ME2 and 1 VS KOTOR? Are conversations getting dumbed down?

Sure its good fun when you click on like 2-3 words and the character gets the gist of what you want to say and just says it in his own words. But really isn't it getting dumbed down?? I remember in Kotor where i wanted to be either good or bad, and i read each option carefully to consider which one was the baddest, most benevolent, or (on one play-through) neutral. Now your much more of a spectator, its like, "would like your character to get pissed off or be charming??". After my first run, i just always had the top or bottom part of the convo selected and spammed the spacebar to get to my good or bad points and action.  
 
Sure you might say it's not a big deal, but i think its a step backward from integrated interactivity. 

Ya, it's one of the many things that is pissing me off about them dumbing down Dragon Age 2. There are many times in Mass Effect where my character said something I didn't want her to because the choices were not very clear, and I never had that problem in Dragon Age, KOTOR and all the old school RPG's that do it. Sadly those of us like you and I are shit out of luck because everything is being dumbed down for the masses across the board and that's always one of the first things to go.

I would say no. You are still able to get the gist of what they are saying and choose in accordance to your alignment.

Only Elitists call streamlining, "dumb-down." As if anything that isn't overly complicated is too simple and only intended for toddlers. 
 
"It isn't a game unless I'm spending hours in menus and reading text!!!"

" Only Elitists call streamlining, "dumb-down." As if anything that isn't overly complicated is too simple and only intended for toddlers.   "It isn't a game unless I'm spending hours in menus and reading text!!!" "

It's because ME has you play as 'Shepard' and allows you determine how he/she'll act but still in the confines of the character. Games like KOTOR/Dragon Age (the original of course..) instead have you build your character straight from the ground up thus allowing you much more specific dialogue choices. 
I'm not saying I prefer the approach in games like ME/Alpha Protocol, but that's what I think why there's such a distinction.

Text parser or GTFO.

" Only Elitists call streamlining, "dumb-down." As if anything that isn't overly complicated is too simple and only intended for toddlers.   "It isn't a game unless I'm spending hours in menus and reading text!!!" "

" Ya, it's one of the many things that is pissing me off about them dumbing down Dragon Age 2. There are many times in Mass Effect where my character said something I didn't want her to because the choices were not very clear, and I never had that problem in Dragon Age, KOTOR and all the old school RPG's that do it. Sadly those of us like you and I are shit out of luck because everything is being dumbed down for the masses across the board and that's always one of the first things to go. "

" . Sadly those of us like you and I are shit out of luck because everything is being dumbed down for the masses across the board and that's always one of the first things to go. "

" Only Elitists call streamlining, "dumb-down." As if anything that isn't overly complicated is too simple and only intended for toddlers.   "It isn't a game unless I'm spending hours in menus and reading text!!!" "

Speaking truthfully, apart from the combat, most of the mechanics in ME aren't an evolution from KOTOR, they are mostly the same.  
 
But I agree with the conversation aspect. The options are much less clearer now. 

Dumbed down is the wrong term for it. While not perfect Mass Effect feels a bit more organic, there's something weird about reading out the exact lines your character is going to say ala KOTOR and Dragon Age. With Mass Effect you effectively choose the intent and then the conversation plays out. Keep in mind that all the dialogue is spoken in Mass Effect, imagine how redundnt it would be if you read the text read exactly as the speech that follows it?

i really can't see how they could've "dumb down" kotors dialog system seeing as it was all: 
1.) yes, i'll help you 
2.) no, in fact i'm gonna force lightning this entire planet of kittens because you bothered me  
 
might as well just make it BLUE=GOOD and RED=BAD and save yourself some writing

" Only Elitists call streamlining, "dumb-down." As if anything that isn't overly complicated is too simple and only intended for toddlers.   "It isn't a game unless I'm spending hours in menus and reading text!!!" "

Kotor, Dragon Age ans Mass Effect are all great games and the conversation options make sense for what the games try to be, I'm a bit concerned that DA2 is going in the direction of ME, but if the number of options remains the same I don't really see a problem with it. The great think about DA was that there was no good or evil unlike KotOR or Mass Effect it was just choices you made and they had consequences, but it wasn't like you had a good/evil meter. In KotOR you end up maxing out dark or light side to make the force powers cheaper and there was no reason to plaything but one of the extremes.

organic

"The only options that make any difference at all are colour coded specifically to make sure to you don't make a decision you don't want to..."

" @mazik765 said:

"The only options that make any difference at all are colour coded specifically to make sure to you don't make a decision you don't want to..."

Isn't that exactly the point he's making?  I think that is precisely where it stops being streamlining and starts being 'dumbing-down'.  Colour coding the responses really is toddler territory.  That design decision is made entirely so people can play it without needing to engage their brain or consider what they're doing (I'm playing a Blue Guy!  Give me the Blue Points!).  If people want to play an RPG without the inconvenience of being asked to role-play, then why not just give them the option to select Blue Guy or Red Guy at the start and just play the appropriate cutscenes and dialogue automatically? Games are still supposed to be an interactive medium aren't they?  Especially RPGs.  If it's fine to just keep 'streamlining' out interactivity without question (doing so is elitist, apparently) then what you eventually end up with is a movie. "

" @hexx462 said:

organic

Yup. I applaud the system. It allows you to react more quickly and more naturally. I find the conversations have a much nicer flow when you're not just reading all the lines and then having the one you picked read back to you. "

conversations aren't being dumbed down at all. 
 
its choice that is getting stripped away. remember in KOTOR when you could actually be bad? 
now with mass effect your choices are be polite or be a dick about something. 

It's just more efficient, gets the idea across without having to read any extra bullshit. Also it's more fun because reading a whole line, then picking it, then hearing the voice actor say it, is really annoying. This way, you find out what he's saying as he's saying it, more interesting this way. 

" conversations aren't being dumbed down at all.  its choice that is getting stripped away. remember in KOTOR when you could actually be bad? now with mass effect your choices are be polite or be a dick about something.  "

" It's just more efficient, gets the idea across without having to read any extra bullshit. Also it's more fun because reading a whole line, then picking it, then hearing the voice actor say it, is really annoying. This way, you find out what he's saying as he's saying it, more interesting this way.  "

"I do get the gist of what your trying to say, but organic is the wrong word... fluid would be right.  I'm not denying its more fluid, i'm just saying its more like a movie and less like a game.  "

" I'd actually go as far to say I think Bioware's dialogue device will be one of the better take-aways of this generation. "

" @ProfessorEss said:

" I'd actually go as far to say I think Bioware's dialogue device will be one of the better take-aways of this generation. "

Definitely. It's possibly my favorite part of the Mass Effect games, there's actually a bit of suspense in not knowing exactly what is going to be said and makes the dialogue much more entertaining. "

" @gamefreak9 said:

"I do get the gist of what your trying to say, but organic is the wrong word... fluid would be right.  I'm not denying its more fluid, i'm just saying its more like a movie and less like a game.  "

 Fair point on fluid vs organic. But if you're reading a lot of text I could replace the word "movie" with "novel" in that statement and make the same argument in the case of KOTOR or DA. "

" @Jimbo said:

" @mazik765 said:

"The only options that make any difference at all are colour coded specifically to make sure to you don't make a decision you don't want to..."

Isn't that exactly the point he's making?  I think that is precisely where it stops being streamlining and starts being 'dumbing-down'.  Colour coding the responses really is toddler territory.  That design decision is made entirely so people can play it without needing to engage their brain or consider what they're doing (I'm playing a Blue Guy!  Give me the Blue Points!).  If people want to play an RPG without the inconvenience of being asked to role-play, then why not just give them the option to select Blue Guy or Red Guy at the start and just play the appropriate cutscenes and dialogue automatically? Games are still supposed to be an interactive medium aren't they?  Especially RPGs.  If it's fine to just keep 'streamlining' out interactivity without question (doing so is elitist, apparently) then what you eventually end up with is a movie. "

WHat he said, exactly, right off my tongue, if its that linear, just give us a choice from the start of the game which will give us different endings and different interactions. Why bother giving us a choice??

" @gamefreak9 said:

" @Jimbo said:

" @mazik765 said:

"The only options that make any difference at all are colour coded specifically to make sure to you don't make a decision you don't want to..."

Isn't that exactly the point he's making?  I think that is precisely where it stops being streamlining and starts being 'dumbing-down'.  Colour coding the responses really is toddler territory.  That design decision is made entirely so people can play it without needing to engage their brain or consider what they're doing (I'm playing a Blue Guy!  Give me the Blue Points!).  If people want to play an RPG without the inconvenience of being asked to role-play, then why not just give them the option to select Blue Guy or Red Guy at the start and just play the appropriate cutscenes and dialogue automatically? Games are still supposed to be an interactive medium aren't they?  Especially RPGs.  If it's fine to just keep 'streamlining' out interactivity without question (doing so is elitist, apparently) then what you eventually end up with is a movie. "

WHat he said, exactly, right off my tongue, if its that linear, just give us a choice from the start of the game which will give us different endings and different interactions. Why bother giving us a choice??

The games you used as examples of how to do it properly had the EXACT same linear paths. You were good or bad. The only difference between that and Mass Effect is that they make sure you understand the decision you're making via the colour, rather than leaving it to potentially ambiguous statements. So you're basically saying is it is dumbed down because it allows people to better understand the choice they are making? To me this sounds like a natural improvement of a game play mechanic that was not doing the job it was designed to do. "

I much prefer the ME style of picking the tone or general jist of what you're going to say rather than having it be spelled out in a list of possible lines of dialogue. Part of it is that it gives the games, especially in  ME2, the opportunity to open up and play through rather dramatic scenes that I'm still affecting the narrative path that it goes down while side-stepping the issue of me just  feeling like I'm picking through menus; it gives it that cinematic effect that it is trying to achieve. And I don't think that seeing the whole line of text before choosing it changes the fact that I would pick the same stance; as others have said, it wasn't like it was ever really hard in KotOR to see which line of dialogue or moral decision was the clearly dark side or light side one.  
 
I think the real issue is the whole issue of a binary morality systems. By having Dark Side and Light Side, or Paragon and Renegade, the whole system breaks down because it becomes "Choosing X to get these points", especially if you're working to get particular content that will only unlock if your Bad or Good meter is high enough. One of the frustrations I've had is going through a game of Mass Effect, having my character change through her experiences, and instead of being rewarded for that character development, have it be that my P/R points split down the middle so I can't make certain, higher level dialogue choices. Conversely, the thing that DAO got so right was that it had no binary morality system, and merely gave you a set of choices that clearly had positive and negative sides to the arguments. Another game that did this remarkably well was Alpha Protocol, which used a system that was even further removed from straight lines of dialogue than older RPGs used, but had a very complex set of perimeters that created a very powerful sense of decision making the affected the way the end of that game played out.

" @mazik765 said:

" @gamefreak9 said:

" @Jimbo said:

" @mazik765 said:

"The only options that make any difference at all are colour coded specifically to make sure to you don't make a decision you don't want to..."

Isn't that exactly the point he's making?  I think that is precisely where it stops being streamlining and starts being 'dumbing-down'.  Colour coding the responses really is toddler territory.  That design decision is made entirely so people can play it without needing to engage their brain or consider what they're doing (I'm playing a Blue Guy!  Give me the Blue Points!).  If people want to play an RPG without the inconvenience of being asked to role-play, then why not just give them the option to select Blue Guy or Red Guy at the start and just play the appropriate cutscenes and dialogue automatically? Games are still supposed to be an interactive medium aren't they?  Especially RPGs.  If it's fine to just keep 'streamlining' out interactivity without question (doing so is elitist, apparently) then what you eventually end up with is a movie. "

WHat he said, exactly, right off my tongue, if its that linear, just give us a choice from the start of the game which will give us different endings and different interactions. Why bother giving us a choice??

The games you used as examples of how to do it properly had the EXACT same linear paths. You were good or bad. The only difference between that and Mass Effect is that they make sure you understand the decision you're making via the colour, rather than leaving it to potentially ambiguous statements. So you're basically saying is it is dumbed down because it allows people to better understand the choice they are making? To me this sounds like a natural improvement of a game play mechanic that was not doing the job it was designed to do. "

Translating text to good or bad was like a little mini game, which added to the interactivity, now that minigame has been aborted for dramatic effect, which is not all bad, its just a move that undermines what gaming is about.  "

" @gamefreak9 said:

" @mazik765 said:

" @gamefreak9 said:

" @Jimbo said:

" @mazik765 said:

"The only options that make any difference at all are colour coded specifically to make sure to you don't make a decision you don't want to..."

Isn't that exactly the point he's making?  I think that is precisely where it stops being streamlining and starts being 'dumbing-down'.  Colour coding the responses really is toddler territory.  That design decision is made entirely so people can play it without needing to engage their brain or consider what they're doing (I'm playing a Blue Guy!  Give me the Blue Points!).  If people want to play an RPG without the inconvenience of being asked to role-play, then why not just give them the option to select Blue Guy or Red Guy at the start and just play the appropriate cutscenes and dialogue automatically? Games are still supposed to be an interactive medium aren't they?  Especially RPGs.  If it's fine to just keep 'streamlining' out interactivity without question (doing so is elitist, apparently) then what you eventually end up with is a movie. "

WHat he said, exactly, right off my tongue, if its that linear, just give us a choice from the start of the game which will give us different endings and different interactions. Why bother giving us a choice??

The games you used as examples of how to do it properly had the EXACT same linear paths. You were good or bad. The only difference between that and Mass Effect is that they make sure you understand the decision you're making via the colour, rather than leaving it to potentially ambiguous statements. So you're basically saying is it is dumbed down because it allows people to better understand the choice they are making? To me this sounds like a natural improvement of a game play mechanic that was not doing the job it was designed to do. "

Translating text to good or bad was like a little mini game, which added to the interactivity, now that minigame has been aborted for dramatic effect, which is not all bad, its just a move that undermines what gaming is about.  "

The problem is that this 'minigame' leaves the text meaning up to interpretation. What you see as being a terribly evil option might not appear that way to someone else. Like I said, the colour does not take away the interactivity at all. You still have the same options you did in previous games, but you eliminate the ambiguous dialogue decisions and errors resulting from them. So no I don't think it's dumbed down, I think that the mechanic has been fixed in a necessary way to allow people to clearly understand the decisions they are making. "

The dialog system they used makes sense for fast-paced games like Mass Effect, since you're trying to save the universe and don't have a lot of time, but for games that aren't as fast, and take a longer time, not only in gameplay, but in story as well, they should stick to the old system.

I do like the dialog wheel, although you are correct in that as soon as you make one choice, you've practically decided the rest of your choices. I hope ME3 supports more of a middle ground.

The description of what's being said for each dialogue options are dumbed down but the gameplay is still the same. I'm still choosing whether I want to be good, bad, or neutral. Having the option be a few sentences long rather than a phrase doesn't make the option more fleshed out. It just makes it tedious to me. Choosing the simplified description of an option wasn't just about getting points to me. It also made watching my character's reaction much more entertaining as I only know the theme of my response, not the content. Why not select blue guy or red guy from the start as one poster commented? Because I wasn't simply a blue guy or red guy. I was a mixture of the two, as most realistic characters are. Sometimes I just wanted to shoot a guy in the face and be done with it.

Mass Effect really does need a "netrual alignment", it's my only complaint about the dialogue system.

yeah, i just think that games are being dumbed down for more people to be able to play them. stop doing thins to my games they are very annoying.

" conversations aren't being dumbed down at all.  its choice that is getting stripped away. remember in KOTOR when you could actually be bad? now with mass effect your choices are be polite or be a dick about something.  "

The idea that the game giving us more information (ie., color coding) is somehow "dumbed down" seems wrong to me. I'd much rather a game give me more information than less. That ME lets me choose knowingly what direction I'm going is a good thing. The idea that people are playing as a "blue guy" or "red guy" is silly, and the stats Bioware released about how often people skip dialogue (rarely) seems to demonstrate that most players are paying attention.
 
But, then, if they don't want to pay attention, it's no concern of mine. It sounds like a lot of people here simply don't like that people aren't playing the game the same way they are.

I'm actually playing through KOTOR now, since it was just $2.50 on steam, and I never played it when it came out.  I played through Mass Effect 1 and 2, and it is easy to see how KOTOR is a precursor to ME.  The conversations in Mass Effect are definitely more cinematic, and I can understand and appreciate the design choice of only showing a "teaser" on the dialog choice menu and then having a longer conversation play out.  That's fine by me.  However, I do not like the Mass Effect system of having paragon choices on top and renegade choices on bottom.  I understand why they did it - in a sense, instead of having the player pick precise responses, he or she is just given three options for every choice - be nice, be neutral, be a jerk.  It's too easy to be good (or bad).  In fact, I was able to complete the endgame sequence without anyone dying just by completing everyone's loyalty mission, choosing the most powerful character for each mission, and then making "good" choices (I think) at every turn.  
Most conversations in KOTOR are like this, but occasionally you do get more than three choices and occasionally it's not always clear which is the light side and which is the dark side option.  I would actually have liked the game to offer even more  ambiguous  dialog choices.  It's fun to have to think a situation and try to choose between unclear options.  It's like in Ultima 4 - some of you may remember that when you entered Skara Brae, there was an NPC who would ask you if you'd  reached the summit of spiritual perfection (or something like that).  Now, even if you had achieved partial avatarhood in spirituality or even if your were a full eight-part avatar, if you answered yes you'd loose points in humility.  Now, you could disagree with Richard Garriot's interpretation of humility or virtue in general, but the conversation made you think.  Now, before anyone jumps on me, I'm not saying one option is better or worse in any absolute sense - I'm just saying what I prefer. 
If I could make my dream RPG, the conversation system would be somewhere between KOTOR and ME - there would not be a 1-to-1 relationship between what I see in the choice menu and what the character says, but there would be meaningful and ambiguous choices.

You a game that had a great conversation system? The Witcher.

Everything in gaming is getting dumbed down, except for graphics. Graphics do NOT make up for a lack of gameplay.

" Only Elitists call streamlining, "dumb-down." As if anything that isn't overly complicated is too simple and only intended for toddlers.   "It isn't a game unless I'm spending hours in menus and reading text!!!" "

" @Bones8677 said:

" Only Elitists call streamlining, "dumb-down." As if anything that isn't overly complicated is too simple and only intended for toddlers.   "It isn't a game unless I'm spending hours in menus and reading text!!!" "

Don't start that shit again.

We had this argument yesterday, remember?

He's right, you're wrong, get on with your life, don't start a flamewar.

 Have you learned nothing from yesterday?

He's not elitist, he's speaking the truth. It's not streamlining, it's dumbing down. Plain and simple. "

" Everything in gaming is getting dumbed down, except for graphics. Graphics do NOT make up for a lack of gameplay. "

You're not playing 'your guy', you're loosely directing Commander Shepard.  What's the difference, when you're just choosing pre-written text for your character anyway.  If you want a guy you can control completely, play tabletop games.  Otherwise quit bitching and get out of the kitchen.