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#51 Posted by BigD145 (189 posts) -

I would have to say all of these deserve some respect in their time and many deserve respect even now. DF, Chrono, Myst, Portal. Love you.

#52 Posted by masternater27 (918 posts) -

I kind of think wii sports should be in there if we're talking historical design value.

#53 Posted by AMyggen (2878 posts) -

@MarkWahlberg said:

The design elements and such involved certainly deserve recognition, but stuff like this always feels mildly pandering.

How so?

#54 Posted by Little_Socrates (5675 posts) -

Go MoMa! That's awesome! And a great collection of games, too!

Coldplay rules.

#55 Posted by Protonguy (305 posts) -

@nohthink said:

They have flOw but no Journey?? BLASPHEMY!!

1 billion times YES!

#56 Posted by CornBREDX (5125 posts) -
@MuttersomeTaxicab: Depends on what you define as art. 
 
I think you are trying to say a game without illustration or visual aesthetic- which it kind of does have on a basic level.  
 
Art goes beyond that though, so it makes sense, and there is more to it for their filter, part of which involves how the game is coded.  A lot of how a game is designed is considered as well.
 
From what I have been reading on this they are recognizing video games for their art on several levels beyond the aesthetics. 
#57 Posted by Tan (425 posts) -

So choices are little weird, but Animal Crossing is by far the most baffling.

Cool though!

#58 Posted by Gordo789 (358 posts) -

@DevourerOfTime said:

I don't see how Canabalt fits in that list. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

Canabalt is a pretty interesting game for what it is. It has a pretty unique visual aesthetic, the music is great, the gameplay is simple but compelling. It's NO Pac-Man or whatever but it's definitely worth looking at.

#59 Posted by NlGHTCRAWLER (1215 posts) -

Journey was boring.

Limbo was artistic and magnificent.

#60 Posted by Canteu (2821 posts) -

One day, all museums and public education sectors will teach us all about the miracle that is Dark Chronicle.

It's okay that they don't get it yet. They will...in time.

#61 Posted by stise (89 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

It has been a greater creative venture than if I had played music, wrote prose or drew a picture, and yet some wouldn't call it 'art'.

Well, hey now. I absolutely agree that interactive design is art, but there's no reason to defensively diminish other mediums.

#62 Posted by MikkaQ (10284 posts) -

Canabalt stands out as a weak link there. But I guess they had to reflect the iOS stuff somehow and that game is pretty much the basis for everything else on iOS.

#63 Posted by SolongWrex (150 posts) -

@Tan said:

So choices are little weird, but Animal Crossing is by far the most baffling.

Cool though!

Have you played it?

#64 Posted by Ghostiet (5251 posts) -

I'm happy right now.

#65 Posted by Jazzycola (662 posts) -

I don't really get why it matters? I guess if someone wants to pump their fist at Ebert and say you were wrong, but what's the point in that. If a person enjoys a particular type of media why does it matter if another person doesn't like it, cause really that's the only reason why a person would say that it's not art. I suppose it's human nature to want to know that it's cool to like the thing they like.

#66 Edited by Brodehouse (9887 posts) -

@stise said:

@Brodehouse said:

It has been a greater creative venture than if I had played music, wrote prose or drew a picture, and yet some wouldn't call it 'art'.

Well, hey now. I absolutely agree that interactive design is art, but there's no reason to defensively diminish other mediums.

I'm speaking personally. It's been a greater creative venture for me as the creator than all the songs I wrote in my late teens, all the scripts I wrote in my early 20s. Maybe it's just because the recency effect.

Certainly requires a lot more work. Writing a song was something you did over a day or two, prose was more longterm but it was a single job. Building an RPG campaign is like being a single mother; I wash and dry. Dialogue, gameplay tweaks, map design, improvisation, creating a good environment, hell even 'sound design' in the time I spend going through soundtracks picking the right mood music for specific areas and situations.

#67 Posted by MuttersomeTaxicab (668 posts) -

@Aeterna said:

@MuttersomeTaxicab said:

DWARF FORTRESS. A GAME WITHOUT ART IS ART.

This, also surprised me. I think it's wonderful.

Me too!

@CornBREDX said:

@MuttersomeTaxicab: Depends on what you define as art. I think you are trying to say a game without illustration or visual aesthetic- which it kind of does have on a basic level. Art goes beyond that though, so it makes sense, and there is more to it for their filter, part of which involves how the game is coded. A lot of how a game is designed is considered as well. From what I have been reading on this they are recognizing video games for their art on several levels beyond the aesthetics.

Yeah. I was mostly making a stupid joke for the sake of making a stupid joke. I was blithely praising the MoMA for not just picking the games with the highest production values when it comes to their art department, though. Some of the coolest emergent narratives have come out of Eve Online and Dwarf Fortress. So awesome to see them getting their propers in a for-real artsy setting. Looks like they've actually got their heads on straight and aren't just throwing up their hands and opening it to some stupid public vote.

#68 Edited by falling_fast (2210 posts) -

interesting choices.

I'd like to read further into the rationale behind each choice at some point.

#69 Posted by Gold_Skulltulla (216 posts) -

Excited to see the show when it opens. Also pleasantly surprised by how well everyone seems to be taking this announcement. The show at the Smithsonian was neat, but actually adding games to a museum's collection is a new milestone entirely.

#70 Posted by Deusoma (3006 posts) -

That comment about Passage may bum you out, Patrick, but it's unfortunately entirely accurate. That game is the equivalent of a pretentious art school student's experimental film which claims to analyze the human condition but really just makes no sense and carries no meaning. Passage does not deserve to be on this list.

#71 Posted by MarkWahlberg (4603 posts) -

@AMyggen said:

@MarkWahlberg said:

The design elements and such involved certainly deserve recognition, but stuff like this always feels mildly pandering.

How so?

Just having people who presumably otherwise don't pay much attention to the medium put up a display saying 'look at how special these things are!' in the hopes of looking 'hip' and attracting a specific demographic. Granted, there's probably genuine interest on the part of at least some people involved, and it might be tasteful and informative, but too often this sort of thing just end up feeling a bit weird. I dunno.

#72 Posted by Baal_Sagoth (1256 posts) -

Pac-Man and Tetris are in - this is very good. My most essential desires are covered.

#73 Posted by joshth (505 posts) -

They included Dwarf Fortress?! What?! That's amazing! I didn't think anyone other then real hardcore gaming people even knew that existed.

#74 Edited by SolongWrex (150 posts) -

@Jazzycola said:

I don't really get why it matters? I guess if someone wants to pump their fist at Ebert and say you were wrong, but what's the point in that. If a person enjoys a particular type of media why does it matter if another person doesn't like it, cause really that's the only reason why a person would say that it's not art. I suppose it's human nature to want to know that it's cool to like the thing they like.

It's not about personal likes, it's about legitimacy and principle. Ebert didn't say games are boring and stupid, he said games can't be art. And even if that's not really a rational position to take anymore, it's still being discussed, which is not the case with other art forms. That this kind of wholesale dismissal of an art form is still done is why this news matters. When the art establishment accepts games as part of the art gang, it'll trickle down, and eventually we can start talking about the qualities of singular works and whether or not they are art rather than having to constantly validate an entire medium.

#75 Edited by Cubic (171 posts) -

That's a pretty good list. I can see why they didn't add many slow-burn games - Grim Fandango, Shadows of the Colossus etc - because something in an art gallery needs to be ingested in minutes, not hours (which is unfortunate for games, as a fundamentally long-form medium). Journey should definitely be there at some point, though.

To be honest, even though I love that game to death, I'm not sure one could appreciate Chrono Trigger without sitting down for six hours to play it.

#76 Posted by Phatmac (5725 posts) -

Surprised that there isn't any Final Fantasy love on that list.

#77 Posted by yinstarrunner (1185 posts) -

I really, really like that blurb from the Museum about games being "art" and "interactive design".

Between that and their choice of games, I really feel like they GET IT. Perhaps even more than a lot of gamers and games journalists.

Online
#78 Posted by golguin (3892 posts) -

The Smithsonian American Art Museum did something similar a couple months back with their "Art of Video Games" exhibit.

Their list was more along the lines of what people were expecting...

  • Atari VCS
    Pac-Man (Action), Space Invaders (Target), Pitfall! (Adventure), Combat® (Tactics)
  • ColecoVision
    Donkey Kong™ (Action), Zaxxon (Target), Pitfall II: Lost Caverns (Adventure), Star Trek: Strategic Operations Simulator (Tactics)
  • Intellivision
    TRON: Maze‐Atron (Action), Star Strike (Target), Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (Adventure), Utopia (Tactics)
  • Commodore 64
    Jumpman (Action), Attack of the Mutant Camels (Target), The Bard's Tale III: Thief of Fate (Adventure), Pirates! (Tactics)
  • Nintendo Entertainment System
    Super Mario Brothers 3 (Action), 1943: The Battle of Midway (Target), The Legend of Zelda (Adventure), Desert Commander (Tactics)
  • SEGA Master System
    Marble Madness (Action), After Burner (Target), Phantasy Star (Adventure), Spy vs Spy (Tactics)
  • SEGA Genesis
    Earthworm Jim (Action), Gunstar Heroes (Target), Phantasy Star IV (Adventure), Dune II: Battle for Arrakis (Tactics)
  • Super Nintendo Entertainment System
    Super Mario World (Action), Star Fox™ (Target), The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (Adventure), SimCity (Tactics)
  • SEGA Saturn
    Tomb Raider (Action), Panzer Dragoon II: Zwei (Target), Panzer Dragoon Saga (Adventure), SimCity 2000 (Tactics)
  • DOS/Windows
    DOOM II (Action), Diablo II (Target), Fallout (Adventure), StarCraft (Tactics)
  • PlayStation
    Metal Gear Solid (Action), Einhander (Target), Final Fantasy VII (Adventure), Final Fantasy Tactics (Tactics)
  • Nintendo 64
    Super Mario 64 (Action), Star Fox 64* (Target), The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (Adventure), Worms Armageddon (Tactics)
  • SEGA Dreamcast
    Sonic Adventure (Action), Rez (Target), Shenmue (Adventure), ChuChu Rocket! (Tactics)
  • PlayStation 2
    Shadow of the Colossus (Action), Gradius V (Target), Ōkami (Adventure), Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty (Tactics)
  • Microsoft XBox
    Halo 2 (Action), Panzer Dragoon Orta (Target), Fable (Adventure), Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell (Tactics)
  • Nintendo GameCube
    Metroid Prime 2: Echoes (Action), Star Fox™: Assault (Target), The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker (Adventure), Pikmin 2 (Tactics)
  • Modern Windows
    Portal (Action), flOw (Target), Fallout 3 (Adventure), Minecraft (Tactics)
  • Microsoft XBox 360
    Bioshock (Action), Geometry Wars: Retro Evolved 2 (Target), Mass Effect 2 (Adventure), Lord of the Rings: Battle for Middle Earth II (Tactics)
  • Nintendo Wii
    Super Mario Galaxy 2 (Action), Boom Blox (Target), The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Adventure), Zack & Wiki: Quest for Barbaros’ Treasure (Tactics)
  • PlayStation 3
    Uncharted 2: Among Thieves (Action), Flower (Target), Heavy Rain (Adventure), Brütal Legend (Tactics)
#79 Edited by I_smell (3924 posts) -
@MarkWahlberg said:

@AMyggen said:

@MarkWahlberg said:

The design elements and such involved certainly deserve recognition, but stuff like this always feels mildly pandering.

How so?

Just having people who presumably otherwise don't pay much attention to the medium put up a display saying 'look at how special these things are!' in the hopes of looking 'hip' and attracting a specific demographic. Granted, there's probably genuine interest on the part of at least some people involved, and it might be tasteful and informative, but too often this sort of thing just end up feeling a bit weird. I dunno.

Yeah it'd feel legitemate if they said "Alright, The Sims is a pretty interesting dot in computer history." or "Arcade cabinets are officially old news, so here's a pinball machine and an original Puck Man." but Canabalt and Flow and Animal Crossing, Grim Fandango and 40 other games is kind of just a toybox.
 
To SOME people who play games: Chrono Trigger might be a thing that means something- but to the population at large, they could go without it.
#80 Posted by bvilleneuve (265 posts) -

They should hire me. I can run a pretty good 15-minute tour of all the relevant details in Myst. Just ask my long-suffering girlfriend.

#81 Posted by kycinematic (140 posts) -

fuck yeah, cool to see dwarf fortress on that list.

#82 Posted by PatientBeast (34 posts) -

That is a fine selection of games. Hope to see that exhibit in the near future.

#83 Posted by MarkWahlberg (4603 posts) -

@I_smell said:

@MarkWahlberg said:

@AMyggen said:

@MarkWahlberg said:

The design elements and such involved certainly deserve recognition, but stuff like this always feels mildly pandering.

How so?

Just having people who presumably otherwise don't pay much attention to the medium put up a display saying 'look at how special these things are!' in the hopes of looking 'hip' and attracting a specific demographic. Granted, there's probably genuine interest on the part of at least some people involved, and it might be tasteful and informative, but too often this sort of thing just end up feeling a bit weird. I dunno.

Yeah it'd feel legitemate if they said "Alright, The Sims is a pretty interesting dot in computer history." or "Arcade cabinets are officially old news, so here's a pinball machine and an original Puck Man." but Canabalt and Flow and Animal Crossing, Grim Fandango and 40 other games is kind of just a toybox. To SOME people who play games: Chrono Trigger might be a thing that means something- but to the population at large, they could go without it.

Exactly.

There's another thing about this that bothers me. One of the weird side effects of the culture that's appeared around video games lately is the desperate need to make it appear 'legitimate'. I think most people agree that games aren't just for kids, but the way some people try to twist ones that already exist to fit into their idea of what is culturally relevant just ends up being kind of embarrassing. It's why that Polygon documentary trailer got so much flak: trying to make these things into more than what they are just underlines how inconsequential the whole thing is. Arguing for more maturity and arty-ness in games is one thing, but at a certain point you have to accept that they're a different beast, and no amount of mimicking art/literary critics and acting traditionally high-minded is going to change that.

#84 Posted by Levio (1784 posts) -

WHAT!? Duke Nukem Forever didn't make the cut!?!?!?

#85 Posted by Scarbearer (36 posts) -

@ChrisTaran said:

Man, no Ico or Shadow of the Colossus is the biggest rub for me!

Yeah I'm somewhat sad that those did not make the list. Especially Shadow of the Colossus (no disrespect intended to Ico but SotC just resonated very deeply with me for reasons I can't completely explain)

#86 Posted by Hunter5024 (5639 posts) -

Chrono Trigger! =D

#87 Posted by jillsandwich (762 posts) -

That's a fucking awesome list. The concept of Dwarf Fortress being in a museum is endlessly entertaining.

#88 Posted by darkdragonmage99 (740 posts) -

ok I like minecraft but how the hell did it make it on that list

#89 Posted by shodan2020 (664 posts) -

I think it's great that more museums are taking an interest in video games. The list is pretty good too.

#90 Posted by CrossTheAtlantic (1145 posts) -

@MarkWahlberg said:

@I_smell said:

@MarkWahlberg said:

@AMyggen said:

@MarkWahlberg said:

The design elements and such involved certainly deserve recognition, but stuff like this always feels mildly pandering.

How so?

Just having people who presumably otherwise don't pay much attention to the medium put up a display saying 'look at how special these things are!' in the hopes of looking 'hip' and attracting a specific demographic. Granted, there's probably genuine interest on the part of at least some people involved, and it might be tasteful and informative, but too often this sort of thing just end up feeling a bit weird. I dunno.

Yeah it'd feel legitemate if they said "Alright, The Sims is a pretty interesting dot in computer history." or "Arcade cabinets are officially old news, so here's a pinball machine and an original Puck Man." but Canabalt and Flow and Animal Crossing, Grim Fandango and 40 other games is kind of just a toybox. To SOME people who play games: Chrono Trigger might be a thing that means something- but to the population at large, they could go without it.

Exactly.

There's another thing about this that bothers me. One of the weird side effects of the culture that's appeared around video games lately is the desperate need to make it appear 'legitimate'. I think most people agree that games aren't just for kids, but the way some people try to twist ones that already exist to fit into their idea of what is culturally relevant just ends up being kind of embarrassing. It's why that Polygon documentary trailer got so much flak: trying to make these things into more than what they are just underlines how inconsequential the whole thing is. Arguing for more maturity and arty-ness in games is one thing, but at a certain point you have to accept that they're a different beast, and no amount of mimicking art/literary critics and acting traditionally high-minded is going to change that.

To be fair, the 40 games is what they want down the road. From what I gather, this is a "new category of artworks in MoMA’s collection that we hope will grow in the future" which means that they're looking to make these things a part of the permanent collection, and the 40 is their blueprint for the ones they want to acquire.

It seems pretty legit.

#91 Posted by coakroach (2490 posts) -

FUCK YES VIB RIBBON

#92 Posted by Suits (245 posts) -

qualifies for a quest series, if it's not there yet

#93 Posted by prestonhedges (1965 posts) -

Full Throttle was better than Grim Fandango. There, I said it.

#94 Posted by Draxyle (1835 posts) -

@darkdragonmage99 said:

ok I like minecraft but how the hell did it make it on that list

Regardless of what the game itself actually is, it brought a sort of unprecedented global community together to collectively create and share stuff with everyone; and a lot more studios are taking that model and working that into their games. I would definitely refer to that as an important moment in interactive design.

#95 Posted by ErisRon (98 posts) -

take that ebert (sorry)

#96 Posted by oraknabo (1457 posts) -

Patrick,

As an artist I completely understand the response about Passage. I don't necessarily agree with it because I know how experimental a game evoking those feelings really is, but you have to understand that sentimentality and similar feelings (like nostalgia) that easily get a pass in games are seriously dangerous territory in the visual arts. It's why artists like William-Adolphe Bouguereau are so roundly despised by most serious artists. In painting you can be an absolute technical master and be hated for having any trace of sentimentality. The only painter I can think of that really ever got away with it was Marc Chagall.

#97 Edited by Pepsiman (2470 posts) -

Very pleasantly surprised to see Vib-Ribbon make the cut despite its only official English release coming out in Europe. We can all argue about the legitimacy of the existing list and what we wish would be on there, but given that I think the overall premise is to more broadly give visitors an understanding of the vast scope of ideas and experiences games can provide, that starting lineup is really, really solid in my book. Again, the fact that games like Vib-Ribbon are on the list shows that the curators have a better understanding of the medium's history than what's considered "canon" by Western, and particular American, standards.

#98 Posted by AV_Gamer (607 posts) -

It's about time. Video Games are definitely apart of human culture and need to be seen as such. Just like all other forms of art.

Looks like Ebert lost in the end.

#99 Posted by White (1341 posts) -

Looks like games from the 1980s take priority in the selection. We'll have to wait till it's 2030 before games from 2000 are featured.

#100 Posted by darkdragonmage99 (740 posts) -

@Draxyle: And that sir is a good explanation thank you.