#1 Posted by MordeaniisChaos (5730 posts) -

Man, that's an awful title. Damn 60 character limit. Basically, I need advice on dealing with a difficult member of a small gaming community I am a part of.

A few months ago I stopped really playing with my normal group of guys, and joined a new group. It started out as a group just to play ArmA with, but as my old group kind of stopped playing or every being on Skype, I ended up migrating to this new community. I have had a hell of a lot of fun playing with these guys and I really, really don't want to stop playing with them. Especially because it's not easy to find a community like this with a couple guys I know personally for ArmA in particular, and I don't want to have to look for another semi-serious group of dudes to play. ArmA 2 is my game right now has been for a while, and I'd like to be able to carry on that way.

There's a problem though. There's a member of the group that I've been butting heads with lately. And worse yet, he's the sort of "leader" of the group, and clearly feels entitled to that spot. Which is fine, he's certainly the guy that everyone looks to for organizing games and that shit, we don't usually play when he's not there because he's the guy we all know, and we've really only met each other through him. However, as a result of what I believe to be a feeling of entitlement, whenever you disagree with him, he basically shuts you down.

To give some examples, we have a Marine in the group (woo!) that plays ArmA with us. They got into an argument over what the military considered "suppressive fire," in the context of this guy not laying down enough fire as the Machinegunner. And in this situation, a 19 year old kid who doesn't have a lot of knowledge on the subject of military tactics. Honestly, both guys were a bit off in terms of how the Machinegunner in ArmA should operate (more fire, but not as much random fire as our "squad leader" was saying he needed to lay down, but obviously the former fucking Marine had a better idea of what his role was. But the other guy just remained completely stubborn the whole way through.

Another example occurred tonight, and is really the trigger for this post. We recently dug up SWAT 4 and started playing it on Hamachi. Now, this individual is a young LP (loss prevention) employee at a major retail chain. And from what I've heard, he's good at his job, and that's pretty impressive considering the area his store is located. But, he's just LP. He's not even really a security guy. He just stops people from stealing, that's it. So, when we start talking about tactics in SWAT, because I made a joke about how our score (there's a pretty silly score mechanic in the game that takes away points for friendly fire and lethal force, and gives points for arrests, etc) was low. I said something along the lines of "Aww man, we failed," a reference to another night (he was not present) when we played SWAT and I made a similar comment because of the "out of one hundred" format of the score reminded me of a typical high school grading scale.

He got all offended at this, probably not recognizing it as a joke, and because I also mentioned the unauthorized use of lethal force (which is questionable, I'm still not clear on what it considers unauthorized and am not sure if they fired on us first but I feel like at least most of the targets did). Again, it was all in jest, and moments after I had talked about the mission going really smoothly. So he was talking about how it's unrealistic to penalize us for using lethal force. I responded that it is actually fairly realistic as the SWAT is trained for a wide variety of missions, many of which they would prefer ended with absolutely no bloodshed. Of course, he took this and because it was a counter to his statement, completely blew it out of the water and went into his troll mode (his favored mode of operation, especially lately). He was saying that I was totally wrong and that I was trying to describe SWAT as the Peace Corps (totally false, as I made it clear that my understanding of SWAT operations is that there are a lot of different kinds of missions they go on, some of which are about violence of action and others that are trying at all costs to avoid escalation. Actually, I would argue that almost all SWAT missions are probably trying to avoid escalation to some extent, but that's besides the point. Considering that SWAT basically handles any situation that is outside of the average beat-cop's training, it seems silly to assume that all SWAT operations end with any threatening individual dead from a .223 Full Metal Jacket through the jugular just because he feels that in that situation, he would just shoot anyone with a gun the moment he saw someone with a gun. Granted, I doubt many SWAT operations end without violence, but it was bothering me that he was speaking mostly based on how he feels that he would act as an untrained civilian in that situation, and that he was unwilling to listen to a different perspective. Even one that was never claiming to be accurate.

As he got more sarcastic and troll-y, I just finally said that if he was just going to be an idiot and troll me, I would leave the game/vent for the night. He of course took this as a reason to escalate, and just said the equivalent of "try me bro." Now, I was hoping that we could just stop bickering and get on with the game. I even started talking about our planning for the mission we were about to undertake. But the instant I opened my mouth to point out that we should go heavy because the situation could present contacts with body armor of some kind, he kicked me from the Vent.

Now, I don't mind him having his point of view, and I don't mind it being different from mine. I do however mind when he acts like a stubborn, entitled 13 year old on 4Chan, because the only way he knows how to interact with people who critique his understanding of something is to start trolling them. And the guy's actually a cool guy the rest of the time. 90% of the time, I really enjoy talking to him, I enjoy playing games with him, and I want to continue to play with him. However, I have no idea how to get around the issue of his stubbornness without just giving up any time he does something unrealistic when we're trying to be realistic. And I'd like to be able to be in a situation where I can potentially be in a leadership role at some point on a mission here and there, just because it seems fun. The problem is, I don't see any of those being possible when he's going to talk to more informed people like he's the expert on the matter when in actuality he's basing all of his "knowledge" on assumptions based on how his untrained self would behave in a situation. Or just on whatever preconceived notion he has.

I'm not really very good at dealing with such people diplomatically. It pisses me off, to be honest, when a 19 year old guy that works in LP is trying to tell me that the research I've done is totally wrong. Even when I've got sources like the actual military field manuals that I've read or the former member of the military in our damned group. It's frustrating for me when the guy claims to want realism but in reality wants his own conceived version of realism. One in which as a squad/fireteam leader he doesn't need basic land navigation skills (Just the ability to read coordinates and guestimate a position would be nice, I don't even need the guy to be capable of triangulation or anything like that), or listen when I say "hey, if we're going to be splitting into fireteams at night and operating in different locations, we should make sure we have indicators (in ArmA's case, IR strobes) so we don't have blue on blue fire" and then he runs off into a field away from everyone else without communicating that movement to the sniper overwatching the situation, who nails him in the ass after asking if there was anyone moving in the field to the north. Where he was.

We have a former Marine and a future Marine (me) in the group, but he seems to think that he knows best. And at times, that can hurt the group.

So, this was a bit more of a rant than I intended, but I'm really damn frustrated, and I don't know how to deal with this. I'm not good at being nice to people like that when they are acting like that, and it's pretty difficult to do anything more than ignore a troll, which gets me nowhere. So any suggestions would be awesome.

Not really sure if this counts as general discussion or not because it's about gaming, but also kind of not, so sorry if this should be in off-topic.

#2 Edited by AlexW00d (6382 posts) -

When we had a guy like that in the GB group we got sick and I banned him, but you can't really do that I guess.

You could stage a coup? Or play with other dudes?

#3 Posted by niko555 (120 posts) -

What AlexW00d said.
There isnt really alot you can do in this situation.
But it doesnt sound like it would be hard to convince the other people in the group to just kick him out.

Buuuut it could lead to people taking sides and more drama and inevitably into world war 3.

#4 Edited by TruthTellah (9395 posts) -

It sounds like he may sense that you do want to take a more leadership role and he's afraid of losing the power that makes him feel so needed. So, he gets defensive toward counter-arguments as some kind of affront to his authority. He's young and cocky, right? It's understandable that he might allow his insecurity to get the best of him sometimes.

Online
#5 Edited by SerHulse (685 posts) -

I would bring this up to other members of your gaming group, see what they think of him.

If you feel you would have majority support, confront him. Or, alternatively, you said he's the one that usually organises the games, gets you all together. So start organising some games without him, slog through games with him and wait for him to really piss somebody off (it sounds like he's getting more standoffish and confrontational, it'll only be a matter of time before he pushes someone too far)

Apart from that, try not to openly question him I guess. Some people really don't like being told they're wrong, especially among their friends. Doubly so if they think they are a de-facto leader of sorts.

#6 Posted by FourWude (2261 posts) -

This is why the types of people that get drawn to military games are the cesspit of humanity. Self entitled, superior, smug ass, try hard, anal retentive assholes.

#7 Posted by OfficeGamer (1087 posts) -

@alexw00d said:

When we had a guy like that in the GB group we got sick and I banned him

You banned the leader duder?

#8 Posted by audioBusting (1639 posts) -

Calm down yo it's just video games. In my experience with people like this you better just appease them, there's no point of defending yourself and getting into an argument because things will just escalate pointlessly. Just enjoy the video games man. If he's wrong about military/law enforcement protocols and he doesn't want to admit it then sucks to be him, it's not your problem it's video games time.

You guys should probably start having other members help organize the games too, just to not give that responsibility entirely to him and practically making him the leader of the group. That'd be fair for all I think. Also if he's still difficult to play with, you guys can slowly phase him out of the gaming group haha. By the way good luck being a Marine in the future duder.

#9 Posted by FierceDeity (358 posts) -

@fourwude said:

This is why the types of people that get drawn to military games are the cesspit of humanity. Self entitled, superior, smug ass, try hard, anal retentive assholes.

Eh, sounds no worse than the typical MOBA. Or any other competitive game for that matter.

#10 Edited by Karkarov (3229 posts) -

Uh he is a 19 year old kid. Have him stand in like with the other something teen kids who think they are hot shit on the internet.... it is about 23 billion miles long. My advice, talk to the other dudes when he isn't around. You make it sound like none of you know each other without this kid and none of you can set up a game. I am sure you can figure a way out to make it work without the 19 year old dude.

#11 Posted by Wheady (106 posts) -

try talking to him in a separate vent channel and let him know whats going on. if he continues to be a dick at least u tried to be the bigger guy and at that point i would let the others know that ur leaving and let them know why. who knows, maybe they feel the same way and just dont wanna speak up. games r supposed to be fun and if someone is getting in the way of that fun, walk away, lol.

#12 Edited by MordeaniisChaos (5730 posts) -

@audiobusting said:

Calm down yo it's just video games. In my experience with people like this you better just appease them, there's no point of defending yourself and getting into an argument because things will just escalate pointlessly. Just enjoy the video games man. If he's wrong about military/law enforcement protocols and he doesn't want to admit it then sucks to be him, it's not your problem it's video games time.

You guys should probably start having other members help organize the games too, just to not give that responsibility entirely to him and practically making him the leader of the group. That'd be fair for all I think. Also if he's still difficult to play with, you guys can slowly phase him out of the gaming group haha. By the way good luck being a Marine in the future duder.

This issue with this argument is that we play very tactical games, such as ArmA 2 (with ACE and some other mods that make it even more tactical) and SWAT 4 so when he's being totally unrealistic or thinking he knows all, he gets people killed, which means sitting out for 30 minutes or longer because missions can take a long ass time, at least in ArmA.
Many thanks. Hopefully I don't need it. lol.

@fourwude said:

This is why the types of people that get drawn to military games are the cesspit of humanity. Self entitled, superior, smug ass, try hard, anal retentive assholes.

Oh shut up. Those guys are every-fucking-where. None of the guys I have played with or seen play have been that way. The opposite in fact, really easy going as long as you aren't being a dumb ass or a douche.

@niko555 said:

What AlexW00d said.

There isnt really alot you can do in this situation.

But it doesnt sound like it would be hard to convince the other people in the group to just kick him out.

Buuuut it could lead to people taking sides and more drama and inevitably into world war 3.

Thing is, they've all known him longer than I have, and most of them will just want to avoid drama. And probably would rather keep the group together without me than without him. And I don't want to split up the group, because I don't dislike the guy, he's my friend. That's why I'm trying to find a way to work around this so we can continue to play games together. We're a small, tight group, so losing even one guy kind of cripples us in a lot of ways. I'm not looking to lose a friend. If I didn't mind pissing the guy off and breaking things up in the group, I'd just do my usual thing, and be blunt and tell him to straighten out his shit and stop being a prick about that stuff because he's dead wrong and is about the 4th best informed on any of that shit.

@alexw00d said:

When we had a guy like that in the GB group we got sick and I banned him

You banned the leader duder?

Actually I think there totally was a big coupe in the GB PC Group. It was remade and everything near the end of last year or something.

#13 Posted by Mirado (1049 posts) -

Talk to the other people, if they're on your side, just set up games without him? If they aren't...don't play with them?

It seems like you are getting into a situation where frustration > fun, and to me that seems like a losing proposition. Even if you have to come up with a different group to play with, it seems preferable to sticking with this guy. You aren't going to change his personality, so your only other option is to let him go off on whatever incorrect tangent he likes and never bother to correct him, because you sure as well won't get him to shut up. You aren't going to win a war of words if he's got the ability to kick you out of the channel whenever he likes. Also, that still won't change the fact that he may run off and get people killed (which makes me wonder why you still find it fun to play with this guy, if he has a habit of causing 30 min+ respawns out of stupidity), but it'll at least keep the heat off of you.

First step is to see what everyone else is thinking. If they're all fine with him, it'll make any change untenable.

#14 Posted by h0lgr (911 posts) -

Your first mistake is using Ventrilo.
On a more serious note, tell him to fuck off.
Also if he's being such a giant cock like you're describing, the other people you guys play with would probably agree with you, even if this cat is some sort of organizer type.

If he can't play a cooperative game of having fun together, then what does he bring to your group?
If there's no fun to be had when he's around, remove whatever element which is causing you to not have fun. In this case, this unsavory character.
Set up your own game. Name the lobby "No cunts allowed", and kick him when he tries to join, until he apologizes for his crappy behaviour. I'm sure the other pals playing will be on your side.

#15 Edited by Veektarius (4968 posts) -

Here's a lesson not everyone learns in life, and one that's hard to act on even once you've learned it if you're the argumentative sort.

If you know you're right, and the other guy is unable to admit that he's wrong, there's no point in arguing about something. Simply end the argument preemptively. You can do this by saying "I disagree, but I'm not going to argue about this." An important component of this strategy is that you must give no reason for your disagreement! Even if you state that you do not want to argue, if you give something to argue against, there will be an argument.

This will not make your 'friend' less of a jackass. All it will do is make your confrontational encounters with him shorter. But hey, that's a plus, right?

#16 Posted by Branthog (5592 posts) -

@fourwude said:

This is why the types of people that get drawn to military games are the cesspit of humanity. Self entitled, superior, smug ass, try hard, anal retentive assholes.

Except they're not. Some of those people are drawn to it, but they're also drawn to crap like COD and GoW and everything else. There are also organized, polite, friendly, nice people who play together. My brother and I (mid 20s and mid 30s) both plan to play a lot of ArmA3 when it really starts to roll out and I hope that we'll end up playing with people more like @mordeaniischaos than the kind of guy he describes (who, to be fair, may also just be an immature 19 -- as much of an asshole I am in my mid 30s, I was surely far worse as a teenager).

#17 Posted by kishan6 (1914 posts) -

This is so dumb

#18 Posted by Fredchuckdave (5983 posts) -
#19 Edited by I_Stay_Puft (3685 posts) -

I don't get why you can't play without him around? If you fairly get a long with the others in the group just skype them and slowly phase the other dude out. Also you're kinda butting heads with a 19 year old, I'm not saying there aren't any mature 19 year olds out there but when I was 19 I definitely thought I knew more then I did.

#20 Posted by Lego_My_Eggo (1068 posts) -

Ask the other members of the group what they think of him, start organizing things yourself, when he is arguing to a former Marine (or anyone else) just ask him straight up what makes him more informed then the professional who did the job for years and agree with them and back em up if they are right, and if he kicks you off vent for stupid crap (not sure how vent works) make your own room so he can't pull that bullshit. And it would be best just to not argue with him unless it will mess up the mission, because if he thinks he is correct you will not change his point of view. And even worse, if your prove him wrong he will just twist the topic into bullshit before he admits he was wrong and be pissed off for making him look bad, or just be pissed and not admit he was wrong.

Basically just try and make sure he isn't in control, and that the group as a whole makes decisions rather then the one guy with a bad temper.

#21 Posted by Kidavenger (3599 posts) -

Send him a link to this thread; that's how we did it in WoW.

#22 Posted by laserbolts (5340 posts) -

@fourwude said:

This is why the types of people that get drawn to military games are the cesspit of humanity. Self entitled, superior, smug ass, try hard, anal retentive assholes.

Simply not true.

#23 Posted by Slag (4723 posts) -

@mordeaniischaos: dude that blows. I don't blame you for being upset.

Sounds like this kid is very immature and insecure. Unfortunately there probably won't be much you can do to fix that. He has to figure this stuff out by himself

The way I see it you've got 4 choices

1)- get him 1 on 1, with no other players around and attempt to talk him down. Demonstrate to him you are not a threat and are on his side. Be non confrontational and use diplomatic language explain you don't want trouble and just want to have a good time. I find appealing to vanity works pretty well in situations like this (e.g. "you're a good player man and our leader, we need to keep your cool" even if that isn't completely true).

2)- just suck it up and ignore it and hope he changes and/or pisses somebody else off.

3)- say eff it and join another group

4) - say eff it, create your own group and try to poach the guys from the group you like

One thing I would not do is challenge him in front of the other guys. That will make him even harder to deal with and will create drama no one will enjoy. That I would think would end badly for you.

#24 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4866 posts) -

Find out where he lives and beat the fuck out of him.

Worked for that one guy who got trolled by a kid in Call of Duty.