#151 Posted by TheDudeOfGaming (6078 posts) -

PC or PS4. It's your choice duders. Vote with your money.

#152 Posted by TheDudeOfGaming (6078 posts) -

Fuck, I need to get my popcorn. The NeoGAF thread will be amazing.

#153 Posted by Grilledcheez (3947 posts) -

@grilledcheez said:

Maybe you guys can just wait until they officially announce things?

The fact is they haven't, so all we have to discuss—which people will naturally do because a new console is a big deal—are rumors.

Discussing is one thing, getting butthurt and saying "I'M NOT BUYING TEH CONSOLE" when you know nothing about it seems premature, no?

#154 Edited by CrossTheAtlantic (1145 posts) -

@jgf said:

@levelichi said:

However, I would like to mention that I can dig out my NES, Saturn, PSX, PS2 etc and play any of them whenever I want. If a system comes out with an always online requirement, than one day down the road you won't be able to come back. Preservation of gaming history is already overlooked sadly, this future would only make it much worse.

Thats exactly why I am against it too. They should at the very least provide an option to take the game offline after an initial activation. So I can keep my games and play them when nostalgia hits me 20 years down the road.

Yeah, I hadn't even thought of this, but when I did I instantly switched to the admently against camp. I'm sure you can point at Steam and show how it's been available all these years, but I don't really trust Microsoft to keep those authenticating servers running especially when it'll come time for them to make people move to a new machine.

#155 Edited by TheDudeOfGaming (6078 posts) -

@grilledcheez said:

@fluxwavez said:

@grilledcheez said:

Maybe you guys can just wait until they officially announce things?

The fact is they haven't, so all we have to discuss—which people will naturally do because a new console is a big deal—are rumors.

Discussing is one thing, getting butthurt and saying "I'M NOT BUYING TEH CONSOLE" when you know nothing about it seems premature, no?

The "I'M NOT BUYING TEH CONSOLE" response for the, as of yet, unconfirmed rumor is made with the assumption that always on will be required with the next Xbox console. In other words it only counts if it turns out to be true.

And frankly, if you had plans to buy the new Xbox and you're not "butthurt" at this point...I just can't imagine why anyone would be alright with an entire system requiring an always on internet connection, but maybe that's just me. Also I think I see a bit of Adam Orth in you.

#156 Edited by oraknabo (1470 posts) -

@tackchevy: That's a pretty basic self-adjusting market theory, but here's the problem: Imagine two game publishers who each put out a game on Nov 15. Both put out specials for people who reserve a copy as early as possible to gauge interest in the titles before release. Publisher 1 only manages 70,000 reserved copies. Publisher 2 gets 3.5 million. These are the best indication of sales for the day each game will release. With or without the used game market. how much is each game going to cost? Is there any scenario where Publisher 2 lowers their price because they know they will sell more copies than expected?

@phileskyline: And there are many more. I even know a guy who plays a ton of games but is not allowed for legal reasons to use anything connected to the internet. How's he going to get with the times?

#157 Posted by Grilledcheez (3947 posts) -

@thedudeofgaming: I apologize if I offended you, I am just frustrated with those that base major buying decisions off of unconfirmed rumors. I'm glad we don't make foreign policy decisions based upon them or we would be in multiple wars right now!

#158 Posted by Cameron (600 posts) -

I'm going to hold off making any decisions about the next Xbox until it is actually announced. Getting pissed off about an off-hand comment made on Twitter by some Microsoft employee seems crazy. Sure, it was a dumb comment to make, but ultimately it doesn't mean anything for the console.

#159 Posted by planetfunksquad (441 posts) -

@grilledcheez: But thats just it, nobody is basing buying decisions on unconfirmed rumours, they're merely discussing a hypothetical scenario, based on some things they've heard. If it turns out Microsoft doesn't do this no-ones gonna say "no fuck them, because demonstrably-false-rumours-from-months-ago." The fact that this is all speculative shouldn't need to be stated to anyone.

#160 Edited by PenguinDust (12523 posts) -

@slag said:

the PS4 is looking better everyday.

Yep. I'm already on the fence about the next Xbox. If it has to be always online, I'll go buy something else. I don't need that added headache. I have crappy internet, and I can't just up and move to someplace with better broadband because I am a grown-up; I have a job and responsibilities. I get that the guy was trolling but he still sounded like an ass. Way to alienate your customers. Besides I just bought a pretty good PC so screw'em.

From the list over on Neogaf, I was amazed to see how many legit news outlets picked up the story.

#161 Posted by mylifeforAiur (3484 posts) -

Microsoft still hasn't replied to this hubbub?

#162 Posted by PhilESkyline (778 posts) -

@oraknabo: I wonder what happens when they perform maintenance on the servers. Forget no online play, now the entire system will be down.

#163 Edited by SpaceInsomniac (3749 posts) -

@warlockengineermoredakka said:

The range of targets in the fallout seems to be expanding a bit.

Arthur Gies started chiming in a while ago. Suffice to say, his statements have made him a definite secondary target of the controversy- he too is now being bombarded.

One of his recent tweets: "The biggest game of 2004 is still online, and has always been always-online."

https://twitter.com/aegies

Reading through a bunch of Arthur's tweets- it seems like a lot of people are targeting him hastily. Cause he's openly said he's not defending Microsoft here. He's just saying that the detractors of always-on haven't made a cohesive/readible argument yet. (At least not from his view)

No, fuck that guy. He seems every bit as much of a belligerent prick as the guy who started this mess in the first place. There are PLENTY of places to go for gaming news. After reading this, Polygon has made my gaming website shit list.

As for the actual argument that he seems to want to ignore, here's a good write up from the NeoGAF thread:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=52802655#post52802655

Microsoft: Our next xbox is amazing..always online...always connected, you can download updates in the back ground and it is ready to go when you turn it on

Customer: Ok, can I play it offline?

Microsoft: No! Why would you want that?

Customer 1: My back room in my house where I have my xbox, the wifi is spotty

Microsoft: well sorry we don't want you as a customer

Customer 2: My internet drops multiple times,

Microsoft: We don't want you as a customer

Customer 3: I actually have great internet, but I have a second xbox at my parents house I play when I visit, they go to bed early, and they don't have internet.

Microsoft: we don't want you as a customer

Customer 4: This seems to be a form of DRM and I am uncomfortable supporting it

Microsoft: WE DEFINITELY don't want you as a customer

Customer 4's friend: Wait, I don't have a problem with DRM, but I have 3 kids in my home, each with their own xbox. I recently bought a Lego game and they each took turns playing it

Microsoft: we don't want you as a customer unless you want to buy that game 3 times.

Customer 5: I buy used games from time to time, but I also buy new games.

Microsoft: we don't want you as a customer, unless you only buy new

Customer 5: But some new games I buy with used money...and others I buy new after playing them used..like Gears 1 I bought used, but I bought Gears 2 and 3 new

Microsoft: We don't want that. We don't want you as a customer

Customer 6: I am in the military and play my xbox, but can't connect

Microsoft: we don't want you as a customer.

Customer 7: SO the only reason always online is a form of DRM...

Microsoft: no comment.

#164 Edited by kpaadet (410 posts) -

@spaceinsomniac: Polygon was a joke before it even began, and its no surprise they are one of the few gaming sites that haven't picked up this story.

Edit: I guess they eventually picked it up.

#165 Edited by TheManWithNoPlan (5525 posts) -

Apparently the Internet and Electricity are the same thing. Who knew.

I don't mind my console taking advantage of the internet, but making it mandatory to function is just crazy. I don't know how Microsoft thinks they'll be doing themselves or anyone for that matter a favor by doing this. I'm definitely going to be interested to see how they'll justify to consumers them doing this. It's just rumors, but if it's actually in the final product, I can't in good conscience see myself getting a Nextbox anytime soon. We'll probobly find out later this month, so we'll see.

#166 Posted by Slag (4418 posts) -

@slag said:

the PS4 is looking better everyday.

Yep. I'm already on the fence about the next Xbox. If it has to be always online, I'll go buy something else. I don't need that added headache. I have crappy internet, and I can't just up and move to someplace with better broadband because I am a grown-up; I have a job and responsibilities. I get that the guy was trolling but he still sounded like an ass. Way to alienate your customers. Besides I just bought a pretty good PC so screw'em.

From the list over on Neogaf, I was amazed to see how many legit news outlets picked up the story.

yeah people are almost rabid for scoops at this point in the console cycle. Makes total sense to me this spread like wildfire to news sites. They'll print virtually any rumor, valid or not, at this point in the cycle.

What I can't believe is that Adam Orth works this high in the gaming industry and seems completely clueless unaware of this. This happens every console cycle all the way back to the NES era. It'd be one think if he immediately backpedaled, but I suspect he didn't have a clue he messed up bigtime till his superiors likely told him to shut up.

even if it was an innocuous detail instead of something incendiary like always oneline he shouldn't be talking about anything about the next console, launches are awfully carefully orchestrated events, the Microsoft marketing team must want to kill this guy.

I agree with you he was probably just trolling, but I suspect there is some truth to the troll. It really seems like the Xbox division at Microsoft is badly overconfident in general. That is what all the back channel chatters suggests and there public announcements do nothing to suggest it isn't true. They seem to be taking their US market share for granted, that is a potentially lethal mistake.

It's weird to see history potentially repeat itself.

#167 Edited by Aurelito (721 posts) -

Not only my internet connection goes down often, it's capped, and slow.

Fuck them, I don't play with consoles anymore anyways. It's children's toy.

#168 Posted by ninnanuam (281 posts) -

Hmm if the aways online thing is true I guess im out, I have bandwidth caps and short but frequent drops in service.

Im gonna miss those xbox controllers, cant stand the dual shock.

Possibly PC will be the way to go.

In regard to PC I haven't had a decent one in years but if this happens i might build one, and alot of people are pointing to PC as a viable alternative in this scenario but I thought PC's were worse for this kinda crap, it was one of the reasons consoles were "better" back in the day, and I thought Steam, which everyone always gushes over had always online DRM?

#169 Edited by OfficeGamer (1087 posts) -

and I thought Steam, which everyone always gushes over had always online DRM?

You can go offline in Steam and play your games like that.

I've been on the X360 since launch and I recently switched permanently to PC, and let's just say I lament the years I spent not being on a PC. All your gaming dreams come to life on this damn thing, it blows my mind. This was a very good decision for me.

#170 Posted by Slag (4418 posts) -

Microsoft still hasn't replied to this hubbub?

they have actually

Microsoft official response from Game Informer

" [Update] We received an official statement from Microsoft, via the company's PR firm Edelman, concerning the tweets sent by Microsoft Studios' creative director Adam Orth last evening.

The statement reads as follows:

'We are aware of the comments made by an employee on Twitter. This person is not a spokesperson for Microsoft, and his personal views are not reflective of those of the company. We have not made any announcements about our product roadmap, and have no further comment on this matter.' "

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/04/05/report-more-sources-say-next-xbox-will-require-always-on-internet-connection.aspx

Notably they did not mention at all anything about always-online. Take from that what you will

#171 Edited by Nekroskop (2786 posts) -

People who agree with this schmuck(MS-employee) should be shot.

#172 Posted by Giganteus (185 posts) -

I mainly invest my money and time on PC games, but can afford a console this upcoming next generation. If my console choices are between an always online required one and another that doesn't have such a restriction, I know which one I'm getting. I'm sure for plenty of people an always online requirement will be fine for them and they won't have any problems, but there's going to be a good margin of people (me included) who will. Plus, the thought of not really owning a console I payed hundreds of dollars for due to having access restricted from me because of my connection really bothers me.

I hope Microsoft isn't planning on such a thing, but I've gotten the strong sense they indeed are. If so, hopefully it's something they change after launch.

People who agree with this schmuck should be shot.

Oh, hello internet.

#173 Posted by cmblasko (1242 posts) -

Can't believe someone that far up in such a prominent company made that horrible electricity-internet comparison.

#174 Posted by BigBoss1911 (2472 posts) -

Please fire this asshole

#175 Edited by Pachtar_Klepek (89 posts) -

@warlockengineermoredakka said:

The range of targets in the fallout seems to be expanding a bit.

Arthur Gies started chiming in a while ago. Suffice to say, his statements have made him a definite secondary target of the controversy- he too is now being bombarded.

One of his recent tweets: "The biggest game of 2004 is still online, and has always been always-online."

https://twitter.com/aegies

Reading through a bunch of Arthur's tweets- it seems like a lot of people are targeting him hastily. Cause he's openly said he's not defending Microsoft here. He's just saying that the detractors of always-on haven't made a cohesive/readible argument yet. (At least not from his view)

No, fuck that guy. He seems every bit as much of a belligerent prick as the guy who started this mess in the first place. There are PLENTY of places to go for gaming news. After reading this, Polygon has made my gaming website shit list.

As for the actual argument that he seems to want to ignore, here's a good write up from the NeoGAF thread:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=52802655#post52802655

Microsoft: Our next xbox is amazing..always online...always connected, you can download updates in the back ground and it is ready to go when you turn it on

Customer: Ok, can I play it offline?

Microsoft: No! Why would you want that?

Customer 1: My back room in my house where I have my xbox, the wifi is spotty

Microsoft: well sorry we don't want you as a customer

Customer 2: My internet drops multiple times,

Microsoft: We don't want you as a customer

Customer 3: I actually have great internet, but I have a second xbox at my parents house I play when I visit, they go to bed early, and they don't have internet.

Microsoft: we don't want you as a customer

Customer 4: This seems to be a form of DRM and I am uncomfortable supporting it

Microsoft: WE DEFINITELY don't want you as a customer

Customer 4's friend: Wait, I don't have a problem with DRM, but I have 3 kids in my home, each with their own xbox. I recently bought a Lego game and they each took turns playing it

Microsoft: we don't want you as a customer unless you want to buy that game 3 times.

Customer 5: I buy used games from time to time, but I also buy new games.

Microsoft: we don't want you as a customer, unless you only buy new

Customer 5: But some new games I buy with used money...and others I buy new after playing them used..like Gears 1 I bought used, but I bought Gears 2 and 3 new

Microsoft: We don't want that. We don't want you as a customer

Customer 6: I am in the military and play my xbox, but can't connect

Microsoft: we don't want you as a customer.

Customer 7: SO the only reason always online is a form of DRM...

Microsoft: no comment.

God I hate that guy

#176 Posted by troll93 (388 posts) -

I continue to not really care about always on requirements. I pay for good internet, Im ok with it. However, I can understand the frustrating part if you can't get good internet.

#177 Edited by Blu3V3nom07 (4212 posts) -

I love Arthur Gies. God, I wanna just end this not-knowing thing. Just, some news. Anything!

If there is this AO, price the console $100. Done.

#178 Edited by Hailinel (24863 posts) -
Online
#179 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (3749 posts) -

@troll93 said:

I continue to not really care about always on requirements. I pay for good internet, Im ok with it. However, I can understand the frustrating part if you can't get good internet.

Okay, but do you also not care about any of the following?

Not being able to sell or buy used games.

Not being able to loan games to friends or borrow games from friends.

Not being able to rent games.

Not being able to play ANY game if the MS server is down for ANY reason.

Not being able to play any game you own ever again as soon as MS decides to turn off their network.

And the possibility of a "SimCity" level of persistent network errors whenever a major title is released and MS can't keep up with server demand.

This all goes a lot deeper than if you have decent access to the internet or not, although that is a fairly large part of it.

#180 Posted by DarthOrange (3864 posts) -

Kaz Hirai is finally getting to enjoy a shit storm that doesn't involve Sony.

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18dwfzqzmxri2gif/original.gif

#181 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (3749 posts) -

@hailinel said:

It seems that Orth may have indeed been fired for his Twitter comments, which really isn't that surprising if true:

http://4playernetwork.com/blog/2013/04/adam-orth-article/

Seems about right. Lets look at the facts.

His original tweet containing "#dealwithit" was not a reply to any particular person, it specifically referred to a CONSOLE rather than "always online" in general terms, and said "every device now is 'always on'. That's the world we live in."

There are a large number of ways that a massive corporation can break unpleasant news to their customers. "#dealwithit" is not among them. If it's not true, then that is arguably even worse.

#182 Edited by EnduranceFun (1114 posts) -

I am not buying the new Xbox if it is always online, it's just a hassle. This would partially be because it's a huge red flag that Microsoft is continuing on with their belligerent policies on pay walls and DRM. No confirmation yet but there's no smoke without fire.

Arthur Gies is John Walker tier.

#183 Posted by Sweep (8866 posts) -
Moderator
#184 Posted by Branthog (5562 posts) -

I'm the consumer. I don't need to "defend" my desire not to be "always online" or "always DRMed in the ass" or anything else. YOU need to JUSTIFY why I SHOULD BUY YOUR SHIT and do so without the bullshit that anyone with a little common sense and experience can see through.

#185 Posted by jimmyfenix (3855 posts) -

long live kaz

#186 Posted by Neurotic (632 posts) -

Probably already been done but this dude needs to unplug...

I'm not one for this 'console wars' nonsense but Microsoft don't seem to be doing themselves many favours. Having it always be online as a requirement seems needlessly hard-line. Of course, it might not even end up being that way but we'll see.

#187 Posted by Ravenlight (8040 posts) -

I'm still not planning on buying a next-gen console. Confirmation bias rocks!

People who agree with this schmuck(MS-employee) should be shot.

People who only see the world in absolutes should reexamine their worldview.

#188 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

PC or PS4. It's your choice duders. Vote with your money.

You do realize that you're speaking to a minority, right? That a lot of us were the same people who said the Wii would never sell?

#189 Edited by JasonR86 (9710 posts) -

@spaceinsomniac:

If Gies can't figure out on his own the good and bad things that could potentially make an always-online console bad then I've given him too much credit through his career.

#190 Edited by EXTomar (4744 posts) -

Insisting this isn't a problem for some is just like Sony disregarding the $600 price for the PS3. Some people can and do have super stable 24/7 high speed internet access just like some people can throw down $600 without worrying about it. It is not far fetched or unreasonable but it also isn't universal.

So whatever...Geies can believe whatever he wants and that is fine. There are legitimate concerns that the thing won't be designed correctly given how borked Win8 and Surface have been. Or is these inconvenient facts grounds for immediate disqualification?

#191 Posted by GrantHeaslip (1607 posts) -

This guy was being a dick about it (if you feel the need to add "deal with it", letalone fucking "#dealwithit", to something you say, you almost definitely shouldn't say it) and I don't think Microsoft should do this, but I think I get where he's coming from. There's this kind of insufferable knee-jerk anti-DRM contingent that describe every application of DRM in apocalyptic, good-vs-evil terms. I think there's a reasonable conversation to be had about how far DRM should go, but it's not going to be instigated by people who come dangerously close to late night AM radio levels of rabid, unrealistic paranoia. To put it another way, one can disagree with this always-on DRM without threatening to do everything in their power to ruin Microsoft if they follow through with it.

#192 Edited by probablytuna (3671 posts) -

Looking at his LinkedIn profile, he's worked for Sony before. You think this is some kind of undercover shit and that he's intentionally sabotaging Microsoft's announcement?

#193 Edited by JasonR86 (9710 posts) -

Looking at his LinkedIn profile, he's worked for Sony before. You think this is some kind of undercover shit and that he's intentionally sabotaging Microsoft's announcement?

Would he be tinker, tailor, soldier, or spy?

#194 Posted by Slag (4418 posts) -

@hailinel: not defending the idiot, but that does seem like an over reaction by MSFT since he didn't explicitly break his NDA.

I would think a reprimand, ban from social media and possible suspension would be more appropriate.

I'm not surprised they did though, console launches may be the riskiest venture a company takes, anything that hurts their launch can cost them untold millions.

@video_game_king: this completely different than the Wii. I agree with @thedudeofgaming's sentiment. As this always online move possibly alienates casuals more than hardcore. Where the Wii was just about tailoring the console to casual market.

For people who aren't hardcore, this used game ban makes this hobby considerably more expensive on a borderline expense and a harder pitch to the spouse or parents (depending on age obviously).

Somebody like me is more likely to still buy the Nextbox even if I didn't like it, than the people out there who might only buy a dozen games over a console's lifetime i would think.

#195 Edited by troll93 (388 posts) -

@spaceinsomniac: Well, yeah, don't really care about those things. I earn enough money that I don't rent or buy used games, I don't really lend games to my friends, most that live near me don't really play games. I also own a good computer and will probably be getting the PS4 as well. so if I can't play a game i.e servers are down/sim city, I can play a game there or do something else with my time, I have other hobbies that I can spend time on. As far as the playing games after servers have been turned off, I don't really care about that either. I don't go back to generation old games really and if I do, I'm sure microsoft, like nintendo, will be happy to let me buy it on the new console for $10, which I don't mind paying for the convenience of not having to dig out an old console, or just emulate on the computer as that is going to happen at some stage, regardless of what windows does.

I can understand why this would be a shitty thing for some people, but for me, it's a non issue. If this is a deal breaker for anyone, I fully support you in whatever step you take between just not buying it to aggressive lobbying of microsoft. If it is an issue that is enough of an issue to really hurt sales, then the next console will not have it. I can't tell the future so I don't know.

#196 Edited by EXTomar (4744 posts) -

Again it has to be pointed out that "always online" isn't automatically a bad feature. It is whether or not they design a box that is actually sensible. Let alone the sneaky suspicion that they'll pull the same stupid crap with XBox Live Gold. What good is a box that is "always online" when you are so crippled when playing a game online???

#197 Posted by AiurFlux (902 posts) -

“We apologize for the inappropriate comments made by an employee on Twitter yesterday”, the statement read. “This person is not a spokesperson for Microsoft, and his personal views do not reflect the customer centric approach we take to our products or how we would communicate directly with our loyal consumers. We are very sorry if this offended anyone, however we have not made any announcements about our product roadmap, and have no further comment on this matter.”

Microsoft, go fuck yourselves. First off somebody that is a Creative Director of Microsoft Studios does speak for your company. Second off your approach is not customer centric otherwise people wouldn't have to drop 60 dollars a year to play online when everything else does it completely free, and your console on release wouldn't have a 100% defective rate with failure rates anywhere from 20 to 40% depending on the source. Thirdly way to not debunk the claims that are most certainly going to end up being true. Finally, fuck off with the no comment shit. Make a comment otherwise shut up. Saying no comment pretty much admits guilt. I'm not even going to comment on their "communication" which involves rumors because they never outright confirm or deny anything and talking to somebody in Bombay that barely speaks English.

Urgh.

#198 Posted by probablytuna (3671 posts) -
#199 Posted by golguin (3932 posts) -

Strangely enough MS should be thanking the dude. They now know what happens if they go public with their always online plan. If that was their intention it sure as hell isn't anymore.

If it still is then goodbye XBOX and hello Playstation. I love my 360 now and I don't own a PS3 so this turn of events is pretty crazy.

#200 Posted by Hzaife (160 posts) -

Arthur Gies has to be the biggest shill in fucking gaming industry history, from his defending of SimCity to now "acting" neutral with this always on-line is just a façade.

One of these publishers need to just give him a bloody PR job already