@MuttersomeTaxicab: Depends on what you define as art.
I think you are trying to say a game without illustration or visual aesthetic- which it kind of does have on a basic level.
Art goes beyond that though, so it makes sense, and there is more to it for their filter, part of which involves how the game is coded. A lot of how a game is designed is considered as well.
From what I have been reading on this they are recognizing video games for their art on several levels beyond the aesthetics.
I don't see how Canabalt fits in that list. It sticks out like a sore thumb.
Canabalt is a pretty interesting game for what it is. It has a pretty unique visual aesthetic, the music is great, the gameplay is simple but compelling. It's NO Pac-Man or whatever but it's definitely worth looking at.
Canabalt stands out as a weak link there. But I guess they had to reflect the iOS stuff somehow and that game is pretty much the basis for everything else on iOS.
I don't really get why it matters? I guess if someone wants to pump their fist at Ebert and say you were wrong, but what's the point in that. If a person enjoys a particular type of media why does it matter if another person doesn't like it, cause really that's the only reason why a person would say that it's not art. I suppose it's human nature to want to know that it's cool to like the thing they like.
It has been a greater creative venture than if I had played music, wrote prose or drew a picture, and yet some wouldn't call it 'art'.
Well, hey now. I absolutely agree that interactive design is art, but there's no reason to defensively diminish other mediums.
I'm speaking personally. It's been a greater creative venture for me as the creator than all the songs I wrote in my late teens, all the scripts I wrote in my early 20s. Maybe it's just because the recency effect.
Certainly requires a lot more work. Writing a song was something you did over a day or two, prose was more longterm but it was a single job. Building an RPG campaign is like being a single mother; I wash and dry. Dialogue, gameplay tweaks, map design, improvisation, creating a good environment, hell even 'sound design' in the time I spend going through soundtracks picking the right mood music for specific areas and situations.
@MuttersomeTaxicab: Depends on what you define as art. I think you are trying to say a game without illustration or visual aesthetic- which it kind of does have on a basic level. Art goes beyond that though, so it makes sense, and there is more to it for their filter, part of which involves how the game is coded. A lot of how a game is designed is considered as well. From what I have been reading on this they are recognizing video games for their art on several levels beyond the aesthetics.
Yeah. I was mostly making a stupid joke for the sake of making a stupid joke. I was blithely praising the MoMA for not just picking the games with the highest production values when it comes to their art department, though. Some of the coolest emergent narratives have come out of Eve Online and Dwarf Fortress. So awesome to see them getting their propers in a for-real artsy setting. Looks like they've actually got their heads on straight and aren't just throwing up their hands and opening it to some stupid public vote.
Excited to see the show when it opens. Also pleasantly surprised by how well everyone seems to be taking this announcement. The show at the Smithsonian was neat, but actually adding games to a museum's collection is a new milestone entirely.
That comment about Passage may bum you out, Patrick, but it's unfortunately entirely accurate. That game is the equivalent of a pretentious art school student's experimental film which claims to analyze the human condition but really just makes no sense and carries no meaning. Passage does not deserve to be on this list.
The design elements and such involved certainly deserve recognition, but stuff like this always feels mildly pandering.
How so?
Just having people who presumably otherwise don't pay much attention to the medium put up a display saying 'look at how special these things are!' in the hopes of looking 'hip' and attracting a specific demographic. Granted, there's probably genuine interest on the part of at least some people involved, and it might be tasteful and informative, but too often this sort of thing just end up feeling a bit weird. I dunno.
I don't really get why it matters? I guess if someone wants to pump their fist at Ebert and say you were wrong, but what's the point in that. If a person enjoys a particular type of media why does it matter if another person doesn't like it, cause really that's the only reason why a person would say that it's not art. I suppose it's human nature to want to know that it's cool to like the thing they like.
It's not about personal likes, it's about legitimacy and principle. Ebert didn't say games are boring and stupid, he said games can't be art. And even if that's not really a rational position to take anymore, it's still being discussed, which is not the case with other art forms. That this kind of wholesale dismissal of an art form is still done is why this news matters. When the art establishment accepts games as part of the art gang, it'll trickle down, and eventually we can start talking about the qualities of singular works and whether or not they are art rather than having to constantly validate an entire medium.
ColecoVision Donkey Kong™ (Action), Zaxxon (Target), Pitfall II: Lost Caverns (Adventure), Star Trek: Strategic Operations Simulator (Tactics)
Intellivision TRON: Maze‐Atron (Action), Star Strike (Target), Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (Adventure), Utopia (Tactics)
Commodore 64 Jumpman (Action), Attack of the Mutant Camels (Target), The Bard's Tale III: Thief of Fate (Adventure), Pirates! (Tactics)
Nintendo Entertainment System Super Mario Brothers 3 (Action), 1943: The Battle of Midway (Target), The Legend of Zelda (Adventure), Desert Commander (Tactics)
SEGA Master System Marble Madness (Action), After Burner (Target), Phantasy Star (Adventure), Spy vs Spy (Tactics)
SEGA Genesis Earthworm Jim (Action), Gunstar Heroes (Target), Phantasy Star IV (Adventure), Dune II: Battle for Arrakis (Tactics)
Super Nintendo Entertainment System Super Mario World (Action), Star Fox™ (Target), The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (Adventure), SimCity (Tactics)
SEGA Saturn Tomb Raider (Action), Panzer Dragoon II: Zwei (Target), Panzer Dragoon Saga (Adventure), SimCity 2000 (Tactics)
DOS/Windows DOOM II (Action), Diablo II (Target), Fallout (Adventure), StarCraft (Tactics)
PlayStation Metal Gear Solid (Action), Einhander (Target), Final Fantasy VII (Adventure), Final Fantasy Tactics (Tactics)
Nintendo 64 Super Mario 64 (Action), Star Fox 64* (Target), The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (Adventure), Worms Armageddon (Tactics)
SEGA Dreamcast Sonic Adventure (Action), Rez (Target), Shenmue (Adventure), ChuChu Rocket! (Tactics)
PlayStation 2 Shadow of the Colossus (Action), Gradius V (Target), Ōkami (Adventure), Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty (Tactics)
Microsoft XBox Halo 2 (Action), Panzer Dragoon Orta (Target), Fable (Adventure), Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell (Tactics)
Nintendo GameCube Metroid Prime 2: Echoes (Action), Star Fox™: Assault (Target), The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker (Adventure), Pikmin 2 (Tactics)
Modern Windows Portal (Action), flOw (Target), Fallout 3 (Adventure), Minecraft (Tactics)
Microsoft XBox 360 Bioshock (Action), Geometry Wars: Retro Evolved 2 (Target), Mass Effect 2 (Adventure), Lord of the Rings: Battle for Middle Earth II (Tactics)
Nintendo Wii Super Mario Galaxy 2 (Action), Boom Blox (Target), The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Adventure), Zack & Wiki: Quest for Barbaros’ Treasure (Tactics)
PlayStation 3 Uncharted 2: Among Thieves (Action), Flower (Target), Heavy Rain (Adventure), Brütal Legend (Tactics)
The design elements and such involved certainly deserve recognition, but stuff like this always feels mildly pandering.
How so?
Just having people who presumably otherwise don't pay much attention to the medium put up a display saying 'look at how special these things are!' in the hopes of looking 'hip' and attracting a specific demographic. Granted, there's probably genuine interest on the part of at least some people involved, and it might be tasteful and informative, but too often this sort of thing just end up feeling a bit weird. I dunno.
Yeah it'd feel legitemate if they said "Alright, The Sims is a pretty interesting dot in computer history." or "Arcade cabinets are officially old news, so here's a pinball machine and an original Puck Man." but Canabalt and Flow and Animal Crossing, Grim Fandango and 40 other games is kind of just a toybox.
To SOME people who play games: Chrono Trigger might be a thing that means something- but to the population at large, they could go without it.
The design elements and such involved certainly deserve recognition, but stuff like this always feels mildly pandering.
How so?
Just having people who presumably otherwise don't pay much attention to the medium put up a display saying 'look at how special these things are!' in the hopes of looking 'hip' and attracting a specific demographic. Granted, there's probably genuine interest on the part of at least some people involved, and it might be tasteful and informative, but too often this sort of thing just end up feeling a bit weird. I dunno.
Yeah it'd feel legitemate if they said "Alright, The Sims is a pretty interesting dot in computer history." or "Arcade cabinets are officially old news, so here's a pinball machine and an original Puck Man." but Canabalt and Flow and Animal Crossing, Grim Fandango and 40 other games is kind of just a toybox. To SOME people who play games: Chrono Trigger might be a thing that means something- but to the population at large, they could go without it.
Exactly.
There's another thing about this that bothers me. One of the weird side effects of the culture that's appeared around video games lately is the desperate need to make it appear 'legitimate'. I think most people agree that games aren't just for kids, but the way some people try to twist ones that already exist to fit into their idea of what is culturally relevant just ends up being kind of embarrassing. It's why that Polygon documentary trailer got so much flak: trying to make these things into more than what they are just underlines how inconsequential the whole thing is. Arguing for more maturity and arty-ness in games is one thing, but at a certain point you have to accept that they're a different beast, and no amount of mimicking art/literary critics and acting traditionally high-minded is going to change that.
Man, no Ico or Shadow of the Colossus is the biggest rub for me!
Yeah I'm somewhat sad that those did not make the list. Especially Shadow of the Colossus (no disrespect intended to Ico but SotC just resonated very deeply with me for reasons I can't completely explain)
The design elements and such involved certainly deserve recognition, but stuff like this always feels mildly pandering.
How so?
Just having people who presumably otherwise don't pay much attention to the medium put up a display saying 'look at how special these things are!' in the hopes of looking 'hip' and attracting a specific demographic. Granted, there's probably genuine interest on the part of at least some people involved, and it might be tasteful and informative, but too often this sort of thing just end up feeling a bit weird. I dunno.
Yeah it'd feel legitemate if they said "Alright, The Sims is a pretty interesting dot in computer history." or "Arcade cabinets are officially old news, so here's a pinball machine and an original Puck Man." but Canabalt and Flow and Animal Crossing, Grim Fandango and 40 other games is kind of just a toybox. To SOME people who play games: Chrono Trigger might be a thing that means something- but to the population at large, they could go without it.
Exactly.
There's another thing about this that bothers me. One of the weird side effects of the culture that's appeared around video games lately is the desperate need to make it appear 'legitimate'. I think most people agree that games aren't just for kids, but the way some people try to twist ones that already exist to fit into their idea of what is culturally relevant just ends up being kind of embarrassing. It's why that Polygon documentary trailer got so much flak: trying to make these things into more than what they are just underlines how inconsequential the whole thing is. Arguing for more maturity and arty-ness in games is one thing, but at a certain point you have to accept that they're a different beast, and no amount of mimicking art/literary critics and acting traditionally high-minded is going to change that.
To be fair, the 40 games is what they want down the road. From what I gather, this is a "new category of artworks in MoMA’s collection that we hope will grow in the future" which means that they're looking to make these things a part of the permanent collection, and the 40 is their blueprint for the ones they want to acquire.
ok I like minecraft but how the hell did it make it on that list
Regardless of what the game itself actually is, it brought a sort of unprecedented global community together to collectively create and share stuff with everyone; and a lot more studios are taking that model and working that into their games. I would definitely refer to that as an important moment in interactive design.
As an artist I completely understand the response about Passage. I don't necessarily agree with it because I know how experimental a game evoking those feelings really is, but you have to understand that sentimentality and similar feelings (like nostalgia) that easily get a pass in games are seriously dangerous territory in the visual arts. It's why artists like William-Adolphe Bouguereau are so roundly despised by most serious artists. In painting you can be an absolute technical master and be hated for having any trace of sentimentality. The only painter I can think of that really ever got away with it was Marc Chagall.
Very pleasantly surprised to see Vib-Ribbon make the cut despite its only official English release coming out in Europe. We can all argue about the legitimacy of the existing list and what we wish would be on there, but given that I think the overall premise is to more broadly give visitors an understanding of the vast scope of ideas and experiences games can provide, that starting lineup is really, really solid in my book. Again, the fact that games like Vib-Ribbon are on the list shows that the curators have a better understanding of the medium's history than what's considered "canon" by Western, and particular American, standards.
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