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#101 Posted by WarlordPayne (694 posts) -

All of you people complaining about this are fucking ridiculous, especially anyone that is subscribed to this site.

Penny Arcade is asking for donations so they don't have to deal with ads any more and giving away silly little things to the people who donate money, and you're all acting like they're the god damned devil.

Giant Bomb holds content hostage and scares its users with threats of the site losing all integrity if the fans don't throw money at them year after year, even after they used those subscription numbers as a selling point to a huge corporation.

#102 Posted by Tylea002 (2295 posts) -

The ads aren't the reason this pisses me off, it's the podcast. It's obviously cheaper to produce than the cut videos, and was always more popular, but they got rid of it, and now it's being held behind a wall to the tune of a collective $825k? Fuck that.

#103 Posted by tyty (18 posts) -
@Tylea002

The ads aren't the reason this pisses me off, it's the podcast. It's obviously cheaper to produce than the cut videos, and was always more popular, but they got rid of it, and now it's being held behind a wall to the tune of a collective $825k? Fuck that.

Sometimes things cost things.
#104 Edited by Snigs (52 posts) -

In general I have to admit I'm kind of ashamed of the GB community for how incredibly poor they are reacting to this Kickstarter. If you want to react to this as a "they want $1 Million for Adblock?" Go right ahead, but you're missing the point entirely. They're asking their fans, actually the Internet at large, if they'd like to support 14 hard working friends in they're insane quest to provide a comic and other fun stuff to... the Internet. At $250k they get to remove the most sought after ad space on thier site and get to free up the corporate workload by the man hours that that single ad space requires (which ends up being more than a typical site because of their vetting process) and those hours get spent on other projects they want to do. If and hopefully when they reach $1 Million it means that they don't need to concentrate any time on making sure that they're bring the right ads to the table. That means more content. More Lookouts (which is awesome BTW, it's why the Lookouts symbol is my avatar). More Automata. Hell, if they reach the $1.4 million stretch goal I wouldn't be surprised if they undertake another PAX, or attempt to remove adverts from PAX all together. That's the project they're undertaking. Trying to change their site to something that is entirely dedicated to creating content for the sake of creating content, not for the sake of selling an ad.

Imagine what would happen to Giant Bomb if they were given $1.4 million to run the site for a year? Endurance Runs seem suddenly less daunting. Dave would be able to work on the site and not worry about making advertisements work. You be able to show your friends an ad free site and TNT would be available to everyone. They wouldn't have to answer to CBS. (Hell they answer to CBS so they don't have to spend man hours on advertising deals.) Bombast around the world. Ect. This also shows why their rewards aren't really rewards, if the project is funded what they would produce with the money is the main reward for, but since Kickstarter is Kickstarter they have rewards that won't spend the money they'd receive. Double Fine spent $300,000 on making and sending out the T-Shirts from their Kickstarter, Penny Arcade wants to avoid that. When it comes to the $500 retweets and $300 following they're leveraging the pull that they have on twitter. What happens now if PA tweets about a Kickstarter or an indie game? People look at it and pay attention. That's worth something.

In the end if you like PA the way it is, or just don't care about them, you don't need to donate, but please pause and think about what they're really trying to do before dumping on it and immediately dismiss it as a money grab. They know that Kickstarter is the newest fountain spam on the Internet and have said as much in the comic, but it came to the point where they felt obligated to see if it'd work. To ask the fans if they'd be willing to sign them on for a 1 year contract to make their comic and more. How different would Giant Bomb be, for all of us, if Jeff and the crew thought that premium memberships wouldn't have worked?

#105 Posted by Karkarov (3000 posts) -

@Snigs said:

In general I have to admit I'm kind of ashamed of the GB community for how incredibly poor they are reacting to this Kickstarter. If you want to react to this as a "they want $1 Million for Adblock?" Go right ahead, but you're missing the point entirely. They're asking their fans, actually the Internet at large, if they'd like to support 14 hard working friends in they're insane quest to provide a comic and other fun stuff to... the Internet.

You bought their crap hook line and sinker didn't you? Dude, if they were your "friend" they wouldn't be selling things on kickstarter like "retweets", Facebook friend invites, and Tycho naming your dog. There are hundreds of people on the internet doing just what your above sentence describes every day and they don't get jack for it. Penny Arcade is not your friend, they are 14 hard working people running a business.

#106 Posted by NekuCTR (1663 posts) -

@WarlordPayne said:

All of you people complaining about this are fucking ridiculous, especially anyone that is subscribed to this site.

Penny Arcade is asking for donations so they don't have to deal with ads any more and giving away silly little things to the people who donate money, and you're all acting like they're the god damned devil.

Giant Bomb holds content hostage and scares its users with threats of the site losing all integrity if the fans don't throw money at them year after year, even after they used those subscription numbers as a selling point to a huge corporation.

The problem isn't that they are asking for money, or trying for a new model, the problem is that they are using Kickstarter. The site was created for the purpose of kick starting projects not for conveniently testing interest in a business model. Giantbomb made a leap of faith when they started the subscription program. PA is playing it safe, and just throwing the idea out. If they had started their own donation link I'd be fine with it. they cold have even used the rewards concept, and everything just not on Kickstarter, it's already overused enough without this misguided venture clogging up the front page.

Also, dude, if nobody had bought into the subscriptions GB wold have had ads anyways, and would never have made the heaps of content for subs that everyone enjoys, and you can get all for $5 measly dollars if you want it so bad. The only content they are "holding hostage" is the stuff they wouldn't have made without the extra investment. If you are don't like their business, and their public demeanor you should probably try another review site because that's what they're all about.

#107 Edited by TheMasterDS (2017 posts) -

It's the Million Dollar Button! Guys, remember the Million Dollar Button! From one of the Radio Shows/Chats With Dave & Alexis? That's what Penny Arcade is doing! Except all the money comes from multiple people.

This makes some sense I think. Penny Arcade would rather be in business with its users than with what it covers. Giant Bomb felt the same way. Penny Arcade is going about it a little differently, letting people give what they feel and not offering those donating exclusive content, just offering them more content that everyone will be able to get. It's a different model, one in which those contributing are doing so completely for altruistic reasons with no promise of exclusive Jar Times.

#108 Posted by StarvingGamer (8028 posts) -
@Paul_Is_Drunk Hence the clearly stated goal of removing advertisements leading to an eventual end product of a redesigned web site. Completely in keeping with the idea of Kickstarter.

Or are you going to argue that additional implied benefits beyond the scope of the actual project should disqualify it? Because if you are, we might as well shut Kickstarter down right now.
#109 Posted by Snigs (52 posts) -

@NekuCTR said:

The problem isn't that they are asking for money, or trying for a new model, the problem is that they are using Kickstarter. The site was created for the purpose of kick starting projects not for conveniently testing interest in a business model. Giantbomb made a leap of faith when they started the subscription program. PA is playing it safe, and just throwing the idea out. If they had started their own donation link I'd be fine with it. they cold have even used the rewards concept, and everything just not on Kickstarter, it's already overused enough without this misguided venture clogging up the front page.

I don't think a donation link with reward tiers would have worked. There are a lot of things that would have needed to do, making a donation page and then making sure everything connected to it works... costs money. Kickstarter cost only as much as the video you put up and is a reputable site that does what it says it will with the money it gets you by acting as a intermediary. Even when they originally accepted donations they used an Amazon service to accept donations.

When it comes to the "purpose of Kickstarter" this type of project isn't new and saying that kickstarter shouldn't be used as a way to test interest in a business model is self-contradictory, Kickstarter is a new buisness model based off of interest. You propose something that you're willing to do and ask the internet if they can pay for it. The entire site is based off of user interest. If anything this is what Kickstarter represents, the ability to make a living directly off of the people who consume your content or participate in your project through the internet.

#110 Posted by Viking_Funeral (1738 posts) -

@StarvingGamer said:

@Paul_Is_Drunk Hence the clearly stated goal of removing advertisements leading to an eventual end product of a redesigned web site. Completely in keeping with the idea of Kickstarter. Or are you going to argue that additional implied benefits beyond the scope of the actual project should disqualify it? Because if you are, we might as well shut Kickstarter down right now.

That's the thing. The intangible benefits are not clear, and there is no evidence that they have anything to do with the advertising of the Penny Arcade website. As we speak, they have a list of stretch goals reaching $1.4 million, and of the 13 goals listed, only 3 are related to the advertising that currently supports Penny Arcade. 8 are "???," or unknown. One is a 6 page comic strip, and another is a podcast. Given the reach of the 3 stated goals related to the advertising, as in the 5th to last goal at $999,999 is the total removal of advertisements, the unknown goals are likely in the vain of more media production, something which they already do and are quite successful at. They are literally raising funds to do more of what they already do. There is nothing to kickstart here.

I don't take umbrage with the fact that they are having a fund drive; I take issue with the fact that they are using a website designed for launching independent projects by cash-strapped organizations or individuals to hold a fund drive for massively successful business. By doing such an act, they appear to be hoping to capitalize on the success and word-of-mouth of Kickstarter to support their own current success. There is no reason they couldn't do a fund drive independent of Kickstarter, as they have done in the past and do concurrently. This is all regardless of the fact that they are raising funds to replace existing funds.

#111 Posted by WarlordPayne (694 posts) -

@NekuCTR said:

Also, dude, if nobody had bought into the subscriptions GB wold have had ads anyways, and would never have made the heaps of content for subs that everyone enjoys, and you can get all for $5 measly dollars if you want it so bad. The only content they are "holding hostage" is the stuff they wouldn't have made without the extra investment. If you are don't like their business, and their public demeanor you should probably try another review site because that's what they're all about.

Bullshit. They made TANG and did the Endurance Run before subscriptions, why would they just stop making any new features all of a sudden? What do you think they would have done with all their time without the subscription money, just sit around with their thumbs up their asses? Hell, they did the flight club thing in everything but name after the subscriptions had started then decided to wall it off afterwards.

As for the ads, I've had no problem with any of their ads outside of the volume being dramatically louder than their video content.

#112 Posted by Levio (1784 posts) -

I hope people notice that in order to get rid of all advertisements on the website, the kickstarter has to reach $1 million.

I can't believe their website earns $1 million in advertising annually... I wonder if anyone has the numbers on this?

#113 Posted by SlightConfuse (3963 posts) -
@Levio it's not 1 million in ads it's 1 million to run the company for a year. The ads are a portion of total revenue
#114 Posted by Arbie (1449 posts) -

Wow, I had no idea how much these things cost to run. And $250k for an advertising space? Wah! I suddenly feel like the kid who thinks holidays cost 25p!

I have no problem with them asking for donations. It's a choice whether or not to give them money on kickstarter. I don't see why Yoshi had to be picked on though. ='[

#115 Posted by Kaiserhawk (62 posts) -

I'm not 100% sure if this is serious or if it's some kind of statement.

#116 Posted by Carryboy (632 posts) -

Terrible, glad i don't visit there site.

#117 Posted by rmanthorp (3881 posts) -

They made fun of themselves so that makes it okay to then do it right? Just like the best self referential video games, that's always my favourite!

Moderator
#118 Posted by SgtGrumbles (1024 posts) -

If you're not donating why do you give a shit?

#119 Posted by Vexxan (4616 posts) -

@Bocam said:

I don't see how this is a "project" that needs to be Kickstarted.

I agree, it seems ridiculous to me to start a project on Kickstarter with the intent to get rid of ads from a website. Maybe they should have used something else than Kickstarter, but hey, that seems to be the trend lately.

#120 Posted by Jack268 (3387 posts) -

$500 for a guy to retweet me? Where do I sign up?

#121 Posted by AngelN7 (2970 posts) -

@ModerateViolence said:

If you're not donating why do you give a shit?

Exactly! what does it matter to people who do not care about the ads on the site or doesn't care about PA at all.

#122 Posted by Brodehouse (9614 posts) -

This is the exact reaction when the subscription model appeared for Giant Bomb. It's people upset that the content producers have the _gall_ to associate their content with a value.

This is actually ethically better since the content that gets produced by giving them money will be available to anyone. But of course now we hear it's only a 'value' if the content is locked away.

#123 Posted by Marokai (2811 posts) -
@tyty said:
@Tylea002

The ads aren't the reason this pisses me off, it's the podcast. It's obviously cheaper to produce than the cut videos, and was always more popular, but they got rid of it, and now it's being held behind a wall to the tune of a collective $825k? Fuck that.

Sometimes things cost things.
This is one of the worst comments in comment history, and the best thing about it, is that it has almost nothing to do with the point of the post it was responding to.
#124 Posted by Marokai (2811 posts) -
@cmblasko said:

I'm not sure why they didn't just go the paid subscriber route and offer premium content. Seems to work for Giant Bomb.

It worked so well that Whiskey Media was dismantled and Giant Bomb was sold off to a megacorporation.
#125 Posted by Slaker117 (4835 posts) -

I find the concept of the Twitter rewards pretty funny.

#126 Posted by fisk0 (3862 posts) -

I'm all for them trying out different methods of funding their site, Internet display ad revenue is in a steady decline, but as others have pointed out, Kickstarter isn't for these kinds of fund drives. An NPR/Pacifica radio/whatever style fund drive on their web site, or going with an Giant Bomb style subscription model would've been preferable imho.

Buy hey - if people want to support their Kickstarter, let them. Personally, this isn't the kind of stuff I go to Kickstarter for.

#127 Posted by Imsorrymsjackson (855 posts) -

Adblocker plus is doing enough for me, ill save my money I think.

#128 Edited by Athadam (673 posts) -

Have people seem to have forgotten the reason why Giantbomb was created in the first place? It was to get away from advertisement pressure affecting editorial work. 
 
Same concept here guys. PA wants to get rid of advertisement money and be entirely funded by fans - and according to them, that'll help them release more content without ad pressure. While I agree that this Kickstarter isn't normal and seems shady, but it's because PA is running this as more of a "donation" page rather than an actual kickstart.   
 
Yeah, this bends the very definition kickstarter. Yeah, the rewards seem too extreme. But let me get this clear, PA is in no wrong here. They're simply a company that wants to be entirely fan funded rather than requiring advertisement revenue. They've done this before and succeeded - so it shouldn't be a shocker. If it doesn't work out, then PA will simply keep their current business model. 

#129 Posted by cmblasko (1133 posts) -

@Marokai said:

@cmblasko said:

I'm not sure why they didn't just go the paid subscriber route and offer premium content. Seems to work for Giant Bomb.

It worked so well that Whiskey Media was dismantled and Giant Bomb was sold off to a megacorporation.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the assumption that the Whiskey Media sale was the result of them receiving lucrative offers from prospective buyers rather than a case of the company falling into financial hardship. In any case, if the subscription model kept GB going for 3-4 years then I don't see why it wouldn't work for PA, especially considering their large and dedicated fan base who already shell out loads of money for PA-related merchandise and events.

#130 Posted by Marokai (2811 posts) -
@cmblasko: This is getting off topic, but whatevs; They received offers, but they were also actively shopping around to sell. If you listen to the Gamespot video with Jeff that was made immediately after the announcement, he talks about how Whiskey higher-ups came to him and asked about his concerns with CBSi, among another places, when it came to where they could sell Whiskey Media. Such efforts were also apparently in the works for at least a handful of months before they were finalized. I'm not sure how long your time here has been, but the subscription model was only introduced in September 2010. As Whiskey was dismantled and sold in just March of this year, and legaleering was going on in the background for months, at most optimistically you could say that the subscription model held them above water for a year and ahalf while they made efforts to sell their business. If they were making a profit, it was, apparently, not worth it from an investor's perspective. (And to be honest, considering how well Whiskey Media was managed all that time, I doubt they made much of a profit if a profit at all in the grand scheme of things.)
#131 Posted by GetEveryone (4455 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

@GetEveryone said:

@Brodehouse said:

I want Jeff Gerstmann responsible to his audience for his pay, not his overlord.

...but Jeff doesn't own Giantbomb.

Exactly. CBS Interactive does. And it matters more that Jeff (and everyone else) make them happy rather than us. And that's suboptimal.

...but he's never owned Giantbomb.

#132 Posted by tyty (18 posts) -
@Marokai
@tyty said:
@Tylea002

The ads aren't the reason this pisses me off, it's the podcast. It's obviously cheaper to produce than the cut videos, and was always more popular, but they got rid of it, and now it's being held behind a wall to the tune of a collective $825k? Fuck that.

Sometimes things cost things.
This is one of the worst comments in comment history, and the best thing about it, is that it has almost nothing to do with the point of the post it was responding to.
@Marokai
I was trying to articulate that bitching that bringing the podcast back costs 825k is dumb. It compleaty disregards the other reward tiers. And that sometimes, you need to pay for things. Also, do you want them in business with the users, or ad buyers?
#133 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7054 posts) -

This is a stupid thing to get up-in-arms over. They've already contacted the Kickstarter people to make sure they're not breaking any rules (so those couple of you saying they are should probably stop) and they did this before when the dot com bubble burst and advertisers dumped them. If you don't like it, don't support it but I like the idea of removing advertisers from the equation for a year so they don't need to worry about offending said advertisers and so they can make more content. But I suppose the Internet needed another bullshit controversy.

#134 Posted by dudeglove (7688 posts) -

wtf. AdBlock + assholes. Plus I've never found their ads to be obnoxious anyway.

#135 Posted by coakroach (2488 posts) -

Right now the only ad I see on their site is for their game.

This is a bad idea.

#136 Posted by Brendan (7696 posts) -

@Gamer_152 said:

I'm surprised that people are so mad over this. Penny Arcade are a tiny company who has the task of holding an enormous convention two times a year, putting out a web comic and article every week, hosting a bunch of videos, putting out an editorial article and other news items every day, and more. I imagine that with all that, they have operating costs that can't be entirely covered by sales of t-shirts and PAX passes, and they've had fans repeatedly tell them they want to support the company beyond these means. They say that they have not been influenced by advertisers and are letting people contribute to an ad-free version of the site if they want, but leaving all content open to all users even if they don't want to. I don't see how they're the big bad guys in this situation, what they're doing sounds pretty reasonable to me.

You may think the gaps between rewards are slightly off and that seems like a fair criticism, but again, if you donate or how much you donate is entirely voluntary, and I can see why they'd want to give those generous enough to contribute large amounts real bang for their buck.

Yo, I got news for you. The twosome behind Penny Arcade are really wealthy. Parts of this comment make it seem like you haven't seen the videos on their site that show their large and expensive homes, their expensive cars, and the few times that they've openly said that they are really wealthy as a consequence of the success of their website. I'm not trying to say that I've got a problem with this, but that this Kickstarter is not trying to cover expenses that their struggling small time operation can't handle. Also, I'm almost certain that their little office does not handle all of PAX. I'm almost certain that there is a large team that doesn't even necessarily all work in that office that works on PAX all year.

I say these things with a small amount of sarcasm laced into them because it seems pretty clear that you are commenting on a website that you know nothing about.

#137 Posted by J12088 (437 posts) -

I'd rather giantbomb did it that way than lock a bunch of content behind a pay wall and have a bunch of elitists running around the site bragging cause they've got a stupid medal by there name.

#138 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -

Well, I lost a bunch of respect for Penny Arcade a long-ass time ago. It's nice to see my view of them be vindicated over and over, and over, and over again.

#139 Posted by Hunter5024 (5546 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

This is the exact reaction when the subscription model appeared for Giant Bomb. It's people upset that the content producers have the _gall_ to associate their content with a value. This is actually ethically better since the content that gets produced by giving them money will be available to anyone. But of course now we hear it's only a 'value' if the content is locked away.

Except Giantbomb was a very small corporation who in return for peoples subscription fees was offering premium values and content as a reward. Penny-Arcade's rewards are a joke (literally), their business is huge and booming, and they're not asking us to subscribe they are asking us to donate. If they were offering some sort of subscription for a tangible reward it might be more acceptable.

#140 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7054 posts) -

@J12088 said:

I'd rather giantbomb did it that way than lock a bunch of content behind a pay wall and have a bunch of elitists running around the site bragging cause they've got a stupid medal by there name.

In the near 2 years since the premium stuff went live, the only time I've EVER seen this is in a transparently joking manner.

#141 Posted by ajamafalous (11863 posts) -

This is not what Kickstarter is for. I'm actually pretty appalled that they'd do this.

#142 Posted by J12088 (437 posts) -

@MariachiMacabre said:

@J12088 said:

I'd rather giantbomb did it that way than lock a bunch of content behind a pay wall and have a bunch of elitists running around the site bragging cause they've got a stupid medal by there name.

In the near 2 years since the premium stuff went live, the only time I've EVER seen this is in a transparently joking manner.

Really? Cause anytime anyone questions if something should be premium content or not there met with a bunch of people telling them to get a job.

#143 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7054 posts) -

@J12088 said:

@MariachiMacabre said:

@J12088 said:

I'd rather giantbomb did it that way than lock a bunch of content behind a pay wall and have a bunch of elitists running around the site bragging cause they've got a stupid medal by there name.

In the near 2 years since the premium stuff went live, the only time I've EVER seen this is in a transparently joking manner.

Really? Cause anytime anyone questions if something should be premium content or not there met with a bunch of people telling them to get a job.

Considering how little premium content there is now anyway, it's safe to say those people are just being a bit dickish in their desire to have a reason to pay for content.

#144 Posted by Humanity (8835 posts) -

@J12088 said:

@MariachiMacabre said:

@J12088 said:

I'd rather giantbomb did it that way than lock a bunch of content behind a pay wall and have a bunch of elitists running around the site bragging cause they've got a stupid medal by there name.

In the near 2 years since the premium stuff went live, the only time I've EVER seen this is in a transparently joking manner.

Really? Cause anytime anyone questions if something should be premium content or not there met with a bunch of people telling them to get a job.

I'd honestly rather just have GB get some more ads cause Adblock just takes care of that anyway.

#145 Posted by Blannir (243 posts) -

People don't like the ads on PA so PA has given them the ability to get rid of them, what's the big deal? If people choose to throw their money at this so be it, don't blame the folks who run PA.