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#1 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -

Ive been a long time JRPG fan having played most of the Final Fantasy games and i really enjoyed them .
 
 However i think its time they moved on . 
 
Tales of Vesperia is defiantly in the direction that new JRPGs should follow . Now dont get me wrong its not perfect and still has some old cliche's that need to die...but the combat system is a much better way of playing a JRPG and is really engaging . 
 
Now FF13 has just been released and i am slightly disappointed ....i think they should ditch the entering in commands and waiting until they are carried out and have a  proper real time fighting system . 
 
Now i know most of you will probably disagree with me but this is how i feel .

#2 Posted by MikkaQ (10288 posts) -

I actually agree, but maybe actually taking the combat further, because while it's fun for a while, it can get a bit boring after a 50 hour game.

#3 Posted by CornontheCobbe (2645 posts) -

Hmm... have never played Tales of Vesperia so i would not know what to compare it to... Would it be like Final Fantasy 12 or so? Or Chrono Trigger?
 
If so then, maybe this is the direction that they should take JRPG's.

#4 Posted by eroticfishcake (7786 posts) -

Huh. I've played pretty much every JRPG there is (okay, well ALL of them) but the Tales series is something that seems to avoid me. I should really pick it up sometime.

#5 Posted by Pie (7099 posts) -

You know what has really good combat? Bad Company 2

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#6 Edited by sixghost (1679 posts) -

I thought the combat in Tales of Vesperia was really boring. I still prefer the old school turn based ATB systems like in FF9 and Persona 4. Every time an RPG tries to get into real time combat it's either way too hectic with all the shit you have to do in real time, or it gets dumbed down completely. I was really enjoying the story and everything else in Tales until I just got too sick of the combat like 10-15 hours in.

Mass Effect 2 has the best combat in an RPG so far.

#7 Posted by Shinri (534 posts) -

Tales is a great series, often overshadowed by larger franchises... which is a shame. Tales of Graces is being localized and hopefully released sometime this year, that looks awesome. Although I am a big fan of Tales, I don't think all JRPG's should move in that direction - different strokes for different folks. People who want real-time, half fighting game combat will play Tales.
#8 Edited by Coombs (3449 posts) -

I want them to ditch the current system to and go back to the same style of system they used for the first 7 (or 8) 
Well, Ok not the same system as 1 but you get my meaning.
Sadly I know this will never happen, But I can dream.
 
The tales system is the only one I have played in recent years that I have really enjoyed though.

#9 Posted by Bobby_The_Great (1004 posts) -
@CornontheCobbe:
It actually plays more like a beat-em-up action game. It's pretty fun combat.
#10 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -
@Pie: Dude whats that game ?
#11 Posted by CannibalFerox (282 posts) -

Let's not be too hasty. Why change all of them? 
 
I've played very little Tales games. I played about 10 hours each of Tales of Symphonia (the first one) and Tales of Destiny 2. I've also played the demo for Tales of Vesparia. I really enjoyed all of them but for some reason ran out of time to finish them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Vesparia allowed you to set the actions of party members in advance while keeping the option to control individuals during combat. Dragon Age: Origins has this as well. However, DA:O allows for a much higher degree of tuning party member behaviors.  Your point is validated, I think, by the successful trend in western-developed RPGs like DA:O and recent JRPGs like FFXII (gambits). 
  
I agree with you in that we should hope to see more games like this from Japan. However, I'm not ready to completely give up on turn-based RPGs. I know that a lot of people dislike the so-called "I hit you then you hit me" combat. Well-developed (meaning you don't just press X over and over) turned-based systems are not like this and can be very exciting. The Persona series (and all other SMT games) are a good example. Check out the Persona 4 endurance run and you'll see many, many moments where planning the moves of the party members, taking into account which personas were equipped and by whom, who will have the ability to heal, who will be effective against certain enemies, etc. You get the picture. Persona 3 and Persona 4 sold and reviewed very well. I really enjoy playing this kind of turn-based game because of the 'in combat' strategy required.

#12 Posted by Whisperkill (2969 posts) -

Its, really button mashy though

#13 Posted by SquirrelGOD (502 posts) -

I agree on the gameplay front, but could they also do something about making the character design a little less...dumb?  I do love a good JRPG, and I've really dug the Tales series, but the characters just seem to look lamer and lamer with each game.  Though, I admit that this could just be because I'm in the "Anime is for jerks" camp.

#14 Posted by Pie (7099 posts) -
@turbomonkey138 said:
" @Pie: Dude whats that game ? "
Its JRPG with real time combat. 
You have four dudes in your party each with a special ability (one has a rocket launcher for example) and as you play you unlock new stuff rather than purchasing it. 
Its very combat focused with very little exporation
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#15 Posted by sixghost (1679 posts) -
@Bobby_The_Great said:
" @CornontheCobbe: It actually plays more like a beat-em-up action game. It's pretty fun combat. "
I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say beat em up. If you mean something like god of war, then I must have been playing a different game than you. But if you mean beat em up like the old side scrolling games like final fight, than yeah.
#16 Posted by dbz1995 (4790 posts) -

I disagree. Paper Mario, bro!

#17 Posted by Skald (4367 posts) -

I think they should be more like the Mario & Luigi series: no anime-styled characters, and lots of witty, relevant and hilarious writing. The platforming elements were great, too.

#18 Posted by Wright (637 posts) -

Yeah, the tales series has my favorite rpg combat system. Though it can still get tedious at times.

#19 Posted by vidiot (2737 posts) -

Real time combat is not something exclusive to the Tales series, nor is it something "new" in JRPG history. These mechanics have been around for years for multiple franchises, Tales get's notoriety due to their steady stream of releases on consoles, and the annoying general lack of steady streamed releases from other JRPG developers on consoles, aside from anything portable.
 
There's a lot to love about Vesperia's battle system, but I disagree profusely that we should abandon all turn-based style combat considering how it's still wildly used with both and enjoyed in both JRPG's and WRPG's. Personally I really like Final Fantasy XIII's battle system. There's a lot that's automated, but you really do have to be on your toes for many of the fights. 
 
What Square can learn from the Tales series is not exactly it's combat mechanics, but probably it's acceptance of tired and true concepts of exploration. 
Like towns. :/

#20 Posted by Azteck (7449 posts) -

Isn't it that kind of system that defines the JRPG genre? That's how I've always seen it at least.

#21 Posted by Jazz (2269 posts) -

Turn based combat worked in Persona 4. 
I love the Tales games, but give me a decent SMT game any day of the week. 
They both have their place. It would be nice if you could choose which you prefer, however. 

#22 Posted by TheOGVandalvideo (142 posts) -

No, I think modern JRPGs should be like Vandal Hearts 1. We need moar SRPG games. 
 
PS: Mmmmm End of Eternity.

#23 Posted by Rallier (1739 posts) -

Hell no. I want to be able to strategicly plan my attacks instead of mashing buttons.

#24 Posted by ImperiousRix (2963 posts) -

I agree. 
I think the main problem with FFXIII and many modern JRPGs isn't that they're bad game, simply that they haven't really evolved or changed in any real meaningful ways.

#25 Posted by Atlas (2445 posts) -

I agree with the OP in so much as that I thought Tales of Vesperia was a great game, but perhaps the combat went a little too far in subverting traditions of the genre. It did just become a little too button mashy, or maybe oversimplified, and the battles never quite had the epic scale of battles in other series. However, and I've said this before, it's way fucking better than games like Lost Odyssey. The thing about LO is that all the boss fights were fantastic because it was fun to wear down a big enemy and use tactics to beat it, but when you have a long load time, long battle animations and a really slow pace to every single fucking battle, it just becomes so tedious. For the small guys you just want to blow through them, which Tales of Vesperia let you do, and let you do well. It's a compromise, and Tales made the right choice.
 
However, there is middle ground. Eternal Sonata had turn-based combat but each turn was in real-time, so I didn't really feel like a turn-based game. ES had really fun combat, both in little battles and boss fights, but it wasn't as tactical as ToV or LO. I'd still say ES had the best combat system.

#26 Posted by Addfwyn (1922 posts) -

Actually, I'd rather them continue in the vein of the way FF games keep a certain core mechanic, but expand upon that in new and unique ways in every game.  Battle systems have been one of the long-standing appeals of Final Fantasy, even since day 1, it's always been something unique.  I don't think JRPGs should go for 1 "style' of combat.  Keep it fresh, different, and interesting.   

#27 Edited by ryanwho (12082 posts) -

That is the opposite of what they should do. Tales games kind of sum up what's wrong with the genre perfectly, with their 3+ iterations a year with the tiniest of refinements each time. Fuck that. There were 6 Tales games in 2006. Nauseating.

#28 Posted by Symphony (1912 posts) -

"I think all games of this genre should be like this game I like. Seriously, they won't get stale and we won't get people saying 'Such and such genre has stagnated because they're all the same.'"
 
It's great to see how FFXIII has turned many JRPG fans into dumb thread posting idiots as foolish as the people posting threads that bash the genre.

#29 Posted by Shirogane (3573 posts) -
@ryanwho said:
"That is the opposite of what they should do. Tales games kind of sum up what's wrong with the genre perfectly, with their 3+ iterations a year with the tiniest of refinements each time. Fuck that. There were 6 Tales games in 2006. Nauseating. "

Whoah, really? There were 6? I'm not a fan of tales games obviously. The only one i played and finished was...er...Phantasia. 
 
I personally didn't like the system of Vesperia, or Symphonia for that matter. Other more actiony JRPGs are fine, but for some reason the tales series doesn't grab me. 
 
That said, FF series should go back to the older systems, pre-X. There aren't many of those anymore, cause everybody's going for different stuff. Well, there is Blue Dragon, but i couldn't stand the story and characters, especially Maro. Gah, everytime he opened his mouth i wanted to kill something.
#30 Posted by mutha3 (4985 posts) -

No.

#31 Posted by Cornman89 (1579 posts) -

If you're saying combat in JRPGs should generally be more action-oriented, I'm with you.

#32 Posted by Hailinel (24783 posts) -

Yet another thread based on the subjective argument that turn-based/menu system battles are inherently bad.  I can feel the ignorance radiating from within.

#33 Posted by JerichoBlyth (1044 posts) -

In my eyes, Tales of Vesperia borrowed a lot from past Final Fantasy games like the seventh and ninth installments...however, it was also unique enough to stand out on its own and this is why Tales is my RPG of the decade (last decade that is)

#34 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -
@Hailinel said:
" Yet another thread based on the subjective argument that turn-based/menu system battles are inherently bad.  I can feel the ignorance radiating from within. "
I didnt say they were bad ...however i do think that Modern JRPGs should have a real time system . F13 system is not what i want ...
#35 Posted by Shinryu (245 posts) -
@turbomonkey138 said:
" Ive been a long time JRPG fan having played most of the Final Fantasy games and i really enjoyed them .
 
 However i think its time they moved on . 
 
Tales of Vesperia is defiantly in the direction that new JRPGs should follow . Now dont get me wrong its not perfect and still has some old cliche's that need to die...but the combat system is a much better way of playing a JRPG and is really engaging .   Now FF13 has just been released and i am slightly disappointed ....i think they should ditch the entering in commands and waiting until they are carried out and have a  proper real time fighting system .   Now i know most of you will probably disagree with me but this is how i feel . "

You guessed it, I totally disagree with you. Although i've got a sealed copy of Tales of Vesperia around here to bust out once FFXIII takes its course so maybe i'll change my tune.
#36 Edited by Cornman89 (1579 posts) -
@Hailinel: @Symphony: Jesus Christ, there's not a single post in this thread that even implies that.
 
 @ImperiousRix said:
"I agree. 

I think the main problem with FFXIII and many modern JRPGs isn't that they're bad game, simply that they haven't really evolved or changed in any real meaningful ways. "

...Huh.
#37 Posted by xyzygy (9988 posts) -

I agree somewhat but I don't think that all franchises should move on that way. Why not keep some games turn based, for those who like it? I personally love the FFXIII battle system and even after 24 hours into the game it's still growing on me.

#38 Edited by Rockanomics (1150 posts) -

I've been thinking of something for a while about RPGs and it was recently brought up on the Joystiq podcast. Now, I'm not really a fan of RPGs anymore, I wish I was, but I just can't get into them. So my point may not be applicable. 
 
So RPGs are based on stats and numbers and math and such, why? Well it was because back in the day you were playing pen+paper and so that's the only way it could really work. 
 
But we have computers now! Real fast ones! If we can simulate a firefight, or a rally race, why not a sword fight, or magic or whatever these crazy RPGs do these days? 
 
I understand that the foundation of the pen+paper has been built up super high and nuanced, and a lot of people like those specific features, but I guess it's not for me. 
 
I just feel that these incredible stories and realized worlds are being held back by guys automatically whacking each other with giant swords that are apparently as deadly as nerf bats.

#39 Posted by BabyChooChoo (4504 posts) -

I agree with you, but from my perspective, Japan is a very....traditional....country in terms of entertainment. Let's take anime for example.
 
Every season, tons of anime(10+ shows?) are released. Out of those, maybe 1 or 2 try something new and exciting, but the majority have themes that have been used and beaten to death before. It's the same with their games. Every now and then you get one completely different from the rest, but more than likely they follow formulas used before.
 
Those formulaic shows and games aren't always bad, but they aren't always a good thing either. I think it will be a long time before we start to see any major evolution and diversity, but I think everyone will agree the sooner the better.

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#40 Posted by Hailinel (24783 posts) -
@turbomonkey138 said:
" @Hailinel said:
" Yet another thread based on the subjective argument that turn-based/menu system battles are inherently bad.  I can feel the ignorance radiating from within. "
I didnt say they were bad ...however i do think that Modern JRPGs should have a real time system . F13 system is not what i want ... "
Real-time does not equate to being modern.
#41 Posted by oldschool (7264 posts) -
@Rallier said:
" Hell no. I want to be able to strategicly plan my attacks instead of mashing buttons. "
Exactly what I love in a JRPG.  I like to take my time and put thought in it (kind of like chess).  Not to say I dislike real-time battles, it is just that the hectic nature at times just ends up mashing the controller and I don't always like that.  I love Fire emblem  because I thoroughly think through the game, but I still loved Tales of Symphonia, including the battles. 
 
I say leave things much the way they are - many different variations and styles on different games.  I'll just take each as they are and if they get it wrong and it sucks, well, that is the price of trying something new.
#42 Posted by Delta_Ass (3279 posts) -

I really liked the real time fighting system in ME2. Just sayin'.

#43 Posted by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -
@Symphony said:
"It's great to see how FFXIII has turned many JRPG fans into dumb thread posting idiots as foolish as the people posting threads that bash the genre. "
Truer words have never been written on these forums. 
#44 Posted by Yummylee (21642 posts) -


I'd also like for alot more of the Tales series to actually be released in the UK >=/

Always wanted to play Tales of the Abyss/Legendia.

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#45 Edited by SilvarusLupus (310 posts) -

Why should we make games all the same way? I like variety, thank you very much. Some games work well in real time, and other work better in turn-based combat. 
*looks at avvy* That's a good example of a game that works well in turn-based style.

#46 Posted by lucas_kelly (769 posts) -

Sure it real time, but its not very exciting and engaging. Tales of Vesperia's combat got boring pretty quickly, Final Fantasy XIII has you using tactics and strategy, not just brute force. 

#47 Posted by DJL (202 posts) -

Meh, I'm fine with either turn-based or real-time. 

#48 Posted by Astras (973 posts) -
@sixghost: The ATB system in ff9 was terrible.. i can remember queuing up about 6 moves in advance because my move selections started lagging behind the current execute of commands so I had to start guessing about what heals to throw... it just got stupid! Having 3 party members instead of 4, or reducing the animation times of abilities would of made more sense!
#49 Posted by JB16 (745 posts) -

I have to say, I think FF13 has one of the best combat systems in a Jrpg to date. I love how I can que up my abilities and I love how the game forces me to constantly change paradigms so I can use my party to their full potential.

#50 Posted by Aljosa15 (315 posts) -

More like Tales of Vesperia, and NOTHING like Tales of Symphonia.