@Oldirtybearon:
No, you might have some merit to what you are saying. But you have to back it up with proper sources. I mean if you want me to point you in the right direction:
An important statistic is lack of females in hard sciences-engineering, computer sciences, math etc. That is pretty much irrefutable and has relevance to the conversation. Go find a baseline statistic.
@flindip: But the thing is, those statistics are talked about and upheld in the lecture I linked to. If nobody is willing to see it and instead ignore it because of ideological disagreements, then there is no debate here. There is no argument. @Animasta simply does not wish to entertain notions or opinions outside of his/her political and ideological viewpoint. It's not unheard of, dude. It's called being an asshole.
@Oldirtybearon said:
@flindip: But the thing is, those statistics are talked about and upheld in the lecture I linked to. If nobody is willing to see it and instead ignore it because of ideological disagreements, then there is no debate here. There is no argument. @Animasta simply does not wish to entertain notions or opinions outside of his/her political and ideological viewpoint. It's not unheard of, dude. It's called being an asshole.
He has people stand up in a room, and begins basing his viewpoints on murky distinctions. Find the national statistic yourself, it can't be hard.
Can't we all agreed that Tomb Raider has made everyone sexist, regardless of what side of the fence you're on?
@FateOfNever said:
Can't we all agreed that Tomb Raider has made everyone sexist, regardless of what side of the fence you're on?
Its made me wish that they just make her tits gigantic again while she is fighting demon zombies or whatever contrived bullshit they had in the previous games. Would have saved us all this nonsense.
Apparently you can't apply the "Die Hard" pathos to females atm.
@flindip: that was an exercise designed to illustrate the points he makes in the latter half of the video as well as the remaining videos. Like I said, if you can't even be bothered to watch the material, why are we having this discussion?
@Oldirtybearon said:
@Animasta: So basically anything that challenges your perception of reality is met with hostility or ignorance. Good to know.
Sounds like someone is projecting.
@pekoe212 said:
@JasonR86 said:
@Animasta said:
tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.
I wonder
There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.
Well, guess what, I would like a realistic female protagonist who doesn't have to put up with sexual harassment or attempted rape in order to "develop her character." Most female protagonist are hypersexualized cartoony type characters. But the games that are more narrative-heavy and attempt to develop the female protagonist's character inevitably go thru all the "we must put her in situations where she feels vulnerable and where men try to do awful things to her because she's a woman". Why can't I just have my power fantasy???? Many women experience rape and harassment in their daily lives, the last thing they want is to go through that again in a video game -- which they are playing to have FUN. Playing as a female protagonist, I want to feel EMPOWERED as a woman and have the fantasy of living in a world without that shit.
Well, guess what, I would like a realistic male protagonist who doesn't have to be a roided up space marine curb stopping everyone to develop their characters... There are plenty of female characters that are strong and not overly sexualized, ala Elika from Prince of Persia, Jade from Beyond Good and Evil, Chell from Portal, Lightning from Final Fantasy etc... So many good ones. Yet no one blows there lid when we see the four millionth muscle bag of a protagonist taking bullets to the face. There is a double standard in this industry and it makes people feel good to come out and say hey that's sexist, and I'm against sexism. That makes me an intelligent person right? RIGHT? Because... video games.
@Erk_Forever said:
@Oldirtybearon said:
@Animasta: So basically anything that challenges your perception of reality is met with hostility or ignorance. Good to know.
Sounds like someone is projecting.
and boom goes the dynamite
@Pinworm45 said:
@LiquidPrince said:
@Jimbo: I apologize if my grammar was off... Wrote the rant on my cell phone while at work.
You're so tired of this subject that you wrote a huge topic on it on a cell phone at work? You were that eager to discuss a subject you're tired of hearing about? k
No I'm not tired of the subject. I'm tired of reading the one sided bull shit of everyone calling any game with a slightly "sexy" character misogynistic. I'm tired of the stupid double standards where it's okay for a roided up male character to run around curb stomping other dudes, but if it's a girl then oh my god the world is ending because women can't possibly be hurt or killed in a video game without it being some sort of rape fantasy... Because real women don't want to be seen as sexy. And any one who is sexy is obviously instantly objectified.
@LiquidPrince said:
@pekoe212 said:
@JasonR86 said:
@Animasta said:
tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.
I wonder
There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.
Well, guess what, I would like a realistic female protagonist who doesn't have to put up with sexual harassment or attempted rape in order to "develop her character." Most female protagonist are hypersexualized cartoony type characters. But the games that are more narrative-heavy and attempt to develop the female protagonist's character inevitably go thru all the "we must put her in situations where she feels vulnerable and where men try to do awful things to her because she's a woman". Why can't I just have my power fantasy???? Many women experience rape and harassment in their daily lives, the last thing they want is to go through that again in a video game -- which they are playing to have FUN. Playing as a female protagonist, I want to feel EMPOWERED as a woman and have the fantasy of living in a world without that shit.
Well, guess what, I would like a realistic male protagonist who doesn't have to be a roided up space marine curb stopping everyone to develop their characters... There are plenty of female characters that are strong and not overly sexualized, ala Elika from Prince of Persia, Jade from Beyond Good and Evil, Chell from Portal, Lightning from Final Fantasy etc... So many good ones. Yet no one blows there lid when we see the four millionth muscle bag of a protagonist taking bullets to the face. There is a double standard in this industry and it makes people feel good to come out and say hey that's sexist, and I'm against sexism. That makes me an intelligent person right? RIGHT? Because... video games.
I can think of plenty of non roided up space marines in shooters... Artyom from Metro 2033, Degtyarev from stalker: CoP, Strelok from stalker; SoC, hell, everyone in CoD, Fear dude, far cry 2 dude... these are just from shooters btw. There's a WIDE RANGE of body types for men in video games.
also, four does not equal plenty, and chell is hardly a character, so that's really only 3 (also if you say Samus I'll punch you, because when they decided to make her a character was Other M)
Not saying it's the biggest deal in the world, but to say that there's plenty of those female characters... untrue.
@Animasta said:
@LiquidPrince said:
@pekoe212 said:
@JasonR86 said:
@Animasta said:
tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.
I wonder
There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.
Well, guess what, I would like a realistic female protagonist who doesn't have to put up with sexual harassment or attempted rape in order to "develop her character." Most female protagonist are hypersexualized cartoony type characters. But the games that are more narrative-heavy and attempt to develop the female protagonist's character inevitably go thru all the "we must put her in situations where she feels vulnerable and where men try to do awful things to her because she's a woman". Why can't I just have my power fantasy???? Many women experience rape and harassment in their daily lives, the last thing they want is to go through that again in a video game -- which they are playing to have FUN. Playing as a female protagonist, I want to feel EMPOWERED as a woman and have the fantasy of living in a world without that shit.
Well, guess what, I would like a realistic male protagonist who doesn't have to be a roided up space marine curb stopping everyone to develop their characters... There are plenty of female characters that are strong and not overly sexualized, ala Elika from Prince of Persia, Jade from Beyond Good and Evil, Chell from Portal, Lightning from Final Fantasy etc... So many good ones. Yet no one blows there lid when we see the four millionth muscle bag of a protagonist taking bullets to the face. There is a double standard in this industry and it makes people feel good to come out and say hey that's sexist, and I'm against sexism. That makes me an intelligent person right? RIGHT? Because... video games.
I can think of plenty of non roided up space marines in shooters... Artyom from Metro 2033, Degtyarev from stalker: CoP, Strelok from stalker; SoC, hell, everyone in CoD, Fear dude, far cry 2 dude... these are just from shooters btw. There's a WIDE RANGE of body types for men in video games.
also, four does not equal plenty, and chell is hardly a character, so that's really only 3 (also if you say Samus I'll punch you, because when they decided to make her a character was Other M)
Not saying it's the biggest deal in the world, but to say that there's plenty of those female characters... untrue.
lolwut. All of those examples were essentially the same as any other character. Oh, one dude has a beard.
@Animasta said:
@LiquidPrince said:
@pekoe212 said:
@JasonR86 said:
@Animasta said:
tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.
I wonder
There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.
Well, guess what, I would like a realistic female protagonist who doesn't have to put up with sexual harassment or attempted rape in order to "develop her character." Most female protagonist are hypersexualized cartoony type characters. But the games that are more narrative-heavy and attempt to develop the female protagonist's character inevitably go thru all the "we must put her in situations where she feels vulnerable and where men try to do awful things to her because she's a woman". Why can't I just have my power fantasy???? Many women experience rape and harassment in their daily lives, the last thing they want is to go through that again in a video game -- which they are playing to have FUN. Playing as a female protagonist, I want to feel EMPOWERED as a woman and have the fantasy of living in a world without that shit.
Well, guess what, I would like a realistic male protagonist who doesn't have to be a roided up space marine curb stopping everyone to develop their characters... There are plenty of female characters that are strong and not overly sexualized, ala Elika from Prince of Persia, Jade from Beyond Good and Evil, Chell from Portal, Lightning from Final Fantasy etc... So many good ones. Yet no one blows there lid when we see the four millionth muscle bag of a protagonist taking bullets to the face. There is a double standard in this industry and it makes people feel good to come out and say hey that's sexist, and I'm against sexism. That makes me an intelligent person right? RIGHT? Because... video games.
I can think of plenty of non roided up space marines in shooters... Artyom from Metro 2033, Degtyarev from stalker: CoP, Strelok from stalker; SoC, hell, everyone in CoD, Fear dude, far cry 2 dude... these are just from shooters btw. There's a WIDE RANGE of body types for men in video games.
also, four does not equal plenty, and chell is hardly a character, so that's really only 3 (also if you say Samus I'll punch you, because when they decided to make her a character was Other M)
Not saying it's the biggest deal in the world, but to say that there's plenty of those female characters... untrue.
I know, I'm not saying there isn't. I'm pointing out the flaw in the poster's complaint. There exists a double standard in this industry and in western culture in general. There are plenty of non sexualized female characters and plenty of none roided up male characters, but no one blows their lid when there is a muscle bag running around, yet as soon as a girl is shown in any sort of danger, oh lord help the internet from breaking...
The games industry hasn't grown a up single bit since the days of Final Fight where the female character of Poison was turned into a transvestite in order to have players not punch a woman. Because punching a transvestite is apparently more reasonable. I mean as long as it has a penis right?
EDIT - Also:
That's just from looking off my games shelf. There are many more games that have strong non sexualised female characters.
@LiquidPrince:
your right that all media has to grow up in their treatment of people. Each problem is important to deal with. It's just that sexism is important to deal with currently to allow the other issues to be delt safely. By reducing sexism and issues of gender roles and gender divide people will feel comfortable and more encouraged to deal with the issues.
There's a difference between an exaggerated soldier trope in a game about shooting dudes and a fucking slut in a one piece PVC in a game about slicing dudes. And on top of that, there are plenty of non-roided up male characters in games, FAR more than slutty females. The difference is that soldiers belong in war. You won't see a lady CIA agent in a fucking leotard made of shiny black plastic. You probably will see a male CIA agent with a gruff voice and some grit in his eyes. On top of that, short of literally being a prostitute, most of the sluts in games are not exaggerations, but more pure fabrications. And also dumb. When you're playing a game like Call of Duty, it makes sense that most of the characters you get in touch with and play as are hard ass mother fuckers. But when you see some stupid lady who doesn't resemble a female beyond having (wildly silly) tits, it's pretty fuckin dumb. It's not even that it's insulting, exactly, just that it's DUMB. And women are way more interesting when they aren't dumb.
As for all of the Tomb Raider stuff, people are dumb. Nothing about that game being showed so far is sexist. Some of the remarks by the devs were a bit questionable, but hey, when you get rebar through your torso, you are going to make some fucking noise. People don't generally enjoy being in pain. When a soldier is shot in real life, they often make some noise, because it hurts like fuck and it's usually pretty damn scary. If you've ever watched a documentary with combat footage, you'll probably hear some guy moaning and whining because his ears were blown out and he's disoriented thanks to the IED that nearly took his life, despite just being a bit rattled. Also, she fucking MURDERS FOOLS. Hardly helpless. Hell, the most effective part of Half Life 2 at getting me to feel something was when Alyx was hurt. Garrus being hit was another good example. Characters should be hurt, and it's fine for the player to feel a bit of a gut wrench when that happens. If you see your buddy take shrapnel, it's going to hit you, one way or another. I fail to see how some young women being battered to the point of having enough and then (apparently, from the look of that gameplay at E3) going fucking berserk and killing a bunch of jerks is offensive. I think it's pretty bad ass and interesting to see a character that isn't constantly just barely escaping harm. One of my favorite things about Firefly/Serenity has always been watching Mal get the shit kicked out of him and then get his at the end. Maybe I just enjoy the idea of someone taking a bunch of punishment and coming out one hardened motherfucker, but it's far more interesting than Mr. Constant Success.
@Jimbo said:
@ColinWright said:@Jimbo said:It's pretty telling if the person making the argument about how women should or shouldn't be treated doesn't care enough to know how to refer to more than one of them.Also, the plural of 'woman' is 'women'. You know, for any future rants about gender "equality"...When you can't attack the argument, attack the grammar. Oh, Internet.
Or, ya know, typos might just exist. It's the internet, people shouldn't have to be stellar typists just to post on it and still have a point. You just come off as a twat when your biggest issue is one tiny little letter in the midst of a rant.
Everyone's sick of it, yet everyone keeps making topics. Nothing personal, to none of the topic starters, but its hardly the way to let it die down. Its a total non issue, it'll blow over as soon as we stop fanning the flames.i still think that it is an interesting, important conversation to be having, and one that should be hashed out. People who scream equality are still pinned down by their own (some would say built-in) assumptions on what it means with violence be directed at either sex, especially the feminine one.
@LiquidPrince said:
@Animasta said:
@LiquidPrince said:
@pekoe212 said:
@JasonR86 said:
@Animasta said:
tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.
I wonder
There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.
Well, guess what, I would like a realistic female protagonist who doesn't have to put up with sexual harassment or attempted rape in order to "develop her character." Most female protagonist are hypersexualized cartoony type characters. But the games that are more narrative-heavy and attempt to develop the female protagonist's character inevitably go thru all the "we must put her in situations where she feels vulnerable and where men try to do awful things to her because she's a woman". Why can't I just have my power fantasy???? Many women experience rape and harassment in their daily lives, the last thing they want is to go through that again in a video game -- which they are playing to have FUN. Playing as a female protagonist, I want to feel EMPOWERED as a woman and have the fantasy of living in a world without that shit.
Well, guess what, I would like a realistic male protagonist who doesn't have to be a roided up space marine curb stopping everyone to develop their characters... There are plenty of female characters that are strong and not overly sexualized, ala Elika from Prince of Persia, Jade from Beyond Good and Evil, Chell from Portal, Lightning from Final Fantasy etc... So many good ones. Yet no one blows there lid when we see the four millionth muscle bag of a protagonist taking bullets to the face. There is a double standard in this industry and it makes people feel good to come out and say hey that's sexist, and I'm against sexism. That makes me an intelligent person right? RIGHT? Because... video games.
I can think of plenty of non roided up space marines in shooters... Artyom from Metro 2033, Degtyarev from stalker: CoP, Strelok from stalker; SoC, hell, everyone in CoD, Fear dude, far cry 2 dude... these are just from shooters btw. There's a WIDE RANGE of body types for men in video games.
also, four does not equal plenty, and chell is hardly a character, so that's really only 3 (also if you say Samus I'll punch you, because when they decided to make her a character was Other M)
Not saying it's the biggest deal in the world, but to say that there's plenty of those female characters... untrue.
I know, I'm not saying there isn't. I'm pointing out the flaw in the poster's complaint. There exists a double standard in this industry and in western culture in general. There are plenty of non sexualized female characters and plenty of none roided up male characters, but no one blows their lid when there is a muscle bag running around, yet as soon as a girl is shown in any sort of danger, oh lord help the internet from breaking...
The games industry hasn't grown a up single bit since the days of Final Fight where the female character of Poison was turned into a transvestite in order to have players not punch a woman. Because punching a transvestite is apparently more reasonable. I mean as long as it has a penis right?
EDIT - Also:
- Elika
- Jade
- Lightning
- Catwoman (Sexualized but uses it as form of empowerment)
- Chun-Li
- Elena
- Liara
- Anya
That's just from looking off my games shelf. There are many more games that have strong non sexualised female characters.
You're equating sexism with sexualization, which is inaccurate. Sexism, in media form, is the promotion of female stereotypes. One such stereotype, is that women are meant to be sexy/sexual beings for a man to gawk at. There are other stereotypes and tropes such as a manic pixey dream girl (A woman in a story that exists purely to show a man how to embrace life and have fun) and women in refrigerators (Death of a powerful female character for the sole purpose of having a plot device in a male driven story) that don't treat female characters with proper respect. Also, just because a game or movie has one of these tropes, it isn't immediately sexist.
As I've stated in other threads, men design men with muscles for other men to feel powerful vicariously through that character. It's a male power fantasy, and has nothing to do with being sexualized for women. That said, the male power fantasy is still a stereotype and can be limiting to male representation.
You want men that aren't muscle bags? You have them. Let's look at the top 10 games of last year according to Giant Bomb.
- Rayman Origins --- So unmuscley, he doesn't even have limbs
- LA Noire --- A main character with a lot of personal issues that he has to work through, very average build.
- Gears of War 3 --- Muscle bound guys that you talked about, so consider this "1" (Although, every character is this way in the universe, even women, so it could just be taken as a style of the world)
- Batman: Arkham City --- A good example of a muscle bound male protagonist. "2"
- The Witcher 2 --- Certainly a fit character, but nothing about him screams muscles. Just seems like how someone in his situation would look.
- Dead Space 2 --- Another average character without huge muscles.
- Portal 2 --- The first main character on the list that is female, take note of this.
- Bastion --- A kid protagonist. He has a huge head, but I don't think huge muscles.
- Saints Row --- A variety of characters that include muscly and average looking folks. The main character can be just about whatever you want. I played as a female protagonist and loved it. Ironically, might be the best use of women on this list.
- Skyrim --- Similar to the Witcher. Character is strong to fit into the lore but isn't overly muscled.
So out of 10 games, what do we have? Eight male protagonists, 2 of which are unreasonably built. If you're a top 10 game from 2011 and you're a man, you could be a detective, a super hero, a cartoon, a brave kid, an adventurer, etc. If you're a female in the top 10 games of 2011, you're Chell or the SR protagonist. The best products in gaming today are still all about men, male stories, and male desires. This doesn't even dive into the ACTUAL representation of women in each game, it just shows how few times you're even given their perspective.
It should also be noted, pointing out sexist female tropes is not an implied statement that sexist male tropes don't exist. Both exist, both are harmful, but female representation is much more limited as evidenced by this top 10. The lack of variety of women in gaming is what's truly harmful.
@mystakin: That list raises an entirely separate issue which is that the games industry is mostly dominated by male protagonists. So it's unfair to compare the top games of last year, or any year for that matter because the ratio of female protagonists to male ones is off. My argument is that people are turning situations that aren't sexist into stupid sexist discussions. If you find Lara's moaning sexual you should sit down and take a good long hard look at yourself. I didn't even think of that until it started getting criticized. Or the rape fantasy that 47 is apparently having in killing the assassin's on his door step. People turn regular situations into sexist ones whenever a girl is involved, yet in the same situation wouldn't bat an eye lash if the scene was played out by a man.
Like I said: The games industry hasn't grown a up single bit since the days of Final Fight where the female character of Poison was turned into a transvestite in order to have players not punch a woman. Because punching a transvestite is apparently more reasonable. I mean as long as it has a penis right?
This thread is why we can't have nice things.
FROM THIS DAY FORTH ALL CHARACTERS SHOULD BE GREY ASEXUAL BLOBS, WITH NO EMOTIONS, NO OPINIONS, AND PERFECTLY CAPABLE IN ANY SITUATION.
@LiquidPrince: Poison wasn't made a tranny so you could punch her, poison was made a tranny to screw with people like you, and it never gets old.
Also the protect Lara comment was made in context of this being a young Lara with none of her experience, or talents from the previous games. They probably wanted you to feel the need to protect her in this first game, then have her evolve into the bad ass she is over the next 2 to 3 games. Enhancing the emotional connection through developing a character over time, this also comes from a lot of the Tomb Raider community being interested in Lara's pre-tombraiding years. Unfortunately most people including Jeff jumped on the knee jerk politically correct reaction bandwagon without properly thinking about context. Hey lets shit on other gaming sites for writing for page views, and making rumors/controversy then jump on the very same bandwagon. It doesn't matter if that bandwagon is about stupid rumors, or equality, ya still jumped on hypocrites.
Patrick should never put up that crappy article, due to its political nature. If you're going to write about such topics you either do good analysis or you shut up. Otherwise you're simply begging for a flame war. OH and for future reference a one sided opinion isn't a good analysis.
Also other duders have brought this up; Movies where women struggle, are actually raped, beat up, win Oscars and are praised by all. God forbid a game tries a similar formula after everyone says they want more movie-esque stories in games. Make up your god dam minds, and stop flip-flopping on a whim.
Furthermore after GB's pronounced disgust for this game, I want a written apology for every time GB endorses any kind of such behavior.
1.Jeff's endorsement of woman abusing rap.
2.Vinny's offhand comments, and the use of the word " Slut, Cunt, Bitch "
3. Any time the GB screw sarcastically reference " Sexual interaction with attractive women" .
4. Endorsing any game that sexualizes any women, in any form ever.
OH WAIT, I JUST-A BE REALIZING SUM-A-THING. All those comments/endorsements are made, in hope of context, and hoping people don't jump to conclusions.
That depends. People probably need start with asking the right questions. Instead of wondering why people should be feeling X when they see some girl dressed up cosplay to promote Lollipop Chainsaw, they should instead ask "Why can't the game stand on its own?" There is anything wrong with a game with silicious or weird premise but it is odd to see it brought to life in the real world purely for marketing purposes. And it is even more incredulous when you realize they aren't marketing it towards us directly but the old white guy who makes purchase schedules for Wal-mart.
@LiquidPrince said:
@mystakin: That list raises an entirely separate issue which is that the games industry is mostly dominated by male protagonists. So it's unfair to compare the top games of last year, or any year for that matter because the ratio of female protagonists to male ones is off. My argument is that people are turning situations that aren't sexist into stupid sexist discussions. If you find Lara's moaning sexual you should sit down and take a good long hard look at yourself. I didn't even think of that until it started getting criticized. Or the rape fantasy that 47 is apparently having in killing the assassin's on his door step. People turn regular situations into sexist ones whenever a girl is involved, yet in the same situation wouldn't bat an eye lash if the scene was played out by a man.
Like I said: The games industry hasn't grown a up single bit since the days of Final Fight where the female character of Poison was turned into a transvestite in order to have players not punch a woman. Because punching a transvestite is apparently more reasonable. I mean as long as it has a penis right?
Okay, I misunderstood your argument, then. For that I certainly apologize. I'm incredibly hopeful for the Tomb Raider reboot, but I will admit the "We want the gamer to feel like she needs to be protected" quote has me a bit nervous. The gamer should want Lara to fight back and be empowered, not for someone else to come along and save her. Only time will tell how Lara is portrayed in the final product, but that quote is certainly unnerving to me as someone who is excited for it.
As for the Hitman trailer, I definitely have problems with it. Not just because of the senseless violence (which is a separate gaming issue, one that also made me uncomfortable in the Splinter Cell Blacklist trailer which was all male/male violence) but because of the imagery. Why are the enemies all women/nuns? There's no context in the trailer that explains it. Personally, I think they wanted to raise a controversy and get people talking -- mission accomplished I suppose -- but that's not a justifiable reason to have such a brutal scene. We see Agent 47 with his shirt off and he's horribly scarred. He's obviously been through hell and back before these nuns came along. However, once the nuns go into sexy-fight mode, their bodies are pristine. No scars, no bumps, no bruises, pure sex appeal. Apparently they have no battle scars. Are they new to the sexy nun fight club or just so good they never get touched? They're apparently not good enough to damage Agent 47 at all. Why are they dressed so skimpy as well? How does that give them a combat advantage? It doesn't, it's just for male gamers to drool over, and the camera angles accentuate that (shots with their asses mid-frame, of their breasts and asses when they remove the nun outfits, even a pretty explicit upskirt angle). The trailer connects feelings of arousal with violence, which is where the rape fantasy comes into play. If people are saying the trailer is offensive because of the violence alone, they're touching on an issue without digging deep enough. The trailer is bad, but the violence is only part of the reason why. The sad thing is, the trailer is also a horrible misrepresentation of the game itself.
@LiquidPrince: I 100% agree with you. If anything, people should be praising the unique, believable female lead that the Tomb Raider guys have tried to put into their game. I wont bother you with re-posting a lot of the stuff I've said here on GB about the subject, but I have been actively saying it is ridiculous for us to criticize Tomb Raider.
@mystakin said:
@LiquidPrince said:
@mystakin: That list raises an entirely separate issue which is that the games industry is mostly dominated by male protagonists. So it's unfair to compare the top games of last year, or any year for that matter because the ratio of female protagonists to male ones is off. My argument is that people are turning situations that aren't sexist into stupid sexist discussions. If you find Lara's moaning sexual you should sit down and take a good long hard look at yourself. I didn't even think of that until it started getting criticized. Or the rape fantasy that 47 is apparently having in killing the assassin's on his door step. People turn regular situations into sexist ones whenever a girl is involved, yet in the same situation wouldn't bat an eye lash if the scene was played out by a man.
Like I said: The games industry hasn't grown a up single bit since the days of Final Fight where the female character of Poison was turned into a transvestite in order to have players not punch a woman. Because punching a transvestite is apparently more reasonable. I mean as long as it has a penis right?
Okay, I misunderstood your argument, then. For that I certainly apologize. I'm incredibly hopeful for the Tomb Raider reboot, but I will admit the "We want the gamer to feel like she needs to be protected" quote has me a bit nervous. The gamer should want Lara to fight back and be empowered, not for someone else to come along and save her. Only time will tell how Lara is portrayed in the final product, but that quote is certainly unnerving to me as someone who is excited for it.
As for the Hitman trailer, I definitely have problems with it. Not just because of the senseless violence (which is a separate gaming issue, one that also made me uncomfortable in the Splinter Cell Blacklist trailer which was all male/male violence) but because of the imagery. Why are the enemies all women/nuns? There's no context in the trailer that explains it. Personally, I think they wanted to raise a controversy and get people talking -- mission accomplished I suppose -- but that's not a justifiable reason to have such a brutal scene. We see Agent 47 with his shirt off and he's horribly scarred. He's obviously been through hell and back before these nuns came along. However, once the nuns go into sexy-fight mode, their bodies are pristine. No scars, no bumps, no bruises, pure sex appeal. Apparently they have no battle scars. Are they new to the sexy nun fight club or just so good they never get touched? They're apparently not good enough to damage Agent 47 at all. Why are they dressed so skimpy as well? How does that give them a combat advantage? It doesn't, it's just for male gamers to drool over, and the camera angles accentuate that (shots with their asses mid-frame, of their breasts and asses when they remove the nun outfits, even a pretty explicit upskirt angle). The trailer connects feelings of arousal with violence, which is where the rape fantasy comes into play. If people are saying the trailer is offensive because of the violence alone, they're touching on an issue without digging deep enough. The trailer is bad, but the violence is only part of the reason why. The sad thing is, the trailer is also a horrible misrepresentation of the game itself.
See the issue I have with the Hitman trailers criticism is that there is no context for it. It reminds of people complaining why Joel from The Last of Us was murdering innocent looters. I was the one at that point saying that you can't assume they're innocent based on a demo that has no context or back story. It was later mentioned that Joel had met those particular bandits before and they were out for the kill. That is similar to this situation; we have no context as to why 47 is killing stripper nuns. For all we know the whole game could be about a league of assassins who are all female and they use they're sexuality to infiltrate different places and murder the people they need to murder. Women are known for being the fairer sex, and if a girl is an assassin it makes logical sense for her to use her looks as an asset. It also makes sense that 47 would attack the gun toting stripper assassin's like anyone else trying to attack him. What I've said above is simply a theoretical example, but for people to complain about something without context in my opinion is foolish.
I think an important thing that is a chronic problem with E3 specifically is that they seem to constantly send weird messages. There is a lot of neat things about Tomb Raider and Hitman: Absolution but are shown some of the odd and more eccentric material. Others have said behind close doors these games are far more tame and traditional than these promotions are made out to be.
I guess marketing says go big and scandalous to get attention and maximize marketing money. They are purposely going out of their way to push buttons and watching NeoGAF explode and headlines go up on GB and Kotaku and are quite happy about it.
@LiquidPrince said:
@mystakin said:
@LiquidPrince said:
@mystakin: That list raises an entirely separate issue which is that the games industry is mostly dominated by male protagonists. So it's unfair to compare the top games of last year, or any year for that matter because the ratio of female protagonists to male ones is off. My argument is that people are turning situations that aren't sexist into stupid sexist discussions. If you find Lara's moaning sexual you should sit down and take a good long hard look at yourself. I didn't even think of that until it started getting criticized. Or the rape fantasy that 47 is apparently having in killing the assassin's on his door step. People turn regular situations into sexist ones whenever a girl is involved, yet in the same situation wouldn't bat an eye lash if the scene was played out by a man.
Like I said: The games industry hasn't grown a up single bit since the days of Final Fight where the female character of Poison was turned into a transvestite in order to have players not punch a woman. Because punching a transvestite is apparently more reasonable. I mean as long as it has a penis right?
Okay, I misunderstood your argument, then. For that I certainly apologize. I'm incredibly hopeful for the Tomb Raider reboot, but I will admit the "We want the gamer to feel like she needs to be protected" quote has me a bit nervous. The gamer should want Lara to fight back and be empowered, not for someone else to come along and save her. Only time will tell how Lara is portrayed in the final product, but that quote is certainly unnerving to me as someone who is excited for it.
As for the Hitman trailer, I definitely have problems with it. Not just because of the senseless violence (which is a separate gaming issue, one that also made me uncomfortable in the Splinter Cell Blacklist trailer which was all male/male violence) but because of the imagery. Why are the enemies all women/nuns? There's no context in the trailer that explains it. Personally, I think they wanted to raise a controversy and get people talking -- mission accomplished I suppose -- but that's not a justifiable reason to have such a brutal scene. We see Agent 47 with his shirt off and he's horribly scarred. He's obviously been through hell and back before these nuns came along. However, once the nuns go into sexy-fight mode, their bodies are pristine. No scars, no bumps, no bruises, pure sex appeal. Apparently they have no battle scars. Are they new to the sexy nun fight club or just so good they never get touched? They're apparently not good enough to damage Agent 47 at all. Why are they dressed so skimpy as well? How does that give them a combat advantage? It doesn't, it's just for male gamers to drool over, and the camera angles accentuate that (shots with their asses mid-frame, of their breasts and asses when they remove the nun outfits, even a pretty explicit upskirt angle). The trailer connects feelings of arousal with violence, which is where the rape fantasy comes into play. If people are saying the trailer is offensive because of the violence alone, they're touching on an issue without digging deep enough. The trailer is bad, but the violence is only part of the reason why. The sad thing is, the trailer is also a horrible misrepresentation of the game itself.
See the issue I have with the Hitman trailers criticism is that there is no context for it. It reminds of people complaining why Joel from The Last of Us was murdering innocent looters. I was the one at that point saying that you can't assume they're innocent based on a demo that has no context or back story. It was later mentioned that Joel had met those particular bandits before and they were out for the kill. That is similar to this situation; we have no context as to why 47 is killing stripper nuns. For all we know the whole game could be about a league of assassins who are all female and they use they're sexuality to infiltrate different places and murder the people they need to murder. Women are known for being the fairer sex, and if a girl is an assassin it makes logical sense for her to use her looks as an asset. It also makes sense that 47 would attack the gun toting stripper assassin's like anyone else trying to attack him. What I've said above is simply a theoretical example, but for people to complain about something without context in my opinion is foolish.
But that's the exact issue, there's no context. All we have to go off of is the trailer. No one sensible would call Hitman Absolution sexist, because the game isn't out, but the trailer very obviously is. It offers no context, which is the trailer's fault, for what's happening. It's just senseless violence, much like the Blacklist trailer. How does dressing as a whore make the assassinuns better fighters in this instance? If they were trying to lure Agent 47 into doing something, sure, but they aren't. They're just attacking him and being sexy doesn't benefit them in any way. Even if it did, that doesn't address why the women have no battle scars (while Agent 47, a hardened veteran, does) and why the trailer is shot in such a pornographic style (the women's bodies are the focus of the camera when they're on screen).
@Dylabaloo said:
I agree, everybody that's complaining about the new Lara Croft needs to grow up.
I agree! Hearing the Bombcast was cringe worthy, by saying Lara Croft moaning from being stabbed by a tree branch reminding them of a porno was really sexist. Male characters have been doing that for years and no one brings up gay porn sound effects. I think the voice actor for the new Lara Croft is really top notch.
@mscupcakes said:
Just in relation to Tomb Raider; as a female gamer, I really liked what they showed at E3. She doesn't have perfect make up, flawless hair or oversized breasts. It leaves me hopeful that we'll see more and more female protagonists being treated the same way as their male counterparts. I know some people bring up her moaning as sounding too sexual, but women don't sound like men, you can't compare the noise she makes to the grunts and groans of Nathan Drake. Of course we want equality but that doesn't mean that she should sound less feminine. I'd probably moan or scream if I fell down a waterfall and crashed into a shitload of trees too.
hell im a guy and id moan and scream if i was falling down a damn waterfall into trees, the world has gotten way to PC in the last few years. Everyones afraid to say or do anything that will upset someone. I think the game looks pretty good, i didnt notice anything that made me feel disgusted or upset with anything in there and despite some rather stupid and misguided comments made by one of the PR guys, there is no reason to jump on the hate wagon that has been created. Lets wait and see what the game is actually like before we decide to tie the developers to a stake and burn them.
@Bourbon_Warrior said:
@Dylabaloo said:
I agree, everybody that's complaining about the new Lara Croft needs to grow up.
I agree! Hearing the Bombcast was cringe worthy, by saying Lara Croft moaning from being stabbed by a tree branch reminding them of a porno was really sexist. Male characters have been doing that for years and no one brings up gay porn sound effects. I think the voice actor for the new Lara Croft is really top notch.
Haven't listened to the latest bombcast, damn that sounds pretty dumb, and I usually agree with them.
@Dylabaloo said:
@Bourbon_Warrior said:
@Dylabaloo said:
I agree, everybody that's complaining about the new Lara Croft needs to grow up.
I agree! Hearing the Bombcast was cringe worthy, by saying Lara Croft moaning from being stabbed by a tree branch reminding them of a porno was really sexist. Male characters have been doing that for years and no one brings up gay porn sound effects. I think the voice actor for the new Lara Croft is really top notch.
Haven't listened to the latest bombcast, damn that sounds pretty dumb, and I usually agree with them.
this... I dno what all the commotion is about.
@mystakin said:
The trailer connects feelings of arousal with violence, which is where the rape fantasy comes into play.
Honestly, you had me up to this point, and then I ended up rolling my eyes. This isn't rape fantasy, as much as some people would like to equate this to it in order to serve their agenda. The problem is that you end up desensitizing people with this jargon when it doesn't fit, and makes it harder for us to take notice when there are actual occurrences of it. It's like the boy who cried wolf.
@gamefreak9 said:
@Dylabaloo said:
@Bourbon_Warrior said:
@Dylabaloo said:
I agree, everybody that's complaining about the new Lara Croft needs to grow up.
I agree! Hearing the Bombcast was cringe worthy, by saying Lara Croft moaning from being stabbed by a tree branch reminding them of a porno was really sexist. Male characters have been doing that for years and no one brings up gay porn sound effects. I think the voice actor for the new Lara Croft is really top notch.
Haven't listened to the latest bombcast, damn that sounds pretty dumb, and I usually agree with them.
this... I dno what all the commotion is about.
Double standards.
@Sergio said:
@mystakin said:
The trailer connects feelings of arousal with violence, which is where the rape fantasy comes into play.
Honestly, you had me up to this point, and then I ended up rolling my eyes. This isn't rape fantasy, as much as some people would like to equate this to it in order to serve their agenda. The problem is that you end up desensitizing people with this jargon when it doesn't fit, and makes it harder for us to take notice when there are actual occurrences of it. It's like the boy who cried wolf.
Rape is forced sex through the use of violence, and the trailer links sex with violence in the audience's mind. I don't believe anyone is accusing Agent 47 of raping the assassinuns, they're saying that the trailer is promoting an atmosphere that normalizes sex and violence together, much like most pornography. In a world where sex and violence are intrinsically linked, rape doesn't appear as disgraceful as it really is because a sexual act is inherently violent. Ironically, the desensitization you worry the claims of the rape fantasy are causing is the very same thing those people are trying to fight against.
To comment solely on the "want to protect her" issue; I think he means in the sense that the character is in a bad situation and you as the player are given her perspective. Thus, you taking an active role as this character obviously will want to get her out of it. Not only that, but this is irrespective of gender. In Dead Space, you want to get Isaac Clarke out of a bad situation, because you are Isaac Clarke. You aren't stepping in for Lara to take care of her as her masculine protector, you are Lara, and she handles herself.
I also feel like we need to wait until the game is released to see how all this pans out. It's hard to get a feel for the whole situation based on what we have. We should also take account of the fact that a lot of fuckups happened in a quite short space of time, which have sort of swirled up into a vortex of misogyny. It's hard to see each fuckup on it's own merits, rather than as a piece in a much larger tableau of wank.
Tomb Raider might come out and be a shameful indictment of male gaming culture or be an empowering take on the Lara Croft character. We need to wait and see on this stuff.
@mystakin said:
@Sergio said:
@mystakin said:
The trailer connects feelings of arousal with violence, which is where the rape fantasy comes into play.
Honestly, you had me up to this point, and then I ended up rolling my eyes. This isn't rape fantasy, as much as some people would like to equate this to it in order to serve their agenda. The problem is that you end up desensitizing people with this jargon when it doesn't fit, and makes it harder for us to take notice when there are actual occurrences of it. It's like the boy who cried wolf.
Rape is forced sex through the use of violence, and the trailer links sex with violence in the audience's mind. I don't believe anyone is accusing Agent 47 of raping the assassinuns, they're saying that the trailer is promoting an atmosphere that normalizes sex and violence together, much like most pornography. In a world where sex and violence are intrinsically linked, rape doesn't appear as disgraceful as it really is because a sexual act is inherently violent. Ironically, the desensitization you worry the claims of the rape fantasy are causing is the very same thing those people are trying to fight against.
I didn't link sex with violence in this trailer, and I doubt the people who made the trailer were linking sex with violence. No doubt they were making the female assassins sexy. There's nothing inherently wrong with having attractive, female assassins, but I will agree with you that dressing them up as they did served no real purpose in the context of the trailer. No doubt they were making the confrontation between Agent 47 and them violent, but this wasn't anything extraordinarily violent when compared to other games and movies. It seems the ones making the link of sex with violence when discussing this trailer are those who are making a stink about the tailer linking sex with violence.
Yes, I got the irony of it, which makes it more important for people to actually label things accurately. Just bringing up the terms "rape fantasy" and others when discussing this trailer tends to derail any valid discussions one might have, because the trailer has nothing to do with them. You might as well bring up "equal pay, for equal work." Yes, that's a valid issue in our society for feminists, but it contributes nothing to the discussion of the trailer itself.
whats wrong with sex and violence?
@Sergio said:
@mystakin said:
@Sergio said:
@mystakin said:
The trailer connects feelings of arousal with violence, which is where the rape fantasy comes into play.
Honestly, you had me up to this point, and then I ended up rolling my eyes. This isn't rape fantasy, as much as some people would like to equate this to it in order to serve their agenda. The problem is that you end up desensitizing people with this jargon when it doesn't fit, and makes it harder for us to take notice when there are actual occurrences of it. It's like the boy who cried wolf.
Rape is forced sex through the use of violence, and the trailer links sex with violence in the audience's mind. I don't believe anyone is accusing Agent 47 of raping the assassinuns, they're saying that the trailer is promoting an atmosphere that normalizes sex and violence together, much like most pornography. In a world where sex and violence are intrinsically linked, rape doesn't appear as disgraceful as it really is because a sexual act is inherently violent. Ironically, the desensitization you worry the claims of the rape fantasy are causing is the very same thing those people are trying to fight against.
I didn't link sex with violence in this trailer, and I doubt the people who made the trailer were linking sex with violence. No doubt they were making the female assassins sexy. There's nothing inherently wrong with having attractive, female assassins, but I will agree with you that dressing them up as they did served no real purpose in the context of the trailer. No doubt they were making the confrontation between Agent 47 and them violent, but this wasn't anything extraordinarily violent when compared to other games and movies. It seems the ones making the link of sex with violence when discussing this trailer are those who are making a stink about the tailer linking sex with violence.
Yes, I got the irony of it, which makes it more important for people to actually label things accurately. Just bringing up the terms "rape fantasy" and others when discussing this trailer tends to derail any valid discussions one might have, because the trailer has nothing to do with them. You might as well bring up "equal pay, for equal work." Yes, that's a valid issue in our society for feminists, but it contributes nothing to the discussion of the trailer itself.
It doesn't matter what they intended, it matters what the content of the product is. The content of the product places women in sexy, revealing outfits and glorifies violence. No one sits in front of a piece of media and says "Wow, sex and violence... I'm going to associate those now." It's a subconscious thing and there's been plenty of studies linking this kind of imagery to beliefs in lesser punishment for rapes. I described why I believe people would call the trailer a rape fantasy, but it's only a guess. You certainly don't have to agree that it is what they say it is, but I do believe that the trailer is harmful for the reasons I stated in my earlier post. I wouldn't have even brought it up as a rape fantasy if someone else had not asked about it.
On an unrelated and off topic note, it pisses me off that, that women on Kickstarter talking about misogyny in video games has made almost $200,000, while an actual worthy Kickstarter is barely getting any attention at all.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1681576010/the-brian-banks-story
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