#1 Posted by TastyCakesMcG33 (22 posts) -

I was looking at Greg Kasavin's top 10 and saw he had Dota 2 as his #1. I'm wondering if anyone thinks it's worth trying out. I ask only because I'm fairly deep into the LoL scene and have probably 100+ hours in that myself and am even on my campus' tournament team. I've always looked at Dota/D2 from a far and was kinda fascinated at it, but seeing that I'm this far into LoL, should I make the switch because it's that much better of an experience or not even go there because it's so different?

#2 Posted by Azteck (7447 posts) -

I, like you, have a whole fuck-load of hours played in League and I've played a few games of DotA2, not nearly enough to give a fair judgement but it is one from a fellow league player. Keep in mind I was never into the original Dota scene during the WC3 days. My opinion, and a few of my friends agree, is that League of Legends is just streamlined so well that a lot of the things Dota 2 still has from the original mod seem old and don't really contribute to the rest of the game. I love some things about the game, like the concept of some spells being applied on both enemies and friendlies which can mess up a bunch of things if they aren't used well. That said, it just feels really difficult to keep focus on certain points. My biggest issue is the "lag" that comes with moving and shooting. It really bothers me when I'm used to the snappy reaction of League.

That said, if you want to try it out I have a beta key or two that I could donate. Just keep in mind that while they share a genre, they are very different games.

#3 Posted by TastyCakesMcG33 (22 posts) -

@Azteck: Interesting. I've already gotten into the beta, just never installed anything because I'm working my way through some other games and am still playing League, but thanks anyway. Someone told me that everything in Dota 2 is kind of OP, which makes everything balanced. Can you speak to that with what you've played? Also, what do you mean by the "lag?" Is there a sort of built in lag between movements or is there just an overall issue of lag in D2?

#4 Posted by Garfield518 (390 posts) -

@TastyCakesMcG33 said:

what do you mean by the "lag?" Is there a sort of built in lag between movements or is there just an overall issue of lag in D2?

Every character has a different turning rate, so if you're not used to it, makes everything seem slow and unresponsive.

#5 Posted by Jimi (1126 posts) -

I've played hundreds of hours of both, I have no prior background with dota. Both are fun games but League to me feels like a very dumbed down version of dota, in league the meta game is extremely stale and there is only one accepted lane setup which made me feel like every game was exactly the same. Dota has a lot more diversity in it's lane setups due to the ability to creep pull lanes from the jungle and deny creeps to give total control of the lane. If you even suggested a trilane or a dual mid lane in League it would get shot down instantly.

Supports in League are also very boring compared to dota and fall off a lot harder as the game goes on, I find that a support in dota has a lot more impact throughout the game rather than just acting as a babysitter / ward bitch for the AD carry (league). I find the large amount of active items to be a lot more interesting aswell rather than the passive, stat buffing items league seems to be filled with.

League is by no means a bad game though, I have introduced many people to the genre with it before moving onto Dota 2. I do take issue with them locking away heroes behind a payment wall though, if they advertise it as a highly competitive game then surely for everyone to compete on equal grounds everyone needs to start from the same baseline. The rune system also factors into this. It is very clever by them though as many people at this point have bought into the league ecosystem and won't want to leave because of it.

The hero usefulness disparity is far greater in dota though, some heroes are just straight up better than others (TA, I'm looking at you) meaning that many games can be decided by the draft provided both teams are of similar skill.

#6 Edited by GalacticGravy (523 posts) -

When I decided "I WANT TO TRY MOBA" I decided on DOTA2. I know this isn't true, but something felt a little wrong about LoL. DOTA2 is supposed to be DOTA, but in a nicer package, preserving as much from the original as it can. Whether or not it does that, I don't know. I don't play enough to know much of anything, but it just felt "right" to get into DOTA2, and not some copy...even though DOTA2 is a copy...I don;t really know what I'm saying.

#7 Posted by The_Drizzle (624 posts) -

@Jimi said:

I've played hundreds of hours of both, I have no prior background with dota. Both are fun games but League to me feels like a very dumbed down version of dota, in league the meta game is extremely stale and there is only one accepted lane setup which made me feel like every game was exactly the same. Dota has a lot more diversity in it's lane setups due to the ability to creep pull lanes from the jungle and deny creeps to give total control of the lane. If you even suggested a trilane or a dual mid lane in League it would get shot down instantly.

Supports in League are also very boring compared to dota and fall off a lot harder as the game goes on, I find that a support in dota has a lot more impact throughout the game rather than just acting as a babysitter / ward bitch for the AD carry (league). I find the large amount of active items to be a lot more interesting aswell rather than the passive, stat buffing items league seems to be filled with.

League is by no means a bad game though, I have introduced many people to the genre with it before moving onto Dota 2. I do take issue with them locking away heroes behind a payment wall though, if they advertise it as a highly competitive game then surely for everyone to compete on equal grounds everyone needs to start from the same baseline. The rune system also factors into this. It is very clever by them though as many people at this point have bought into the league ecosystem and won't want to leave because of it.

The hero usefulness disparity is far greater in dota though, some heroes are just straight up better than others (TA, I'm looking at you) meaning that many games can be decided by the draft provided both teams are of similar skill.

Many heroes are very situational and with the current flavor of the month may see little play. However, as teams continue to find new things and implement them (nyx, luna, etc) the competitive hero pool is expanded. Also with TA's nerf to refraction, she has been falling off (see recent G-League matches, gets dominated) so IceFrog always has a pulse on what needs to be changed in order to properly balance the game (and in some cases withholds heroes from being in CM before he is certain they are balanced).

#8 Edited by Tomkang (251 posts) -

I originally played Dota in WC3 with a group of friends in China, so we would have a lot of 10+ man LAN parties. I got into LoL later because it was free and like Dota. Currently i have both LoL and Dota 2, putting most of my time in LoL because the games are shorter and that is what most of my mates currently play after I moved.

Dota 2 is a lot tougher than LoL in terms of mechanics (Perma loss of barracks and Gold loss on death are the biggest). I do enjoy both when I get people who communicate, that seems to happen less in Dota because of the huge number of russian players in the EU side.

The great thing about Dota is that you can form a team from anything, the current meta in LoL is Solo top, Solo mid, Jungle, ADC and Support bot. In Dota pros will roll trilane top/bot, 2-3 carry, mass aoe push strategy etc. It was like everyone getting Promote and Tiamat in LoL.

Items in dota do not increase your characters damage/hp etc. as greatly as in LoL. However carries are much more deadly in Dota, a carry can 1-4 shot enemy players and solo a whole team.

Best advice is to try it out and see which one you prefer. Dota mod was the first and only thing I played on PC for 2 years, though I remember the first months being hell due to learning curve. While they are of the same Genre, strategies are vastly different.

EDIT: LoL was created by Pendragon (think that is his alias), who worked on Dota prior to allstars and Icefrog. LoL is simplified and various comparisons can be drawn from -em or easy mode in Dota 1.

#9 Posted by picklecannon (265 posts) -

@Garfield518 said:

@TastyCakesMcG33 said:

what do you mean by the "lag?" Is there a sort of built in lag between movements or is there just an overall issue of lag in D2?

Every character has a different turning rate, so if you're not used to it, makes everything seem slow and unresponsive.

Pretty sure that stuff was patched out after people complained about it in like the first month of the beta. There should be no lag in dota 2 aside from latency stuff.

I've always preferred dota over LoL because there's no grinding for stuff. Didn't have the patients to farm IP to unlock every hero and rune, which just didn't suit my style (always played random in the original dota). I know they're not 100% necessary to compete but you feel extremely out matched when playing with or against people who have everything. Also the idea that you can't really random properly - since you might not have the proper rune page for what you get- in ranked LoL wasn't enjoyable, although for the most part a standard ap/ad/tank rune page set up would suffice for more heroes anyway.

#10 Posted by Jimi (1126 posts) -

@The_Drizzle: IceFrog is a very good balancer indeed, but there are some heroes which are virtually never picked due to other heroes doing their job, but better. E.G. Phantom Assassin, while great, is just outshined by the other melee carries. Then there's heroes like Treant Protector who just feel worthless for the most part.

I realize it's almost impossible to have a perfectly balanced game with that many heroes, and I do prefer it the way it is rather than nerfing everyone to be bland and uninteresting.

#11 Posted by Blur_Fan (142 posts) -

@Jimi: I've been seeing a lot of both of those heroes lately.

Treant always goes mid - so it makes me think there's some pro strats out there that people are testing or they trying to replicate what they saw in a pro match.

#12 Posted by TastyCakesMcG33 (22 posts) -

Ok so it seems like everyone so far is saying give Dota a chance and try it out, but my only thing is how much of a chance is worth it? I mean, everyone says Dota is much harder and more complex than LoL, so how much time am I look'n at until I get to a point to determine which I prefer? Because I don't want to have to dump 25-30 hours into Dota just to THEN decide if it's my kind of game when I could put 25-30 into something I like already and get better with it. I know it will depend on skill level, but am I just going to have to go through grind hell to figure stuff out or will it just click after playing for so long?

#13 Edited by Blur_Fan (142 posts) -

@TastyCakesMcG33: That's hard to say.

I had to put in some time watching matches and playing against bots. I didn't really grasp solid item use and maneuvers until hour 20 or so.

That said, after the fact, it was time well spent. Winning and pulling of successful ganks/moves has never been so satisfactory in any other competitive game.

Also, with Dota 2's ELO matchmaking, you'll spend some time with same skill level players, learning and teaching each other. Since it went more public this summer, everyone is a lot more cooperative and is willing to teach new players.

Additionally, you can open Steam's web browser to dota2altab.com to show you recommend skill and item builds for heroes!

My time with LoL was limited, but it pales in comparison to what Dota 2 has to offer in terms of competition, in my opinion.

#14 Posted by Blur_Fan (142 posts) -

If anyone wants to dive in, I do have some extra invites. PM me and I'll try and set you up!

#15 Posted by artofwar420 (6227 posts) -

Go where your friends are. If it doesn't matter either way to you, I really suggest you try Dota 2. Very polished.

#16 Edited by LordXavierBritish (6320 posts) -

The real line that splits League of Legends and Dota 2 is their willingness, or lack thereof, to indulge in complexity.

Complexity for the sake of interesting gameplay is important in games like this, I guess we're calling them mobas now, and really when you break them down to the core molecular levels of basic design that is the one single line each of the games sit on exact opposite sides of.

In the case of League of Legends, it is unwilling to indulge in complexity. From time to time it will release a new champion with a unique or complicated kit, but most of the time it plays very safe. There are very few items that really effect the flow of a game outside of raw stats, the map is as symmetrical as possible, and for the most part once you've learned one champ you've at least got a baisc footing for them all. This makes League a very accessible game, at least as far as mobas go. It's not exactly simple, but it is streamlined. That is why it has gathered such a large following and seen serious success in gathering an audience for professional play.

League of Legends is: Simple to play, easy to learn, hard to master.

Dota 2 on the other hand overindulges in complexity. In many cases it introduces complexity for complexity's sake. This could be a bad thing, except Icefrog and the rest of the team have done an incredible job of keeping everything under control and have, up to this point, kept a pretty level playing field. Dota 2 is controlled chaos, it's thousands of variables flying around and crashing into each other to create a spectacle unlike anything else you'll find. No two heroes truely play the same, every time the game starts the map will be different, and even after heroes are picked there is still no way to tell exactly how a match will go down.

Dota 2 is: Hard to learn, unbridled freedom, controlled chaos.

#17 Posted by TastyCakesMcG33 (22 posts) -

@Blur_Fan: True enough, I suppose. But I know the map(s) of LoL so well, every little bush and lane, all the champs, the meta, all that kinda stuff. Guess trying out Dota doesn't mean I have to stop playing LoL, but that's a lot of time into something I'm not sure I'll stay with. I might decide after the tourney season on campus is over, cause that's a lot of time I don't get to spend practicing with my team. I'll probably do what you did and start watching matches, looking at tutorials and bigger vids and such. Are there just as many pro guide sites out there for Dota as there are for LoL? There seems to be an excess for LoL sites and it gets really screwy for new players, so got any suggestions beyond the data2altab?

#18 Posted by Garfield518 (390 posts) -

@picklecannon said:

@Garfield518 said:

@TastyCakesMcG33 said:

what do you mean by the "lag?" Is there a sort of built in lag between movements or is there just an overall issue of lag in D2?

Every character has a different turning rate, so if you're not used to it, makes everything seem slow and unresponsive.

Pretty sure that stuff was patched out after people complained about it in like the first month of the beta.

Uh... no. There are still turning rates.

#19 Posted by Blur_Fan (142 posts) -

@LordXavierBritish: Couldn't have put it better myself :D

@TastyCakesMcG33: The best guides are videos of people using heroes. Purge, who is also a caster, is one of the best imho. Good insightful tips and his knowledge of the game is deep

http://www.youtube.com/user/purgegamers

#20 Edited by EXTomar (4125 posts) -

If there was ever a time to use "Comparing apples to oranges" a great time is use it is with LoL and Dota 2. Although they are both "MOBA", the way they handle are fundamentally different. There are a few skills that can translate between but for the most part it is....apples and oranges.

I don't want to make LoL seem easier or lesser but there are many things it eskews that Dota 2 embraces. Fog of War and final hits/denies are important and the size of the map in Dota 2 makes timing and pace much more important. Rushing a push or abandoning the lane too soon can spell defeat as much as feeding kills to opponents. Likewise taking too long and not supporting a push or not spending enough time "roaming to gank" also dooms your team. I don't know if LoL ever gets into that kind of meta-game strategy which doesn't make it better or worse but different.

#21 Posted by TastyCakesMcG33 (22 posts) -

Thank you kindly.

Now this is just me being lazy and not doing my own research, but for Dota, all champs are open or available or unlocked from the get go? Or is there a payment system like LoL?

#22 Posted by picklecannon (265 posts) -

@Garfield518 said:

@picklecannon said:

@Garfield518 said:

@TastyCakesMcG33 said:

what do you mean by the "lag?" Is there a sort of built in lag between movements or is there just an overall issue of lag in D2?

Every character has a different turning rate, so if you're not used to it, makes everything seem slow and unresponsive.

Pretty sure that stuff was patched out after people complained about it in like the first month of the beta.

Uh... no. There are still turning rates.

Yeah sorry, quoted the wrong thing. The intentional delay they had was patched out.

#23 Edited by EXTomar (4125 posts) -

All heroes are open but you might not want to take them. :) There is a cash shop (this is Valve after all) where you can buy costumes and PPV to tournaments but no heroes. In fact there are heroes still being worked on where the big one off the top of my head are the Phoenix and Demon Lord are still not in the game.

#24 Posted by Blur_Fan (142 posts) -

Heroes will ALYWAYS be free in Dota 2 - you just pay for cosmetic items and keys for chests/crates, ala TF2

#25 Posted by GlenTennis (3143 posts) -

I went from about 1200 games of LoL to DotA 2 about a year ago. I switched because all my friends did and I'm glad that I did. Everyone I know who made the switch and stuck with it believes DotA 2 to be a far superior game, myself included.

#26 Posted by Flacracker (1391 posts) -

Besides the mechanics of Dota 2 which make it a lot better like denying, the presentation is a lot better. Animations in Dota 2 are very smooth and the graphics look great. The spell effects are also a lot better. I often found myself in LoL not being able to follow my character.

#27 Edited by Tomkang (251 posts) -

@TastyCakesMcG33 said:

@Blur_Fan: True enough, I suppose. But I know the map(s) of LoL so well, every little bush and lane, all the champs, the meta, all that kinda stuff. Guess trying out Dota doesn't mean I have to stop playing LoL, but that's a lot of time into something I'm not sure I'll stay with. I might decide after the tourney season on campus is over, cause that's a lot of time I don't get to spend practicing with my team. I'll probably do what you did and start watching matches, looking at tutorials and bigger vids and such. Are there just as many pro guide sites out there for Dota as there are for LoL? There seems to be an excess for LoL sites and it gets really screwy for new players, so got any suggestions beyond the data2altab?

There is only one Dota site on a scale of MobaFire in english. That is http://www.playdota.com/ which spawned from the mod and is where all the patches for the mod are released.

Mobafire did release their Dota site, which is Dotafire though.

To learn Dota faster, be ready to learn the mechanics

http://www.playdota.com/mechanics

#28 Posted by TheDudeOfGaming (6077 posts) -

Dota 2.

#29 Posted by Deathcrush (49 posts) -

I have played a scary amount of both dota 2 and lol and you should just pick the one you like the most and play that one. they are both great

#30 Posted by FirePrince (1762 posts) -

LoL is with what every MOBA player starts.

Then, you move on to Dota, where the real deal starts. I played a ton of LoL myself, but after playing Dota, I just realised that's the more competitive game. And after 300+ hours in the MOBA genre, you want to be playing the most competitive stuff there is.

That's just my take. Plus, so many LoL champions have copied skills from Dota it actually shocked me the moment I played Dota.

#31 Posted by Terramagi (1159 posts) -

DotA 2 is a better game, if only by virtue of "champions" not being deliberately imbalanced and thrown into ranked so people throw 10 bucks at each of them.

Yeah, all 108 (well, 90ish right now) heroes for free. That's what happens when you're not beholden to a predatory Chinese company.

#32 Posted by TastyCakesMcG33 (22 posts) -

Interesting opinions all around. Seems like the general masses are saying play Dota and get used to that, then you won't want to play LoL any more because you'll like Dota so much more. I shall try it out then. Thanks to all for the info.

#33 Posted by Tomkang (251 posts) -

To put it in perspective, it has been the most played game on Steam for best part of a year and it is still in 'closed beta'.

#34 Posted by connerthekewlkid (1773 posts) -

@Tomkang said:

To put it in perspective, it has been the most played game on Steam for best part of a year and it is still in 'closed beta'.

but cmon you dont even have to try to get a key for it anymore

#35 Edited by Tomkang (251 posts) -

I had 7 keys and gave them all away to people who had been waiting since the first International lol

Last one was last week infact

#36 Posted by TastyCakesMcG33 (22 posts) -

Ya I've never played Dota before and just wanted a key for the heck of it and got it within a week, so it's rather simple I'd say.

#37 Posted by connerthekewlkid (1773 posts) -

@TastyCakesMcG33 said:

Ya I've never played Dota before and just wanted a key for the heck of it and got it within a week, so it's rather simple I'd say.

ive still got 6 in my inventory that nobody wants

#38 Posted by Tomkang (251 posts) -

@connerthekewlkid:

I remember this time last year when you could sell them at £20 each. Dota forums exploded with sales, trades and scams.

#39 Posted by Mr_Skeleton (5117 posts) -

Dota 2, let me know if anyone needs an invite.

#40 Posted by Sweep (8542 posts) -

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, YES

Don't buy it though. There are millions of invites out there, ask around, I'm sure someone has a spare lying around.

Moderator
#41 Posted by Korolev (1648 posts) -

My brother plays LoL a lot and he has tried DOTA2. From what I've gathered from him, DOTA2 might be the more technically complex game, but it's also a lot less fun at first and very difficult to get into. LoL is simpler, but more fun and still has enough complexity to reward good play style. DOTA2 seems to have been made specifically for tournaments, whereas LoL seems to have been made with the general idea of becoming a massive hit, but one that still has good balance and room for tactics.