New Tropes VS Women & the Importance of Basic Respect

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TruthTellah

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#251  Edited By TruthTellah

@hunter5024 said:

@truthtellah said:

I think the point is regarding discussion of the topic in general, not just the specific discussion here(which I'd consider mostly decent). Sometimes part of it veers into the idea of how different genders and races are treated today and throughout history, and the wide amount of information on it can lead to a lack of awareness or acceptance of information that isn't accurate. This makes discussion occasionally more difficult, as people are judging different visions of the impact of such factors as prejudice and objectification throughout history and today.

Maybe that is what he meant, but that's not at all how I interpreted KentonClay's comment. To me it sounded a lot more dismissive. As if these topics are just some parade of fools who are stumbling into each other because they aren't educated enough to find the way on their own.

Oh, I also don't agree with the dismissal of our ability to discuss the topic, as I believe it is quite possible. (thus making a thread about it) But I do think Hailinel was right to say Soldierg's comment was relevant to the discussion, as differing levels and quality of information can be a factor in the difficulty of talking about topics like this.

Perhaps we're just using different language to represent similar opinions.

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Hunter5024

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@hunter5024 said:

@truthtellah said:

I think the point is regarding discussion of the topic in general, not just the specific discussion here(which I'd consider mostly decent). Sometimes part of it veers into the idea of how different genders and races are treated today and throughout history, and the wide amount of information on it can lead to a lack of awareness or acceptance of information that isn't accurate. This makes discussion occasionally more difficult, as people are judging different visions of the impact of such factors as prejudice and objectification throughout history and today.

Maybe that is what he meant, but that's not at all how I interpreted KentonClay's comment. To me it sounded a lot more dismissive. As if these topics are just some parade of fools who are stumbling into each other because they aren't educated enough to find the way on their own.

Oh, I also don't agree with the dismissal of our ability to discuss the topic, as I believe it is quite possible. (thus making a thread about it) But I do think Hailinel was right to say Soldierg's comment was relevant to the discussion, as differing levels and quality of information can be a factor in the difficulty of talking about topics like this.

Perhaps we're just using different language to represent similar opinions.

I do agree with the sentiment that these things shouldn't devolve into personal attacks, and that we should avoid just screaming past each other, I just don't think those situations are caused by one group of people being more educated than the other. I believe everyone's opinion has some value, which is the comment I was really taking issue with.

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TruthTellah

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#253  Edited By TruthTellah

@hunter5024 said:

@truthtellah said:

@hunter5024 said:

@truthtellah said:

I think the point is regarding discussion of the topic in general, not just the specific discussion here(which I'd consider mostly decent). Sometimes part of it veers into the idea of how different genders and races are treated today and throughout history, and the wide amount of information on it can lead to a lack of awareness or acceptance of information that isn't accurate. This makes discussion occasionally more difficult, as people are judging different visions of the impact of such factors as prejudice and objectification throughout history and today.

Maybe that is what he meant, but that's not at all how I interpreted KentonClay's comment. To me it sounded a lot more dismissive. As if these topics are just some parade of fools who are stumbling into each other because they aren't educated enough to find the way on their own.

Oh, I also don't agree with the dismissal of our ability to discuss the topic, as I believe it is quite possible. (thus making a thread about it) But I do think Hailinel was right to say Soldierg's comment was relevant to the discussion, as differing levels and quality of information can be a factor in the difficulty of talking about topics like this.

Perhaps we're just using different language to represent similar opinions.

I do agree with the sentiment that these things shouldn't devolve into personal attacks, and that we should avoid just screaming past each other, I just don't think those situations are caused by one group of people being more educated than the other. I believe everyone's opinion has some value, which is the comment I was really taking issue with.

I think everyone's opinion has value, as it's coming from someone that has value, but the quality of an opinion can certainly vary. I think someone disagreeing with me on their interpretation of female characters in videogames is usually far more understandable than someone telling me that all women are secretly plotting to destroy them. I know for a fact that isn't true. Or if someone is denying generally known facts of history or present day.

Someone's opinion being of relatively poor basis doesn't mean there isn't still value in it, as the person behind the opinion matters and their concern driving that opinion matters, but it does mean that there may be more making things difficult to reconcile than simply difference of opinion. A lot of misinformation does exist, and factors in the world can encourage the ignorance of some facts and acceptance of misinformation.

Another side of that is the general lack of quality information and abundance of misinformation about different viewpoints. So, if you're going into a conversation with someone and have used your personal experience or stories you've heard to judge a wider group of people which share opinions with those you have known or heard about, that may not always be fully accurate. Often times, people are quite wrong about one another.

Unfortunately, that isn't really preventable. The best we can do is mutually acknowledge that we may not fully understand the other, and in discussing things, we might have a chance to better reach such understanding. It's showing others basic respect and good faith in hopes of having a decent and honest discussion. Sometimes that exchange leads to changing of opinions; sometimes it doesn't. Hopefully, by the end, there is at least some further understanding to build on.

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Hunter5024

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#254  Edited By Hunter5024

@truthtellah said:

I think everyone's opinion has value, as it's coming from someone that has value, but the quality of an opinion can certainly vary. I think someone disagreeing with me on their interpretation of female characters in videogames is usually far more understandable than someone telling me that all women are secretly plotting to destroy them. I know for a fact that isn't true. Or if someone is denying generally known facts of history or present day. Someone's opinion being of poor basis doesn't mean there isn't still value in it, as the person behind the opinion matters and their concern driving that opinion matters, but it does mean that there may be more making things difficult to reconcile than simply difference of opinion. A lot of misinformation does exist, and factors in the world can encourage the ignorance of some facts and acceptance of misinformation.

Another side of that is the general lack of quality information and abundance of misinformation about different viewpoints. So, if you're going into a conversation with someone and have used your personal experience or stories you've heard to judge a wider group of people which share opinions with those you have known or heard about, that may not always be accurate. Often times, people are quite wrong about one another. Unfortunately, that isn't really preventable. The best we can do is mutually acknowledge that we may not fully understand the other, and in discussing things, we might have a chance to better reach such understanding. Sometimes that leads to changing of opinions; sometimes it doesn't.

I don't disagree with you. I just don't think it's the best perspective to look at it from. I wouldn't say "That opinion is valuable, this one is not so much." I would say "I agree with that opinion, but this one I don't." Maybe that's just because I've been fortunate enough not to participate in threads where misinformation dominated the larger discussion. Of course you're free to look at it however you want.

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TruthTellah

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#255  Edited By TruthTellah
@hunter5024 said:

@truthtellah said:

I think everyone's opinion has value, as it's coming from someone that has value, but the quality of an opinion can certainly vary. I think someone disagreeing with me on their interpretation of female characters in videogames is usually far more understandable than someone telling me that all women are secretly plotting to destroy them. I know for a fact that isn't true. Or if someone is denying generally known facts of history or present day. Someone's opinion being of poor basis doesn't mean there isn't still value in it, as the person behind the opinion matters and their concern driving that opinion matters, but it does mean that there may be more making things difficult to reconcile than simply difference of opinion. A lot of misinformation does exist, and factors in the world can encourage the ignorance of some facts and acceptance of misinformation.

Another side of that is the general lack of quality information and abundance of misinformation about different viewpoints. So, if you're going into a conversation with someone and have used your personal experience or stories you've heard to judge a wider group of people which share opinions with those you have known or heard about, that may not always be accurate. Often times, people are quite wrong about one another. Unfortunately, that isn't really preventable. The best we can do is mutually acknowledge that we may not fully understand the other, and in discussing things, we might have a chance to better reach such understanding. Sometimes that leads to changing of opinions; sometimes it doesn't.

I don't disagree with you. I just don't think it's the best perspective to look at it from. I wouldn't say "That opinion is valuable, this one is not so much." I would say "I agree with that opinion, but this one I don't." Maybe that's just because I've been fortunate enough not to participate in threads where misinformation dominated the larger discussion. Of course you're free to look at it however you want.

It certainly depends on how opinion-based a topic is. Interpretation of videogame tropes is relatively subjective and up for debate. Though, the real world details which may connect to it(like looking at stripping in videogames and the impact of stripping in real life) can rely more on tangible information which can make a significant difference in whether you consider an opinion informed or not.

In many cases, the issue is more an interpretation or theory, and that's where "I agree with this opinion, but this one I don't." But there are also topics where specific information is key, and sometimes even seemingly subjective topics such as this can have facts become more of a factor, leading to a chance that misinformation or ignorance could lead some opinions to be less valuable(or even destructive) to having an informed discussion. It is not unusual for different perspectives on complex or contentious issues to perceive different information which may be important to a topic, especially when there are various versions of evidence(as in multiple studies on a subject or multiple takes on a historical event).

In general, as long as they don't appear to be ill-willed, it is reasonable to try to bridge that gap with people by bringing potentially missing information into the conversation. In that way, opinions can get closer to being on a similar level of understanding of an issue. Now, someone doesn't need to try to educate anyone and can choose to abstain from engaging with them, but if someone is interested in talking with or appealing to that particular person or group, it makes sense to sometimes try to share such information along with a larger opinion.

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EXTomar

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#257  Edited By EXTomar

No I don't think anyone is saying "everyone's entitled to their opinion and we should all sit down and have a respectful discussion about it" as much as these are actually two separate things:

- Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

- If you want to discuss, one needs to be respectful.

One thing many have noted about "modern argument" is that not only do they conflate difference in opinion with a personal attack but that they never recognize when consensus has been reached with no conclusion. Sometimes there are diametrically opposed stances to an argument where classically the parties would just recognize the disjunction and disengage because neither side has a persuasive enough argument concede to the other. Today people are "beating a dead horse" trying to convince another their stance is better when that will never happen not because they were not persuasive enough but that their stance isn't as strong as they think it is. It isn't constructive and often leads to a complete loss of respect. I am not perfect on this and fail to recognize this in myself and the direction of the argument where I can only try to purposely temper the argument over all to help avoid that in myself. But as we see sometimes on online that doesn't happen where people are slinging nasty things where we've already seen that happen with her videos with threats of violence.

Think about that for a moment: People are threatening a women with violence because she made a video. That is kind of terrible. Forget about the video itself or whether or not it or the argument is sound because I don't believe the lack of respect is coming from her or the tone of her video.

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#258  Edited By joshwent
@truthtellah said:

I can't personally speak to whether Sarkeesian does consistently show basic respect in conversations with those of different viewpoints, as I haven't seen many examples of her engaging with different folks; though, as far as people who approach her with reasonable and non-accusatory objections(such as the example I cited earlier with the creator of Spelunky defending his game), it seems like she has shown such respect.

Friend, please, you need to stop using this as an example. Like I said and cited in my previous post in this thread, it just never happened. Derek Yu never objected to any claim that the TvsW video made about Spelunky, and even went on to defend Anita's criticisms to others on Twitter. The idea that he voiced some objections to her, she acknowledged them and respectfully disagreed, and they both went away happy... is just pure fiction.

I'm not saying that Anita necessarily would be disrespectful if he had indeed actually disagreed with her, but trying to twist this scenario into one proving that she and others respected a dissenting voice is just adding more misinformation to the discussion.

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#260  Edited By darkpower

I think the main problems right now are:

  • Even though people do understand that such issues in games should be brought up, they wish that it wasn't HER that brings them up because of the constant baggage she continues to get and completely ignores constantly (as described below).
  • The whole issue of knicking others' let's play footage without giving credit to them is still out there and prevalent, and she has yet to even address that the issue even exists.
  • Her points fall completely apart when she cherry picks everything and uses either examples that are completely out of context, interprets them her own way and describes her views as fact, or misinterprets the games she brings up entirely. If you saw the full context of some of the games she uses as examples to prove her point, you'd wonder if those were the right examples to bring up in the discussion.
  • Her more prevalent backers seem willing to let her get away with absolute murder, and bad mouth anyone that even remotely calls her out on anything. There is a difference between vitriol and civil discourse, but it seems as though those backers either fail to see the difference, or try to equate the two in order to silence any criticisms about her, as if to say she is the only one they accept as qualified enough to bring up these topics. They've completely ignored the Santa Monica 2010 speech, they ignore the cherry picking, they ignore the let's play footage plagiarism (for lack of a better term), etc.
  • It seems that she, too, has been now viewed as some sort of douchebag (again, for lack of a better term) when dealing with criticisms, as seen when she responds (rather rarely, I might add) to the two people she did on her Kickstarter page. The CNN International interview is a firm example. She doesn't expect anyone to question her at all, and when someone does, she's rather smug and holier than thou about it.
  • Her most staunch backers are extremely touchy when it comes to criticisms about her. There can't be any form of civil discourse about these things if it is never allowed to happen. Vitriol from the side that despises her is clearly documented, but when someone uses civil discourse to bring up any of the above points, it's equated as vitriol, and the other side seems willing to do anything and everything to silence that, too, to the point where the one that would've acted civilly is forced to "take the next step" to talk over the nastiness and vicious trolling, which only leads to more issues. Again, they do think these problems are important to bring up and they feel they should be, but they have a problem with the messenger that brought it up. Thing is, no one can actually say that without being viewed as misogynistic, sexist, concern troll (how is that even a viable phrase, I wonder), etc.

With this video here, I have to say that she has a problem identifying set pieces in games. Many of the games she covered were either set in a particular time frame where such behaviors were normal (not condoned, but normal nonetheless), or set in a particular world where that is usually going to be the norm. With GTA, yes, there is a particular element of sexually objectifying women. However, first, think about the world that the characters and the game are set in: the underworld of illegal, organized crime and the rise of someone to the top of a syndicate. We have been privy to believe that such an element is part of that culture. Of course, your moral compass may vary about that sort of thing, but the bottom line is that it's a facet of the way that world is usually perceived when you talk about a male being a central character of a game like that.

Also, especially in open world or sandbox games, you are aiming to create a living, breathing world that at least corresponds to the setting you're trying to create. This means creating people within that world that are simply extras in the game: people that you'd just pass by without a second thought. These would include females that dress conservatively, and those that don't mind exposing themselves more freely, and decide to live free as a direct result. Because of this, part of the consequence of creating a living, breathing world that corresponds to the setting you're creating is that if that setting is something in which you'd expect that world to include, which in many times does include a strip club/brothel/whatever you choose to call it. Again, it's not something that you would be comfortable with personally, but therein lies another key aspect: immersion. Creating that very world is supposed to not only get you to believe that you are actually IN the world, but also to create the feeling of they type of character you're playing, and the type of life you are leading.

Also, in many of the games she covers, she liked to bring up "failure states" and "mechanics" (which I'm pretty sure she knicked from TotalBiscuit, too, since she didn't start using these terms until this video, and he uses those terms a hell of a lot), as if the game should automatically flash a game over screen the second you kill a woman. The first issue is something I'll address in a second, but the other thing is that she fails to bring up morality mechanics in some of these games. If you do something wrong in these games that is frowned upon, then you are viewed as a dastardly person, and if you keep doing those acts, then people are going to have a rather negative reaction to you if you attempt to approach them while viewed as such, such as in Fallout: New Vegas where the townspeople will attempt to shoot you dead. She actually uses footage clips from games in which a woman is killed, and when she is, you either get a dialogue box saying that something has changed from your immediate action, or cops have been alerted to your deeds, and are actively pursuing you. In cases where you're the criminal, she also makes reference to how just outrunning the cops is enough to get away with it, when she is actually condemning one of the key aspects of those games: getting away from the cops. These are games, too, in which the developers have constantly stated that just because they create games with these particular elements in them, it doesn't mean they are actively condoning these lifestyles, and their main purpose is to create a story and a world in which deals with the criminal underworld that goes on.

But that first issue I said I would get to is actually something that has stuck me as constantly troublesome in her videos, and especially this one. That is that, in her mind, she believes that the game should create a different set of rules just for the females in these games. Never mind the fact that they are a fair part of the setting and the game world, as well, but this goes somewhat back to a point I made earlier to individuality having zero discussion in any of these points. It seems as though she has a mind set of what would make a true female, and she believes that anyone that dares to change that one set image is automatically disregarded as being a sex object for a man's enjoyment and nothing more. Never does she bring up that women are just as free as men are to dress how they want, act how they want, and be who they want. Again, moral compasses may vary, but isn't that exactly the point here? That your moral compass might not be the same as someone else? And isn't that the whole idea behind being an individual and a free person? If you're not breaking any laws, and it's your own choice to pursue a particular lifestyle, then isn't that something that you would expect for someone to respect of you instead of being all up in your face about it?

But this is exactly what Anita continues to condemn, and it's a pattern in most of her videos. No woman is allowed to choose to dress sexy, or choose to want to be looked at, or choose to just have a good time, and men are never able to still respect females as human beings if those women actually chooses to use the freedoms that they, too, obtain by being human beings (never mind that she doesn't think serious homosexual relationships do not exist in many of these games, as we've seen that become a growing trend). To her, if you're a male, and you see a female showing off any skin (much less wearing a halter top, short skirts and sandals), then you're automatically going to think with your penis instead of your brain. And if you're a woman who chooses to show off skin, then you're viewed as nothing more than a sex object to her that would've never been able to choose that outfit on your own (a male made you put that on, or you believe you're nothing more than a sex object). Yes, I know what will be said: that she didn't come out and say this outright. But watch all of her videos side by side, as tedious as it may be, and try to tell me that pattern isn't prevalent and isn't implied in a strong way.

I'm sure many are familiar with Maxim magazine, and even though I am taken aback sometimes with them stereotyping what some men might be interested in, one thing has been made abundantly clear to the women they do photo shoots for: every woman that has ever done a photo shoot for them has always said that the guys that do those shoots are very respectful and are very kind to the women that they shoot, and keep in mind the types of poses and clothing on the females you usually see in said photo shoots for that magazine. That should tell you something about how men really are towards women. Of course, you're always going to have the bad guys in the bunch, but such is the way life is, and you cannot let the bad apples spoil the entire bunch. Keep in mind, too, that the woman in question doesn't necessarily have to do the shoot, and choose to go elsewhere (these are pretty famous women that, if treated badly, can choose to go elsewhere and not be hurt by it, at least not for very long).

The underlining factor here is that we should be used to the constant misinformation, conformation bias, and lack of proper research that we usually see in her videos. It's been something that she's done ever since she started on the videos. Problem is that these are things that neither she nor her hardcore supporters will never answer, nor will they even let it be brought up. They continue to believe that if she doesn't bring up these issues, then no one will, and any sort of civil discourse against how she brings up the argument is equated with vitriol, and is treated as such, trying to shut down any civil criticisms about what type of person she is, or if she's actually played these games, or if she's intentionally cherry picking with whatever epithet they try to use to stop such criticisms from being recognized as valid (thereby people never being able to identify themselves as either feminists or for proper representation of females in games without completely siding with how Anita describes where the problems lie). This is while she continues to berate anyone who dares to challenge her beliefs, and paints this image of what a woman that would be acceptable to her would look like, and stereotype how men would react to a scantily clad woman.

Then again, I doubt her hardcore supporters will care. As long as she's igniting the discussion, it's good in their eyes, regardless how vicious, toxic, and volatile said discussion becomes because of how she's conducted herself and how others have supported her throughout this course.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I have to call her out on one other point: Duke Nukem 3D's stripper joint scene is viewed on another TV Trope page: Epileptic Flashing Lights. There's a lot of strobe going on in the scenes she uses, to the point where whoever listed the game on that trope page called it out. Though I didn't think it was troubling, there's a reason why games warn about photo sensitivity. I don't want to sound overly sensitive about it, but it does seem awful to me that she warns about the graphic nudity and sexual situations and no warning about the DN3D scenes having those seizure-inducing lights included. Just something I thought should be addressed here.

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#261  Edited By soldierg654342

@truthtellah: @hailinel: @hunter5024: Man, I wish I was around for this discussion. I was at work and just got back. For the sake of clarification, when I posted that link, I was speaking much more broadly. Though I think that particular link is relevant to this discussion, it wasn't directed at any one person, group of people, or even topic, Sarkeesian or otherwise.

My main point with posting that link was the way I phrased it: People who know just enough to be dangerous to themselves shouting past each other. Some people are poorly educated or misinformed on feminist theory or the different schools of media criticism. For example, I have a hunch that Sarkeesian subscribes to one (or more) of the Post theories of criticism, which often reject context as a justification for objectionable content (see: #cancelcolbert). People often complain about her taking things out of context, but highly doubt that she's that dense. It's just her approach. Some people haven't played the games she discusses and are only going off a few screenshots and game-play videos and take brad swipes and the defenders and detractors.

The problem is people enter into these type discussions poorly equipped, using information vetted by others that they just assume is right because someone else said it. It may sound like I'm holding people to an unreasonably high standard, but if you are trying to solve the worlds problems, you need to put in a little more of the leg work.

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She makes some good points with certain games like GTA and Saints row, however saying that in all games the player is implicitly encouraged to mutilate human bodies? I don't know about most players, but I never feel like a game is encouraging me to kill women npc's. Especially that Dishonored clip. They absolutely do not encourage killing civilians, and you can do that to male civilians as well. She is fueling the "games are bad" fire and is just giving more ammunition to people looking to ban them. Her argument isn't productive its strictly offensive. Honestly it seems as if she does not even like playing video games. All that being said, I do agree that the portrayal of women in video games is absurd, yet I do not think it is deliberately malicious and to promote some sycophantic male dominance agenda.

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I cannot support Anita or her project at all. Between the things that have come out about her...

Her background is more in PR and marketing than feminism

She knew of 4chan’s existence prior to her Kickstarter and might have instigated /v/ into attacking her Kickstarter video

She stole game footage and fanart

She once said she was not a fan of video games and also added that she would love to play them if they weren't so violent and "gross"

...and the videos themselves...

Violence against women in video games lead to violence against women in real life (Damsel in Distress part 2)

The real reason why heroes go after their kidnapped/killed loved ones is because they were more or less emasculated and want to reclaim their manhood, and not to rescue/avenge said loved ones (Damsel in Distress part 2)

Male damsels aren't problematic, but female ones are (Damsel in Distress part 3)

Even satires and parodies of the damsel trope aren't okay because of "ironic sexism" (Damsel in Distress part 3)

She complains about "feminizing gender signifiers" in games while wearing the very same signifiers (Ms. Male Character)

...I just don't see why I should take her seriously. While not everything she brings up is unworthy of discussion, it becomes hard to discern what are actual issues and what aren't, when she turns out to be not entirely trustworthy.

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@herbiebug: re: Bayonetta. Ok, sure.

I haven't really played the game outside of a demo, so sorry for the ignorance and thanks for giving a good argument.

Even so, that's still a rare character to find in any medium, especially video games. So, that fact that she is one of the rare strong, intelligent, and resourceful females characters is sort of diminished by he fetishized appearance. I'm not saying we need to get ride of that kind of didactic character, but wouldn't it be nice to have another female character action game protagonist that doesn't get naked every time you land a special attack?

My original point was just that there needs to be more balance. My example didn't illustrate it well. I probably should have said "We can have our Devil May Cry's and our Gone Home's too." In other words, we can have our outrages insanity as well as our grounded thoughtfulness. We just need more of the latter. Right now, the best we have is, like you said, neutral characterizations and that's about it.

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@video_game_king: The thing is, she acted like the backlash to her project was completely unexpected. If she knew that 4chan had found her before the Kickstarter, why would she be surprised that she got that backlash?

This video was WAY more hostile than it needed to be. If you're talking about trying to convince others that they should see things from your point of view, this video only seems concerned with preaching to the choir.

But it does prove that Anita isn't being at all truthful when she suggests that she was surprised that her gaming video series would result in hateful personal attacks and threats. Perhaps more importantly, the video also hints at something else.

She once did allow comments on her you tube page, but moderated those comments, and specifically equated threats and harassment with 'anti-feminist comments.' That is, if you disagreed with her work based on her feminist viewpoint, you would never have your opposing viewpoint acknowledged, nor would she allow it to be heard.

That sounds very much like not being respectful of everyone's opinion. Can anyone who specifically considers themselves to be an Anita Sarkeesian supporter show me a link to any proof that she respects opposing viewpoints? So far, everything I've seen suggests the opposite. The closest we've come is the Spelunky example, which has been debunked in this thread twice now.

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@spaceinsomniac: I do not completely agree with the videos I have presented, or with their tone, but the facts presented in them are undeniable.

In my opinion, Anita purposefully manipulated the Kickstarter backlash, at least to some degree. She knew 4chan was aware of her, and even if she wasn't involved in provoking them to comment on her video, she certainly benefited from it. Her Kickstarter video came out on June 4, 2012, while the Kickstarter itself began on May 17, 2012, and would end on June 16. It should also be noted her Kickstarter video was the only time she allowed un-moderated comments; before, they had to be approved.

By the time the video came out, she had already received more than enough for her $6,000 asking price, and she reaped even more donations afterward, this time out of pity from all the vile comments she received. In the end, she earned nearly $160,000 for Tropes vs Women in Video Games.

Why wasn't the video available from the very start of her campaign? What purpose could she have in posting the video after she had enough money for her project? Why did she leave the comments un-moderated if she knew what the results would be? It feels too carefully orchestrated to be just a bunch of coincidences.

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AMyggen

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I really enjoyed this episode. And with that I'm out!

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jadegl

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#270  Edited By jadegl

Ok not to be a stick in the mud, but the thread is supposed to be about her video, not how her kickstarter went down etc. These issues have been talked about since the end of the kickstarter and it's the same old stuff. My thought is if she manipulated the situation or turned a tide in her favor, who cares? People will try to make a situation benefit them. Her video series was never advertised as charity and if I was in a similar situation, I would be trying to turn a net negative into a net positive. Do I condone it? Eh. I don't know. In the end I don't really care. I care about whether her backers are happy with her product. One backer spoke up already and said they were disappointed with the output. That influences my opinion more than a forum full of people with no vested interest in it to begin with.

I think we either need to get back on track or stop spinning our wheels. I've said the main thing I wanted to say earlier and it's been a similar thought that I've had throughout. The basic ideas are sound, the world could use more awesome women in games and more variety in their roles, but I don't think the conclusions that are eventually drawn out are. I don't think punching someone, man or woman, in a game equates to wanting to commit violence in real life. I don't think seeing naked women, strippers or prostitutes in games makes them devalued in real life. Men who hate woman hate them and learned that behavior long before they played GTA or God of War.

But I think we can do much better. Just because I don't believe game violence = real violence doesn't mean I enjoy seeing women in crappy roles either. I appreciate that games are trying to expand beyond cheap ploys at maturity. This video focuses on those tactics and I hope that shining a light on them will make people realize that there are better ways to bring grittiness and adult flavor to their worlds without resorting to tired storytelling tropes. Sure you can use them, but don't rely on them. Sure you can have strippers but balance it out with some actual interesting female npcs. It's about balance, not about removal.

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DifferenceEngine

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It's more than a bit unnerving that she's an instructor of actual for-credit classes at City College of San Francisco. If she's willing to mute opposing opinions on her videos, how well do you think she's going to handle her students in her speech classes?

Like others have said, it's not like the very subject that she brings up isn't worthy of discussion. It's more to the point that Sarkeesian couldn't have handled it any worse.