#1 Posted by Iron_Tool (209 posts) -

Wow, now he is on the receiving end of the interwebs wrath!

http://kotaku.com/5891178/when-you-say-japanese-games-just-suck

#2 Posted by Iron_Tool (209 posts) -

For the ones who don't know, Phil Fish is the developer for the long awaited and highly anticipated indi game "FEZ"

#3 Posted by Hailinel (22666 posts) -

He's entitled to his opinion, but he chose the worst time and manner to express it.

#4 Posted by Animasta (14455 posts) -

funny part is he later said on his twitter it was most, not all; despite the fact he did say all in the panel.

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#5 Posted by alternate (2654 posts) -

I can't believe the hissy fit some are having, e.g. on a "popular internet message board".

Sounds like he is rude (not the first incident) and was a jerk to the dev who asked him a question but a bit of non-story. People are equating it to the fighting game mess. Yeah, saying japanese games suck is just the same as making jokes about rape.

#6 Posted by MikkaQ (10224 posts) -

"'Has Canada ever had a famous game or game maker?' wrote a 2ch commenter."

This part made me laugh openly. People will say anything about things they know nothing about.

Fish was crass and could have worded that a little more diplomatically, but that's indie devs for you. Not exactly media trained, but that's kinda the charm.

#7 Posted by Breadfan (6586 posts) -

Well played pun, sir.

#8 Posted by Sammo21 (3015 posts) -

Phil Fish should worry about finishing a game that was supposed to be released 2 years ago and that's taken 6 years to make. Until he can do that he doesn't need to be criticizing anyone.

#9 Posted by TheSouthernDandy (3624 posts) -

Yup. French canadians are jerks. Sounds about right.

#10 Posted by bvilleneuve (265 posts) -

I dislike most Japanese games. Their design principles, their plotlines, their aesthetics, most of it just doesn't click with me most of the time, even though a couple of my favorite games come from Japan. "Your games just suck" is Phil Fish's way of saying "I don't care for most of your games, even though I recognize that they have their audience." I'm not saying Fish was trolling or anything like that, I'm just saying sometimes when people say things you have to think about what they were really saying instead of immediately jumping on the righteous indignation train.

#11 Posted by MordeaniisChaos (5730 posts) -

They are typically full of all the worst things in video games. Repetition within a series, not killing a series when it should be, generic character designs (seriously, there are about 3 looks for 90% of games that come out of the east) and ancient design philosophy. Not to mention the bullshit that the few good developers pull by putting ONE DUDES NAME ON IT.

#12 Posted by Hailinel (22666 posts) -
@MordeaniisChaos

They are typically full of all the worst things in video games. Repetition within a series, not killing a series when it should be, generic character designs (seriously, there are about 3 looks for 90% of games that come out of the east) and ancient design philosophy. Not to mention the bullshit that the few good developers pull by putting ONE DUDES NAME ON IT.

All of that could equally be said about western games.
#13 Edited by Animasta (14455 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

@MordeaniisChaos

They are typically full of all the worst things in video games. Repetition within a series, not killing a series when it should be, generic character designs (seriously, there are about 3 looks for 90% of games that come out of the east) and ancient design philosophy. Not to mention the bullshit that the few good developers pull by putting ONE DUDES NAME ON IT.

All of that could equally be said about western games.

yep.

also phil fish should really release his game before insulting an entire nation's game developers

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#14 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

I like that when someone asks him a question he answers. I don't agree with him but I like that he is willing to give a genuine answer.

#15 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -
@MordeaniisChaos

They are typically full of all the worst things in video games. Repetition within a series, not killing a series when it should be, generic character designs (seriously, there are about 3 looks for 90% of games that come out of the east) and ancient design philosophy. Not to mention the bullshit that the few good developers pull by putting ONE DUDES NAME ON IT.

Same can be said about our games.
#16 Posted by louiedog (2330 posts) -

Whether you agree or disagree that there's a problem with the overall product that the video game industry in Japan is cranking out I think it's hard to defend the way he made his statements. People need to learn to use some tact and express themselves without being douchebags.

#17 Posted by BabyChooChoo (4035 posts) -

I think Jim Sterling made a great point when he said he's just saying what people on forums say all the time, but he just fucked up with the way he said it...

Anywho, as someone who enjoys Japanese games, I will gladly admit a lot of them are just fucking stuck in the past. Pointleess convoluted game mechanics, horrible tutorials or just none at all, generic stories, generic characters, horrible dialouge, etc. It's a sad trend that also continues to plague anime, which I also am a fan of. For every great anime, there's twenty full of horrible cliches and lack of originality that completely ruin the image for the rest of the industry.

#18 Edited by Delta_Ass (3231 posts) -

I don't have any Japanese games in my current collection, so I'd say he's pretty much correct.
 
Of course, I'd probably use more tact if some Japanese developer asked me face to face.

#19 Posted by alternate (2654 posts) -

@Sammo21 said:

Phil Fish should worry about finishing a game that was supposed to be released 2 years ago and that's taken 6 years to make. Until he can do that he doesn't need to be criticizing anyone.

are you Jeff's secret alt account? :D

Jeff Gerstmann jeffgerstmann
Japanese Siri! "Siri, what the fuck is up with that Phil Fish guy, maybe he should ship that game before getting all uppity, right?"
#20 Posted by Snipzor (3317 posts) -

Well... I can't disagree with him, but hey I'm not the one making an indie game.

#21 Posted by MordeaniisChaos (5730 posts) -

@CL60 said:

@MordeaniisChaos

They are typically full of all the worst things in video games. Repetition within a series, not killing a series when it should be, generic character designs (seriously, there are about 3 looks for 90% of games that come out of the east) and ancient design philosophy. Not to mention the bullshit that the few good developers pull by putting ONE DUDES NAME ON IT.

Same can be said about our games.

Oh yes, to an extent that could be said about every piece of entertainment regardless of origin. But most of our at least mildly successful stuff has variety, save for the CoDs and all that. But Halo, Gears of War, Ghost Recon/Rainbow Six, Arma and a bunch of other games keep even that genre more unique and refreshing than the eastern equivilant, being the JRPG.

#22 Posted by MiniPato (2657 posts) -

It seems like bigger developers have smaller egos and smaller developers have bigger egos. I mean, this guy's even got his own movie about his own game, that's kinda weird.

#23 Posted by MiniPato (2657 posts) -

@MordeaniisChaos said:

@CL60 said:

@MordeaniisChaos

They are typically full of all the worst things in video games. Repetition within a series, not killing a series when it should be, generic character designs (seriously, there are about 3 looks for 90% of games that come out of the east) and ancient design philosophy. Not to mention the bullshit that the few good developers pull by putting ONE DUDES NAME ON IT.

Same can be said about our games.

Oh yes, to an extent that could be said about every piece of entertainment regardless of origin. But most of our at least mildly successful stuff has variety, save for the CoDs and all that. But Halo, Gears of War, Ghost Recon/Rainbow Six, Arma and a bunch of other games keep even that genre more unique and refreshing than the eastern equivilant, being the JRPG.

I think the hate for JRPGs is more an aesthetic taste thing than a mechanical gameplay thing. And typically, that's what people think all Japanese games are which is unfair. People are quick to forget that Japanese games are more than JRPGs. Dark Souls, Shadows of the Damned, Bayonetta, and every successful fighting game ever (save for MK) count as modern Japanese games.

#24 Posted by Hailinel (22666 posts) -
@MordeaniisChaos

@CL60 said:

@MordeaniisChaos

They are typically full of all the worst things in video games. Repetition within a series, not killing a series when it should be, generic character designs (seriously, there are about 3 looks for 90% of games that come out of the east) and ancient design philosophy. Not to mention the bullshit that the few good developers pull by putting ONE DUDES NAME ON IT.

Same can be said about our games.

Oh yes, to an extent that could be said about every piece of entertainment regardless of origin. But most of our at least mildly successful stuff has variety, save for the CoDs and all that. But Halo, Gears of War, Ghost Recon/Rainbow Six, Arma and a bunch of other games keep even that genre more unique and refreshing than the eastern equivilant, being the JRPG.

You fail to cite how or why this is the case.
#26 Posted by MiniPato (2657 posts) -

I think this guy just sucks at elaborating on his opinion though, no need to get worked up over it. Bringing this up will only draw more "alljapanesegamessux" people into this thread.

#27 Edited by Animasta (14455 posts) -

@MordeaniisChaos said:

@CL60 said:

@MordeaniisChaos

They are typically full of all the worst things in video games. Repetition within a series, not killing a series when it should be, generic character designs (seriously, there are about 3 looks for 90% of games that come out of the east) and ancient design philosophy. Not to mention the bullshit that the few good developers pull by putting ONE DUDES NAME ON IT.

Same can be said about our games.

Oh yes, to an extent that could be said about every piece of entertainment regardless of origin. But most of our at least mildly successful stuff has variety, save for the CoDs and all that. But Halo, Gears of War, Ghost Recon/Rainbow Six, Arma and a bunch of other games keep even that genre more unique and refreshing than the eastern equivilant, being the JRPG.

there have been plenty of unique and refreshing JRPG's over the past few years; Resonance of Fate, SMT Devil Survivor 1 and 2, Dark Souls, Nier is technically an RPG, xenoblade is apparently pretty good...

also halo and gears of war are different types of games and are also mad generic :|

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#28 Posted by phish09 (1109 posts) -

Platinum is great, but other than that, he's right.

#29 Edited by Ravenlight (8033 posts) -

News* flash: "Guy is kind've a dick"

*not actually news

#30 Posted by Vorbis (2748 posts) -

Indie dev being pretentious, who could of known?

#31 Posted by Shady (503 posts) -

@MordeaniisChaos said:

@CL60 said:

@MordeaniisChaos

They are typically full of all the worst things in video games. Repetition within a series, not killing a series when it should be, generic character designs (seriously, there are about 3 looks for 90% of games that come out of the east) and ancient design philosophy. Not to mention the bullshit that the few good developers pull by putting ONE DUDES NAME ON IT.

Same can be said about our games.

Oh yes, to an extent that could be said about every piece of entertainment regardless of origin. But most of our at least mildly successful stuff has variety, save for the CoDs and all that. But Halo, Gears of War, Ghost Recon/Rainbow Six, Arma and a bunch of other games keep even that genre more unique and refreshing than the eastern equivilant, being the JRPG.

You listed games I think have honestly stagnated with each progressive entry. Then again, I'm not sure what you equate uniqueness and freshness with.

#32 Posted by lockwoodx (2479 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

He's entitled to his opinion, but he chose the worst time and manner to express it.

I sympathize with him.

#33 Posted by chrissedoff (2034 posts) -

The part of that article that made me laugh there was the 2ch person they quoted saying, "Has Canada ever had a famous game or game maker?" That right there tells you all you need to know how narrow-minded Japanese are.

#34 Posted by JoeyRavn (4883 posts) -

@MiniPato said:

It seems like bigger developers have smaller egos and smaller developers have bigger egos. I mean, this guy's even got his own movie about his own game, that's kinda weird.

Nah. Look at Bobby Kotick and that other dipshit from Electronic Arts. Massive cunts. It's Gaben or burst, yo.

PS: I still don't understand what FEZ is about.

#35 Posted by Hailinel (22666 posts) -
@Buzzkill

@Hailinel said:

He's entitled to his opinion, but he chose the worst time and manner to express it.

I sympathize with him.

That's fine. I don't. He's getting what he asked for.
#36 Edited by lockwoodx (2479 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

@Buzzkill

@Hailinel said:

He's entitled to his opinion, but he chose the worst time and manner to express it.

I sympathize with him.

That's fine. I don't. He's getting what he asked for.

He's also getting a ton of free publicity at the expense of telling the truth in a tactless way. There's always 2 sides to every coin.

#37 Posted by MiniPato (2657 posts) -

@JoeyRavn said:

@MiniPato said:

It seems like bigger developers have smaller egos and smaller developers have bigger egos. I mean, this guy's even got his own movie about his own game, that's kinda weird.

Nah. Look at Bobby Kotick and that other dipshit from Electronic Arts. Massive cunts. It's Gaben or burst, yo.

PS: I still don't understand what FEZ is about.

Bobby Kotick's a bad dude, but he's not a developer, he just owns the business.

#38 Posted by Mr_Skeleton (5117 posts) -

He is right modern Japanese game design for the most part is awful.

#39 Posted by Hailinel (22666 posts) -
@Buzzkill

@Hailinel said:

@Buzzkill

@Hailinel said:

He's entitled to his opinion, but he chose the worst time and manner to express it.

I sympathize with him.

That's fine. I don't. He's getting what he asked for.

He's also getting a ton of free publicity at the expense of telling the truth in a tactless way. There's always 2 sides to every coin.

He's also ensured that I will never spend a dime on his game. That is, if he ever bothers to release it.
#40 Posted by cosi83 (390 posts) -

Pathetic comment. Pass on his game

#41 Posted by Sammo21 (3015 posts) -

@Snipzor: apparently, neither was he for most of 6 years :)

#42 Posted by downtime58 (224 posts) -

I fail to see the wrath that the OP mentioned - either in the referenced Kotaku article or in general.

Guy is asked question - guy shares opinion - people with opposite opinions react oppositely - am I missing something?

Where is the part where he's suffering greatly, you know, because of wrath?

#43 Posted by Shady (503 posts) -

@chrissedoff said:

The part of that article that made me laugh there was the 2ch person they quoted saying, "Has Canada ever had a famous game or game maker?" That right there tells you all you need to know how narrow-minded Japanese are.

I guess it also shows how narrow-minded you are if you'll blanket a whole group based on one person's actions.

#44 Posted by MordeaniisChaos (5730 posts) -

@Shady said:

@MordeaniisChaos said:

@CL60 said:

@MordeaniisChaos

They are typically full of all the worst things in video games. Repetition within a series, not killing a series when it should be, generic character designs (seriously, there are about 3 looks for 90% of games that come out of the east) and ancient design philosophy. Not to mention the bullshit that the few good developers pull by putting ONE DUDES NAME ON IT.

Same can be said about our games.

Oh yes, to an extent that could be said about every piece of entertainment regardless of origin. But most of our at least mildly successful stuff has variety, save for the CoDs and all that. But Halo, Gears of War, Ghost Recon/Rainbow Six, Arma and a bunch of other games keep even that genre more unique and refreshing than the eastern equivilant, being the JRPG.

You listed games I think have honestly stagnated with each progressive entry. Then again, I'm not sure what you equate uniqueness and freshness with.

Standing apart from their peers. Just because there are a million games cribbing of of Gears of War, most of them are shit, or add a lot of variety to the game. If you buy into the term "Gears of War clone" for anything but that one weird japanese game with towers and the lady and germs or something.... That looked like a japanese Gears of War, then yeah, your going to think Gears of War is super generic and stuff, but it stands out from it's peers, ie high quality well recieved games. It's a third person game but it doesn't feel like other games, and it's a great series.Also, there are three of them. Not 20.

Halo, how many biblical scifi shooters have you played in the last couple of years? Reach and ODST while similar in over arching gameplay, mixed things up in tone and mechanics enough to keep those games interesting. Yeah, Halo 4 is coming and its seeming like another Halo game but who knows, it might be a cool. It might change things up in a meaningful selection of ways. But there aren't a lot of "Halos" out there. There aren't even really a lot of Sci Fi shooters.

Ghost Recon and Rainbow Six offer up a more tactical experience, and vary pretty significantly in feel and presentation, though yeah, they are realistic contemporary shootin games, but they handle and feel pretty different. And there aren't a ton of tactical shooters out there that get into the public's eye.

And I don't even need to argue Arma's case because that shit is nuts.

Also, Starcraft, Diablo, Dragon Age, C&C, AoE:O, Portal, MOBAs, TF2, Uncharted, The Last of Us, I Am Alive. There are plenty of major games with a lot of diversity from one another. Name ANY game and there will be derivatives of it. CoD has a million clones, every game has games that try to play off it's success. The important thing is to stand out amongst your peers. Yes, shooters are popular. So are RTS games, so are RPGs, so are weird indie games. So is fuckin minecraft. And when you consider what Gears of War's actual peers are, ie Halo and CoD and Ghost Recon and Arma and Deus Ex, ie quality polished products that are popular with consumers, it's not exactly identical to those games, it's pretty damn different.

#45 Posted by MordeaniisChaos (5730 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@MordeaniisChaos said:

@CL60 said:

@MordeaniisChaos

They are typically full of all the worst things in video games. Repetition within a series, not killing a series when it should be, generic character designs (seriously, there are about 3 looks for 90% of games that come out of the east) and ancient design philosophy. Not to mention the bullshit that the few good developers pull by putting ONE DUDES NAME ON IT.

Same can be said about our games.

Oh yes, to an extent that could be said about every piece of entertainment regardless of origin. But most of our at least mildly successful stuff has variety, save for the CoDs and all that. But Halo, Gears of War, Ghost Recon/Rainbow Six, Arma and a bunch of other games keep even that genre more unique and refreshing than the eastern equivilant, being the JRPG.

there have been plenty of unique and refreshing JRPG's over the past few years; Resonance of Fate, SMT Devil Survivor 1 and 2, Dark Souls, Nier is technically an RPG, xenoblade is apparently pretty good...

also halo and gears of war are different types of games and are also mad generic :|

Sure there are a few, there are a shit ton of cool crazy awesome unique shooters, from Metro to Cryostasis to Stalker to Bulletstorm to Borderlands to Mass Effect to Deus Ex to Fallout to Syndicate, all of which are pretty fucking different, and all of which are pretty good. They are all shooters, they all have you shootin stuff, often looking down sights. But I didn't find them to be similar experiences at all. At most, the Deus Ex and Syndicate world is similar. But they play and are structured very differently. And that is one genre. How many eastern shooters (not shmups) are there that anyone cares about? RTS? Character action that isn't Dynasty Warriors and therefore awful? Not a lot. JRPGs and Fighting games. Thats the bulk of what you see from the east outside of imports.

I'm not saying all Japanese games are terrible, or all are generic stereotypical bullshit. But a fuckin lot are and they don't exactly stretch themselves thin across genres. In fact, I love when they go to other genres because games like Vanquish and Metal Gear happen.

#46 Posted by deathstriker666 (1337 posts) -

I don't think his comments are really that offensive, but why Japan? Why not include all of the videogame industry? Why single out one nation? Many people take their nationality seriously, so why go out of your way to criticize what is obviously not secluded to one country. This whole situation is pretty stupid.

#47 Posted by AlexW00d (6056 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

@Buzzkill

@Hailinel said:

@Buzzkill

@Hailinel said:

He's entitled to his opinion, but he chose the worst time and manner to express it.

I sympathize with him.

That's fine. I don't. He's getting what he asked for.

He's also getting a ton of free publicity at the expense of telling the truth in a tactless way. There's always 2 sides to every coin.

He's also ensured that I will never spend a dime on his game. That is, if he ever bothers to release it.

That's pretty immature. You won't buy a game that could possibly be very good just 'cause the dude who made it doesn't like something you like? Grow up.

#48 Posted by Apathylad (3065 posts) -

Yeah, the problem here isn't so much his opinion, but the context of how and where he said it. Nameless Japanese developer praises the movie he just saw at a Q&A panel, he asks a question, only to have him deride modern Japanese development.

#49 Posted by Turambar (6481 posts) -
@MordeaniisChaos said:

They are typically full of all the worst things in video games. Repetition within a series, not killing a series when it should be, generic character designs (seriously, there are about 3 looks for 90% of games that come out of the east) and ancient design philosophy. Not to mention the bullshit that the few good developers pull by putting ONE DUDES NAME ON IT.

For the sake of repetition, the same can be said of western games, perhaps even more so.
#50 Edited by Animasta (14455 posts) -

@MordeaniisChaos: Uh, Bayonetta is in fact one of the best character action games I've played so that's a weird argument, and also 3 of those shooters you mentioned are from ukraine/russia which doesn't really count as "the west" (I will always say the games from Russia and Ukraine and that area [Even E.Y.E., which is thematically pretty similar] are superior to either country)

also fallout is an RPG, Deus Ex is an RPG, ME could be considered an RPG

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