#1 Posted by mrfluke (5131 posts) -

in case anyone hasn't seen the complimentary David Cage talk here's that thread with said video. ( i say complimentary cause it was him and spector that have been in the headlines cause of what they said)

http://www.giantbomb.com/david-cage/72-20744/heres-the-david-cage-talk-that-riled-everyone-up/35-577959/#85

Again, Probably overhead on tnt of the guys talking about this, so i figured id post this for you guys in case anyones interested in seeing the talk. Even though Spector has more Cred considering he made the first Deus Ex Spector also comes off a bit elitist as well to say the stuff he said. i think stupid, and adult games can co exist fine, one shouldn't go away for the other.

and as before

george broussard sums up what i think

https://twitter.com/georgeb3dr/status/299636455922360320

and heck even ryan agrees with him.

https://twitter.com/taswell/status/299637449892704256

#2 Posted by mrfluke (5131 posts) -

mod overlords, mind moving this to the warren spector page? im sorry guys, i get caught up making sure everything im posted is right that i forget to attach the threads to the specific pages.

#3 Posted by JasonR86 (9659 posts) -

The Lollipop Chainsaw comment was less irritating then the David Cage comment but it's still total bullshit. I mean he's free to his opinion but I don't think a medium grows when you limit what that medium is 'allowed' to do. He comes off as less of a jerk then Cage because he made it more clear that this is his opinion and the audience can take it or leave it if they chose. Cage presented his ideas as more concrete and absolute. As if he were speaking truth.

I think the big fallacy with Cage and Spector's logic is that they assume the video game audience is of the same mindset as them and that the entire video game industry should cater to their view of what that audience is. The problem with this is that the video game audience is fucking huge. It's worldwide with a variety of beliefs on the nature of everything including what is entertaining and what isn't. There is a big audience that appreciate the games Spector and Cage create. I'm one of those people. But there are other people who want to play COD. Or Saints Row. And, as much as it may amaze Cage and Spector, there are people who want to play all of these games. Which is also fine. Because a medium that has a wide breadth is a BETTER MEDIUM.

Online
#4 Posted by TheHumanDove (2523 posts) -

violence alienates people? Since when? Come on Warren, lets not go off the deep end.

#5 Posted by maskedarcstrike (701 posts) -

After watching it I didn't really hear anything that controversial. Didn't Warren say he agreed with Cage about the problems but disagreed about his solutions?

#6 Posted by mrfluke (5131 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

The Lollipop Chainsaw comment was less irritating then the David Cage comment but it's still total bullshit. I mean he's free to his opinion but I don't think a medium grows when you limit what that medium is 'allowed' to do. He comes off as less of a jerk then Cage because he made it more clear that this is his opinion and the audience can take it or leave it if they chose. Cage presented his ideas as more concrete and absolute. As if he were speaking truth.

I think the big fallacy with Cage and Spector's logic is that they assume the video game audience is of the same mindset as them and that the entire video game industry should cater to their view of what that audience is. The problem with this is that the video game audience is fucking huge. It's worldwide with a variety of beliefs on the nature of everything including what is entertaining and what isn't. There is a big audience that appreciate the games Spector and Cage create. I'm one of those people. But there are other people who want to play COD. Or Saints Row. And, as much as it may amaze Cage and Spector, there are people who want to play all of these games. Which is also fine. Because a medium that has a wide breadth is a BETTER MEDIUM.

preach on brother! :P, well rounded opinions like yours are what makes these threads i create worthwhile,

#7 Posted by JasonR86 (9659 posts) -

@mrfluke said:

@JasonR86 said:

The Lollipop Chainsaw comment was less irritating then the David Cage comment but it's still total bullshit. I mean he's free to his opinion but I don't think a medium grows when you limit what that medium is 'allowed' to do. He comes off as less of a jerk then Cage because he made it more clear that this is his opinion and the audience can take it or leave it if they chose. Cage presented his ideas as more concrete and absolute. As if he were speaking truth.

I think the big fallacy with Cage and Spector's logic is that they assume the video game audience is of the same mindset as them and that the entire video game industry should cater to their view of what that audience is. The problem with this is that the video game audience is fucking huge. It's worldwide with a variety of beliefs on the nature of everything including what is entertaining and what isn't. There is a big audience that appreciate the games Spector and Cage create. I'm one of those people. But there are other people who want to play COD. Or Saints Row. And, as much as it may amaze Cage and Spector, there are people who want to play all of these games. Which is also fine. Because a medium that has a wide breadth is a BETTER MEDIUM.

preach on brother! :P, well rounded opinions like yours are what makes these threads i create worthwhile,

Online
#8 Posted by egg (1455 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

The Lollipop Chainsaw comment was less irritating then the David Cage comment but it's still total bullshit. I mean he's free to his opinion but I don't think a medium grows when you limit what that medium is 'allowed' to do.

He wasn't saying that.. in fact he was saying the opposite. He actually point out how in his "dues ex" days he was championing a specific type of gameplay as if that was all there was.. when he should have had a more open mind.

#9 Posted by JasonR86 (9659 posts) -

@egg said:

@JasonR86 said:

The Lollipop Chainsaw comment was less irritating then the David Cage comment but it's still total bullshit. I mean he's free to his opinion but I don't think a medium grows when you limit what that medium is 'allowed' to do.

He wasn't saying that.. in fact he was saying the opposite. He actually point out how in his "dues ex" days he was championing a specific type of gameplay as if that was all there was.. when he should have had a more open mind.

When he put up the Lollipop Chainsaw picture he was about to go on with this lecture and then stopped and said, basically, "oh, by the way, some games just shouldn't be made" and then motioned toward the Lollipop Chainsaw picture. Then he carried on with his lecture.

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#10 Posted by TheHumanDove (2523 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

@egg said:

@JasonR86 said:

The Lollipop Chainsaw comment was less irritating then the David Cage comment but it's still total bullshit. I mean he's free to his opinion but I don't think a medium grows when you limit what that medium is 'allowed' to do.

He wasn't saying that.. in fact he was saying the opposite. He actually point out how in his "dues ex" days he was championing a specific type of gameplay as if that was all there was.. when he should have had a more open mind.

When he put up the Lollipop Chainsaw picture he was about to go on with this lecture and then stopped and said, basically, "oh, by the way, some games just shouldn't be made" and then motioned toward the Lollipop Chainsaw picture. Then he carried on with his lecture.

Indeed. That's the message that was being presented. It surely wasnt the opposite, look at his body language. In fact, his whole show is a jab at games like lollipop chainsaw

#11 Edited by TruthTellah (8826 posts) -

A developer has a different personal preference on the games he thinks people should make? And he didn't try to sugar-coat that opinion?

I am simply aghast.

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#12 Posted by egg (1455 posts) -

Are you sure btw that he was referring to Lollipop Chainsaw? Not saying it wasn't, but he camera cut away at that part so I decided to ignore it.

By the way, what's wrong with Lollipop Chainsaw? It's hardly the most violent game ever, is it? Or is sexism the issue? I would have thought there exist games that are either more violent or more sexist then LP.

#13 Posted by Sackmanjones (4688 posts) -

Can somebody just tell me what they said that "riled" everyone up? I don't care enough to listen to it myself.

#14 Posted by Ares42 (2625 posts) -

To me it came off as just some guy with an outlet for his mid-life crisis. While there's nothing wrong with that, it's more of a personal issue than something the industry needs to pay attention to. If he has discovered he'd rather leave a mark on the world than just make yet another disposable product that's fine, but it doesn't mean everyone else needs to do the same.

#15 Posted by mrfluke (5131 posts) -

@Sackmanjones: when i mean riled up, i mean in the sense that the internet was in a outrage :P

my interpretation is in part of their talks they said how gaming should get away from the juvenile stuff and go fully in the adult serious meaningful direction (to which warren spector pointed to lollypop chainsaw as something we should get away from)

#16 Posted by JasonR86 (9659 posts) -

@egg:

We can't be sure because we weren't there and the editing doesn't make it clear. But the image was up as he broke from the lecture, he pointed in the direction of the image relative to where he was standing, and it fits with the tone of the whole lecture of 'games need to reflect an aging audience' with the implication that LPC was juvenile.

@Sackmanjones said:

Can somebody just tell me what they said that "riled" everyone up? I don't care enough to listen to it myself.

Just read what I wrote to above.

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#17 Posted by OppressiveStink (356 posts) -
@TruthTellah

A developer has a different personal preference on the games he thinks people should make? And he didn't try to sugar-coat that opinion?

I am simply aghast.

Ehh, its more along the lines of "irrelevant old man gets media attention because once he helped make a good game."

And as far as sugar coat, well, I'd argue anyone who pays any attention to him at all after the stillborn epic mickey is sugar coating his industry career.
#18 Posted by jakob187 (21665 posts) -

I think Warren Spector hates Demolition Man. If that's the case, he can fuck right off.

#19 Posted by Nottle (1912 posts) -

Sort of funny that both David Cage and Warren Spector's games have a level of immaturity.

You can blow up everyone into quake gibs, including children in Deus Ex right? And David Cage has 2 games where there are completely gratuitous scenes of female nudity.

Also, though I haven't played Suda51's Killer 7, doesn't that have a fairly complex story once you get past some of the disturbing and sophomoric humour. Perhaps surpassing Deus Ex or Heavy Rain in terms of literary merit?

#20 Posted by project343 (2818 posts) -

That was condescending as fuck. He's lucky he has such a soft, lovable voice or I'd be pretty peed off.

#21 Posted by Demoskinos (14778 posts) -

Maybe Warren Specter can talk shit about other games once he makes a good game again. He has Deus Ex that's it. Seriously, what other notable things has he done? Nothing that I can think of.

#22 Posted by joshthebear (2700 posts) -

Considering his last to games were Epic Mickey 1 & 2, he's not really in the position to say what is and isn't a good game.

#23 Posted by Zekhariah (697 posts) -

Pretensions to some level of purity and artistry when you are actually work for hire to a mass audience always looks absurd. They both work (or worked for Warren) at corporations, and by now should realize where the money comes from. And maybe after that get over the fact that the companies employing most of the folks in their field are attempting to make money and continue to support their teams.

I expect that sort of attitude from a young indie rocker type, but a grown man needs to learn to live with reality to at least the point of accepting coexistence. In particular when they are very much part of that system.

#24 Posted by RedCream (704 posts) -

Why would anyone stop making games like Lollipop Chainsaw? I can appreciate games for their own merits whether it be juvenile or meaningful. If it's a good game it will show whether the theme is immature or not.

#25 Posted by ArbitraryWater (11638 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

Maybe Warren Specter can talk shit about other games once he makes a good game again. He has Deus Ex that's it. Seriously, what other notable things has he done? Nothing that I can think of.

Thief, the original System Shock, and Ultima Underworld. Dude has made some games, and some influential ones at that. A better question would be "what has he made in the past 10 years?" and the answer is Epic Mickey.

#26 Posted by I_smell (3924 posts) -

It's really depressing that every post in this thread is such a hot-headed retaliation. It's like you're literally proving them right that video games are for shithead teenagers right now. The fact that practically every game is about tearing up a fantasy-world is a PRETTY FAIR thing to complain about, guys. You all know that's true. There KIND OF IS a lack of compelling regular human decisions in games. I can't believe I have to say this, cos it's become a cliche catchphrase at this point, but you brought it upon yourself: NOBODY'S TAKING AWAY YOUR CALL OF DUTY. IT'S STILL THERE. It's kind of impossible to get rid of. Grand Theft Auto is still top dog, that stuff's not getting recalled immediately just cos a 50-year-old designer is asking "where's the games for me?" It's a good thing that this is happening, don't kick n scream just cos you don't wanna lose fucking Lollipop Chainsaw of all things.

#27 Posted by Superfriend (1545 posts) -

You know what we should get away from? Overly hyped, shitty 3D jump and runs that sell only because of the license attached to them.

Also: The guy who did TWO Mickey Mouse games talks about how games need to grow up? Fuck that.

#28 Posted by I_smell (3924 posts) -

Alright it feels like there's round about 2 types of comment in this thread so far: giving Warren Spector shit about making bad games, or being offended that he hates Lollipop Chainsaw. Both of those are completely schoolgirl tactics of dodging the viewpoint raised in both videos. The fact that a slim percent of a percent of games are made for people over 21, or just anyone who's not interested in fuckin' dudes up, is a legit concern to have about us as an industry. The fact that you guys are flipping your shit trying to shoot that down so hard is creepy to me. It's supposed to be the old folks clawing onto the tried n tested with young people dieing for anything new or different, not the other way around.

#29 Posted by Lyisa (344 posts) -

So wait, is he talking about bringing back adventure games? I thought that Dreamfall: chapters project that was halted due to The Secret World was getting started again. Maybe in a few years he'll get the type of games he wants?

Even if he hates games like Lollipop Chainsaw, it doesn't sound like he wants games to be marketed at his group over the typical 16-24 age group. It sounds more like he wants more diversity in the market.

#30 Posted by OfficeGamer (1087 posts) -

Jesus what the fuck is his point? 14 minutes here and I got nothing worth my time

#31 Posted by HarlechQuinn (447 posts) -

I am glad nobody pulled the "Epic Mickey 2 shouldn't have been made" joke so far... Oooh, gawd damnit...

#32 Posted by mlarrabee (2927 posts) -

Warren Spector thinks that Shawshank Redemption is a better engagement than Die Hard, and that the weight of design and production should move from the latter to the former.

Oh, no!

#33 Posted by Coombs (3449 posts) -

Who?

Said What?

and we care Why?

#34 Posted by Ghostiet (5251 posts) -

I find it extremely funny that the two people that were talking about this shit are David Cage, who made two disappointing games due to his own hubris and lack of ability to write and Warren Spector, who failed to create anything relevant since Deus Ex. It's a guy who was never talented and a man who looks like he fell out of the loop.

#36 Posted by EXTomar (4687 posts) -

There should be room for Lollipop Chainsaw and more sophisticated games.

#37 Posted by Max_Cherry (1133 posts) -

I'm a 64.92 year old gamer, and thinks this kid needs to shut his trap (and get off my lawn).

#38 Posted by Max_Cherry (1133 posts) -

...Also, I was very naive when I was 45.

#39 Posted by Gooddoggy (410 posts) -

@jakob187 said:

I think Warren Spector hates Demolition Man. If that's the case, he can fuck right off.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I agree.

Also, complementary means two things going together well. Complimentary means flattering, or free.

#40 Edited by project343 (2818 posts) -

@I_smell said:

Alright it feels like there's round about 2 types of comment in this thread so far: giving Warren Spector shit about making bad games, or being offended that he hates Lollipop Chainsaw. Both of those are completely schoolgirl tactics of dodging the viewpoint raised in both videos. The fact that a slim percent of a percent of games are made for people over 21, or just anyone who's not interested in fuckin' dudes up, is a legit concern to have about us as an industry. The fact that you guys are flipping your shit trying to shoot that down so hard is creepy to me. It's supposed to be the old folks clawing onto the tried n tested with young people dieing for anything new or different, not the other way around.

You are completely missing the tone of people's reaction. I'm sure everyone in this thread agrees that this industry needs to start embracing games that move beyond teenage power-fantasies. There's no question about that, because it's a fucking boring, obvious argument to make. It's like asking: should we try to make the world a better place? The only answer is 'duh.' It isn't insightful, it isn't meaningful.

The problem everyone in this thread has is that we can push for those sorts of games without shitting on the teenage power-fantasy. They are still very much a worthwhile genre/tone/theme to pursue, and certainly exist in other mediums. I love my Walking Dead's and my Heavy Rain's, but I also love my Bayonetta's. More than that, Warren Spector's whole tone throughout that presentation was 'I'm old, and I know better than you.' I'm sorry, but it's super condescending, and his argument is so boring and obvious that he never earns the right to be so condescending, particularly after nearly 10 years of unambitious, boring, and just plain bad releases.

#41 Posted by Max_Cherry (1133 posts) -

...And he's not even older than some of us. "I'm 57 and 1/3rd years old..."; Well I'm 64 "and 5/6" years old and dropped the fractions off my age when I was 7. I'm sorry, but fuck that was condescending!!!

#42 Posted by I_smell (3924 posts) -

Then it turns out you're all as sensitive to offence as a bunch of old English nannies,and as quick to shit on developers as kotaku or neogaf.