Posted by smokemare (254 posts) -

I've just finished watching the Giant Bomb quick view of GT5.  First of all despite being more of a 360 man at the moment, I've always been a fan of GT games, I had 1 nd 2 on PS1 and 3 on PS2.  Forza 3 is what filled that gap and filled it very nicely I might add.  I never liked the lack of visual damage in GT games.  I watched the whole video, am I going to rush out and buy a PS3 just so I can play it?  In short - no, there was a time when I thought I might, and you could argue GT5 is a more complete game than Forza 3 - you'd probably be right. 
 
What I get from the video though, certainly in comparison to Forza, is that the visuals aren't actually all that amazing, as I understand it a lot of the car list is actually multiple models - as you got with earlier GT games... And the driving dynamics are fine - but nowadays they are fine in many, many games.  So what does GT5 have going for it?  It wants you to think it's the best game since sliced bread and opens up a new era in driving games.  Personally I don't think it will do that.  It seems fine, like an competant driving game, what it does seem to have is a great deal of choice, and in that some things you might argue Forza is missing.  Driving dirt, snow, ice, night time, weather - these are all something it has over Forza.  If both games were on the 360 I guess I'd be tempted - but I wouldn't buy the console for it. 
 
How about the Dunsfold aerodrome Top Gear test track?  Well, that would be nice - I'd love to compare times with the Stig, but I can see a major issue with this.  This will be a very clear indicator of how realistic the claimed 'realistic' driving simulator is.  Let's say we've got half a million people playing GT5 in the Uk, racing against the Stig, you should find that the lap records for different cars match the power laps board.  If it ends up grossly out - then that will indicate that actually the driving dynamics of the cars probably aren't accurate.... 
 
Of course it will be interesting to see how this pans out - maybe I'll be proven wrong and GT5 will be proven beyond a doubt to be the ultimate realistic Driving simulator?  We'll have to wait and see.  

#1 Posted by smokemare (254 posts) -

I've just finished watching the Giant Bomb quick view of GT5.  First of all despite being more of a 360 man at the moment, I've always been a fan of GT games, I had 1 nd 2 on PS1 and 3 on PS2.  Forza 3 is what filled that gap and filled it very nicely I might add.  I never liked the lack of visual damage in GT games.  I watched the whole video, am I going to rush out and buy a PS3 just so I can play it?  In short - no, there was a time when I thought I might, and you could argue GT5 is a more complete game than Forza 3 - you'd probably be right. 
 
What I get from the video though, certainly in comparison to Forza, is that the visuals aren't actually all that amazing, as I understand it a lot of the car list is actually multiple models - as you got with earlier GT games... And the driving dynamics are fine - but nowadays they are fine in many, many games.  So what does GT5 have going for it?  It wants you to think it's the best game since sliced bread and opens up a new era in driving games.  Personally I don't think it will do that.  It seems fine, like an competant driving game, what it does seem to have is a great deal of choice, and in that some things you might argue Forza is missing.  Driving dirt, snow, ice, night time, weather - these are all something it has over Forza.  If both games were on the 360 I guess I'd be tempted - but I wouldn't buy the console for it. 
 
How about the Dunsfold aerodrome Top Gear test track?  Well, that would be nice - I'd love to compare times with the Stig, but I can see a major issue with this.  This will be a very clear indicator of how realistic the claimed 'realistic' driving simulator is.  Let's say we've got half a million people playing GT5 in the Uk, racing against the Stig, you should find that the lap records for different cars match the power laps board.  If it ends up grossly out - then that will indicate that actually the driving dynamics of the cars probably aren't accurate.... 
 
Of course it will be interesting to see how this pans out - maybe I'll be proven wrong and GT5 will be proven beyond a doubt to be the ultimate realistic Driving simulator?  We'll have to wait and see.  

#2 Posted by StaticFalconar (4849 posts) -

For every "sim" racer no matter what console including PC, the sim version will always be faster than real life. Even Gt4 was proven "wrong" in Top Gear when Jeremy Clarkson had done a faster time which he couldn't replicate in real life on the same track and car. Certain things like Brake fade and feeling the Gs in the corners to put to fear of god in you are not simulated accurately. Even the creator of GT5 said it in interviews leading up to the release, that when he took his real life cars to the same track, the car behaved just ever so slightly then in the game. Of course he wanted to delay the game some more until it was just right, but we all know in real life there are deadlines. 

#3 Posted by nintendoeats (5975 posts) -
@StaticFalconar: In that scenario isn't there also the issue of the idiosyncrasies of a specific vehicle? I suppose somebody who loves cars so much probably accounts for those things, but its not unreasonable to assume that two cares of identical design will be built, or age, in ever-so-slightly different ways.
#4 Posted by pweidman (2297 posts) -

These expectations for driving simulators to actually match reality are silly.  I guess it's natural to want to fantasize how close the driving is simulated, but these are games that approximate(a much more accurate word than simulate)performance and handling, and sometimes not very closely, to real life cars.  But these are games, and as games must do, they have to meet the goals of being fun and engaging games that people will buy and enjoy.  Especially moreso for console releases. 
 
As far as for GT5, by all accounts, it's definitely not a genre defining game.  More like another GT game that's quirky, but super deep, loaded with variety, and a game the fans will thoroughly enjoy for years even perhaps.  It looks like the slow burn and long learning could be very addictive...I wish I could play the game w/o having to buy a PS3 to do so.

#5 Posted by smokemare (254 posts) -
@pweidman said:
" These expectations for driving simulators to actually match reality are silly.  I guess it's natural to want to fantasize how close the driving is simulated, but these are games that approximate(a much more accurate word than simulate)performance and handling, and sometimes not very closely, to real life cars.  But these are games, and as games must do, they have to meet the goals of being fun and engaging games that people will buy and enjoy.  Especially moreso for console releases. 
 
As far as for GT5, by all accounts, it's definitely not a genre defining game.  More like another GT game that's quirky, but super deep, loaded with variety, and a game the fans will thoroughly enjoy for years even perhaps.  It looks like the slow burn and long learning could be very addictive...I wish I could play the game w/o having to buy a PS3 to do so. "
I second that - I'd probably buy it if I didn't have to get a PS3.  I guess the issue is with GT5 as being touted as realistic, possibly creates unachievable expectations in terms of realism.  Then having the Top Gear test track on it - allowing people to benchmark themselve, their times and their cars against the real-life Stig might expose that touted realism as not being that real at all.  It will be really interesting to see how the PS3 Network Leaderboard compares to the Top Gear Powerlaps board after 6 months!   Has anyone got a link to the PS3 leaderboard for the top gear track?  SO I could see how it's shaping up so far?
#6 Posted by FrankCanada97 (4039 posts) -
@smokemare: There aren't any leaderboards, apparently that is getting patched in at a later date in the form of an update.
#7 Posted by nickux (1383 posts) -

I would certainly love to put my times against the Stig, which is pretty much the main reason I'm going to check out GT5. I'm not very much into sim games and the closest thing I get to a driving game involves Mario and a kart. But I'm willing to give GT5 a chance simply because I want to see how realistic it feels and beat ol' Stiggy. 
 
Some say he knows two facts about ducks and both of them are wrong. 
 
I won't go into this game expecting it to justify its long development time. No game will ever be perfect. Somebody needs to let Polyphony Digital and the trolls during the QL live chat know this. 

#8 Posted by jayjonesjunior (1086 posts) -

wait for a proper site to review the GT5 and by proper i mean an exclusive simracing website (i did the same for Forza 3).
 
i'll be racing with my G25 and all assist off, i wouldn't trust a regular game reviewer for something like that. 
(unless, of course you pretend to go full arcade style)

#9 Posted by zudthespud (3281 posts) -
@StaticFalconar said:
" For every "sim" racer no matter what console including PC, the sim version will always be faster than real life. Even Gt4 was proven "wrong" in Top Gear when Jeremy Clarkson had done a faster time which he couldn't replicate in real life on the same track and car. Certain things like Brake fade and feeling the Gs in the corners to put to fear of god in you are not simulated accurately. Even the creator of GT5 said it in interviews leading up to the release, that when he took his real life cars to the same track, the car behaved just ever so slightly then in the game. Of course he wanted to delay the game some more until it was just right, but we all know in real life there are deadlines.  "
When you say this, you infer that the sim version's cars have the same performance as their real life versions. In PC simulations, where most of the content is user created, the quality control is not there like it would be on a professional sim, so the cars are often too fast or too slow.  
 
Regarding brake fade and G's, Brake fade and tyre wear can be simulated, but it's never going to be 100% accurate. As for G forces, 
 
As someone who has driven the Top Gear Test Track in other racing sims, I can tell you it is a boring race track. You aren't missing much. It's a good gimmick to poke in there but it's really not worth it.
#10 Posted by smokemare (254 posts) -
@nickux said:
" I would certainly love to put my times against the Stig, which is pretty much the main reason I'm going to check out GT5. I'm not very much into sim games and the closest thing I get to a driving game involves Mario and a kart. But I'm willing to give GT5 a chance simply because I want to see how realistic it feels and beat ol' Stiggy.  Some say he knows two facts about ducks and both of them are wrong.  I won't go into this game expecting it to justify its long development time. No game will ever be perfect. Somebody needs to let Polyphony Digital and the trolls during the QL live chat know this.  "
The trouble is - as fun as it was, if the cars times by the public don't match the Stig's then it implies that the driving mechanics are broken and therefore 'beating the Stig' becomes somewhat meaningless.
#11 Edited by Diamond (8634 posts) -

GT5 is more sim than the vast majority of gamers actually want (even if they lie to themselves and say they want the most realistic game ever).  The thing GT has always been about is being a fairly realistic sim with tons of content (whereas sims other than Forza just focus on a very narrow set of cars and conditions).  GT5 represents a combination of content and simulation that can't be found elsewhere.  Forza represents another.  There are PC sims that focus more narrowly, and there are arcade racing games on all platforms.
 
GT5 is what it is, and either you want that or you don't.

#12 Posted by StaticFalconar (4849 posts) -
@nintendoeats said:
" @StaticFalconar: In that scenario isn't there also the issue of the idiosyncrasies of a specific vehicle? I suppose somebody who loves cars so much probably accounts for those things, but its not unreasonable to assume that two cares of identical design will be built, or age, in ever-so-slightly different ways. "
You're right, some had criticized Jeremy Clarkson's own test by saying the real life car he used wasn't the exact model year as the one he used in the game. There's just too many variables that stuff is bound to be off.  
 
@zudthespud: Ok, you got me. So with the exception of having a racing set up that cost at least 10k+ and program that is designed just for that one car to be modeled as accurately as possible. In fact I inferred because the sim version is has better performance than the real life counterpart, that it would be faster generally. This would all be due to slight imperfections of either track or physics engine. There is no blowing a cylinder in the middle of a lap in a sim (tarnnys, yes, but engine no), and a sim always has the best or at least set temperature which you cannot just replicate on any given day at the track in real life. Most comparisons people do with sim racing vs real life, they just take a week or so with the game and just one day track day to replicate the time. In terms of being realistic to write a journal/blog/etc yes that seems fair since they have to move on to the next thing, but track conditions and car wear will degrade over the course of a day in real life but everytime you press reset in the sim, its fresh tires, oil, etc. 
 
I'm not going to say it doesn't exist, but at least for the mass market consumer level, a true sim driver/racer will always be close but not exact.