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#1 Edited by ArtisanBreads (3721 posts) -

I'm playing through Borderlands 2 right now, and I have to say I've reached my breaking point with this and I'm curious if others feel the same way and how it can be defended. I have two associated but different points in regard to "Loot games":

1) Why even have common, crappy, white color loot?

2) Why have so much loot?

1) Common, crappy loot

I simply ignore it, especially in Borderlands where you just don't have a reason or the space to pick up much loot just to sell it. None of it will be useful. I find that I open lockers or other containers and hold down the "X" button and pick it up accidentally all the time because I'm just expecting it to be ammo and then I have to go through my inventory and throw the junk away (even more annoying is that this holding down X equips the loot in Borderlands 2).

So I have to ask, what's the point? No one will use it. I know that it makes the other loot seem more powerful by comparison (how can you have rarity without common items) but when you have multiple tiers (Green, Purple, Blue, etc) why even have common loot? This is a problem I've had with so many loot games but the limited inventory of Borderlands 2 only makes it more meaningless.

2) So much loot

I get the drive for improving your equipment over time. But do people really find it enjoyable to have to constantly equip new loot items when there is a marginal difference between them? This isn't as much of a problem in Borderlands 2, but in other loot games to have to constantly scrounge for new equipment with marginal improvements just seems like busy work to me.

In contrast, I offer up Dragons Dogma. Though I think it goes a bit too far the other direction, I found the restraint in its equipment offerings to be very refreshing. It felt meaningful and noticeable when you got a new item in that game and the "epic" style loot felt genuinely epic.

#2 Posted by HadesTimes (802 posts) -

I think mostly adds to the suspense of whether you are getting something good or not. Also, in loot games in general sometimes money is important, and selling crappy loot can give you money. At high levels I know it isn't in Borderlands 2 but near the beginning it can be helpful. Especially for gambling.

#3 Posted by Colourful_Hippie (4328 posts) -

It looks like you miss the point and appeal of loot games. I always like tweaking my guy when new shit comes my way. I do agree that Borderlands could streamline their multiple tiers of loot but having a bunch of shit loot is necessary and found in any other loot game. You won't be happy to find that shiny new expensive loot when the past ten drops were on the exact same level.

#4 Edited by ArtisanBreads (3721 posts) -

@HadesTimes said:

I think mostly adds to the suspense of whether you are getting something good or not. Also, in loot games in general sometimes money is important, and selling crappy loot can give you money. At high levels I know it isn't in Borderlands 2 but near the beginning it can be helpful. Especially for gambling.

I know what you mean here but ultimately the developers could tune the game's economy so that you didn't need to sell loot like that and ultimately the game would be better IMO.

@Colourful_Hippie said:

It looks like you miss the point and appeal of loot games. I always like tweaking my guy when new shit comes my way. I do agree that Borderlands could streamline their multiple tiers of loot but having a bunch of shit loot is necessary and found in any other loot game. You won't be happy to find that shiny new expensive loot when the past ten drops were on the exact same level.

I don't see how. Again, I get the need for distinguishing between levels of loot but the tiers do that. I simply suggest there is no need for garbage bottom level loot. There is no point to it in Borderlands 2 but to sell and as I suggest the game could be balanced to not require this.

Dragons Dogma has no shitty loot and more restraint in equipment that is offered and getting better equipment feels more meaningful, so I don't think what you suggest is true at all. It makes me happier to get new equipment in that game than in most loot games that don't follow its model of restraint.

I do think Borderlands 2 does make higher level equipment exciting to get, that's why I aim more of my first point at BL2 than my second. Examples of games that fall into the second category I set up would be Dungeon Siege of the Dark Alliance games.

#5 Posted by JZ (2125 posts) -

If every piece of loot was amazing, whats the point of there even being loot at all.

#6 Posted by Dagbiker (6939 posts) -

I actually had a similar thought as I was walking to work today. I was thinking about the exp rewards and scaling in borderlands, and RPG's in general. And how it really should be uniform.

If the player is at level 1, killing level 1 mobs, it should take the same amount of kills to get to level 2 as it dose for you to get from level 49 to level 50 killing level 49 mobs. But I think the reason they don't do that is because of the same reason they give you so much loot. Its because they want to hook you. And keep you playing.

#7 Posted by Eurobum (244 posts) -

@ArtisanBreads: It's all a matter of perspective and informational completeness, you start knowing nothing, finding most loot useful.

  • As you learn about the game and the loot system, the relative amounts of useful loot gradually decrease. Well, technically all of it is still useful, but it's just tedious to sort through.
  • Once you mastered the game all loot appears useless, at this point the tedium is nigh unbearable.
  • When you understand how these games work, the whole fucking RANDOM loot genre appears tedious and dumb.
#8 Edited by ArtisanBreads (3721 posts) -

@Dagbiker said:

I actually had a similar thought as I was walking to work today. I was thinking about the exp rewards and scaling in borderlands, and RPG's in general. And how it really should be uniform.

If the player is at level 1, killing level 1 mobs, it should take the same amount of kills to get to level 2 as it dose for you to get from level 49 to level 50 killing level 49 mobs. But I think the reason they don't do that is because of the same reason they give you so much loot. Its because they want to hook you. And keep you playing.

I think you may be right with their thinking and I wonder if I'm just one of the few people who doesn't feel that way.

More, more, more =/= better in RPGs. I appreciate restraint.

@JZ said:

If every piece of loot was amazing, whats the point of there even being loot at all.

Did you even read the thread? The point is restraint, not everything has to be amazing. I just don't need so much crap. It's tedious.

@Eurobum said:

@ArtisanBreads: It's all a matter of perspective and informational completeness, you start knowing nothing, finding most loot useful.

  • As you learn about the game and the loot system, the relative amounts of useful loot gradually decrease. Well, technically all of it is still useful, but it's just tedious to sort through.
  • Once you mastered the game all loot appears useless, at this point the tedium is nigh unbearable.
  • When you understand how these games work, the whole fucking RANDOM loot genre appears tedious and dumb.

I think you may be right. I guess that these games really focused on loot just want to throw more and more at you and I just find that not very fun to deal with. Other RPGs use loot but with more restraint (DD and also Witcher for example) and I enjoy that. So I guess the loot genre just isn't totally for me but there are aspects of the games that I do enjoy, Borderlands 2 and Diablo and Dark Alliance, but loot has to kind of overshadow those elements to some level.

#9 Posted by captain_clayman (3318 posts) -

I like crappy loot because I can sell it, and buy better loot with it. Or in other games where you can repair weapons using other poor condition weapons (fallout) or like in darksiders 2 where you can feed weapons and armor to your posessed weapons. Boring loot is pretty essential to the flow of loot games.

#10 Posted by Demoskinos (14523 posts) -

@ArtisanBreads said:

@HadesTimes said:

I think mostly adds to the suspense of whether you are getting something good or not. Also, in loot games in general sometimes money is important, and selling crappy loot can give you money. At high levels I know it isn't in Borderlands 2 but near the beginning it can be helpful. Especially for gambling.

I know what you mean here but ultimately the developers could tune the game's economy so that you didn't need to sell loot like that and ultimately the game would be better IMO.

@Colourful_Hippie said:

It looks like you miss the point and appeal of loot games. I always like tweaking my guy when new shit comes my way. I do agree that Borderlands could streamline their multiple tiers of loot but having a bunch of shit loot is necessary and found in any other loot game. You won't be happy to find that shiny new expensive loot when the past ten drops were on the exact same level.

I don't see how. Again, I get the need for distinguishing between levels of loot but the tiers do that. I simply suggest there is no need for garbage bottom level loot. There is no point to it in Borderlands 2 but to sell and as I suggest the game could be balanced to not require this.

Dragons Dogma has no shitty loot and more restraint in equipment that is offered and getting better equipment feels more meaningful, so I don't think what you suggest is true at all. It makes me happier to get new equipment in that game than in most loot games that don't follow its model of restraint.

I do think Borderlands 2 does make higher level equipment exciting to get, that's why I aim more of my first point at BL2 than my second. Examples of games that fall into the second category I set up would be Dungeon Siege of the Dark Alliance games.

If you get rid of white then "green" is the new white so you've just eliminated a tier and not solved any problem. You need awful shit so the good shit looks great.

#11 Posted by Colourful_Hippie (4328 posts) -

@Demoskinos: The one thing I do agree on with the OP is that there should be less tiers but yes, there will always be shit level loot. It's necessary.

#12 Edited by ArtisanBreads (3721 posts) -

@Colourful_Hippie said:

@Demoskinos: The one thing I do agree on with the OP is that there should be less tiers but yes, there will always be shit level loot. It's necessary.

Yeah Demoskinos you are right but Colorful_Hippie gets my point. Just less tiers if you want to put it that way.

The uselessness of white level gear in Borderlands 2 is just crazy to me. It's completely unnecessary. I get that these are games with more focus on loot but there are RPGs that show more restraint and still have loot and equipment and a good sense of progression.

#13 Posted by Demoskinos (14523 posts) -

@ArtisanBreads: So...don't pick it up? I mean that seems like a solution to me. Besides there becomes a point in any loot game where you have so much money that picking up blues and even purples is a waste of time.

#14 Edited by MordeaniisChaos (5730 posts) -

Yeah. You need something to make money off of, and you need some chance of not getting something good. I'd rather have a bunch of vendor trash than stuff always being better ,or just being "different' even though I never want to switch things up. I like the way Borderlands 2 works with loot, because even white stuff can be fun because you can get crazy pistols that dump a billion shots in about a second, and that can be fun to dick around with.

The first Mass Effect and the second Mass Effect are good examples of how to do it wrong. The orignal has trillions of things dropping from EVERY enemy and it was overwhelming, especially when you couldn't really choose to pick it up or not to. The second had no shit tier stuff, and was boring as fuck.

Online
#15 Posted by TaliciaDragonsong (8698 posts) -

If handled right sure, otherwise it can be a bit messy and if the vendor price isn't worth it (Diablo 3, for example) then its kind of annoying and cluttering.

#16 Posted by HH (595 posts) -

@HadesTimes said:

At high levels I know it isn't in Borderlands 2 but near the beginning it can be helpful. Especially for gambling.

I disagree with this, i've been trying to collect blue and purple class mods, in order to try out different maximized builds, the best place to get them is med vendors, and at my level (45) they sell for a hundred to a hundred and fifty thou each. i've stopped gambling completely so i can afford to buy these when i come across them, and i would say money is more important to me now than it was at any other point in the game.

#17 Posted by BlindRapture (106 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

You need awful shit so the good shit looks great.

Done. End of discussion. It's like putting an ugly chick next to a mediocre chick so she seems that much prettier by comparison. If it's worthless to you, just don't pick it up. The point of color coded loot is to be able to make a value judgement at a glance.

#18 Posted by 8Bit_Archer (450 posts) -

@BlindRapture said:

@Demoskinos said:

You need awful shit so the good shit looks great.

Done. End of discussion. It's like putting an ugly chick next to a mediocre chick so she seems that much prettier by comparison. If it's worthless to you, just don't pick it up. The point of color coded loot is to be able to make a value judgement at a glance.

agreed...also need something to sell

#19 Edited by ArtisanBreads (3721 posts) -

@BlindRapture said:

@Demoskinos said:

You need awful shit so the good shit looks great.

Done. End of discussion. It's like putting an ugly chick next to a mediocre chick so she seems that much prettier by comparison. If it's worthless to you, just don't pick it up. The point of color coded loot is to be able to make a value judgement at a glance.

But then again if I could just wipe all the hideous women out of existence so they aren't taking up space and in general cluttering up the world... why not? (cruel example but the point stands).

You don't need useless loot and you can balance the game's economy so you don't need to sell lots of useless loot. People fail to recognize these things. They are not requirements. Plenty of games DON'T follow those two points.

The bottom line is I guess some people enjoy the busy work involved in this kind of loot design. It's like enjoying organizing your receipts. Cool I guess.

#20 Edited by BlindRapture (106 posts) -

@ArtisanBreads said:

@BlindRapture said:

@Demoskinos said:

You need awful shit so the good shit looks great.

Done. End of discussion. It's like putting an ugly chick next to a mediocre chick so she seems that much prettier by comparison. If it's worthless to you, just don't pick it up. The point of color coded loot is to be able to make a value judgement at a glance.

But then again if I could just wipe all the hideous women out of existence so they aren't taking up space and in general cluttering up the world... why not? (cruel example but the point stands).

You don't need useless loot and you can balance the game's economy so you don't need to sell lots of useless loot. People fail to recognize these things. They are not requirements. Plenty of games DON'T follow those two points.

Because then our mediocre chicks are the new ugly chicks.

But seriously, does crap loot really hurt your experience? Those are the honest two reasons that crap loot exists. Loot games are built around a cognitive response. Crap loot may seem inconsequential to you but it's all part of feeding that reaction.

#21 Posted by Turambar (6641 posts) -

Lets work backwards. Starting from loot that is fucking amazing to loot that is pretty decent and you might use, there is a decrease in rarity, from "find it once every 1000 dead guys" to "drops ever so often." But for loot driven games, everything should be dropping loot. You don't want to the point of excitement to be "is the enemy going to drop something?" You want it to be "is what the enemy dropped going to be amazing?" Well, what do we do for loot that is going to drop fairly often on every other enemy? Why, make it shitty common loot of course.

#22 Posted by living4theday258 (678 posts) -

@ArtisanBreads said:

I know that it makes the other loot seem more powerful by comparison (how can you have rarity without common items) but when you have multiple tiers (Green, Purple, Blue, etc) why even have common loot? This is a problem I've had with so many loot games but the limited inventory of Borderlands 2 only makes it more meaningless

because if you didn't have common white tier loot then green tier loot would be common and you would be complaining about how common green loot is.

#23 Edited by ArtisanBreads (3721 posts) -

@BlindRapture said:

@ArtisanBreads said:

@BlindRapture said:

@Demoskinos said:

You need awful shit so the good shit looks great.

Done. End of discussion. It's like putting an ugly chick next to a mediocre chick so she seems that much prettier by comparison. If it's worthless to you, just don't pick it up. The point of color coded loot is to be able to make a value judgement at a glance.

But then again if I could just wipe all the hideous women out of existence so they aren't taking up space and in general cluttering up the world... why not? (cruel example but the point stands).

You don't need useless loot and you can balance the game's economy so you don't need to sell lots of useless loot. People fail to recognize these things. They are not requirements. Plenty of games DON'T follow those two points.

Because then our mediocre chicks are the new ugly chicks.

But seriously, does crap loot really hurt your experience? Those are the honest two reasons that crap loot exists. Loot games are built around a cognitive response. Crap loot may seem inconsequential to you but it's all part of feeding that reaction.

And all girls just got better looking... that would be a good thing.

And yes it does. As I said in Borderlands 2 it's more of just a clutter thing and situations where I accidentally grab it, but ultimately it just doesn't need to be there. In other games it is a much bigger issue. Particularly games like Dark Alliance or Dungeon Siege 3 where especially early on you are progressing through lots of loot that is only marginally better than the piece you just had. It's just tedious busy work and games with less loot often have a better sense of reward with their loot because the stuff I get over time is notably better. I know I've been discussing Borderlands 2 here a lot but I have to say that besides the useless white loot it does a rather good job with its loot system so I hope people don't just focus on that game in this discussion.

...

I'm not asking for help on how to play these games, I recognize that yes, I can just ignore the crap loot. I am discussing the design here and how it can be improved and asking if I'm the only one with the issue and who sees a problem. I know some people love the systems as they are but I personally don't, yet still like many aspects of games that use the loot systems like this.

#24 Posted by pyromagnestir (4199 posts) -

This thread got super sexist all of a sudden. I like it!

But yeah, the problem can't really be solved by just taking out the bottom tier, because then the next tier just becomes the new bottom tier. Unless you're constantly phasing out shit tiers and phasing in new awesome tiers, maybe?

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#25 Posted by The_Nubster (2037 posts) -

@BlindRapture said:

@ArtisanBreads said:

@BlindRapture said:

@Demoskinos said:

You need awful shit so the good shit looks great.

Done. End of discussion. It's like putting an ugly chick next to a mediocre chick so she seems that much prettier by comparison. If it's worthless to you, just don't pick it up. The point of color coded loot is to be able to make a value judgement at a glance.

But then again if I could just wipe all the hideous women out of existence so they aren't taking up space and in general cluttering up the world... why not? (cruel example but the point stands).

You don't need useless loot and you can balance the game's economy so you don't need to sell lots of useless loot. People fail to recognize these things. They are not requirements. Plenty of games DON'T follow those two points.

Because then our mediocre chicks are the new ugly chicks.

Yes. This is what people fail to understand. By eliminating tiers, the remaining tiers do not get better. The lowest is just different, and then you want to strive for at least one above the lowest.

#26 Posted by BlindRapture (106 posts) -

@pyromagnestir said:

This thread got super sexist all of a sudden. I like it!

But yeah, the problem can't really be solved by just taking out the bottom tier, because then the next tier just becomes the new bottom tier. Unless you're constantly phasing out shit tiers and phasing in new awesome tiers, maybe?

Haha, yeah. Sorry about that, the metaphor was mostly meant in jest.

#27 Posted by SmilingPig (1337 posts) -

You can only know joy in the measure that you know pain... So crappy loot makes you appreciate good loot.

#28 Posted by Clonedzero (4051 posts) -

if every piece of loot is good, then it sorta makes getting a slightly better item kinda underwhelming.

if you have to look through tons of shitty items, finding that great one feels more rewarding. so when you're looking through a pile of loot you can go "that one sucks...that one sucks...that one sucks......that one sucks.....OH SHIT that one is awesome! woot!" and its so just "good" items seem amazing compared to the "vendor trash" loot.

#29 Edited by BirdkeeperDan (400 posts) -

Well technically the lowest level will always be the common unwanted loot, but that doesn't mean all loot systems must have a problem of oceans of crappy loot. There are different ways to think about fixing this problem but essentially you have to find the right quantity of loot.

Say in Torchlight 2 the white equipment should be removed as the green ones are already common enough. Players can just ignore these items but I would prefer if they didn't exist. I like to run through at breakneck pace on the highest difficulty chugging hella potions. I just collect everything in the frenzy and sort it out later. And it's kindof a bummer when you have to stop frequently to send your pet to town with 80% white stuff you didn't read because it isn't worth your time.

Additionally there are clever ways to have lots of distinct types of loot that totally sidestep this hierarchy problem. Add energy tokens that special abilities consume. Add tokens that enable you to use at some lottery device in town. Add like 3 minute automatic consumption powerups (they could be contextualized as blessings if necessary).

#30 Posted by SirOptimusPrime (1917 posts) -

Loot is biased by relativity, so eliminating 'common' loot is impossible because removing the most-common in the current build creates a new bottom/common tier. Then you get into a loop where all loot eventually is removed, leaving the game with one item in it's entirety or you break the game down into a more linear experience by remove unique rolls and statistics from the game. Loot-driven RPG's are about the thrill of getting the next coolest piece of gear because you've been grinding for hours.

Diablo 2, for example, is/was notorious for that. Specifically the LoD days when rune farming the Countess was all anyone ever really did for upwards of 10 hours a day, then they would go farm one of the first minibosses (name escapes me) because he had one of the highest drop rates when compared to his super easy mob.

I think you just don't appreciate the grind like other people do. That's fine, but I don't think it's 100% okay to say it makes a game fundamentally broken. It's a design choice, because something has to be at the bottom. Trash loot is usually bland because that makes it an easy incentive to keep playing because, suddenly, your items do things other than just hit people, so making the trash loot a higher tier can eliminate the whole point of the tippy-top to casual players.

#31 Posted by Mcfart (1538 posts) -

The problem I have with Borderlands is the apparently neccessity to have $5 everywhere. I hate pushing E just to say $15. Can't trash money just be drops from enemies (and actually pick it up automattically) and reserve crates for ammo/guns?

#32 Posted by MegaLombax (384 posts) -

Crappy loot is just a source of income. You get them, then you sell them. Plus, crappy loot is like a control batch, you need to gauge the legendary loot against something, hence the crappy loot.

#33 Posted by huntad (1930 posts) -

@BlindRapture said:

@Demoskinos said:

You need awful shit so the good shit looks great.

Done. End of discussion. It's like putting an ugly chick next to a mediocre chick so she seems that much prettier by comparison. If it's worthless to you, just don't pick it up. The point of color coded loot is to be able to make a value judgement at a glance.

I agree. It has a purpose and is not necessary. The choice is up to the player.

#34 Posted by wewantsthering (1547 posts) -

You need a comparison. With the crap as a benchmark, when you see a purple or something, it's pretty exciting.

#35 Posted by Swaboo (450 posts) -

At least you can sell it for decent cash in Borderlands 2. In Diablo 3 its completely useless... AND they have grey items that are even worse than white items.

#36 Posted by Quinifer (2 posts) -

The issue with BL2 isn't that there's too much crap loot, it's that your carrying space has been so reduced that you end up filling your pockets before you're even halfway through a "dungeon." It seem that the problem is not so much the amount of low end loot, but the pace at which you receive it. In the first one after the first few areas you didn't spend half your time looking for a vending machine, mostly because with cash being the only barrier between you and bigger pockets the crap loot you found ensured that you wouldn't end up filling your bags up with crap loot. The scarceness of Eridium, and the reduced bag space, put too much of a barrier between you and having enough space for everything.

#37 Posted by RedRavN (397 posts) -

I think it is necessary because it provides a point of contrast. If every piece of gear was balanced and useable the game would be boring. Especially in borderlands you dont even have to pick up whites after level 12 or so. If there was no white tier then the same issue would exist with greens. It still feels like an important moment when you find a purple or a legendary.

Think about it this way, if there was only the top gears and they dropped at the same rate then some people would get them every level or so and progress ok but someone might get unlucky and not get anything for like 10 levels or so. The whites and greens help fill in the gaps when you dont get a good drop so you can progress in the game.

#38 Posted by iam3green (14390 posts) -

yeah sometimes loot is crappy. one thing that i hate about loot games is there's never enough room for loot. you either have to drop something or go somewhere to sell it. sometimes the drop will disappear, it just bad thing.

#39 Posted by thedj93 (1237 posts) -

this thread reminds me of that dara o'briain standup about commuting in gta 4

#40 Edited by Tennmuerti (7957 posts) -

@ArtisanBreads said:

I think you may be right. I guess that these games really focused on loot just want to throw more and more at you and I just find that not very fun to deal with. Other RPGs use loot but with more restraint (DD and also Witcher for example) and I enjoy that. So I guess the loot genre just isn't totally for me but there are aspects of the games that I do enjoy, Borderlands 2 and Diablo and Dark Alliance, but loot has to kind of overshadow those elements to some level.

@ArtisanBreads said:

You don't need useless loot and you can balance the game's economy so you don't need to sell lots of useless loot. People fail to recognize these things. They are not requirements. Plenty of games DON'T follow those two points.

Just to address this line of thinking.

You are comparing apples and oranges here. Games like Dragons Dogma, Witcher etc, are not loot centred games in the first place. Their approach and mechanics of how loot works are entirely different to your Diablo, Borderlands etc.

In the first set of games loot is simply a small part of the experience. The second subset of games use loot as the primary driving force, it's the main thing those game revolve around. It's why they don't use a small number of static pre made handcrafted loot, but rather generate it randomly based on a plethora of variables and factors. If games like Borderlands or Diablo only had a small limited amount of loot like Witcher or DD they would be loose a huge part of their appeal in the first place, the short upgrade cycle and the loot lust carrot on a stick.

I don't expect a deep rich narrative with dialogue, player choices and consequences out of something like Diablo or Torchlight. By the same merit i don't expect a short constant upgrade cycle and loot lust, nor sheer number variety of loot from Witcher or Alpha Protocol. These are entirely different subsets of RPG's (tho i personally don't consider Diablo like games RPG's but rather loot based dungeon crawlers)

Last game to try and merge the 2 types failed spectacularly at both. KoA:Reckoning.

Others seem to have addressed the whole "remove white loot" issue, there is always a bottom tier. And no loot grind based game has yet successfully tackled this issue to date.

#41 Posted by thebeastwithtwobacks (140 posts) -

its super annoying and time consuming, but ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO APPRECIATE THE AWESOME LOOT.

#42 Edited by envane (1159 posts) -

short answer is , because diablo did it and that sold really well so clearly that has to continue forever\

and i havent played dragons dogma so im unsure if it relates , but i feel theres a similar scarcity of loot in games liek dark souls etc , there are farmable item,s but alot of stuff is generally 1 per game and sometiems it will be your starting equipment that carries you through the game , only picking up a choice ring etc , it definately isnt less of a game because ti doesnt have common,uncommon,rare,epic,legenday versions of each item .. but it does run into the issue of alot of the gear being almost indentical in form and function , and often only minimal differences in armor values etc (not considrering upgrades etc.. ) you end up picking yoru gear mainly based on roleplay/baddass looks value heh.

i dunno .. loot games are ultimately flawed in the aspect of "value" despite often being alot of fun regardless , it has become a bit crazy with common items becoming absolutely useless most of the time ( used to be a way of upgrading ,because rarer items were rarer and you would often outlevel their usefulness making that fresh new white item attactive enough until you found a new rare etc.. ) at least borderlands doesnt have grey trash items to add to that useless pile .. but yeah if you could even carry it all or a reasonable amount before having to clear your bag then it wouldnt be so obvious .. ive probably missed good items because im so used to ignoring everything (gunzerker , dont really need ammo )

#43 Edited by Zekhariah (697 posts) -

I sort of agree on the excessive loot side of it (and if their is a clear "optimal loot" setup, I would just prefer have linear auto upgrades with no player intervention).

But the big thing in the loot centric game is the potential for minutia oriented tweaking to increase survivability / damage out / etc. And an terms of the visual factor when a huge number of weapons pop on the ground (Diablo 3 bosses explode into loot pretty much); if it were not equippable items popping out I do not think you would get the momentary thrill of the loot chase - even if all the items are actually useless. And since the moment to moment activity in those games is so repetitive you sort of need the loot to take on a starring role (less so in a borderlands type though).

#44 Posted by Spankmealotus (277 posts) -

The only other option without breaking the loot system is to have nothing drop in the place of gear you wont want to use. The fact the the loot rolls on a random system means that without the low tier item the top tear item will have a higher drop percentage and drop more often, making the high tier item less meaningful when it does drop. If you look at what TItan Quest did and Torchlight 2 has done you see solutions to these problems. Titan Quest had alternate buttons you could push that wouldn't display the grey/white items with the rest of them when you held the show-me-the-name-of-the-drops-on-the-ground button, so you only see the top few tiers of items at a glance. Torchlight 2 has put a simple checkbox option in the menus where you can select what level of items you want to display. So if you don't want to see the white items of weapons/armor you just uncheck the appropriate boxes. The items still drop and in a clicking frenzy you can still accidentally pick them up but it makes it much easier to just pickup the stuff with value to you. While making so that nothing drops instead of a trash item is an option. I feel it makes the loot-driven game genre a little less fun by the simple fact that not seeing loot drop at all would make the hope for what dropped to be good happen less often.

#45 Edited by Hadoken101 (699 posts) -

You need trash loot to appreciate the good and great loot. Think of it like this, if there weren't any white loot, the worst thing would be green loot. If green is the worst, why should I ever pick it up? Now that I'm never picking up green loot, should they remove it?

It's a necessary part of the system because you need to be able to notice that "Hey, this Purple gun/sword/ring is awesome because it's WAY better than this White gun/sword/ring." If everything was awesome, you'd just get a case of "Oh look... another 4000 damage shotgun. Guess I'll throw that with the other 4000 damage shotgun."

#46 Posted by Terramagi (1159 posts) -

Yes, yes you need the shit loot, to make the good loot look even better by comparison.

If you get rid of the shit items, you inevitably end up with a game that says to you "okay, here's your 2 guns, press left to switch to your assault and press right to switch to your pistol".

#47 Posted by Terramagi (1159 posts) -

Also, because you really only have two choices here.

Everybody drops loot, most of it is shit.

or

Very few things drop loot, all of it is awesome.

The first is called an ARPG.

The second is called a KMMO.

#48 Edited by ArtisanBreads (3721 posts) -

Good responses guys. Glad to see some people feel like I do and I get why some others don't.

I know that this is something that's part of the genre and at some level I'm kind of missing that. However, I do like the idea of loot. I just don't see the appeal in the busy work involved in many of these loot games. I still believe there is an evolution we will see in one of these games to come out past the "tiered" system of loot. I guess if a game is using tiers its kind of just admitting itself to the "garbage loot" problem I describe.

I still maintain that even among these loot games that there could be some more restraint. Not Dragons Dogma or Witcher levels, but just a little more restraint.

@Spankmealotus said:

The only other option without breaking the loot system is to have nothing drop in the place of gear you wont want to use. The fact the the loot rolls on a random system means that without the low tier item the top tear item will have a higher drop percentage and drop more often, making the high tier item less meaningful when it does drop. If you look at what TItan Quest did and Torchlight 2 has done you see solutions to these problems. Titan Quest had alternate buttons you could push that wouldn't display the grey/white items with the rest of them when you held the show-me-the-name-of-the-drops-on-the-ground button, so you only see the top few tiers of items at a glance. Torchlight 2 has put a simple checkbox option in the menus where you can select what level of items you want to display. So if you don't want to see the white items of weapons/armor you just uncheck the appropriate boxes. The items still drop and in a clicking frenzy you can still accidentally pick them up but it makes it much easier to just pickup the stuff with value to you. While making so that nothing drops instead of a trash item is an option. I feel it makes the loot-driven game genre a little less fun by the simple fact that not seeing loot drop at all would make the hope for what dropped to be good happen less often.

Ah that's awesome. Works to solve my issue while giving loot whores what they want too. Pretty smart. I've never played either title.

#49 Posted by Lysergica33 (517 posts) -

VENDOR TRASH FOREVER.

#50 Posted by bchampnd (108 posts) -

I completely understand what the OP is saying but I tend to agree with the people who are saying that the random loot is basically the entire point of the game and you need the junk to make it exciting when you find something good.

I think that the real problem with the random drops in Borderlands 2 is that, while in most games of this type you'll just pick up the junk to sell, inventory space in Borderlands 2 is at a premium since you top out at 27 backpack slots and inventory management in this game just isn't great. I had been playing Torchlight for a few weeks before this game came out so I keep wishing I had a pet to bring my junk to town and sell it off for me.