Have you ever played ICO? If you did, you're a misogynist.

It feels like some people make this too white and black. It's either breaking down preconceived notions about gender roles, or its sexist bullshit. I can understand wanting to have cool feminist protagonists who completely buck all of the stereotypes associated with their sex, but does every game have to be that? Ico is supposed to be a story that calls back to simpler fairy tales, and if Yorda were some badass warrior then wouldn't that completely clash with the feel they were going for? Yes she's kind of a helpless character, but that was basically what defined the gameplay. Had she been a different character then they would have had to completely reinvent how the game worked, and who knows if what they had come up with would have been as special.

Do you like Video Games? If you do, you're a misogynist.

@A_Talking_Donkey said:

@kashif1 said:

@A_Talking_Donkey said:

You're both missing the point. It's not about a few games that present women poorly. It's about an industry wide lack of positive female narrative. Playing up tropes as story devices is expected, they're tropes for a reason. What's bad is the seeming inability to escape those tropes. The constant repetition ingrains them to the point of alienation, and the lack of positive female narrative means those who are alienated by the constant barrage of negative portrayal don't really have another (good) game to turn to. It's essentially the industry, and to some extent the player base, saying that they don't want intelligent women playing their games.

While I'm not a female, as a minority I have a similar struggle with gaming. I've never found a video game character I can relate to and the lack of characters I can project on and attach myself to means that the majority of video games I enjoy are either extremely abstract or enjoyed in a strictly strategic or analytical way.

You really have not found anyone in the entire medium? The industry does have a problem with this but I find it hard to believe you havn't found some character somewhere to relate to.

Not many lower class native American/Caucasian mixed characters in gaming, and I'm pretty sure natives are one of the groups with the least representation and almost all of it being some sort of crazy stereotype.

So a character has to be the same social class and ethnicity as you before you can relate to them? I just don't see the logic in that.

I thought Giantbomb was done with this bullshit.

Yeah, you run into problems when looking at the world from just one crooked perspective.

I never thought that characters from ICO were either male or female, but they symbolized other things in a story book kind of way.

@Hunter5024 said:

@A_Talking_Donkey said:

@kashif1 said:

@A_Talking_Donkey said:

You're both missing the point. It's not about a few games that present women poorly. It's about an industry wide lack of positive female narrative. Playing up tropes as story devices is expected, they're tropes for a reason. What's bad is the seeming inability to escape those tropes. The constant repetition ingrains them to the point of alienation, and the lack of positive female narrative means those who are alienated by the constant barrage of negative portrayal don't really have another (good) game to turn to. It's essentially the industry, and to some extent the player base, saying that they don't want intelligent women playing their games.

While I'm not a female, as a minority I have a similar struggle with gaming. I've never found a video game character I can relate to and the lack of characters I can project on and attach myself to means that the majority of video games I enjoy are either extremely abstract or enjoyed in a strictly strategic or analytical way.

You really have not found anyone in the entire medium? The industry does have a problem with this but I find it hard to believe you havn't found some character somewhere to relate to.

Not many lower class native American/Caucasian mixed characters in gaming, and I'm pretty sure natives are one of the groups with the least representation and almost all of it being some sort of crazy stereotype.

So a character has to be the same social class and ethnicity as you before you can relate to them? I just don't see the logic in that.

Given America's systemic oppression of poor people and minorities to the extent that social and fiscal mobility aren't easy to gain access to (not even with a college degree) it's easy gain a strong sense of cultural identity that way. If not for the condition I was born into I'd probably feel less attachment to my cultural heritage but considering it's a large of part of all everything I've ever been able to claim ownership of it does make relating to different types of struggle difficult. The disconnect is furthered with high fantasy escapism.

As one of the lone Japanese speakers on this site, I was going to suggest that maybe one of us should track down some remarks by Ueda that are still in their native Japanese just because a translation without an easily obtainable source can be dubious in arguments like this, especially when translating from a language laden with hidden context like Japanese to a language that needs the context to be more fabricated and explicit like English. But then I read this thread and realized that coherent discourse is not necessarily on the menu for everyone tonight, least of all the productive kind where people are willing to concede a little and come out better informed about everything.

I'll just sit here and, in full disclosure, enjoy my PS2 classic in peace. I'd say I can't wait for her to bring up Catherine if she hasn't yet, but I don't think I'm gonna wait around that long.

@A_Talking_Donkey: Well I don't think that's the video game industry's fault, I think its just a byproduct of your own personal upbringing. I have no trouble relating to characters of a completely different ethnicity, social position, or gender. Nariko in Heavenly Sword for example, was a character who struggled for her father's approval, which is a universally relatable character trait, and so I was able to identify with her even though she couldn't possibly be more outwardly different from me. Not that I wouldn't be incredibly pleased if the number of white male leads dropped significantly.

I just completely adore the idea of some twit who funded this woman's kickstarter without doing the slightest amount of research first, now being completely outraged that they gave money to support this project.

It's a good topic--and it certainly deserves a thoughtful examination--but the moment I watched a video where she basically declared The Big Bang Theory sexist because there are more main male characters than female characters, I saw her work for the poor quality that it is. Some of it is actually fairly well thought out, but stupidity like that should not be supported.

Not to mention the fact that I fail to understand why she needs thousands of dollars to continue making shitty you tube videos that she would pretty much certainly continue to create on her own time.

These reactions are painful... ICO is beautiful game and these reactions are melodramatic and moronic.

Is this that same woman who made that kickstarter a couple months back?

Wow.

Back then I thought she was just a misguided woman with only the best intentions. Now she's nothing more than a Blowhard. So glad i did not contribute to her kickstarter. These issues are certainly worth exploring and discussing, but not in this manner.

My favorite part about that is the part where the person in charge of that Twitter account sucks.

@VelourMustache said:

Isn't it equally as likely that the story is about showing compassion to other people and helping those in need? I don't remember much about the game but doesn't the main character get locked up by the people in his village because they think he's bad luck? Seems to me that it's pretty big of him to help out a complete stranger when I know that my faith in mankind would be pretty low at that point.

That's what mature people who don't view fiction with an agenda would think, yeah. You and I play Ico and we see two kids trying to get out of a dangerous situation. Someone like the Feminist Frequency chick sees Ico and her blood boils because of some paranoid delusion that the devs view women as weak and powerless.

Feminists are slowly climbing up my list of most hated people.

As someone who identifies as a feminist (by way of wanting equality for absolutely everyone), I have to say ICO is the best game I've ever played. Could have had an interesting point on their hands if they put more effort the half a tweet into it.

I can't say the game is in anyway progressive, but, Yorda is not weak because she's a girl. The antagonist and ending of the game also break some of the more tiresome tropes as well.

This is the problem with Feminism as an academic theory, when used to dissect media and literature. It aspires towards a concept of gender neutrality, but ignores the fact that there is very little neutrality in people's interactions in the real world. There is almost always a dominant partner, or more assertive, or more physically dynamic partner even in male-male and female-female relationships of a casual social kind. Feminism has no way to digest this, though, and just decries as sexist any scenario where a female is the lesser contributing partner (while any scenario with a passive male is of course great and positive).

It's the most shallow, monochromatic kind of perspective you can have. The only evidence I need to say so is the fact that it can lead to an under-appreciation of a great game like Ico. Whereas most people with their heads screwed on see a scenario of a little boy and girl trying to escape a magic castle, with the boy waving a stick around and the girl opening magic doors, feminists instead see a reinforcement of phallocentric patriarchy. Never mind the little question of who saves who in the end. Never mind the fact that the most interesting and mysterious force in the game is a matriarch.

I have a weird kind of respect for Sarkeesian after seeing this tweet though. I half feel like she's taken trolling to a new level. The very same white knight mindset which she works so hard to denigrate has at the same time carried her laughing all the way to the bank.

The thing that's interesting to me is all she said was she found the game sexist. Everyone else is defending the part they think she is talking about, so clearly a lot of people were at least thinking about it.

@krazy_kyle said:

Feminists are slowly climbing up my list of most hated people.

I have the feeling you haven't read jack shit about feminism and you base your opinion on what you understand "feminism" to be solely on a vocal minority. If so, I suggest you make the effort to understand what you're criticizing before claiming you hate it. Don't mistake the message for the messenger, or, rather, the message for whatever ulterior agenda the messenger may have.

fuck dude. Can we at least be contemporary about this shit

@JoeyRavn said:

@krazy_kyle said:

Feminists are slowly climbing up my list of most hated people.

I have the feeling you haven't read jack shit about feminism and you base your opinion on what you understand "feminism" to be solely on a vocal minority. If so, I suggest you make the effort to understand what you're criticizing before claiming you hate it. Don't mistake the message for the messenger, or, rather, the message for whatever ulterior agenda the messenger may have.

Everybody's a feminist, except crazy Southern people.

If you IDENTIFY as a feminist, 95% odds you're a fucking psycho.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-URNS

@JoeyRavn said:

@krazy_kyle said:

Feminists are slowly climbing up my list of most hated people.

I have the feeling you haven't read jack shit about feminism and you base your opinion on what you understand "feminism" to be solely on a vocal minority. If so, I suggest you make the effort to understand what you're criticizing before claiming you hate it. Don't mistake the message for the messenger, or, rather, the message for whatever ulterior agenda the messenger may have.

Yes, well, with a kind invitation like that you are surely proving his view of feminists wrong.

What if it was a little boy being pulled around by a girl instead? Do you think all the men would be in forums raging about a game that came out like 7 fucking years ago?

Don't you fucking people have something better to complain about?

I dunno. I was watching my brother playing Ico last night and I kind of felt the same thing. Like, it's not the worst thing on earth, but Yorda is kind of just a helpless girl that the brave boy has to save and it's kind of annoying. It's still a super cool game, and the hand holding part is an amazing idea, but I'm not too into the way that it plays into gender stereotypes. That being said, I have played games far more sexist than Ico. I usually find myself agreeing with Feminist Frequency more often than not, or something, their YouTube channel's kool.

has a point.

@A_Talking_Donkey said:

You're both missing the point. It's not about a few games that present women poorly. It's about an industry wide lack of positive female narrative. Playing up tropes as story devices is expected, they're tropes for a reason. What's bad is the seeming inability to escape those tropes. The constant repetition ingrains them to the point of alienation, and the lack of positive female narrative means those who are alienated by the constant barrage of negative portrayal don't really have another (good) game to turn to. It's essentially the industry, and to some extent the player base, saying that they don't want intelligent women playing their games.

While I'm not a female, as a minority I have a similar struggle with gaming. I've never found a video game character I can relate to and the lack of characters I can project on and attach myself to means that the majority of video games I enjoy are either extremely abstract or enjoyed in a strictly strategic or analytical way.

Oh yeah, this one is my favorite.

'I can't find any characters to relate in video games'

Are you kidding me? There is a main character for literally every race, creed, sex, gender, planet, robot, and celestial being out there. And the best part, because you feel like someone has yet to meet whatever hyper-specific attributes you relate to, then the industry must be missing something.

"Lack of positive female narrative..."

WHAT?! There are so many games starring females in a positive light. You've got to be joking.

@Jace said:

What if it was a little boy being pulled around by a girl instead? Do you think all the men would be in forums raging about a game that came out like 7 fucking years ago?

Don't you fucking people have something better to complain about?

why can't people think?

why was it not a boy? because the cliche is that women are powerless and need men to get through things.

if it was a girl leading a boy, people would assume the boy was sick, handicapped or a wimp and thus worthless.

what would be better for a woman to complain about than being thought an equal?

ugh, why do people want respect? derp.

@stinky said:

@Jace said:

What if it was a little boy being pulled around by a girl instead? Do you think all the men would be in forums raging about a game that came out like 7 fucking years ago?

Don't you fucking people have something better to complain about?

why can't people think?

why was it not a boy? because the cliche is that women are powerless and need men to get through things.

if it was a girl leading a boy, people would assume the boy was sick, handicapped or a wimp and thus worthless.

what would be better for a woman to complain about than being thought an equal?

ugh, why do people want respect? derp.

Yorda didn't speak your language, and I'm PRETTY SURE she was actually blind.

@stinky said:

@Jace said:

What if it was a little boy being pulled around by a girl instead? Do you think all the men would be in forums raging about a game that came out like 7 fucking years ago?

Don't you fucking people have something better to complain about?

why can't people think?

why was it not a boy? because the cliche is that women are powerless and need men to get through things.

if it was a girl leading a boy, people would assume the boy was sick, handicapped or a wimp and thus worthless.

what would be better for a woman to complain about than being thought an equal?

ugh, why do people want respect? derp.

"Why can't people think?"

Did you type that on accident or do you have trouble reading?

"Cliche is that women are powerless."

Oh, funny how the ruler of the castle they are in is a fucking QUEEN. Funny how you pick the parts that make your half-assed arguments look good on forums.

Try harder next time.

Can't it be that Yorda -an individual who happens to be female- is helpless? That doesn't mean ALL women are.

I don't think its reasonable to claim a product is attributing one woman's characteristics to all women everywhere.

@Daneian said:

Can't it be that Yorda -an individual who happens to be female- is helpless? That doesn't mean ALL women are.

I don't think its reasonable to claim a product is attributing one woman's characteristics to all women everywhere.

I will completely admit that I am completely terrible when it comes to this subject, but this is pretty much how I feel. This probably paints me as some kind of big dumb brutish man or something but why the shit can't an emaciated, blind ethereal girl be helpless? Why does it have to be some sort of commentary on women?

I clearly have no business speaking on the subject what with my evil penis and all, but goddamn.

@Jace said:

@stinky said:

@Jace said:

What if it was a little boy being pulled around by a girl instead? Do you think all the men would be in forums raging about a game that came out like 7 fucking years ago?

Don't you fucking people have something better to complain about?

why can't people think?

why was it not a boy? because the cliche is that women are powerless and need men to get through things.

if it was a girl leading a boy, people would assume the boy was sick, handicapped or a wimp and thus worthless.

what would be better for a woman to complain about than being thought an equal?

ugh, why do people want respect? derp.

"Why can't people think?"

Did you type that on accident or do you have trouble reading?

"Cliche is that women are powerless."

Oh, funny how the ruler of the castle they are in is a fucking QUEEN. Funny how you pick the parts that make your half-assed arguments look good on forums.

Try harder next time.

A lot of people have made the point that the Queen is powerful, but she's also totally demonic, so I don't think it's a very meaningful argument to make. She's the antagonist. The powerless girl is good and the powerful woman is evil.

I only ever played the demo, but Ico still seems like a game worth playing to me. However, I do think it's important to recognize what it is implicitly saying about women and how it might inform our culture or our ideas.

I really truly do hate this community.

@EXTomar said:

Umm, I don't think it says that at all.

Yup, misleading thread title.

Also, Fumito Ueda has made other sexist decisions like how The Last Guardian couldn't have a female protagonist:

Early in development, the main character in The Last Guardian was female, but the team ended up going with a boy. The reason: they thought it would be more realistic that he would have enough grip strength to be able to climb around, and because they wouldn't have to worry about camera angles with a girl who wears a skirt.

#YearOfTheBow #YearOfTheSexism rages on!

@AlexanderSheen said:

#YearOfTheBow #YearOfTheSexism rages on!

GOOD!

It's about fucking time.

you're allowed to still like ICO. Jesus fucking christ

@dcgc said:

What? Not following. I like ICO and... I don't even...

What are you, some kind of rapist?

Because I've got a place you can go to get the help you need.

@Terramagi said:

@JoeyRavn said:

@krazy_kyle said:

Feminists are slowly climbing up my list of most hated people.

I have the feeling you haven't read jack shit about feminism and you base your opinion on what you understand "feminism" to be solely on a vocal minority. If so, I suggest you make the effort to understand what you're criticizing before claiming you hate it. Don't mistake the message for the messenger, or, rather, the message for whatever ulterior agenda the messenger may have.

Everybody's a feminist, except crazy Southern people.

If you IDENTIFY as a feminist, 95% odds you're a fucking psycho.

That's actually true. Well, where I'm from it's true. Most feminists that I run into have the idea where everyone deserves equal rights (which I agree), but men should treat women better. For example, I currently work with a feminist that believes she should be doing less work because she's a woman, but deserves equal pay.

I believe in their cause that women should be treated equal. However, they need to understand that men need to be treated equal as well and not treated like they're a rapist.

Listen, Feminist Frequency. In order for me to be a sexist, I have to be happy that Yorba is stupid and useless. I wish she would just save herself. I wish she would get away from the monsters and stopped making me suffer through annoying bullshit. But she won't.

This is also why I think developers are going to reduce the amount of lady characters in games to even less than there is now. Because any female character has to represent all of womanhood. When was the last time we looked at Nathan Drake or Harry Mason or Mario and used them as a comparison for the public perception of men?

I hope the feminist activists realize that women make games, too. I'm really irritated by the idea that all games are just male oppression. In your desire to help women all you do is tell all the women working in the industry that they are irrelevant and gender traitors.

The creator of Ico, SOTC, and The Last Guardian said that the protagonist in TLG could not be a woman because you'd be able to see up her skirt all the time. When asked why the protagonist would be required to wear a skirt if she were female he just seemed puzzled. Ueda seems a bit sexist himself.

Link to story.

Did she say that anyone who liked ICO was a misogynist? No, she didn't. She said that she thought it was sexist. Which is her opinion, one I don't share, but I can sort of see why she would say that. She doesn't say that ICO is the worst thing ever or that you're a bad person for playing the game. She is saying that she thinks it is sexist. Probably because the male character has to do everything and the female character is a mute who has to be led around everywhere, which is true enough.

Stop overreacting. If you disagree with her opinion, feel free to disagree. But don't put words in her mouth, telling people that she thinks anyone who likes ICO is a bad person. She's not saying that.

@Brodehouse said:

Listen, Feminist Frequency. In order for me to be a sexist, I have to be happy that Yorba is stupid and useless. I wish she would just save herself. I wish she would get away from the monsters and stopped making me suffer through annoying bullshit. But she won't.

This is also why I think developers are going to reduce the amount of lady characters in games to even less than there is now. Because any female character has to represent all of womanhood. When was the last time we looked at Nathan Drake or Harry Mason or Mario and used them as a comparison for the public perception of men?

I hope the feminist activists realize that women make games, too. I'm really irritated by the idea that all games are just male oppression. In your desire to help women all you do is tell all the women working in the industry that they are irrelevant and gender traitors.

why are you responding to her as if she called you sexist? Just because you played it and liked it? She didn't say, or mean, that at all. The GAME is sexist. So are a lot of other good games. That's not a personal attack on you or on your penis. Trust me.

Jesus fucking christ.

@Brodehouse said:

Listen, Feminist Frequency. In order for me to be a sexist, I have to be happy that Yorba is stupid and useless. I wish she would just save herself. I wish she would get away from the monsters and stopped making me suffer through annoying bullshit. But she won't.

This is also why I think developers are going to reduce the amount of lady characters in games to even less than there is now. Because any female character has to represent all of womanhood. When was the last time we looked at Nathan Drake or Harry Mason or Mario and used them as a comparison for the public perception of men?

I hope the feminist activists realize that women make games, too. I'm really irritated by the idea that all games are just male oppression. In your desire to help women all you do is tell all the women working in the industry that they are irrelevant and gender traitors.

If I could be bothered, I would give you a round of applause. It is so hard to make a minority character, because so many people are going to go over them with a fine comb looking for anything they can consider discrimination. It's like with Other M: if Samus had been a male, things like the "not turning on the fireproof suit until Adam authorizes it" moments would have been viewed as little more than "well that was kind of stupid". But because Samus is a woman it turns into this whole big thing where the entire game gets accused of been misogynistic.

As I said before, things would be a lot better if we could just let the past go, and not jump on every little thing that can be viewed as sexist. But, by the same token, it would be far better if we stopped making such a fuss every time someone came out with a less than favorable opinion on a game.

People paid money for this? Feminism used to be cool, man.

@Astromarine said:

@Brodehouse said:

Listen, Feminist Frequency. In order for me to be a sexist, I have to be happy that Yorba is stupid and useless. I wish she would just save herself. I wish she would get away from the monsters and stopped making me suffer through annoying bullshit. But she won't.

This is also why I think developers are going to reduce the amount of lady characters in games to even less than there is now. Because any female character has to represent all of womanhood. When was the last time we looked at Nathan Drake or Harry Mason or Mario and used them as a comparison for the public perception of men?

I hope the feminist activists realize that women make games, too. I'm really irritated by the idea that all games are just male oppression. In your desire to help women all you do is tell all the women working in the industry that they are irrelevant and gender traitors.

why are you responding to her as if she called you sexist? Just because you played it and liked it? She didn't say, or mean, that at all. The GAME is sexist. So are a lot of other good games. That's not a personal attack on you or on your penis. Trust me.

Jesus fucking christ.

Because I'm familiar with her work. All games are sexist and you're sexist for playing them is her entire shtick. This isn't an isolated event.

Why do you think I liked Ico? I couldn't stand it beyond the visual style. So there's that.

What does my penis have to do with anything? Does it make my opinion irrelevant?

Honestly, with how out-there the fiction of the Ico universe is and the fact that the main character has friggin' demon horns, it's not hard to imagine Yorda as not a human woman, but a politely bewildered otherworldly being. Don't that the wrong way and assume that I don't think women are people. I only think that children aren't people.

@Terramagi said:

What are you, some kind of rapist?

Because I've got a place you can go to get the help you need.

Rape Camp?

@Jolt92 said:

People paid money for this? Feminism used to be cool, man.

what's "this"? A woman stating a correct opinion that wouldn't be controversial outside videogamer circles?

@Astromarine said:

@Jolt92 said:

People paid money for this? Feminism used to be cool, man.

what's "this"? A woman stating a correct opinion that wouldn't be controversial outside videogamer circles?

If it's an opinion, it's not necessarily "correct."