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#1 Posted by Ryanmc94 (50 posts) -

So I've got a friend who hates games. Apparently he is incapable of finding a single meaningful thing about them. He's one of those artsy types so I've decided to attempt that angle. If you had to convince someone that video games form an expressive medium what would it be?

I'm thinking I'll show off Braid. Thoughts?

#2 Posted by mylifeforAiur (3489 posts) -
#3 Posted by AlexanderSheen (5101 posts) -

Tell him to loose the fuck up.

#4 Posted by Humanity (10118 posts) -

I love video games but I don't think they're art.

#5 Posted by gamefreak9 (2419 posts) -

O man... that's tough. Candidates: Braid, Journey, Limbo, Lone Survivor, Superbrothers: sword and sorcery. Actually the latter... if you can get your friend to play one of those sprite sections but like RELAXED(not mass clicking) that's probably pretty convincing.

Braid art comes from the synergy of the story and gameplay, and that's not the easiest thing to show. Limbo is more about the black and white gore... maybe the story as well(girl at the end).

#6 Posted by Animasta (14727 posts) -

art is literally a meaningless word at this point

#7 Edited by L44 (575 posts) -

It's not that the medium is artistic it's the pieces themselves. I think this true with anything creative. It is what it is depending on who's eyes you see it in.

#8 Posted by Revan_NL (343 posts) -

Journey, The Unfinished Swan, Shadow of the Colossus, Okami etc

#9 Posted by Trainer_Red (314 posts) -

I second Journey and Limbo.

There is no greater moment in gaming when climbing that final snow bank with your faceless but very close and invested partner.

#10 Posted by Ares42 (2797 posts) -

If you want a great example of how games are art it's Dark Souls, but your friend isn't gonna get it. The way that game is crafted to create a very specific experience shows perfectly how actual gameplay done correctly can affect you on a deeper level and make a lasting impression on the player.

#11 Posted by MEATBALL (3495 posts) -

Madden 13

#12 Posted by SharkEthic (1064 posts) -

Dear Esther. If he's the artsy type, he'll eat that shit up. Plus, it's a fantastic experience!

#13 Posted by Vitor (2832 posts) -

@Ryanmc94: Journey. All the other games mentioned required a degree of video game literacy that it doesn't sound like your friend would have the patience to learn.

Journey is also shorter than the others (he's not going to sit through the entirety of shadow of the colossus) and just short enough to be able to be finished in one sitting.

#14 Edited by ArtisanBreads (3997 posts) -

@Animasta said:

art is literally a meaningless word at this point

This.

Any single game. By the fact that it is crafted, it is an art.

I went to school for 4 years and stared at a piece of modern art in front of the Fine Arts Center that was some weirdly shaped cube and an arch.

Video games have been art from day one. Some are shallow, some reach deeper meaning. This is no different than paintings or movies or any other thing that some say is "true art". Video games just haven't been around as long.

#15 Posted by natedawg_kz (231 posts) -

The Unfinished Swan

#16 Posted by gunninkr (147 posts) -
#17 Posted by LassieME (234 posts) -

Journey for this generation, Wind Waker from the previous gen.

#18 Posted by Empirepaintball (1397 posts) -

Journey or Limbo, both are masterpieces.

#19 Posted by Laiv162560asse (486 posts) -

I would say Ico, since compared to SotC it's shorter, more accessible to a newcomer and lacks typical HUD elements.

#20 Posted by ShiftyMagician (2133 posts) -

I get the basic jist of what you are actually asking and won't be one of those silly people that just have to either intentionally or unintentionally derail this thread.

I'd say Journey. Beautiful game that mixes gameplay, visuals and music together in a masterful way. It's a joy to watch as well as to play, especially when you reach the ending segments of the game.

#21 Posted by Fredddi43 (359 posts) -

Journey. Dust: An Elysian Tail. Braid. Pick one, they're all art. But for just one, I'd say Journey.

#22 Posted by believer258 (12207 posts) -

Nothing, really.

Not that "no games are art". I'm saying that someone like that will either come to their own realization or never do so at all. You could show them all of the artsy video games you want to, but he's never going to admit a change of opinion unless he comes to it himself.

Plus:

@Animasta said:

art is literally a meaningless word at this point

Yep. When you can just throw paint on a canvas and call it "art" in the same sense that you'd call something that took actual work like the Mona Lisa "art", then something's gone wrong. Or when you can say "video games are art" and include something like Call of Duty, then the whole word has lost meaning.

#23 Posted by johnaze (73 posts) -

I'd say... Shadow of the Colossus

#24 Posted by MildMolasses (3229 posts) -

How about you just let it go. I doubt he's asking around an Internet forum for a definitive piece of art that he can show you to prove that games have no worth

#25 Posted by bananaz (259 posts) -

Please give up, he won't care. My brother hated games too. Then he started asking me about games a few years ago. He doesn't have to like the same things as you, leave him alone. He'll ask you about games when he wants to, not when you want him to.

#26 Posted by Superfriend (1587 posts) -

Sorry, I know the thing about every thread on the internet eventually devolving to this... BUT

Discussing what is art and what is not is such a freaking nazi thing to do.

I´d say if something was made by a human being who poured a part of their heart and soul into it, regardless of what it looks/sounds like.. it IS art. You can definitely debate about taste and "value" but that is about it. Everything else makes you Roger Ebert.

And you do NOT want to be Roger Ebert.

Oh and the answer is Geometry Wars Retro Evolved 2.

#27 Posted by ShockD (2421 posts) -

He's hopeless. Kill him and bury the body.

#28 Edited by Zippedbinders (1034 posts) -

@ArtisanBreads said:

@Animasta said:

art is literally a meaningless word at this point

This.

Any single game. By the fact that it is crafted, it is an art.

I went to school for 4 years and stared at a piece of modern art in front of the Fine Arts Center that was some weirdly shaped cube and an arch.

Video games have been art from day one. Some are shallow, some reach deeper meaning. This is no different than paintings or movies or any other thing that some say is "true art". Video games just haven't been around as long.

The minute Marcel Duchamp flipped a goddamn urinal over and called it "art" is when that word became meaningless to me.

The best definition I ever got from my 4 years of art history is that "art is art if the creator says it is". It actually doesn't matter if mass markets agree or disagree, if Jon Blow decides Braid isn't art then its not art. If Terry Cavanagh decides that VVVVVV is art, then VVVVVV is art. Granted, ownership becomes muddled when dealing with large groups of people. I can't find the exact quote from Penny Arcade, but it was along the lines of "How can the product of dozens of artists making art for years NOT be art?" You have painters, musicians, sculptors, writers, etc, all working on one product. How the fuck can the end result NOT be art? Unless, of course, they decide it isn't.

#29 Posted by prestonhedges (1961 posts) -

Look, guys, just because a game looks vaguely like old Japanese scroll art, doesn't mean it's gonna impress anyone. And Journey would probably bore him to hell.

#30 Posted by TaliciaDragonsong (8607 posts) -

Art is too personal. What some define as art others will never accept.

#31 Posted by GetEveryone (4458 posts) -

Why must you qualify your like for games and convert him?

Dude has a different opinion, and even if he's condescending towards your past-time you shouldn't feel the need to justify yourself to him. The mere fact that it is one of the 10 most quickly developing industries in the world shows that they are moving into the mainstream.

Taking the art angle is pretty skewed. I was reading an article, I can't remember which exactly, but it was discussing why we need games to be accepted, and as art no less, and that the idea was bizarre.

Even as a pretty vocal proponent of games, they are often ludicrous and rarely art.

I mean, they involve art and design aspects much in the same way as everything else; they are a craft, but the term art itself is pretty nebulous, if not useless, so it seems an irrelevant point to argue.

#32 Posted by Sinusoidal (1810 posts) -

What do you mean by "artsy"? I've noticed "artsy" people tend to be into whatever it is they're into, and unwilling to even try to find meaning in anything else. Your best bet to convince him that games have any redeeming value at all would be to try and relate one to whatever it is he's interested in. There's plenty of interactive multimedia art projects online that blur the lines between "art" and gaming. If he's strictly into art for art's sake, those might be a good place to start.

#33 Edited by AndrewB (7691 posts) -

I don't think you need to point to any specific game. If you can't see video games to be art, you have an oddview of the definition of art, in my opinion. Braid is certainly one game which makes a statement, but I'm not sure any modern game doesn't at least make the attempt. I mean, even in "traditional art" there are attempts and successes/failures.

@TaliciaDragonsong said:

Art is too personal. What some define as art others will never accept.

Ultimately this is true.

#34 Posted by Tackchevy (266 posts) -

There are two good answers here:

1) If your goal was to "win" an art argument, your best bet is Journey. It is both bizarre, stylish, and beautiful, all of which art-heads would appreciate. More meaningfully, it is a compact experience designed to be comparable to film. If someone's wall of bias can be overcome by any game, this is probably it for the time being. There are plenty of games that I think probably would score better overall as complete art, but this is the best "weapon" in said debate.

2) Someone mentioned this above, but I am a DMS/DKS lover too. There is a deep, dark, uncompromising vision in those games that will disturb you if you play for a while and really let it soak. I actually just replayed Demon's Souls over the last week or so, and some of the imagery and scenes in that are really haunting. I checked out the execution grounds for the first time. It was really messed up.

#35 Posted by impartialgecko (1689 posts) -

Bastion for me. Makes the games as art argument while not forgetting to be a great-playing game.

#36 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@believer258 said:

@Animasta said:

art is literally a meaningless word at this point

Yep. When you can just throw paint on a canvas and call it "art" in the same sense that you'd call something that took actual work like the Mona Lisa "art", then something's gone wrong. Or when you can say "video games are art" and include something like Call of Duty, then the whole word has lost meaning.

A combination of connotations (high and low art and the smashing of those barriers) and art politics. Hell, a lot of art is actually criticism of the conception of something as being art. That's the entire principle behind that urinal thing (Duchamp's something something something). Anyway, time for an actual answer instead of whatever the hell this is:

#37 Posted by Brodehouse (10131 posts) -

I refuse to play because your friend is an idiot. He's probably one of those that thinks art is purely passive; "you can't use art". Games are little different than architecture, which is absolutely art. Anything that requires abstract thinking, craftsmanship, and creativity is art. Cooking is art. Industrial design is art. Improvisational jazz is art. Standup comedy is art.

Fine, I pick Asteroids.

#38 Posted by dabe (299 posts) -

You can't prove video games are art to someone.

#39 Posted by Kidavenger (3629 posts) -

The Walking Dead this story is more art than game, it inspires thought and emotions.

#40 Edited by mnzy (2925 posts) -

What people are pretty much asking for is expression within the gameplay. That's almost impossible if you ask me and there are only very very few games who even try that. Maybe Spec Ops: The Line could fall under that category?

#41 Posted by DarthOrange (3908 posts) -

Go tell him to go check out the iam8bit website. Or tell him to go eat shit. Either one would do.

#42 Posted by Kerned (1169 posts) -

Maybe he just doesn't like games. That's ok.

#43 Posted by believer258 (12207 posts) -

@Video_Game_King said:

@believer258 said:

@Animasta said:

art is literally a meaningless word at this point

Yep. When you can just throw paint on a canvas and call it "art" in the same sense that you'd call something that took actual work like the Mona Lisa "art", then something's gone wrong. Or when you can say "video games are art" and include something like Call of Duty, then the whole word has lost meaning.

A combination of connotations (high and low art and the smashing of those barriers) and art politics. Hell, a lot of art is actually criticism of the conception of something as being art. That's the entire principle behind that urinal thing (Duchamp's something something something). Anyway, time for an actual answer instead of whatever the hell this is:

Why is that thirteen year old girl wearing what looks like two tied-together pillowcases?

#44 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@believer258:

Because I've hated what the fanbase has done to this game ever since the phrase "yaoi scene" became relevant to this game.

#45 Posted by DarthOrange (3908 posts) -
@believer258 said: 

@Animasta said:

art is literally a meaningless word at this point

Yep. When you can just throw paint on a canvas and call it "art" in the same sense that you'd call something that took actual work like the Mona Lisa "art", then something's gone wrong. Or when you can say "video games are art" and include something like Call of Duty, then the whole word has lost meaning.

Yup. Roy Lichtenstein was the last great artist the world had. Fuck anyone who says differently! Also one of you artsy bastards tell me how Hans Haacke is anything more then an asshole.
#46 Posted by casper_ (908 posts) -

all it takes to be considered art is to make something with the intention of it being art or to have other people decide that something is art.

so the point its not worth thinking about.

i think the MOMA has a permanent video game collection now with pac man, portal, dwarf fortress etc

#47 Posted by believer258 (12207 posts) -

@Video_Game_King said:

@believer258:

Because I've hated what the fanbase has done to this game ever since the phrase "yaoi scene" became relevant to this game.

You know, you and Jay kind of had me a bit interested in this game for a little while there. Now I'm not.

#48 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@believer258:

Because of the fanbase, right?

#49 Posted by BrockNRolla (1694 posts) -

@ArtisanBreads said:

Video games have been art from day one. Some are shallow, some reach deeper meaning. This is no different than paintings or movies or any other thing that some say is "true art". Video games just haven't been around as long.

Truth.

Also, if your friend "hates" games, they aren't going to receptive to any message one might find within one. This has nothing to do with whether not video games are art. Show them whatever game you want, they aren't going to get it if they aren't willing to get it.

#50 Posted by believer258 (12207 posts) -

@Video_Game_King said:

@believer258:

Because of the fanbase, right?

I don't really want anything associated with yaoi.