#151 Posted by Gonmog (652 posts) -

@MormonWarrior: Yeah that was one of the big questions,who gets to decide what a "violent video game" is. And what will be alowd in video games.

Not sure what your questions are, but i think you mean if there are laws in place for movies? No there are no laws. They follow the same guidlines as games do. No laws in place so movie makers can still take risks and theaters are not afraid to show the R rated movies if a few under age kids get in cause they wont get fined out the ass.

#152 Edited by darkdragonsoul99 (128 posts) -
@Revenant86: unorganized lol the majority are just as organized as the mob ever was. If said black market would arise I think I'd have to get in on the ground floor I like the idea  being a billionaire. 
#153 Posted by Revenant86 (166 posts) -
@darkdragonsoul99:  your right, i was just trolling. 
#154 Posted by DoctorWelch (2817 posts) -

@Gonmog

Wait a second. So all you people think that if they do this you are some how going to see M rated games disappear and people are going to stop stocking them on shelves or carrying them at all and then people will stop making them? Wow...hahahaha, that's seriously hilarious. I'm not trying to make fun of you, I just think its super funny and ridiculous that people actually think that's even a remote possibility. Also the fact that people are using porn as the only example is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. Yeah it maybe isnt exactly the same, but you cant go see an R rated movie if you are under 17 so what is the difference with this? There isnt really much of a difference at all. People are crying and peeing themselves over something that isnt even a big deal.

I dont even know why you brought up walmart. Maybe you watched that little documentary about walmart basically driving rubbermaid out of business or something, but I dont see why you think walmart has some kind of stranglehold on every product ever made. I mean have you even been to a walmart and looked at the games section? There isnt really that much to choose from and what you do have is one or two brand new releases, a couple of really good selling games, and the rest are sports games or lego games or some dumb shit. Its not like if walmart suddenly stopped selling games that games would take a hit. There are so many other places to buy games that walmart would actually be stupid to stop selling M rated games.

Lastly, even if every store ever stopped stocking M rated games well than I say go for it. I want an all digital future anyway and if this is the thing that pushes that into existence than so be it. Kids cant have credit cards so its perfect. Retailers refuse to put M games on shelves so companies go to day 1 downloads and bam, there you go, I never have to go out to a stupid ass game stop and deal with some idiot trying to explain to me why battlefield 3 is going to be awesome when half the shit he says is incorrect and I probably. know more about the games they are selling than half the employees in that stupid place.

So in the end, I see a win win win. Either it doesnt pass and things keep on going the way they are, it does pass and things keep on going the way they are, or it does pass and it forces the all digital future to come sooner than expected. I really dont see why people are freaking out.

#155 Posted by Revenant86 (166 posts) -
@DoctorWelch:  most  gamers are under 18, if this passes mw3 will flop
#156 Posted by WindFall259 (397 posts) -

Politics!

#157 Edited by TheJudge (37 posts) -

Bah .. the world ends in Dec .. so who cares what they decide :) 
 
P.S. Maybe the court could concern itself with more important matters. I'm bored of all the debate over video games. If you don't like them ... don't play them... the end.

#158 Edited by darkdragonsoul99 (128 posts) -
@DoctorWelch said:

@Gonmog

Wait a second. So all you people think that if they do this you are some how going to see M rated games disappear and people are going to stop stocking them on shelves or carrying them at all and then people will stop making them? Wow...hahahaha, that's seriously hilarious. I'm not trying to make fun of you, I just think its super funny and ridiculous that people actually think that's even a remote possibility. Also the fact that people are using porn as the only example is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. Yeah it maybe isnt exactly the same, but you cant go see an R rated movie if you are under 17 so what is the difference with this?

 
There is no law against R rated movies only X rated movies porn. You cannot go out and buy a m rated game when your under 17 any more then you can go watch a R rated movie and for both the same reason. Market self regulation.  
 
A movie theater is not fined for minors getting in to see a R rated movie. R rated movies are not illegal to sell to a minor the stores simply have a policy of not selling to them. It's easier to get a R rated movie for a minor then a M rated game by the way this isn't just gonna effect M rated games T rated games are violent too. 
 
The reason we are using porn as the comparison is because it is the only comparison it is the only thing with such a law that falls under the entertainment sector.  
#159 Posted by YukoAsho (2248 posts) -
@ninjalegend said:
@YukoAsho: Curious, how do you feel about the loose interpretation and divination made by the courts that fly in the face of the constitution. I don't think two wrongs make a right. It is up to the people to strongly voice their opinions and have things changed correctly, or not at all. That's my take.
Oh I agree with you.  I wish people cared enough about politics and that politicians had enough balls to go through the amendment process.  People in the former Soviet republics and in places like Egypt have shown their willingness to stand up for dignity and the rule of law, why not America?
#160 Posted by darkdragonsoul99 (128 posts) -
@YukoAsho: That's easy the average american doesn't care if it doesn't obviously effect directly. 
#161 Posted by Gonmog (652 posts) -

@DoctorWelch: Brought up Walmart cause they did effect games. We have DVD cases for our games because of them. Look back to the last gen when Nintendo tried to use a new smaller case for Gamecube games,, Walmart said they would not carry them because they did not have the shelves for the smaller cases.

And R rated movies are not LAW bound. They are in the same boat as games are right now. And it is very hard to get M rated games. I had to have my mom buy CS;S cause i did not have a ID to show the clerk.

#162 Posted by YukoAsho (2248 posts) -
@darkdragonsoul99 said:
@YukoAsho: That's easy the average american doesn't care if it doesn't obviously effect directly. 
And that is why America will die one day.  Maybe not in our lives, but possibly in the lives of our children.
#163 Edited by Jumanji (466 posts) -

I think a verdict for Brown would be positive for games. The form might actually advance when catering to children is no longer an option, and we might see some truly mature games emerge.

PS you can read the oral arguments here: http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/eanf/

#164 Posted by OppressiveStink (366 posts) -

@DoctorWelch:

If the big box retailers get a fine for selling to underage people (and some underage people WILL get to buy it, the people working the register are human after all) there's a pretty good chance they won't stock the product so they won't get fined. Rated M games are a small part of the profit margin for big box retailers, a majority of their game sales are T and lower so if there was a cost/benefit analysis over the chance of getting charged 1000USD for every violation or just making sure there are no violations, the big box retailers (Walmart/Best Buy) would no longer carry M rated games. This is the reason why there is no pornographic(or NC17 even) material available outside the internet, porn shops and non-chain video rental stores.

You may ask yourself if this matters, and I will tell you yes. A lot about the retail business is product visibility and a majority of sales still channel through those retailers. Keep in mind we(the people on this forum) are not the average video game buyer and are more informed than the average consumer so store visibility may be the only way that some people find a product is available.

How does this effect us? Big name AAA games cost a metric shit-ton of money to make and in order to recoup those costs, they need as many people to buy it as possible. If those big retailers won't carry the games because of possible fines, this means the venue for sales of certain games wouldn't be as wide. This would impact the amount spent on a game, what games are developed and availability of some games. So, if you do this "For the children" it will DEFINITELY impact the games you play.

This is how business works, it's pretty cut-and-dried.

#165 Posted by darkdragonsoul99 (128 posts) -
@YukoAsho: Oh that's approaching  faster then you think if we lose the reserve currency  the only thing propping our country up we'll go bankrupt. They are already suggesting a independent reserve currency for international trade  already. The US dollar being the currant de facto  reserve currency for international trade.  
#166 Posted by TheDudeOfGaming (6115 posts) -

Have fun Americans.
I'm so bad.

#167 Posted by Gonmog (652 posts) -

@OppressiveStink: I really dont think us saying that is making anyone understand....what we need is a smart motivated person that loves games but understands laws and what not to step forward and help...lol

#168 Posted by darkdragonsoul99 (128 posts) -
@Gonmog: I'm about to give up too
#169 Posted by HotSauceMagik (277 posts) -
@DoctorWelch:  You are mostly correct in you ideas, but the fact is that any regulation that is government driven is a direct violation of our rights to consume media, whatever the "rating" may be.   The game stores are doing a fine job restricting "M" rated media to younger folk and it should be left at that.  Exceptions should be taken on a case-by-case basis.  End of "epidemic".  problem solved.
#170 Posted by CitizenJP (1177 posts) -

u crazy for that one, America.

#171 Posted by VisariLoyalist (3091 posts) -

If Scalia holds true to his libertarianism on this one I will gain a great deal of respect for him that he's lost with me over the years.

#172 Edited by Chris_Ihao (103 posts) -

Freedom of speech in the home of the free just isnt what it used to be. And what double standards. Blood sports, violent porn and brutal action movies? Heeey, thats okay.

#173 Posted by Isaiah (178 posts) -

Well shit, Patrick is turning out to be an honest to god news man.  I have to be honest his emo foppish hair style made me underestmate him.
#174 Posted by BlackjackCF (21 posts) -
@DivineCC: Most stores do comply with ESRB ratings, I believe. Although I'm not really sure how well regulated the ESRB ratings are.
#175 Posted by ninjalegend (476 posts) -
@YukoAsho: I guess I'm just a fool who keeps believing in his country and the people in it. I always thought that maybe the next generation could clean up the mess mine could not. I've always held out hope that with education, we could become great again. After reading some of these comments here, my hopes for a more educated, informed generation have been all but completely dashed. I shall remain a fool, however, and hold out hope for a luminary that may lead my fellow Americans to having an interest in something other than reality shows, and what is affecting them this instant.
#176 Posted by Ragdrazi (2258 posts) -

Fingers crossed people.

#177 Posted by smatticus (53 posts) -

i feel it is because games are still viewed as "children's entertainment" that we have this issue. Too many are disgusted by what they see in videogames because they see a CHILD playing it (despite an M rating, and the fact that their PARENTS approved the purchase) but very few times has a game made me feel uncomfortable by its content because IT'S A GAME. Whereas a show like "The Shield" made me uncomfortable MANY times through its depiction of rape, murder, child abuse, torture etc. A game is fake, and presented in an incredibly fake manner, so no connection is made on my part. the show is still obviously fake but it involves real people so the connection is more profane. On top of that kids have access to WAY more disturbing and obscene material on the internet, television, and movies, and books. Also, how many games involve that kind of content? for the most part it's just violence. very few games involve sex and only one ever involved an "interactive" sex game and you had to hack the game to play it. in all my years of gaming i never saw a game that was "obscene" just tons that were trying to be shocking but were so bad that no one ever noticed them. 
 
But if they do pass this we still don't really know what the endgame will be. i think the industry is overreacting to this. i'm not saying it won't affect things, but until a decision is MADE we won't know what will happen to the industry. several countries already have similar policies in effect and they seem to be doing just fine so i'm gonna chill and wait to see how this all plays out. i suggest everyone else do the same

#178 Posted by Korolev (1800 posts) -

I'm not too worried - I've read the initial opinions of some of the Supreme Court Justices. Most seemed to find the State of California's arguments to be of poor quality - and indeed, the state's arguments were scatter shot and of a hodge-podge nature. They didn't define exactly what "violence" was. And if the characters just respawn all the time, is it really "murder"? A number of the justices were very sceptical of the State's claims. So, going by that, and by the Supreme Court's reluctance to touch upon anything even remotely connected with your first amendment, and given the fact that almost every single other judge disagrees with the state, this law will probably not pass.

But even if it does, it doesn't spell the end for video games. We have censorship laws in Australia - our ratings standards are enforced by the government, and they do fine stores which sell games to minors. Hasn't killed the video game industry. Plus, few games get banned. I could play Prototype and Fallout New Vegas without problems. So while any government intervention within the realm of video games would not be welcome and could hurt the industry, it probably won't kill it or restrict the industry to making "Barbie-horse-adventure" games. The majority of Americans have never had a problem with violence anyway. Just look at your entertainment industry.

#179 Posted by Zamir (511 posts) -

all Americans have the right to offend and their is precedent on this issue and if the supreme court doesn't do the right thing they would go against established precedent
 
here's a video of First Amendment lawyer who gets into this issue and how it's unconstitutional to try stifle anyone speech
  

#180 Edited by Zamir (511 posts) -

this guy who makes hardcore pornography and was charged with obscenity had his case was thrown out by a federal judge, so if the supreme court goes against precedent the federal government is saying that hardcore pornography is a more acceptable form of art/entertainment than video games and i would say M-rated game but by the California legislation it doesn't even go off ESRB ratings, which my put E 10 plus games under the umbrella of "content unsuitable for minors"
  

#181 Posted by YukoAsho (2248 posts) -
@ninjalegend said:
@YukoAsho: I guess I'm just a fool who keeps believing in his country and the people in it. I always thought that maybe the next generation could clean up the mess mine could not. I've always held out hope that with education, we could become great again. After reading some of these comments here, my hopes for a more educated, informed generation have been all but completely dashed. I shall remain a fool, however, and hold out hope for a luminary that may lead my fellow Americans to having an interest in something other than reality shows, and what is affecting them this instant.
I too hold hope.  Perhaps a true disaster will hit America in such a grand scope that people can no longer ignore the nation around them.  Perhaps another great leader will emerge to follow in the steps of Washington, Lincoln, Kennedy and Reagan.  The nation, and indeed the world, increasingly needs one or both of these things to happen, and I can't help but hold out hope that the age of heroes isn't dead.
#182 Posted by buckybit (1517 posts) -

I live in Germany for a couple decades now. Let me tell you how it is here as a warning:

  1. No freedom of speech
  2. No freedom of press

After the Nazi-Regime and World War I and II the Allies did no see it fit for Germany to be a 'grown up' nation and many years later, after Germany regained it's full independence, they still keep the laws handy to oppress basic rights Americans - even in California - still have.

The media has endless restrictions, what they may and may not do. The video game industry is bound to rigid rules. Gears of War, God of War, Duke Nukem, Quake, Doom, even the 1st original Half Life are "verboten" (banned and or censored!). There is no freedom of speech or right to express what you think.

The discussion in the society - and what California is up to now - follows two distinct lines of thought:

  • DO WE WANT TO LIVE IN A SOCIETY CREATED BY ADULTS FOR ADULTS

vs.

  • DO WE WANT TO LIVE IN A SOCIETY THAT IS CREATED "KID-FRIENDLY" IN ALL ASPECTS OF LIFE

It used to be a "men's world" - you join the club when you are 18 (or 21). Before that, your parents are responsible for what you may or may not do! Or what you may watch on TV, or what video games you may play at home. This was the rule in most countries with a legal system - and still is today.

Of course, the extreme measures in Germany or Australia (again, only as a warning example) did not prevent school shootings, or child abuse, or the uprising of xenophobic Neo-Nazis in Germany's case, or child poverty, etc... The society has not become "safe" for children - yet the law is tailored around this fantasy and hypocrisy.

Without the liberal and tolerant US society as a role model for the rest of the world - with all it's flaws - THE INTERNET WOULD NOT EXIST TODAY?! Freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom of making video games - as silly, stupid and violent as they may be - is a sign of a healthy society, were adults are allowed to create and purchase whatever they want.

If you lose this, you will become an oppressed society with much more issues than right now.

#183 Posted by Vodun (2393 posts) -

This would have no impact what so ever if it wasn't for marketing. Who the fuck cares if there's a lable on the box you buy saying "this is obscene"? The only thing this limits is how, when and where you can market your product.

On the one hand, I can understand that this is a problem because you need to get the word out about your creation. But on the other...the thought that games will not get made based solely on the fact that they can't put up posters about it is fucking revolting.

#184 Edited by RoninAutomaton (19 posts) -

@Gonmog said:

@RoninAutomaton: This not some ancient state law, this is a Nation wide law.

And this is not about kids getting the games, its about the fact....o fucking forget it.

They tried to censor music for Explicit Lyrics, and see where that went. Art throughout history has been criticized for depictions of the profane, violence, sex, and whatever you want to throw out there ... has not stopped art from persevering. There’s money to be made from games, even the violent and the ultra-violent ones. If there’s something that most people can’t shut up, it’s money.

#185 Posted by HellBrendy (1026 posts) -

No more violence? Hm. Maybe we'll finally get to see some real story in our games.  
 
(While I do love me some Mortal Kombat, Bulletstorm and Saints Row, the good story in the videogames was seemingly left dead in a rut some twenty years ago).

#186 Posted by Zamir (511 posts) -

i don't even know why the supreme court took up this case since Jeff and Ryan already took up the issue a few weeks ago
  

  i thought this was settled
#187 Edited by KaneRobot (2254 posts) -

Awww...Schwarzenegger v. EMA sounds so much cooler than Brown v. EMA.

#188 Edited by norenewalfee (118 posts) -

We have had this shit for years here in Germany. Violent games are only sold to adults and are not allowed to be put on shelves or advertised so kids don´t see them. It´s not that big a deal... I live in Germany and still got Mortal Kombat (thanks to the E.U.) which is not sold (even to adults in Germany)  here . 

#189 Edited by TJUK (116 posts) -

Here is the UK, I think we have the situation with violent video games pretty much sorted.

The law is very clear here. If you make a video game with violent content you must submit it to the British Board of Film Classification. Games such as GTA and Modern Warfare will always get an 18 certificate. This means it is illegal to sell the game to persons under the age of 18. However, having this kind of clear certification doesn't harm the industry here at all. Remember most gamers are actually aged 18-30 anyway. Having a solid 18 certificate actually helps us here. Stuff that would be cut in the US - for example the boobs in The Witcher are let through with no problems because it is clear that the material is made for adult consumption only.

Selling games rated 18 to minors in the UK is illegal and that's the way it should be in my opinion. You wouldn't let your kids watch The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, for example would you?

http://www.bbfc.co.uk/download/point-of-sale-info/Point%20of%20Sale%20Information%20-%20English.pdf

See? Very simple. My advice to the US is - don't be afraid of classification. For example making certain games available only to those over the age of 18 wouldn't destroy the industry. In fact it may help to make it stronger. Developers who decide to make an 18 certificate game don't have to worry about making their content suitable for minors - so are afforded more creative freedom.

#190 Posted by norenewalfee (118 posts) -
@TJUK: Couldn´t agree more. It´s not that big a deal. At first it seems like people are manhandled (for lack of better term) but when it comes down to it it´s ok. Of course there is always people who bitch and complain but as a whole you can stil buy what you want.
#191 Posted by OppressiveStink (366 posts) -

@norenewalfee: @TJUK:

Please don't take this as an insult to your respective countries but the USA is quite a bit more of a significant market than your individual countries. Most video game companies make the majority of their dollars from our purchases. To think there wouldn't be any impact after the largest market for video games is stymied is kind of silly.

#192 Posted by SpudBug (707 posts) -

there's simply no way that this effort against the videogame industry succeeds in its current form. It's too broad, too general, and too easily misunderstood/misued.

That doesn't mean that Yee and others who agree with him won't try again, and again, though. It's important that this first major effort be established as incorrect and that you can't simply say one form of media is subject to the government's attention vs others.

That and the amount of regulatory nonsense and government bodies and budget that would be required to enforce what Yee wants would be absolutely absurd.

I hope the supreme court delivers a firm and final response that parents, not the government, need to be responsible for what media minors consume.

#193 Posted by JoeH (213 posts) -

The thing I always bring up when people ramble on about video games and kids and bla bla bla. Is that The Wasp Factory, to me personally, is a the most brilliantly disturbing piece of media ever created yet any kid can walk into a bookshop and buy it. There's no real difference between The Wasp Factory and GTA4, both are good pieces of literature(here I use that word quite wrongly just meaning "a story") and both have extreme violence in them. Both are clearly not marketed to kids.

The only difference, the only difference anyone cares about. The only difference that means that violent video games are being scrutinized is that GTA4 is a video game. People often, and quite wrongly, associate games with children and therefore violent games with children.

#194 Posted by wordfalling (205 posts) -

Ahhhh obscenity. The last novel to go to trial for it was written by William S. Burroughs, who also wrote the line "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" used oh so frequently in AC where we all know you frequently stab dudes in the face and neck.
 
I purchased his novel "Naked Lunch" when I was fourteen and the clerk didn't bat an eyelid, when I went to purchase The Witcher a few years ago when I was twenty-nine some douche-nozzle gamestop employee had the balls to card me. Having read through one and played through the other, I should have been carded for the book.

#195 Posted by hidys (1063 posts) -

The supreme court has done questionable things before but in this instance they will probably do the right thing.


#196 Posted by JoeH (213 posts) -

@wordfalling: I agree totally, I got IDed buying Mortal Kombat, but I've been given far more obscene things by my old English Literature teacher than anything I've seen in gaming.

#197 Edited by norenewalfee (118 posts) -
@OppressiveStink
No offense taken. I don´t know how much games are sold in brick and mortar stores in the US but the way Americans shop (my wife is American) is quite different IMHO.  So I don´t really know how important those stores are compared to places like Amazon
#198 Posted by Cribba (350 posts) -

Why can't all of these OLD PEOPLE just die?

#199 Edited by MattyFTM (14652 posts) -

@OppressiveStink: I don't see why it would have an impact on game sales. Plenty of other countries have legally enforceable age ratings on games, and it doesn't affect anything. They sit on store shelves just like every other game. The only difference is that it has an "18" age rating on the bottom corner of the box, and it's illegal to sell it to anyone under the age of 18. That age rating doesn't affect sales any more than an M rating will affect sales in the US, and I don't see why that would change under a law making it illegal to sell violent games to minors. I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill with this whole thing, reading into how it will effect the industry when it'll have little effect at all. It is stupid to single out video games and ignore other types of media, but having legally enforceable age ratings on media is a good thing.

Moderator Online
#200 Posted by zudthespud (3329 posts) -

As has been said already, here in the UK we have the system and it works great. Parents get to control what kids play. Nothing to be afraid of.