#1 Edited by Claude (16254 posts) -

I bought a new HDTV "Panasonic Model# TC-P60ST60". It arrives tomorrow. But in my wait, I didn't notice the input lag problem with a lot of HDTVs. I found that the one I ordered has an input lag of 73.6 ms.

Another model the "Panasonic S60 series" has 34.1 ms input lag.

So, will I notice a difference? The information I gathered after the fact seems that input lag is far more noticeable in online shooters like Black Ops 2 or twitch shooters. I don't play games online very often. I play single player RPGs, Action Adventure and some sports games. But I still shoot a lot of stuff in my gaming.

The reason I went with Plasma was due to the fact I played on one until it finally died. I like the picture quality and if you break the tv in properly burn in shouldn't be an issue. Just curious if anyone thinks I should be cautious before I even open the box.

#2 Posted by ikilledthedj (331 posts) -

i have a plasma, i never really noticed the lag. it does exist but i think ive just gotten used it it. its never been like ohhh fuck this im dying all the time because of my tv which some people will lead to believe. there is some limit of lag that the eye can see, what that is i dont know however your body just adjust over time.

#3 Posted by Strife777 (1611 posts) -

I believe most games nowadays are made with that lag in mind. The bomb crew talks about it in this weeks podcast for a bit.

I don't think the difference would be noticeable, but I could be wrong. I've never played on a plasma, only LCD, and I don't know how they compare. I also think you would only notice it in multiplayer and since you say you mostly play single player, you should be fine.

Just my 2 cents, I'm no expert.

#4 Posted by Claude (16254 posts) -
#5 Posted by Fierrze (173 posts) -

ST60 have gotten infamous from the high input lag, but from what i have read, some owners don't even notice the lag. I think some people are more sensitive for input lag than others. Also some games manifest this more easily than others, like some have input lag naturally (Killzone 2) and if you are playing online that adds a bit too and that might pass the threshold so you might start noticing it.

I would recommend to try out the TV first, if you bought it from a place where you can open the package and send it back if you are not pleased. I skipped the ST60 for the high input lag and bought the Samsung equilevant of S60 (F5500) and i like it a lot.

Don't let the high input lag warnings scare you away from the ST60, because it might be little bit blown out of propotions. From what i have heard, that set has a killer picture!

#6 Edited by JJOR64 (19051 posts) -

I tried finding your TV on Display Lag, but I didn't see your model. If 73.6 is the actual input lag for the TV, that is awful. I would suggest find out on Display Lag's database.

http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/

#7 Posted by Veektarius (4984 posts) -

I have a panasonic LED TV and it's totally fine on input lag. I think it's an ST60.

#8 Edited by ThePhantomnaut (6201 posts) -

@jjor64 said:

I tried finding your TV on Display Lag, but I didn't see your model. If 73.6 is the actual input lag for the TV, that is awful. I would suggest find out on Display Lag's database.

http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/

Yeah 73.6ms of lag is pretty bad if you want precision. That's four frames of input lag. For shooters like Call of Duty, input lag must be kept at a minimum for optimal performance between your inputs and what's displayed on the screen. Same goes for fighting games to a bigger degree because of frame data properties from moves. You might notice the feel in some cases but if you are playing casually in most cases, it won't be an absolute hassle.

DisplayLag has a good database of monitors and TVs of all sizes and how they perform.

#9 Edited by Korwin (2984 posts) -

1 frame of lag is roughly 16ms of latency, at 73ms you are going to have a rotten time in anything that requires precision.

#10 Edited by Rorie (3173 posts) -

@claude: Both Jeff and I have the ST60 and I really don't notice the input lag much while playing, so long as you're playing in game mode. I was super worried about it before my TV arrived, but it wound up being a non-issue for the kind of stuff that I play on the TV (Dark Souls, Tomb Raider, Darksiders II, etc.). I wouldn't recommend using the TV for fighting games or old 2D platformers, as mentioned, but for everything else it should be fine.

Plus it's one hell of a TV. Get a blu-ray of The Avengers and be ready to lose your mind at how good your TV looks.

Staff
#11 Posted by tourgen (4542 posts) -

@korwin said:

1 frame of lag is roughly 16ms of latency, at 73ms you are going to have a rotten time in anything that requires precision.

yes, this right here.

If that TV actually has ~74ms of input lag it's SHIIIIIIIIT. kill it in a fire.

1 frame at 60Hz (60 frames a second) is equal to 16.67ms. There may be a double buffer in there somewhere, in the game software or in the HDCP or HDMI hardware; that's another 16.67ms (or 33ms at 30fps).

You hit a button. 6 FRAMES LATER YOU START TO SEE THE RESULTS. You might as well be playing by telegraph.

#12 Edited by CatsAkimbo (642 posts) -

It bugs the hell out of me that tv manufacturers/people don't care more about input lag. I was shopping for a TV somewhat recently and input lag was the only thing I cared about, but it's so difficult to find comparable information on that kinda thing.

Your TV is probably going to be fine. Look online for the best settings for games on it. Some TV's have more than just "Game Mode;" my current TV actually runs faster if I don't use game mode and instead use HDMI port 2 and rename the input to "PC," which puts it into some even-faster rendering mode that gets below 15ms input lag, but disables a few more color options that I don't use for games anyway. I think it removed every post-processing thing the TV could do, because it did actually make games look washed-out at first, but I tweaked some of the color options in the xbox settings and it looks great and is so smooth/responsive now.

#13 Posted by Duecenage (225 posts) -

I remember when I upgraded from my 45 inch Sharp to my 65 inch Panasonic, it was like getting into HD all over again! I didn't think I could be even more blown away. I had wished I waited to watch Tin Tin on the bigger screen cause the CG in that would've just POPPPPED!

@rorie said:

@claude: Both Jeff and I have the ST60 and I really don't notice the input lag much while playing, so long as you're playing in game mode. I was super worried about it before my TV arrived, but it wound up being a non-issue for the kind of stuff that I play on the TV (Dark Souls, Tomb Raider, Darksiders II, etc.). I wouldn't recommend using the TV for fighting games or old 2D platformers, as mentioned, but for everything else it should be fine.

Plus it's one hell of a TV. Get a blu-ray of The Avengers and be ready to lose your mind at how good your TV looks.

#14 Posted by OurSin_360 (941 posts) -

hmm, i didn't know this even existed, one more thing i need to look out for now i guess.

#15 Edited by Claude (16254 posts) -

@rorie: Thanks for the reply. I've decided to keep it. I do watch a lot of movies, shows, sports and the quality of the picture is just too hard to pass up. I saw a video of a guy playing Killzone 3 on an ST60 and another HDTV with better input lag. I couldn't tell a difference. And people say Killzone 3 has lag to begin with.

Thanks to everyone else too, much appreciated.

#16 Posted by Humanity (9867 posts) -

@claude: You will notice the difference, and yes you are fucked.

#17 Posted by metalhammer (65 posts) -

Plasma has generally been better for input lag. I have an old Panasonic V10 which is excellent for input lag - some of the newer TVs with more bells, more whistles, have unavoidable picture processing that can't be bypassed. 40ms isn't a bad result with today's TVs.

#18 Edited by Syed117 (392 posts) -

This can be a touchy subject for some people.

At the end of the day, input lag really matters. Regardless of whether you notice it or not, it makes a difference.

I have an older pansonic plasma. The G10 from 3 or 4 years ago. It is around 30ms which is good but not great. At the time, I specifically bought this tv because it had low input lag and because I have always preferred plasmas. While panasonic still makes the best TVs for overall picture quality, their newer TVs haven't been great when it comes to input lag. The ST60 is an amazing TV, but its input lag is not acceptable. It's not good for gaming.

This might sound stupid or even dickish, but a lot of it also depends on how good you are at games, shooters specifically. I play on my plasma and I've gotten used to it, but If I switch to my monitor which gets around 10ms, It's a huge difference for me. I've seen people play on TVs with 100ms input lag and it doesn't phase them at all because they aren't great at shooters and just blame their own skill. Even with a low input lag screen, they don't do great, so it doesn't matter. People who say they don't notice it are usually the ones not looking for it, or not sensitive to how much of a difference it makes.

For the best experience, you want 30ms or less. I think the best TVs get around 15ms, while the best monitors are around 10ms. The problem is most TVs don't hit those lower numbers. You can easily find great monitors for gaming.

With all the extra processing that TVs are adding for apps and other features, it's getting harder to find a screen that is suitable for gaming. At this point, it is priority number one for me. I would happily take a decrease in picture quality as long as the input lag is as low as possible. Monitors will always be best but once you get used to playing on a 55 or 65 inch screen, it's hard to go back.

#19 Edited by audioBusting (1643 posts) -

Most HDTV's nowadays have a game mode that gives you better latency, so don't worry too much about it.

#20 Edited by cmblasko (1322 posts) -

Your TV is probably going to be fine. Look online for the best settings for games on it. Some TV's have more than just "Game Mode;" my current TV actually runs faster if I don't use game mode and instead use HDMI port 2 and rename the input to "PC," which puts it into some even-faster rendering mode that gets below 15ms input lag, but disables a few more color options that I don't use for games anyway. I think it removed every post-processing thing the TV could do, because it did actually make games look washed-out at first, but I tweaked some of the color options in the xbox settings and it looks great and is so smooth/responsive now.

How did you find this information? And which TV if you don't mind me asking?

#21 Posted by CatsAkimbo (642 posts) -

@cmblasko said:

@catsakimbo said:

Your TV is probably going to be fine. Look online for the best settings for games on it. Some TV's have more than just "Game Mode;" my current TV actually runs faster if I don't use game mode and instead use HDMI port 2 and rename the input to "PC," which puts it into some even-faster rendering mode that gets below 15ms input lag, but disables a few more color options that I don't use for games anyway. I think it removed every post-processing thing the TV could do, because it did actually make games look washed-out at first, but I tweaked some of the color options in the xbox settings and it looks great and is so smooth/responsive now.

How did you find this information? And which TV if you don't mind me asking?

A Samsung LN52a650, it's getting a bit older now and has a massive frame with a colored glass bezel which I think actually looks kinda cool. As far as I know, the hdmi PC mode is undocumented, and I only found out about it when I was looking at new tv's for someone. I believe it was this thread on the AVS Forums that I learned about it.

#22 Posted by Fierrze (173 posts) -

@cmblasko: He might be talking about Samsung telly, because those have semi hidden PC mode toggle, which has less input lag than the standard game mode.