article.

The GB part of the article is summarized as "Tomb Raider is amazing because it features a historically strong women. They didn't like the gameplay but who cares? Should be GOTY but what should I expect from a bunch of men?". The entire thing is nothing but click bait.

#10 Posted by slyspider (1189 posts) -

Disgusting article. I think tomb raider was one of the best games this year, but not because the main char was a female. Incredibly stupid people still have access to the internet I guess.

#11 Posted by Animasta (14667 posts) -

@omghisam said:

That's a lame flamebaity of summarizing her article.

it's really not. The article is kind of bad and they're attacking GB for not liking tomb raider enough, which is what it boils down to. I really liked Tomb Raider but it's still a bad article that jumps around points with reckless abandon.

#12 Edited by xaLieNxGrEyx (2605 posts) -

@you_died said:

A+ trolling on their part. Tomb Raider is a mediocre game with a high production quality.

This duder speaks the truth

#13 Posted by xaLieNxGrEyx (2605 posts) -

@hatking said:

Personally, I do think Tomb Raider is one of the best games of the year (maybe the best?). I kind of agree with that first quote. Having said that, I don't think they can really pull the sexist card when another game [prominently] featuring a strong female character won the game of the year.

But what do I know, I also kind of thought DmC Devil May Cry was great.

DmC is great, Tomb Raider not so much.

#14 Posted by Flacracker (1642 posts) -

As mentioned in this thread, Patrick fills the role of representing the female perspective pretty well. He didn't even stick up for Tomb Raider. I just got Tomb Raider on the Steam sale and am playing it now. It seems cool I guess.

#15 Posted by Animasta (14667 posts) -

@xalienxgreyx: I disagree, TR was amazing (and DmC was pretty good too)

#16 Posted by l4wd0g (1931 posts) -

It wasn't super offensive until you compared Tomb Raider to Rosa Parks.

#17 Posted by McLargepants (369 posts) -

That's craziness. They didn't like the gameplay, so it wasn't recognized. It's not like they said, Tomb Raider, a game that has always starred a woman will not be on this list because it starred a strong, confident woman. And then it ignores that several of their top games feature woman prominently and favorably. But oh well, clickbait at its worst.

#18 Posted by aurahack (2270 posts) -

I like that they remove the context for the initial quote from Jeff, where he was referring to the first time they showed the game to press and not the final product. (Which, mind you, that sequence was in the end of the game but that quote was specific to his feeling on the first "gameplay" reveal of that game and not the final thing.)

Also Tomb Raider's okay and all but for as clickbait as that whole article is... isn't it still kinda pushing it, a little? I thought the characters in that game were all pretty throwaway/flat.

#19 Edited by omghisam (284 posts) -

Her argument wasn't GB is sexist for not liking TR it's that there are few women in the room during goty discussions.minority opinions aren't considered, so it's a systemic problem not particular to just Jeff and the gang. Maybe allow for nuisance in other peoples arguments without jumping to grab your pitchforks to defend vidyagames.

Also this isn't clickbait because it's a medium article without ads. At worst it's just an opinion piece you may not agree with.

#20 Posted by Milkman (16619 posts) -

For the record, Tomb Raider should have been on the GOTY list because it's an awesome game.

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#21 Posted by LiquidPrince (15901 posts) -

I know this is a joke and all, but the way Brad talked about the game was a bit annoying. Brushed it off with something along the lines of "I have no love for that game looking back on it" which is weird because he seemed fairly into it near release. But whatever. I wish Alex had fought for it a bit since he seemed to like it.

#22 Edited by Stete (729 posts) -

Tomb Raider was a good game and one of my best for the year. It was one of the 4-5 games this year that kept me interested to actually play to completion. The gameplay was solid and the graphics looked fantastic, especially on PC but it am not suprised at all why I didn't win any awards.

First of all, the story was forgettable as hell. The only characters I can remember are Laura, drunken old scotsman, the mentor character, disposable friends of Laura and lots of crazy people trying to kill you. There was something about a japanese queen/priest but that was pushed into the background.

Second, the gameplay although solid and really fun (and aeons better than Uncharted), it was all stuff that was done before. Also, the sheer unwillingness to put some variety of enemies is baffling. In previous Tomb Raiders you fought wolves, spiders, bears, dinosaurs, skeletons, you name it. Here you fight angry dudes, japanese angry dudes and one giant dude in the end.

More importantly, remember when people got fed up with Call of Duty? How about Guitar Hero? Tony Hawk? Well, Tomb Raider did franchise fatique before Acitvision thought it was cool, and people still remember that. Coming up with an fresh entry into the series and thinking that people will instantly forget the regurgitated mess of it's numerous predecessors is just way to wishful thinking.

#23 Posted by Brodehouse (9791 posts) -

This reminds me of when the PS4 was announced and Liz Deloria said that since there were no female presenters, this was misogyny on Sony's part.

I'm sure this is different now, since now it's targeting people we like.

#24 Posted by ShadowConqueror (3050 posts) -

Giant Bomb has an all male staff, they must be sexist .

#25 Edited by joshwent (2157 posts) -

That article is a masterclass in false correlation and ignorant presumptions. Full of far more offensive judgement than I've ever heard from any of the "male journalists" she decries.

Saying that she understands why GB is all guys, because her studio is all women, but then still implying they need some female perspective is jaw-droppingly frustrating. Why do the progressive idealists have to be dicks too?

#26 Posted by xaLieNxGrEyx (2605 posts) -

@animasta said:

@xalienxgreyx: I disagree, TR was amazing (and DmC was pretty good too)

I thought it was an Uncharted rip-off with an awful story and underdeveloped characters, tried to be dark and serious and only ended being immature and humorous, that played kind of ok.

#27 Posted by darkwingduck (174 posts) -

lets just make Tomb Raider Legend goty and get on with it

#28 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

Wait Tomb Raider? The game these people called torture porn and a game which makes men enjoy when Women are in pain and moaning all day long? Oh man I really do not get these people.....

That said Tomb Raider was a good game and much better than the old ones at least for me. But 2013 was also a strong year for games so I can see how it did not end on many GOTY lists.

#29 Edited by AlKusanagi (915 posts) -

It's because they were waiting for the upcoming, superior, clean faces version, which will obviously take GOTY 2014.

#30 Edited by Yummylee (21475 posts) -
@animasta said:

@xalienxgreyx: I disagree, TR was amazing (and DmC was pretty good too)

The gameplay's pretty fun, but I thought the story was complete kack, and that the characters in particular were boring and utterly forgettable. Even Lara I thought was a rather dull character and wasn't especially well acted, though that moment at the end where she duel-wields pistols was pretty awesome.

Also, the article is a joke ect. I mean it has to be... right?

#31 Edited by minivan (185 posts) -

/

#32 Edited by Morningstar (2149 posts) -

I loved it, and I',m a man. It comes pretty high on my list. It's no Etrian Odyssey 4 though.

#33 Posted by 8Bit_Archer (452 posts) -

I thought Tomb Raider was great. So Jeff and Brad didn't think it GOTY material, that doesn't mean they are sexiest. It means that they didn't like the Goddamn game. JESUS CHRIST!

#34 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@minivan: I really can not tell if you are serious or not. "historically important one" ? give me break.

#35 Posted by LiquidPrince (15901 posts) -

@yummylee: It seemed fairly obvious by its tone that it was trying to be sincere. Although I don't agree with some of it. For example, I still find it incredibly stupid when people level complaints against Dragon's Crowns female characters while also citing equality in the same article. The women look absurd, just as all the men do. My favorite character was the Elf, but not because she was the most "normal" looking, but because she looked the coolest to me. I also liked the Sorceress and the ridiculous looking Knight...

#36 Edited by Disaya (288 posts) -

@liquidprince said:

I know this is a joke and all, but the way Brad talked about the game was a bit annoying. Brushed it off with something along the lines of "I have no love for that game looking back on it" which is weird because he seemed fairly into it near release. But whatever. I wish Alex had fought for it a bit since he seemed to like it.

Yeah I thought for the most part GB crew really enjoyed that game but maybe I'm remembering wrong.

But anyways if they didn't like it as much as they thought they did then whatever, a lot of good games came out this year and opinions change but I don't understand how that makes them sexist.

#37 Edited by Yummylee (21475 posts) -

@liquidprince: I know it isn't actually a joke article, it was just a way to comment on how absurd it is.

#38 Posted by LiquidPrince (15901 posts) -

@yummylee said:

@liquidprince: I know it isn't actually a joke article, it was just a way to comment on how absurd it is.

No, I got what you were getting at. I was commenting on its absurd sincerity. Dragon's Crown man...

#39 Posted by Disaya (288 posts) -

I thought Tomb Raider was great. So Jeff and Brad didn't think it GOTY material, that doesn't mean they are sexiest. It means that they didn't like the Goddamn game. JESUS CHRIST!

But they are the sexiest! sorry......

#40 Edited by Blu3V3nom07 (4187 posts) -

It seems to me that they didn't even consider letting Lara Croft on to the GoTY bus. They didn't even notice driving past her, her waving as she just wanted to sit down and enjoy the non-Dota scenery, and watch the beautiful tire-mountain aflame.

#41 Edited by GrantHeaslip (1560 posts) -

The craziest (edit: okay, maybe not craziest, but pretty bizarre) part of that article is that it's contingent on the idea that Tomb Raider had great writing, and it really didn't. Lara was a likeable character, but she underwent a bizarrely fast transition from freaking out to burning everything to the ground, and pretty much all of the rest of the script was middling at best. The supporting characters were forgettable, and the story built to a ridiculous Uncharted 2-esque climax. I played Tomb Raider two weeks ago, and I think I've already forgotten a lot of the story beats.

Writing aside, I actually liked Tomb Raider a lot. I'd take it over almost every game on Giant Bomb's GOTY list. I think it's a better-playing game than the Uncharted games, and I enjoyed it more than The Last of Us or BioShock Infinite. The traversal in particular felt great and empowering. But all of that praise is despite the writing, not because of it, and it's weird that Wu seems convinced that it deserved to win awards because of some inside-baseball details about its production and not its quality as a video game. I may disagree with their opinions, but I very much doubt the reason Jeff and Brad overlooked Tomb Raider was because of their gender.

Also, what?

And, with respect, if you only have people voting on game of the year from a very singular opinion — generally white, straight and male — it’s missing so much information that it loses its validity.

This article is full of Wu straight-up saying things that people often unfairly accuse other female/progressive writers of thinking. If it wasn't attributed to someone, I might have been convinced it was an elaborate piece of satire. I haven't even touched upon the dredging up of dumb internet comments about GTA V and Dragon's Crown, which has nothing to do with the issue at hand, but serves as a great way for her to implicitly demonize anyone who disagrees with her. The condescending attitude doesn't help either.

#42 Edited by YOU_DIED (702 posts) -

@disaya said:

@8bit_archer said:

I thought Tomb Raider was great. So Jeff and Brad didn't think it GOTY material, that doesn't mean they are sexiest. It means that they didn't like the Goddamn game. JESUS CHRIST!

But they are the sexiest! sorry......

#SexyNotSexist

#43 Posted by GunstarRed (5103 posts) -

lets just make Tomb Raider Legend goty and get on with it

That bit with the dragon-snake-thing in Cornwall was pretty rad.

#45 Edited by Scampbell (496 posts) -

https://medium.com/the-magazine/1b56d8c8a1fb

Haha, just joking...oh wait...

- "2013 Tomb Raider isn’t just a very good game, it’s a historically important one."

- "And I know from 28 years of watching the industry that no one will pay serious attention to 2013 Tomb Raider as a game-of-the-year (GOTY) contender, no matter the site or publication. In an industry where men fund the games, develop the games, publish the games, and—most importantly here—review the games, observations like these simply go unheard."

- "their consciousness on why games like 2013 Tomb Raider are important remains extremely low, as you might expect from a crowd of men sitting around discussing the games they love."

Sorry Jeff, you sexist pig, your opinion is INVALID as a man! Get your dive kick shit OUTTA HERE cause Tomb Raider is like the Rosa Parks of the feminist movement.

- "Jeff Gerstmann, Brad Shoemaker, Colin Moriarty, Greg Miller, Damon Hatfield, Ryan McCaffery, and Marty Sliva: I love your work."

I don't see how this translates to "sexist pig." It just seems like she was a bit disappointed that Tomb Raider was dismissed so quickly, meaning no time to discuss its merits. Maybe a female member of the crew would have meant that, who knows. Though obviously females are no more a homogeneous group than men, she even points this out herself: "Even among my female friends, we have vastly differing opinions about 2013 Tomb Raider. Some of us love Bioshock Infinite; some of us hate it."

Having never played a single Tomb Raider game, I can't really speak to its depiction of Lara Croft, maybe it is a milestone when it comes to female characters in video games. Which would be sad, as from what I've seen, she doesn't really seem like a very interesting character. Ellie from The Last of Us, even though she isn't the lead seems much more interesting to me. Her article isn't great and I feel it lacks coherency. I find it kinda hard to tell exactly what her complaint is, besides the fact that as we all know; there is a lack of women in the industry.

#46 Edited by Random45 (1119 posts) -

It's infuriating to see the sexist card being played here, especially when Giantbomb is probably one of the most pro-feminist gaming websites out there.

Edit: You know what REALLY would have made Tomb Raider 2013 a historically significant game? If they made Sam and Lara have a clearly defined loving relationship. I can't think of a single AAA game that has tackled that subject. Then not ONLY would it be pushing forth bringing more strong female characters into the industry, but it would also be progressive in portraying a gay relationship in a video game, you know, kind of like that other game that everyone LOVES this year.

#47 Posted by joshwent (2157 posts) -

@joshwent said:

@minivan said:

Chill out guys, this is a good, fair point:

"2013 Tomb Raider isn’t just a very good game, it’s a historically important one."

I would've liked to hear the GB crew discuss this even if Tomb Raider still didn't make the best surprise or GOTY lists.

Except... there's nothing historically important about that game. It being a reboot of a well-known character, maybe? But that's clearly not what the author is implying.

Arguing that Tomb Raider is historically important because its lead writer was a woman and they made Lara Croft's boobs smaller is kind of a slap in the face to the over 4 decades of awesome women making games and wonderful female characters that we've already had.

#48 Posted by Kierkegaard (582 posts) -

@omghisam said:

Her argument wasn't GB is sexist for not liking TR it's that there are few women in the room during goty discussions.minority opinions aren't considered, so it's a systemic problem not particular to just Jeff and the gang. Maybe allow for nuisance in other peoples arguments without jumping to grab your pitchforks to defend vidyagames.

Also this isn't clickbait because it's a medium article without ads. At worst it's just an opinion piece you may not agree with.

Precisely. Nuanced criticism of those we respect is being adults, all. I haven't played Tomb Raider, so I can't judge its quality, but it did garner far less discussion than one would think it deserved. The summary of the bombcast and Giant Bomb in the article are fair. Stop looking for reasons to get your dander up. It's okay to question and criticize. It's vital. It's how we progress.

#49 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@grantheaslip: this one is great as well

Dragon’s Crown is a game with ridiculously sexualized characters by anyone’s standards. Want to sell a sword? A nearly naked, ridiculously large-breasted woman hovers in front of you mewing, “What would you like?”

And in the meantime her all female studio makes this game XD

#50 Posted by Dallas_Raines (2146 posts) -

The article is just calling for more voices in the industry beyond 30+ year old white guys, Jeff and Brad weren't villainized.

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