How censorship can lead to better video games - discussion.

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oldschool

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#1  Edited By oldschool
How censorship can lead to better video games

In 1954, the Comics Code Authority put restrictions on the content of comic books in the United States, with the aim of removing anything that could be considered unwholesome, harmful or otherwise inappropriate. Some notable clauses in the code included a prohibition on excessive violence; an outright ban on nudity and that good must triumph over evil in every instance. CCA approval was not a legal requirement, but many distributors would refuse to carry titles that did not bear the Authority's seal.

While this might not seem to have a great deal to do with video games, with Germany considering a
 complete ban on violent video games, and Japan's Ethics Organization for Computer Software imposing new restrictions on erogefollowing the outcry over Rapelay, there seems to be a prevailing trend globally towards the type of censorship that the CCA espoused. Of course, America has long had a CCA-like body for video games in the ESRB, which – while entirely voluntary – carries sufficient sway with retailers to significantly influence video game content. [In the UK, the BBFC keeps an eye on game content but the extent of its influence on retailers – other than the obvious ability to ban a game, thereby making it illegal for sale – has yet to be demonstrated.]

The parallels to the kind of hoops that comic books had to jump through run fairly deep. Nudity and sex are already big issues and you need only look at the furor generated by the 'Hot Coffee' incident, or the wholly consensual sex scene in 
Mass Effect to see how true that is, and the 'excessive' violence of games has frequently come under fire from a horde of vociferous, though well-meaning, critics.

However, if this trend gains momentum, and leads to more stringent restrictions on games – which doesn't seem all that unlikely when you consider that some news outlets will try and
 shoehorn gaming in where it doesn't belong – history provides us with hope for the future. While some publishers saw their stable of titles devastated by the Comics Code, others thrived. Only a few years after the Code's introduction, Marvel debuted some of the most iconic characters, and began to tell stories in a different way, giving their characters a complexity that proved a big hit with those who had grown tired of the alien ubermensch and billionaire playboy detectives other publishers were producing.

As social attitudes changed, the Code grew less and less restrictive, although some things took longer than to change than others. For example, the ban on the depiction of narcotics in comics was relaxed in 1971, but the prohibition on homosexuality in the medium was only lifted in 1989.

The point of this is that when the traditional staples were taken away, the comic book industry found new ways to tell stories. While censorship is never desirable, if it transpires that it is unavoidable, then like the comic book publishers, the games industry will have to find new ways to tell stories. Once the crutches of violence and gore have been taken away, developers are going to have to stretch themselves if they want to tell a half decent story.

Obviously there will be those who will scoff at the idea that censorship could have anything other than a negative effect on the industry, and consider it naïve, or ill-informed to think otherwise. They will point to the lacklustre library of titles on the Wii as evidence that a platform without violence is barely a platform at all. To a certain degree, these people will be correct, as there will undoubtedly be lazy developers that will make shovelware titles, but the companies who actually care about what they're doing, companies like Epic, Lionhead and Valve, to name but a few, will continue to make quality titles, and when these hypothetical restrictions on game content are relaxed, as they inevitably will be, we gamers will reap the benefits of an industry that has learnt to tell stories properly.



I think the article raises some good points.  The greatest writing has always been in a time of censorship as it requires great imagination to get your point across in a way that connects with the reader and still avoids the censorship.  The greatest example of this for has always been The Crucible during McCarthyism.

What are your thoughts on this and censorship in general?
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Al3xand3r

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#2  Edited By Al3xand3r

Censorship is bad. Shitty writers are worse. Shitty writers won't become good due to censorship. Shitty writers won't become good without.

So, expect good game stories to be few and far between regardless of censorship. Maybe they'll someday hire real writers regularly.

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Diamond

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#3  Edited By Diamond

The comic book content bans aren't very supportive of the article.  The comic book industry hasn't evolved or grown, and it's still considered 'for kids' and 'loser types' by many.  If the video game industry were to follow down that path, it would paint a very bleak future for games...


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oldschool

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#4  Edited By oldschool
@Al3xand3r said:
" Censorship is bad. Shitty writers are worse. Shitty writers won't become good due to censorship. Shitty writers won't become good without.So, expect good game stories to be few and far between regardless of censorship. Maybe they'll someday hire real writers regularly. "
I agree totally that censorship is bad.  Unfortunately it is kind of necessary, but usually the market will sort it out.  I don't think it can be denied though that history has had some of its best work during, be it writing, film , music or art.  It makes the artist work harder and the results have been good.  It shouldn't have to happen that way though.

A shitty writer is a shitty writer.  Unfortunately the video game industry has some of the shittiest.  It isn't seen in the highest regard to write for video games.  When (if) that changes, things will improve.
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#5  Edited By Claude

Beautiful, we as human beings rise above the tethered few for the masses are many. The joys of one person's day is not the joy of the many but of the individual. What do we get? A day in a life... bring it on. Censorship creates walls that are meant to be sneaked around, scaled or broken down.

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Diamond

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#6  Edited By Diamond
@oldschool said:
I agree totally that censorship is bad.  Unfortunately it is kind of necessary, but usually the market will sort it out.  I don't think it can be denied though that history has had some of its best work during, be it writing, film , music or art.  It makes the artist work harder and the results have been good.  It shouldn't have to happen that way though.
Wait, censorship is necessary?  How so?
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toowalrus

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#7  Edited By toowalrus

It always sucks when awful games rely on explicit material as their main attribute. While it would be great if censorship killed Box Office Bust. However, more censorship would also throttle great games which use violence/sex/language effectively. Dead Space wouldn't be the same if I couldn't stomp hundreds of human corpses, and splat their dismembered limbs against the walls.

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oldschool

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#8  Edited By oldschool
@Claude said:
" Beautiful, we as human beings rise above the tethered few for the masses are many. The joys of one person's day is not the joy of the many but of the individual. What do we get? A day in a life... bring it on. Censorship creates walls that are meant to be sneaked around, scaled or broken down. "
Nice  :-)

Never stop fighting the man I say  xP  

If we had Utopia, we would still find things that we want to do in which we are told we can't.  Human nature for some.
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Brendan

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#9  Edited By Brendan
@Diamond said:
"The comic book content bans aren't very supportive of the article.  The comic book industry hasn't evolved or grown, and it's still considered 'for kids' and 'loser types' by many.  If the video game industry were to follow down that path, it would paint a very bleak future for games..."

Don't forget the general public still sees video games the same way, and it only with the introduction of the Wii's type of titles that they are being introduced to gaming.
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oldschool

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#10  Edited By oldschool
@Diamond said:
"
@oldschool said:
I agree totally that censorship is bad.  Unfortunately it is kind of necessary, but usually the market will sort it out.  I don't think it can be denied though that history has had some of its best work during, be it writing, film , music or art.  It makes the artist work harder and the results have been good.  It shouldn't have to happen that way though.
Wait, censorship is necessary?  How so? "
Simple, like free speech, art, must have limits.  You can't scream "fire" in a cinema.  You shouldn't be able to publish a game that encourages the extermination of Jews.  I use that as an extreme example.

Society will always have limits to what it can tolerate.  Artists and citizens must always test that, but some things will always and should be censored.  You wouldn't advocate a game that may be called Paedophile, an MMORPG would you?  Again, I use an extreme example, because it shows what can happen without censorship.

Don't assume I am in favour of censorship though.  I am not.  Censorship in games should not exceed what is available in art, music, film or literature.  Why should it?  As an adult, if I want to play a truly adult game, then that is my decision, not a government body that will likely be controlled by politics and very likely, Christian attitudes.
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toowalrus

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#11  Edited By toowalrus
@oldschool said:
"
@Diamond said:
"
@oldschool said:
I agree totally that censorship is bad.  Unfortunately it is kind of necessary, but usually the market will sort it out.  I don't think it can be denied though that history has had some of its best work during, be it writing, film , music or art.  It makes the artist work harder and the results have been good.  It shouldn't have to happen that way though.
Wait, censorship is necessary?  How so? "
Simple, like free speech, art, must have limits.  You can't scream "fire" in a cinema.  You shouldn't be able to publish a game that encourages the extermination of Jews.  I use that as an extreme example.

Society will always have limits to what it can tolerate.  Artists and citizens must always test that, but some things will always and should be censored.  You wouldn't advocate a game that may be called Paedophile, an MMORPG would you?  Again, I use an extreme example, because it shows what can happen without censorship.

Don't assume I am in favour of censorship though.  I am not.  Censorship in games should not exceed what is available in art, music, film or literature.  Why should it?  As an adult, if I want to play a truly adult game, then that is my decision, not a government body that will likely be controlled by politics and very likely, Christian attitudes.
"
Don't bring the religion-bashing into the discussion, please! A little censorship is always necessary... which is why genitals are blurred out of the 12-year-old in RapeLay! I'm frequently having to resist the urge to shout FIRE at the theater.
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Diamond

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#12  Edited By Diamond
@Brendan said:
Don't forget the general public still sees video games the same way, and it only with the introduction of the Wii's type of titles that they are being introduced to gaming.
Right now I think the general public is beyond that phase, but limit games too much and that will go away.

@oldschool said:
Simple, like free speech, art, must have limits.  You can't scream "fire" in a cinema.  You shouldn't be able to publish a game that encourages the extermination of Jews.  I use that as an extreme example.

Society will always have limits to what it can tolerate.  Artists and citizens must always test that, but some things will always and should be censored.  You wouldn't advocate a game that may be called Paedophile, an MMORPG would you?  Again, I use an extreme example, because it shows what can happen without censorship.
Screaming 'fire' in a cinema isn't related to free speech just as stabbing someone to death in real life isn't art.

Current laws protect against a pedophile game today.  It's not about game censorship or any specific medium censorship.

As for the hate crime encouraging game, do you know if you could legally sell a video that endorses hate crimes today?  I personally don't know about that.  Should a game be treated differently than a video or book in this regards?  I think we should decide on what's tolerable for society as a whole, not nit pick specific mediums.
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#13  Edited By LiquidPrince

No censorship period. You don't need censor something to try and bring out creativity.

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oldschool

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#14  Edited By oldschool
@TooWalrus said: 
Don't bring the religion-bashing into the discussion, please! A little censorship is always necessary... which is why genitals are blurred out of the 12-year-old in RapeLay! I'm frequently having to resist the urge to shout FIRE at the theater. "
That isn't religious bashing.  It is a fact of life.  Whenever there is a discussion of free anything, religion and in particular, Christian views are there.  Almost every argument against gay marriage, abortion or euthanasia cannot be had, without god being in the reasons.  It won't be avoided and never will.  I despise the fact that religious people enforce their views on society, even those who don't believe in a god.  Church will always be there to argue against anything and censorship is a big one.

@Diamond said:
"
@Brendan said:
Don't forget the general public still sees video games the same way, and it only with the introduction of the Wii's type of titles that they are being introduced to gaming.
Right now I think the general public is beyond that phase, but limit games too much and that will go away.

@oldschool said:
Simple, like free speech, art, must have limits.  You can't scream "fire" in a cinema.  You shouldn't be able to publish a game that encourages the extermination of Jews.  I use that as an extreme example.

Society will always have limits to what it can tolerate.  Artists and citizens must always test that, but some things will always and should be censored.  You wouldn't advocate a game that may be called Paedophile, an MMORPG would you?  Again, I use an extreme example, because it shows what can happen without censorship.
Screaming 'fire' in a cinema isn't related to free speech just as stabbing someone to death in real life isn't art.Current laws protect against a pedophile game today.  It's not about game censorship or any specific medium censorship.As for the hate crime encouraging game, do you know if you could legally sell a video that endorses hate crimes today?  I personally don't know about that.  Should a game be treated differently than a video or book in this regards?  I think we should decide on what's tolerable for society as a whole, not nit pick specific mediums. "
It is still censorship and I am not about to argue the rights of someone to make a hate game.  That is censorship that I have support.

You can't argue that we censor what is illegal, as games are full of illegal activity all the time.  There is just a line where that censorship ends.  That line will be different to all of us, but somewhere all of us will have a line where we agree that we need censorship.  

Stopping hate speech is censorship.
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Diamond

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#15  Edited By Diamond
@oldschool said:
It is still censorship and I am not about to argue the rights of someone to make a hate game.  That is censorship that I have support.

You can't argue that we censor what is illegal, as games are full of illegal activity all the time.  There is just a line where that censorship ends.  That line will be different to all of us, but somewhere all of us will have a line where we agree that we need censorship.  

Stopping hate speech is censorship.
You're missing an important point though.  Games can depict illegal activity, but they in themselves aren't committing illegal acts.  Screaming 'fire' in a theater has legal implications, so it's not relevant to censorship.  If a game were illegal, say it contained child pornography, that's in the realm of 'real world' law breaking.

Personally I'm not aware of the specifics of the legal standing of hate speech in any medium, but I'm saying games shouldn't be singled out for censorship.
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oldschool

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#16  Edited By oldschool
@Diamond said:
"
@oldschool said:
It is still censorship and I am not about to argue the rights of someone to make a hate game.  That is censorship that I have support.

You can't argue that we censor what is illegal, as games are full of illegal activity all the time.  There is just a line where that censorship ends.  That line will be different to all of us, but somewhere all of us will have a line where we agree that we need censorship.  

Stopping hate speech is censorship.
You're missing an important point though.  Games can depict illegal activity, but they in themselves aren't committing illegal acts.  Screaming 'fire' in a theater has legal implications, so it's not relevant to censorship.  If a game were illegal, say it contained child pornography, that's in the realm of 'real world' law breaking.Personally I'm not aware of the specifics of the legal standing of hate speech in any medium, but I'm saying games shouldn't be singled out for censorship. "
A game has legal implications otherwise developers would not be sued for people doing copycat acts from games - successfully or not, so it does have legal implications.

Otherwise we agree - games should not be singled out.  I made that point earlier.  It is just fiction like film and literature.  Let adults decide what they want to play and then the market to sort out the success or failure of it.
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#17  Edited By AgentJ

I think the idea of losing all the shooters for a while intersting, as we would then see a lot more great stories told, but that doesn't mean i would be for it happening. 

Also, the Crucible was a great book and a great movie
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PureRok

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#18  Edited By PureRok
@Claude said:
" Beautiful, we as human beings rise above the tethered few for the masses are many. The joys of one person's day is not the joy of the many but of the individual. What do we get? A day in a life... bring it on. Censorship creates walls that are meant to be sneaked around, scaled or broken down. "
I have no idea what you just said.
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oldschool

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#19  Edited By oldschool
@LiquidPrince said:
" No censorship period. You don't need censor something to try and bring out creativity. "
I don't think they are saying we need censorship for creativity (nor am I), but that it becomes a by-product of it.
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Hamst3r

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#20  Edited By Hamst3r
@oldschool said:
" Once the crutches of violence and gore have been taken away, developers are going to have to stretch themselves if they want to tell a half decent story."
Ooh, like porn in Japan! Stretch those boundaries!

@oldschool said:
What are your thoughts on this and censorship in general?
Worst. Idea. Ever.

@oldschool said:
You shouldn't be able to publish a game that encourages the extermination of Jews.
What? Of course you should be able to. There's no reason not to be able to.
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oldschool

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#21  Edited By oldschool
@Hamst3r said:
"@oldschool said: 
" Once the crutches of violence and gore have been taken away, developers are going to have to stretch themselves if they want to tell a half decent story."
Ooh, like porn in Japan! Stretch those boundaries!

@oldschool said:
What are your thoughts on this and censorship in general?
Worst. Idea. Ever.

@oldschool said:
You shouldn't be able to publish a game that encourages the extermination of Jews.
What? Of course you should be able to. There's no reason not to be able to."
I know you are being flippant there, but we always have to take an extreme example to show far no censorship can go.  We can bever be censorship free  - society needs some to be civilised and coherent.
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Hamst3r

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#22  Edited By Hamst3r
@oldschool: Actually, I was being very forthright with my statements. We should be able to explore the extreme through art, whatever it may be. Society does not need censorship in video games, music, film or any other artistic medium to be civilized and coherent. It's completely unnecessary. :)
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SolemnOaf

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#23  Edited By SolemnOaf

I don't agree with anything that seeks to limit my potential experiences under the assumption that they know better than I what should and should not be seen or done.  After I finished reading that article, for some reason the scene from Fable 2 with the commandant played through my head.  "I will hurt you and you will thank me for it.  OBEY!"  Some people are still able to convince themselves that they are in possession of personal freedom, but for others like myself who are fully aware of the shackles of commerce that deception is all but nonexistant.  

While I know that expression must have some restrictions, this is another potential decision that could remove yet even more of an individual's right to chose what they can and cannot bear witness to, as If society is comprised of children that must be tended to and constrained to stop them from hurting themselves.   I would rather make those decisions for myself, and let the public's desperately maintained illusions of decency and morality burn in hell, where they belong.

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oldschool

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#24  Edited By oldschool
@Hamst3r said:
" @oldschool: Actually, I was being very forthright with my statements. We should be able to explore the extreme through art, whatever it may be. Society does not need censorship in video games, music, film or any other artistic medium to be civilized and coherent. It's completely unnecessary. :) "
If art has a real outcome that is destructive to society, then a limit is reasonable.

I am no pride or wowser.  I supported Piss Christ when it was in my city.  The Christian lobby wanted it banned and some nutjob attacked it.  I supported an artist who used the national flag in controversial ways, such as in a partially burned state.  I just tell people to get over it - then they attack me verbally.

But ....... if that art incites hate rather than challenge thought, we have to draw a line.  The line is the problem.  It is usually about context.  A game about Germans killing Jews has merit if it has context.
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Linkyshinks

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#25  Edited By Linkyshinks

I hate censorship for the most part, but I do definitely see why it's needed in some cases. I think too many people would take things to extremes given the chance, shock value in many art forms is all too popular today for a number of reasons.

As a mature open minded adult, I want very few restrictions on what content I can view, I want to be able to make an informed decisions and not be forced out of making those decisions. Some things do need to be cut because the ramifications of not doing so could be very negative among the audience, but at the same time, It angers me when game gets cut and a artists labour and creative license is weakened by censors. It gets me riled up when I hear the reasons why sometimes, because to me they are nonsensical and  simply not justified.

Videogames should be able to depict all things shown in modern cinema today, there should be no boundaries what so ever there, and the fact that there is suggests a snobbery of sort, it implies the false idea that the interaction that videogames can provide somehow makes your exposure to such content worse.  

Censorship can be very heavy handed on occasion, yet on the flip side totally weak in some cases, stuff that should be censored, is not.  I don't think it's right at all that extreme torture is depicted in cinema solely for shock value and comedy for some. Certainly not when the primary audiences country are known to inflict torture among certain peoples of the world. They spread that filth around the world desensitizing us all to what is truly horrific in reality.

There is little uniformity around the world as to what is deemed acceptable by the masses, because one's culture will always dictate perception here, but I do hope that one day the right people all get together an discuss how we can all make censorship work for everyone in the world,  without stemming the good intentions and the important political statements art can make. The creative spirit in all of us should be cultivated carefully.

It's true that history has shown censorship can force creativity, but I hope one day that some freedom instead will encourage it among the masses, not the hands of the few censors.



 



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oldschool

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#26  Edited By oldschool
@Linkyshinks said:
" All that Linkyshinks said - read above.  And as artist that he is, I trust his view "
True.  It is also what I am saying - treat games as the same as music, film, literature and art.  How far a developer will go will be determined by what the market will buy.  Leave the cutting edge stuff to the indie world where it belongs - they do it better than the commercial world
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Hamst3r

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#27  Edited By Hamst3r
@oldschool: The line is drawn by the backlash to the hateful art, not by making laws to restrict the art from being made.

Freedom of speech does not protect the proverbial Jew-hating game developer from the people that do not agree with his opinions and he'll have to deal with that when it happens, but nothing should stop him from making his game.
If the public wants to abhor the art that has been made - perfectly fine.
If the public wants laws to prevent the art from ever happening - not fine.
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RsistncE

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#28  Edited By RsistncE
@oldschool:

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

                                                                                                                                                     - Benjamin Franklin

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tekmojo

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#29  Edited By tekmojo
Censorship bans games like GTA in some countries. Games should never be banned, although I wish game ratings would actually be enforced more, but you can't really blame retailers for making a profit. 

Also, it angers me when politicians keep butting their way into the free market. It's worng, especially when gaming holds a huge chunk of the entertainment industry. Find another another way to make games? I say find another way to enforce and educate about games in general.
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tekmojo

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#30  Edited By tekmojo
@oldschool said:
"
@Hamst3r said:
" @oldschool: Actually, I was being very forthright with my statements. We should be able to explore the extreme through art, whatever it may be. Society does not need censorship in video games, music, film or any other artistic medium to be civilized and coherent. It's completely unnecessary. :) "
If art has a real outcome that is destructive to society, then a limit is reasonable.

I am no pride or wowser.  I supported Piss Christ when it was in my city.  The Christian lobby wanted it banned and some nutjob attacked it.  I supported an artist who used the national flag in controversial ways, such as in a partially burned state.  I just tell people to get over it - then they attack me verbally.

But ....... if that art incites hate rather than challenge thought, we have to draw a line.  The line is the problem.  It is usually about context.  A game about Germans killing Jews has merit if it has context.
"
Most hate speech is protected by our First Amendment rights. Some exceptions include inciting riot, inflicting or threatening to harm one another or group of individuals. 

We are allowed to discriminate ethnicities, burn the U.S. flag, and demean a person's gender or sexuality. That doesn't mean that the opposing sides will just sit back and let it happen. More than likely there are confrontations.
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Seppli

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#31  Edited By Seppli

Censorship in the realm of videogames comes from the general publics believe, that games are entertainment for kids, and kids only. This is a misconception and 'thus, all cencorship of violent videogames is wrong.

This public display of ignorance may very well have the opposite effect on the youth, since it's proof, that society and its leaders aren't fit to decide for anyone. Even little and utterly unimportant things, like videogames, seem to be beyond their grasp. Societies ignorance causes people to turn anti-social.

Also, I don't believe, that censorship is good for videogames. Working around a censorship issue, might end up in creating an amazing game, but that is the exception to the rule. The rule is: 'Censorship blows!'

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Alexander

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#32  Edited By Alexander

There needs to be censorship to some degree or else you have lots of rape games and people that are not old enough seeing things they shouldn't. Censorship isn't just about Hot Coffee, it's about preventing obscenity. Which is a good thing.

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oldschool

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#33  Edited By oldschool
@Alexander said:
" There needs to be censorship to some degree or else you have lots of rape games and people that are not old enough seeing things they shouldn't. Censorship isn't just about Hot Coffee, it's about preventing obscenity. Which is a good thing. "
The voice of reason.  Lassez-faire is always doomed to descend into a dog eat dog world.  Community is sometimes more important - sometimes and not very often.  If it has a direct affect on real people we need to be mindful.
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Seppli

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#34  Edited By Seppli
@Alexander said:
" There needs to be censorship to some degree or else you have lots of rape games and people that are not old enough seeing things they shouldn't. Censorship isn't just about Hot Coffee, it's about preventing obscenity. Which is a good thing. "
Erm...

There are rape games. As well as there is child pornography. Just because something is forbidden, doesn't mean, it doesn't come into existence.

Also. Why shouldn't there be obscenity? And who's to decide, what's suitable or not? Just because some artist shares his sick mind with others, doesn't turn everybody else into him/her or makes them act out the art for real. That's the main point about censorship. Somebody else gets say over your life - over what you can or can't see, read, play, hear or say. That's what I have parents for. Since I'm all grown up, nobody gets to fucking tell me, whats suitable for me and that's how I like it.

The boundries, that apply to 'actions', don't apply to 'art'. Everything is possible in the realm of 'art' and everything should be allowed . Rape, Murder, Genozide - whatever. As long as it happens in the realm of the playful and artful mind, as long as it's an artificial sensation, it has to be okay. The mind may, what man mustn't. Don't mix up art with actions.
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The_A_Drain

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#35  Edited By The_A_Drain

I'm a firm believer that censorship does not make things better. Ever. And is not a good thing by any stretch of the imagination. Things that are illegal are the only forms of censoship I support however, it helps keep child pornography, rape videos, out, and to some degree I also support the censorship of these things in the media, however if that was enforced fully, some of the best crime novels on the market would be illegal or withdrawn.

I honestly think that it comes down to common sense and responsibility on the part of the person putting out the content, and the context of the content. But bordering very extreme examples I don't think anyone should have the right to censor another persons work. If someone wants to play rapelay, or the kennedy assasination game, then they have serious issues. But censoring them is wrong, if it's not what the market wants then they won't buy it. Simple as that. I don't necessarily buy the whole 'artistic merit' thing, but that doesn't mean I feel I have the right to say they shouldn't exist, nobody should have that right.

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Video_Game_King

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#36  Edited By Video_Game_King

No, no it won't. I believe we had censorship during the NES/SNES eras, and that didn't stop a lot of games from being shit. Doesn't censorship kinda limit what an artist (hey, video games are art) can do? Art is not something that should be limited, damnit!

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LordAndrew

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#37  Edited By LordAndrew
The Escapist said:
"
Only a few years after the Code's introduction, Marvel debuted some of the most iconic characters, and began to tell stories in a different way, giving their characters a complexity that proved a big hit with those who had grown tired of the alien ubermensch and billionaire playboy detectives other publishers were producing.
"
But was that a result of the censorship, or would Marvel have done that anyway?
In 1971 Marvel published three issues of The Amazing Spider-Man without the approval of the Comics Code Authority, and in a 1998 interview Stan Lee said:
I could understand them; they were like lawyers, people who take things literally and technically. The Code mentioned that you mustn't mention drugs and, according to their rules, they were right. So I didn't even get mad at them then. I said, 'Screw it' and just took the Code seal off for those three issues. Then we went back to the Code again. I never thought about the Code when I was writing a story, because basically I never wanted to do anything that was to my mind too violent or too sexy. I was aware that young people were reading these books, and had there not been a Code, I don't think that I would have done the stories any differently.
According to him, the Code did not actually influence his stories.
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Wolverine

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#38  Edited By Wolverine

Censorship isn't neccessarly bad because it promote creativity. If extreme violence in video games was partly banned developers would have to be more inovative.

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#39  Edited By cspiffo
@oldschool:

Shouting fire in a theater is illegal because it is against the code of conduct established by the theater owner who has a responsibility to the patrons of the theater to create a safe environment.  It is not "illegal" to shout fire on your own property.  That is not censorship.  It's common sense.

making a game about pedophilia is not technically illegal.  provided their are no actual underage individuals in the enactments.  Good luck selling it though.  You would have to go through underground channels of distribution.

That's the way society should work.  Self governance.  That's why we have the ESRB in America.  It is an agreement with the retailers and the customers that these games should not be sold to certain people.  Nowhere in the process does the actual government get involved.  Sure they may hoot and holler about it, but at the end of the day free speech is protected in this system.

Nobody should tell me what's good and bad for me as an adult.  And my children are my responsibility to raise.  Not the states.

BTW:  Alcohol is illegal for minors and yet they still drink it,  FREQUENTLY!  So much for laws protecting us from ourselves.
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#40  Edited By Video_Game_King
@Wolverine said:
" Censorship isn't neccessarly bad because it promote creativity. If extreme violence in video games was partly banned developers would have to be more inovative. "
No, not exactly. They'd just find the next best-selling thing and suck all the life out of that. Some of the most popular gaming trends, like animal platformers, had nothing to do with violence or creativity.
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#41  Edited By HandsomeDead
@TooWalrus said:
" It always sucks when awful games rely on explicit material as their main attribute. While it would be great if censorship killed Box Office Bust. However, more censorship would also throttle great games which use violence/sex/language effectively. Dead Space wouldn't be the same if I couldn't stomp hundreds of human corpses, and splat their dismembered limbs against the walls. "
To be fair, Dead Space was all gore and nothing else. If that game was censored, it would lose its only interesting factor other than the dynamic HUD.
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Serker

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#42  Edited By Serker

Tough choice:

More Half-Life...

More Portal...

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DuhQbnSiLo

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#43  Edited By DuhQbnSiLo

Comics are dead to the public eyes...

Why wold you want videogames to follow that

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LordAndrew

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#44  Edited By LordAndrew
@DuhQbnSiLo: I think you missed the point entirely.
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Alexander

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#45  Edited By Alexander
@Seppli said:
" Erm...

There are rape games. As well as there is child pornography. Just because something is forbidden, doesn't mean, it doesn't come into existence.

Also. Why shouldn't there be obscenity? And who's to decide, what's suitable or not? Just because some artist shares his sick mind with others, doesn't turn everybody else into him/her or makes them act out the art for real. That's the main point about censorship. Somebody else gets say over your life - over what you can or can't see, read, play, hear or say. That's what I have parents for. Since I'm all grown up, nobody gets to fucking tell me, whats suitable for me and that's how I like it.

The boundries, that apply to 'actions', don't apply to 'art'. Everything is possible in the realm of 'art' and everything should be allowed . Rape, Murder, Genozide - whatever. As long as it happens in the realm of the playful and artful mind, as long as it's an artificial sensation, it has to be okay."

Rape games are not legal where censorship is doing its job. Games that simulate rape, even if you consider them to be works of art, should not be legal and this is where we disagree. I am fine with censor screening and the decision that it's not fit for public consumption.

Obscenity in media specifically is a tendency to deprave or corrupt a significant portion of your likely audience. The likely (or target) audience for God of War III is not going to be corrupted by a scene depicting a head being torn off in great detail. But you show that to a kid of 7 and it could be disturbing for them. That is where censorship comes in. A decision is made that the imagery is obscene to people of a certain age and a classification is given. If you think that games should not be subject to classification then we clearly have fundamental differences in opinion.

Censorship is what edits out cursing in films for earlier viewing times on television and while you might find it frustrating and a blight on the art of Die Hard, it's necessary, because responsible parents would rather their kids aren't subject to that kind of language and they can't be expected to monitor their children every second of the day.

Censorship is not just up to a government either, when Solider of Fortune was released there was the option to censor the insane gore and have it password protected. That was quite a brilliant way to handle it.

It's not a case of either having censorship or not, you have a black and white view of the whole thing; it's a question of extent, using it only where necessary and having it adjust to social changes. What is deemed to be necessary is a whole other matter, but while you might support child ponrography being readily available over Netflix, or as an interactive simulation game on shelves at Gamestop, I think otherwise.
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#46  Edited By Wolverine
@Video_Game_King: That is actually a really good point. The problem is I am tired of playing first person shooters. I want to play games that make me feel things like movies and books do. What is our next step to incourage innovation?
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#47  Edited By Video_Game_King
@Wolverine said:
" @Video_Game_King: That is actually a really good point. The problem is I am tired of playing first person shooters. I want to play games that make me feel things like movies and books do. What is our next step to encourage innovation? "
Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible. Once a company does something creative, other companies won't immediately think, "This game was successful because it took risks and was creative." They'll think, "Everybody loves this one feature in that huge game; let's whore the hell outta that!" And then you end up with Awesome Possum and the new Turok.
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#48  Edited By HandsomeDead
@Video_Game_King said:
"
@Wolverine said:
" @Video_Game_King: That is actually a really good point. The problem is I am tired of playing first person shooters. I want to play games that make me feel things like movies and books do. What is our next step to encourage innovation? "
Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible. Once a company does something creative, other companies won't immediately think, "This game was successful because it took risks and was creative." They'll think, "Everybody loves this one feature in that huge game; let's whore the hell outta that!" And then you end up with Awesome Possum and the new Turok. "
Not to mention you also have that crowd of gamers who just want cheap, empty fun and anything that tries to be clever is immediately labelled as 'pretentious'.
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Wolverine

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#49  Edited By Wolverine
@HandsomeDead said:
"
@Video_Game_King said:
"
@Wolverine said:
" @Video_Game_King: That is actually a really good point. The problem is I am tired of playing first person shooters. I want to play games that make me feel things like movies and books do. What is our next step to encourage innovation? "
Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible. Once a company does something creative, other companies won't immediately think, "This game was successful because it took risks and was creative." They'll think, "Everybody loves this one feature in that huge game; let's whore the hell outta that!" And then you end up with Awesome Possum and the new Turok. "
Not to mention you also have that crowd of gamers who just want cheap, empty fun and anything that tries to be clever is immediately labelled as 'pretentious'."
I think games really have an opportunity to go main stream and be considered a serious form of media like film and books are. The first thing that has to be done is the phrase video games needs to be eradicated and we need to start calling this form of media Interactive Entertainment or IE (Not Internet Explorer xD). Then more serious innovate games need to come out that are not all action orriented and can tell a story that doesn't envolve any sort of fighting or action while telling a great story that makes you feel things without using cut scenes because cut scenes are basically the same thing as film with CG.
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Verdugo

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#50  Edited By Verdugo
@HandsomeDead said:
"
@Video_Game_King said:
"
@Wolverine said:
" @Video_Game_King: That is actually a really good point. The problem is I am tired of playing first person shooters. I want to play games that make me feel things like movies and books do. What is our next step to encourage innovation? "
Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible. Once a company does something creative, other companies won't immediately think, "This game was successful because it took risks and was creative." They'll think, "Everybody loves this one feature in that huge game; let's whore the hell outta that!" And then you end up with Awesome Possum and the new Turok. "
Not to mention you also have that crowd of gamers who just want cheap, empty fun and anything that tries to be clever is immediately labelled as 'pretentious'."
I like to have my fill of both. Which is why I appriciate games such as Okami and on the opposite side of the spectrum I appriciate something like Gears of War 2.

Of course, if everything was following a cookie-cutter system of output when it comes to making games, I'd probably lose interest in gaming eventually. People who label anything that goes outside of the mainstream as pretentious or elitist most of the time have never taken the time to play the game themselves. Innovation is good sometimes, it's what gives games variety.