Is this gonna be Dragon's Crown all over again?

I am curious, are there any ladies on here with big boobs find it offensive that anytime a character has big boobs it's seen as bad or objectifying? I like boobs, big or small, and I know a lady with big boobs but I didn't need to ask her this question as she doesn't care about this whole discussion and thinks it's stupid(as do I) but I want to ask those who do care about this discussion and if you find it weird that usually the deciding factor that if someone is sexualized is usually the size of her breasts. I have even seen some folks associate big boobs with being slutty, which seems like it would be horribly offensive to a lady with big breasts.

*shrugs*

You could sell a lot of things if they were legal, but it doesn't mean it has a right to exist. I don't think profit and demand justifies means, that's silly. And you know what? I'm not anti-porn, but there are plenty of gender problems in that industry, even if I do not think this is the place for that discussion. Finally, while this may not be the best example, that attitude infesting games all over that do NOT have as their primary purpose to titillate is a problem. It sucks.

I think I can answer this. It's because they didn't just happen to create a character with large breasts, but instead created large breasts and then built their characters around them and if you look at their game and marketing materials the reasons for doing so become pretty obvious. Still like I said before this is soft core porn for people with huge breast fetishes and a like of video games, a pretty damn niche audience, not really something to get worked up over and not a symptom of any problems in the industry.

What a load of bullshit. This is a game forum. It is exactly the right place to to talk about this, and using "first-world problem" dodges to try to ignore issues in a community most of us consider ourselves a part of is always nonsense. It's not a sense of perspective. Unless your going to take it to it's logical conclusion and never complain about anything(because as a first-world denizen obviously you have no problem comparatively) and never address smaller issues (because "children are starving in Africa and couldn't we be discussing that instead?")

I think this would be an issue if this were a mainstream game targeted towards everyone, but since it's CLEARLY targeted at a teen/young-adult male audience, I don't see much of an issue here at all. Yeah, the game definitely objectifies the women, but as others have said it's not mycologist in the slightest bit, and no one commenting here is part of the target demographic, so just don't play it. Problem solved.

@armedbear: @wjb: @alwaysbebombing: @kidavenger:

If you don't want to talk about this subject, then don't post. If you don't want this subject to be talked about, take it up with a moderator.

I can't really feign outrage about sexism when the game itself is clearly aimed at a very specific audience. The people who have any interest in Senran Kagura probably don't care that it "objectifies women" because... that's kind of the point?

@darji said:

Some of these people are so offended by a characters sexuality that it basically blinds them to everything else about the character. Which is interesting when they complain about how reductive their sexuality is, considering they're the ones focusing on it. I can't say whether or not that's the case in Senran Kagura, or Dragon's Crown, but I remember it coming up a couple times when Heavenly Sword came out, which drove me crazy considering Nariko is my personal pick for strongest female character I've ever played as. That's a western game, but you're right Japan has a ton of great female characters too.

I don't see this as an issue and play the occasional silly fanservice game because more often than not they're so outrageous you can't possibly take them seriously, the boogeymen are definitely elsewhere. Sexuality isn't such a grave matter and I certainly don't think unrealistic and revealing armor or a game about big breasted high-school ninjas beating each other with pancakes is anything to get on a high horse about. I can't put the economics of an industry or the artistic (however calculating and not to my liking) vision of a creator under the same umbrella as the mistreatment of any given individual based on their gender. That said I find stuff like hiding Elizabeth from the front cover of Bioshock Infinite very unfortunate so I'm probably a hypocrite.

Arguing over a video game will get us no where. You gotta think of the bigger picture here, Society.

Video games mirror society in many ways, they just so happen to live in the world of fiction so exaggerations ensue....

And again I see no issues here.

I don't understand. Nobody says ever that the existence of porn degrades the movie industry. Why should some cheap titillating video game degrade the video game industry? Hate the message, not the medium.

I love this argument. There's a term for it, and I'd look it up, but it's really not worth the effort. Do you really think people can only care about one thing? Do you think people who find video games that cross the line into objectification can't also find homophobia or political injustice also terrible? Personally, I have more than one thing that I care about in the world. Sometimes I like to talk about how much I like video games. Does that mean that I don't also have fond feelings for my family?

@towersixteen: Yes this industry has a lot of gender problems but I do not believe that is one of them. It is a niche product made for a niche market. If someone thinks that the same could be done with men and will sell they should go for it. For example Otome games are basically this. They are written for women or teens with the same situation. They will objectify men and they sell in Japan to a specific female niche market. Some have explicit sex scenes, some have not. Tokimeki Memorial Girls side for example is one of these games. Again does porn degrade women? No it does not.

You know what a big problem is? The twitter thing that happened that is a big problem and that needs to be judged but a harmless game like that? If it sells go for it. It is totally harmless because it is so over the top that no one will ever take this seriously. It is just a game for young teenage boys nothing else.

I doubt it will in the same way.

Senran Kagura Burst makes absolutely no pretenses as to what kind of game it is, who it is for and what it is trying to be. There's no shock value, or news material to be had in that. That's old hat.

Dragon's Crown OTOH was a game that was conceivably aimed at a much, larger, more general and inclusive audience. That's newsworthy for a gawker media entity like Kotaku.

No one will make a stink about it.

People act like the video game industry isn't a big enough place for everything to co-exist. We have think piece games like Journey and Gone Home and then you have your games that exploit violence or sexuality for the sake of it. You've got games in the middle of that even. Point is.... I don't and will never understand why people act like stuff like this is representative of the entire medium. Deuce Bigalow existing doesn't make Schindlers List any less of a powerful film just like Senran Kagura existing doesn't lessen what Gone Home does.

Its a goddamn big industry that caters to entirely different markets. Some people don't like smut others don't. I wish people would quit decrying things they don't like and instead try to fill the industry with things they can identify with and do appreciate and enjoy. You aren't going to stop people from making games like Senran because they sell and they will always sell. I just really don't see why all kinds of games can't exist without people being offended. Its a big industry there is room for a little bit of everything.

It's not going to blow up like DC unless someone gives it a lower review score for the boobs.

Which, if that hindered the reviewer's enjoyment of the game, then whatever, they can say whatever they want.

but I digress. I guess I'm still bitter about how crazy that comments section got on that Polygon review. This isn't going to be that. It's too niche. I guess DC was too, but they've been making creepy, booby, released-somewhat-under-the-radar-in-the-US anime games for a long time and no one has really said anything about it before, I don't know why anyone would start now.

Exactly.

Yeah, I tend to be of this mindset. People will always watch trashy movies, read trashy books, but in the end, those aren't good portrayals of the medium as a whole. No one looks at Fifty Shades of Gray as a literary masterpiece. It exists, and so does everything else.

The bigger things to take issue with are when most of the tentpole video game releases are over-sexualizing people. We still need to keep an eye out for it, but jumping on every little niche title and pointing at it like it's somehow descriptive of a failing on the entire industry's part isn't helping anyone.

I think the pertinent point here is less the obvious sexual bent of the game and more whether the game will encounter the same circumstances as Dragon's Crown. I'd say no for many reasons. The first thing about Dragon's Crown was the way the artist in particular got embroiled in controversy, and rightly so, for the way he responded to criticism leveled at the art direction. I don't see that happening with this game but I guess there's no knowing until it happens.

However key difference is the next game from these developers, on the 3DS to boot, isn't going to get nearly as much inherent interest or exposure anyway. Dragon's Crown was the next game from the team that made Muramasa, which apparently held enough sway to get it in people's hands and generate a discussion which got the ball rolling. Lastly, I think the art style is so traditionally anime and by extension ecchi etc. that it's not standing out in any way more than what people already feel about that kind of anime and manga.

I think it's admirable to really stop ourselves and ask if there really is anything to the overexposed titillation that is all being assumed. It's less about removing it and asking what we really gain out of it besides maybe some principled navel gazing about culture and free speech. Still, you have that once and then ask yourself if your standards are really that low that this the kind of approach that A) you find appealing and B) is worth stomaching for the good stuff if it does exist. In the case of Dragon's Crown the answers were mixed across genders but I think it's great that people are saying "naw, that's kinda unredeeming and gross and there are other games I could play" regardless. For all the heaps of loaded emotional bullshit and misguided attempts at fighting some idea of a feminist threat to games, the spread of opinions from the press side was refreshing.

So in the end no I don't think it will but I do think it's another example of a game doing itself no favors but clearly pandering to an easy audience with little attempts to be a better cultural product. I think with this one, the premise is so much more obvious up front that it won't move the needle much.

Little-to-no reverse equivalent? My goodness where do you live pal if you think videogames provide an accurate depiction of either sex. All forms of entertainment use fantastical characters. Always have, always will. It wasn't until we entered the blog age and everyone felt the need to over-analyze and rip apart every little thing that it's become a problem. I don't watch movies, play games, or read books to get an accurate representation of the people I live around and I don't know why so many people want that.

If someone wants a boob simulator anime porn game, why can't they have it? Who fucking cares? Is it offensive? I don't know, or care. If it offends you, feel free to not buy it.

If someone wants to make a sex game that comes with a USB dildo for ladies (or guys who are into that sorta thing) then why not? Go for it.

I mean this would be an issue if women were portrayed poorly and ALWAYS oversexualized. But that is NOT the case. In fact as the years go by we're getting better written and more frequent strong female characters, not less. So whats the problem with some sexytime games? Theres nothing wrong with sexual fantasy's and if there are games that let people do that, then GOOD. Oh but it might give a poor depiction of women? Well who's looking at a anime game about boobs to give a good depiction of women? It is what it is.

Hell Telltale should make a choose your own adventure erotic thriller, at the start of the game it asks you your sex/gender, sexual orientation and various other preferences and the game changes to fit those. Sexy good time for all! Sex quicktime events for all!

That is to say, women who dress provocatively do not respect themselves.

The amount of games being produced featuring sexually provocative male characters is roughly proportional to the market that will buy them. The amount of games being produced featuring sexually provocative female characters is roughly proportional to the market that will buy them. Do you accept this premise, or would you like to counter?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't think that's what that sentence was meaning at all.

I'm looking at the syntax of the sentence and the context of the discussion and I don't know where else to fall.

The discussion is about women being too provocatively dressed in games. Proposition was a healthy sexual being is one that has self-respect and strength, whatever that means. Women are rarely portrayed as this as games. Why? Because they're dressed too provocatively. Hence, they're not healthy sexual beings. Hence, they don't respect themselves.

You know what. I concede the point.

I wonder if these kinds of discussions spring up on European, British, or Australian game boards.

I really do wonder if this kind of thing is inherent to the Americas and our unique societal outlook on sexuality.

So what. All types of media play towards a certain crowd. It's marketing and demographics. There are men out there (maybe women too) who want to play a game like this. Why do you care? If you don't like it, don't buy it, or maybe go one step further and make a game with giant man-bulges and man-thongs, it doesn't bother me. Sexualization is prevalent in all forms of media and games should be no different. I don't see too many people complaining about movies and books.

That's some smart marketing, there. Make themselves the object of controversy so that more people other than sweaty otaku will buy their creeper anime game.

Japanese creeper anime games implying sexual acts on their covers is not a new thing. Maybe their being released outside of Japan with those covers is new, though. I dunno.

Yep. Also, people will never stop judging others for their tastes. Some journalists feel it's their job to sculpt the industry into their idea of the perfect medium. As the medium gets older these crusaders will still exist but these sensationalist articles wont generate as much attention because they'll be more diversity in games. And people wont feel like their idea for how the medium evolves is under attack.

The game looks like a title that furtive looking people will buy and upload screenshots of to a blog in a very small niche community. I can't see it getting the attention a release like Dragon's Crown got.

On the topic of it's content I can only speak for myself when I say it seems gross and pathetic to me, and then shoot my own argument down by suggesting the people buying (and probably getting off on) the game find some real pornography and reveal that yes I too as a man have sexual thoughts and indulge in them which I'm sure makes me a monster.

I also knew @darji would be in here extolling his "No way man I watch porn for the music and set dressing!" and "The cartoon ladies are real to me! they understand me!" agenda, I should have put money on him appearing and move to suggest he's paid off by cartoon porn lobbyists! #followthemoney #Cartoonpussy

@brodehouse said:

Why? I don't see what else he could have possibly meant.

Brodehouse's patience for... how shall I word this? "People being deliberately obtuse" has waned considerably over the last several months.

1. How about trying to be not as insulting.

2. Actually I watch mostly porn with a a setting and at least some kind of plot or set up. It is more fantasy thing. If I jus see fucking it is not exciting or interesting.

3. Yeah when did I ever say that these anime girls are real to me? It is quite the opposite. Especially Why I think these girls are so far from reality that I do not care about things like sexualisation.

4. Japan's media again is pandering to everyone. Which also counts women. Anime Series like a kuroko no basuke or Free for example pandering to a more female audience and so does their fanservice. Again there is nothing wrong with objectifying or sexualisation of male and female characters. If it serves a market sure. That is why I am saying that Japan goes for everyone who spends ton of money women including. And these niche communities spend a ton of money on this stuff. Like Pillows, boob mousepads, figures and so on.

Well, the link in the OP is from Official Nintendo Magazine.CO.UK. So, yeah, they probably do.

Also, "If I just see fucking, it is not exciting or interesting" - Darji, 2014.

@milkman: whats wrong with that? I can openly speak about these kind of stuff so I do not see this as a problem. Everyone has fantasies and I bet you too^^

@darji: ummm...the only thing that gets me off is RESPECTING WOMEN. And my only fantasy is dying valiantly in the Social Justice Wars for my Social Justice Queen Anita Sarkeesian. Thank you very much!

When I first glanced at your comment, I thought that was a campaign slogan.

I do not accept the twisting of my words- that provocative dress= lack of self-respect. It was merely my observation that one was often present without evidence of the other in portrayals, not that one precludes the other.

And I think the second part is partly self-fulfilling- gaming is often alienating toward women so less women buy games so people can get away with shit by saying it's not for women so they do things that alienate women. I agree that there would still be less market for the reverse, but don't think the female gender is inherently less sexual. So why? I think to answer that we'd have to look at a broader trend in society of twisting female sexuality, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion. But I do think this is less egregious than some because at least it is basically marketing itself as softcore porn at this point, which is at least more honest. It is worse when it infests games that would otherwise be for both genders, forcing women to play as sex objects if they want to play their gender, something men don't have to deal with. Thats not an uncommon thing, still.

lost it at the username "dick bonerflex"

@towersixteen: Don't you think that games just serve a market. for example I do not buy that if Call of Duty has a female protagonist much more women would buy Cod. Men just spend way more money on their hobbies be it cars, sport or video games than most women do. Yes some women also spend a lot of money on games but these are already included in this market. If someone thinks a game would sell better with a female protagonist then they should do it. But even if these are great ones like in Beyond good and Evil or Mirrors Edge, Bayonetta etc. These games just do not sell not matter how good they are. Why? I do not kow exacctly but maybe because many men also do not want to play as a different gender. The problem here is that this market is way too big to be ignored.

You can say as long as you want that 50% of gamers are women but we need to look into what they are playing or what they are interested in. I can guarantee that thee games are either more casual or MMO's. We need not to change the market but rather add new games and genres that also women enjoy. So who cares if games like Nancy Drew are more marketed to women? Who cares if this games is more marketed to boys and men? Create more diversity not through restricted and judging but to adding new games and Ip's

@milkman said:

Preach brother.

@darji: And as I said, that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I never ever said 50 percent of gamers of women. I do say that creating games which alienate women limits the markets ability to grow with women- if you create a game that alienates women, and women don't buy it, and you use that as justification to create games that alienate women that's a cycle you created, not an inevitability of the market like you seem to think. Do I think a female protagonist would dramatically change CoD usage statistics? No, and I think there are a class of mega-shitbirds who wouldn't buy it then. But I do think, say, taking steps to make sure that games in that genre have moderation tools good enough to make a dent in the problem of the community harassing women online at every opportunity would absolutely grow that demographic in the long term. After all, you use that game as an example even though sexualized character designs are not that games problem, but in the same way, if you excused that games problems in the same way by saying well, women don't want to play it anyways otherwise the problem wouldn't exist you'd be just as wrong.

Yes. The fact that I'd heard of it before this post is proof that it is getting free publicity. I don't know what percent of the potential market for games like this is untapped, though.

If that was what was meant, that I can agree with that. I actually do believe that it is better to let these lie unless they're more mainstream already. A lot of people believe the issue itself at large is manufactured nonsense, which is where I take issue.

I know you said this in a jesting manner, but considering you said it, it might be actually true.

@oldirtybearon: I had made an EZ-Break Promise to myself that I was just going to focus on talking about games, why they're fun, and which ones are most fun, because debating the ethics of personal freedom in excruciating detail is just not rewarding anymore. I broke it immediately but now I'm back on the wagon. You can call it givin' up, but someone's gotta look at the lights.

TowerSixteen, I read your reply and I have nothing to counterargue.

I think, in this instance, the game is obviously geared towards a specific audience. I wouldn't look at the cover of this game and assume that it has deep and engaging gameplay, story and characters. I would assume that it is for people who enjoy fanservice and not much else. Maybe that is me "judging" the game based on the art, but there you go. That's the risk a game runs when it features this artwork on the cover and in game.

Dragon's Crown, however, had beautiful art that may not have been to everyone's taste, but you could also tell there was a game underneath that, based on the developers pedigree and stuff like gameplay videos, etc. Yes there were women with ridiculous breasts and thights, but there were also men with ridiculous pecs, thighs, and muscles upon muscles. Both genders were highly stylized. Now, I am not the biggest fan of the art style, but I can impartially see that it is gorgeously rendered, the animations were smooth. It is a good looking game.

I don't really see how these situations are at all similar. Dragon's Crown was a beautiful game with an art style that put some people off, along with some minor mechanics that also some people found a bit worrisome, namely the ability to poke/grope/whatever the bound women that you could come across. It was, however, a game with interesting gameplay that offered depth and while some people may not have liked the art style, a vast majority did. Even people that don't like the styling could see the craft and talent behind the artwork. The other game appears to be a fanservice game with little else to recommend it. it doesn't look anywhere near as beautiful and artistic and doesn't appear to have the same craft behind it. Of course, that's just what I gather from the spare information that I have gleaned from this thread.

In short, no this is not another Dragon's Crown. They're totally different games with different audiences and goals. One is a more mainstream game geared towards a big audience that made an art choice that some people didn't enjoy. The other is a niche title that isn't geared to a larger audience so it is totally fine with being weird and putting off the people that wouldn't have even entertained purchasing it in the first place.