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#1 Posted by ChaosTony (102 posts) -

http://t.co/XDBDoqaKLQ

I pulled the title straight from the article because there's really no other appropriate way to frame it. I hope it turns out to be false, but her last forum post is so chilling I literally read it and got vertigo. This is the kind of stuff that really gets to me. When I was a kid, a friend of mine got harassed repeatedly after accidentally giving out her real info in an AIM chat, and she almost took her own life. People need to learn from this, there's a point where internet trolling and lulz becomes hate and harassment. I don't even know what else to say except I hope she's actually ok.

#2 Posted by BigJeffrey (5178 posts) -

Oh shit not this (Pretty fucked up)

Gaf is all over this, some creepy video, not knowing if authorities reached her in time, pretty fucking brutal.

if Ms.Alex get shut down, soon ......

/thread

#3 Posted by Village_Guy (2662 posts) -

Ouch, that is one ugly situation.

Hopefully this is false and something/someone just messed up, because this pretty fucked up if true.

#4 Edited by zels (207 posts) -

@chaostony: All we know for sure thus far is that there was an attempt.

EDIT: from reddit

[–]Ohmwrecker [score hidden] 29 minutes ago*

Guys, I was knee deep in this stuff last month, as were some others from the editorial community. I tried to get Chloe help, as I had spoken with her privately several times on Skype. There was a previous episode where threats were made similar to this, immediately after the Indiegogo campaign was pulled again, and I worked with local police (Chloe lives in the Chicago area as well) to prevent anything like this from happening. Last I heard they tracked Chloe down, and did a wellness check. One of her trusted college professors was involved as well.

I've spoken with the police officers I worked with last month once again, they seemed unaware of the situation on Twitch, and are once again moving to get her help. I understand that others have contacted the police, but the problem is that Chloe's real name is not Chloe Sagal. I can assure you though that police will be en-route if they haven't been dispatched already.

I'm only getting caught up on this stuff now, so if you have any new information please let me know immediately. Hopefully, like last time, this was more of a cry for help than a real attempt.

Edit: Just had a follow-up call with an officer, they definitely have an officer en-route to Chloe's home now. As far as I was able to gather Chloe's local police were unaware of the matter until I called in, most likely because Chloe Sagal is not Chloe's real name.

#5 Edited by audioBusting (1672 posts) -

That's really fucked up. I hope it didn't go through. It is a bit hard to believe people on the internet on matters like this since there's so many attention whores (e.g. someone claiming to have leukimia to promote his Mario hack), so it sucks when it's serious.

#6 Posted by LackingSaint (1855 posts) -

I sinceretly hope this isn't true. Considering how poorly she seemed to be doing at the time, I thought the amount of hate she got online for her IndieGoGo was absolutely disgusting, and really showed the inhumanity of some people.

Hopefully at the very least, this story might make some people realise that what they say online can actually affect people.

#7 Posted by MachoFantastico (4889 posts) -

Real or not, mental health is serious stuff. If it's real, I really hope she gets the help she desperately needs.

LackingSaint, sadly the internet will never learn. There will always be inconsiderate people saying nasty offensive things to people who don't deserve it.

#8 Posted by Nasos100 (727 posts) -

Hope everything goes well.

#9 Edited by LackingSaint (1855 posts) -

Real or not, mental health is serious stuff. If it's real, I really hope she gets the help she desperately needs.

LackingSaint, sadly the internet will never learn. There will always be inconsiderate people saying nasty offensive things to people who don't deserve it.

Agreed, it'd take a naive person to believe this kind of thing can ever just stop. But, as I said, I just hope some of the people involved reflect on what they've done.

#10 Posted by Kerned (1169 posts) -

Update from NeoGAF user Darylsdn:

She's alive and at the hospital. Not sure if I'm going to post more details but that's all I have for now, not sure if she even wants me to share that on here, but it sounds like things have gotten a bit serious... but she's okay right now.

Hopefully his info is accurate.

#11 Edited by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -

@trueenglishgent said:

Real or not, mental health is serious stuff. If it's real, I really hope she gets the help she desperately needs.

LackingSaint, sadly the internet will never learn. There will always be inconsiderate people saying nasty offensive things to people who don't deserve it.

Agreed, it'd take a naive person to believe this kind of thing can ever just stop. But, as I said, I just hope some of the people involved reflect on what they've done.

Sadly I think that's asking for way to much.

#12 Posted by Stonyman65 (2871 posts) -

Wow that is really messed up. I hope she makes it out of the hospital okay.

#13 Posted by Ravenlight (8011 posts) -

Man, I'm a wizard and...you know.

I wish nothing other than good things for the victim and nothing but neverending minor misfortune for the aggressors.

#14 Posted by ShiftyMagician (2132 posts) -

That's really fucked up. I hope it didn't go through. It is a bit hard to believe people on the internet on matters like this since there's so many attention whores (e.g. someone claiming to have leukimia to promote his Mario hack), so it sucks when it's serious.

Man that whole event was absolutely horrible and it was obvious in his voice how bummed he was when he found that out before the end.

On topic, hope she recovers and bounces back in good time.

#15 Posted by audioBusting (1672 posts) -

@shiftymagician: (to be fair, he admitted that he was wrong and apologized for it in public. But yeah, not a surprise that the internet can be so cynical at times, though really in this case some people went a bit overboard.. Why would they do the extra effort to worsen her life? Even if she was a fraud, they could've just ignored her.)

On topic: it's good to hear she's still alive... I hope she gets better. It sucks how much money it takes to be healthy sometimes.

#16 Edited by MordeaniisChaos (5730 posts) -

I sometimes wonder why people who commit suicide often seek attention through that act, but then I suppose there's not much about an attempt on one's own life I really "get."

My thoughts are with the poor girl and I hope she gets the help she needs. Sounds like she needs a lot. Hard to know the reality of the matter but that much is clear no matter what the "truth" is.

#17 Edited by Winternet (8053 posts) -

That's some serious messed up shit. Hope everything is "ok" with her.

#18 Posted by Animasta (14723 posts) -

@mordeaniischaos: they seek attention because often times deep down they don't want to do it and sometimes just want somebody to visibly care about them (I had a friend I had to talk down over the internet once that was fun).

which sounds accurate if the girl's been being attacked for... whatever she did.

#19 Posted by Brodehouse (10129 posts) -

@Mordeaniischaos I assume it has something to do with reestablishing agency and control over one's life, though through a twisted counterproductive mindset. The times in my life where those thoughts have bubbled to the surface are when events that affect me are completely beyond my control, and escape or refusal to play along is the only avenue in which one can assert agency. I believe someone posted a mental health article that posited that suicidal thoughts happen when pain exceeds coping mechanisms. Seems legit to me.

#20 Posted by Animasta (14723 posts) -

reading that neogaf thread it seems people believe this was some sort of thing to secretly fund her reassignment surgery and that she is trans?

and of course that led to people being terrible and harassing her for lying... whether that was even true or not, because she never confirmed it and internet detectives have a history of being wrong.

INTERNETNEVERCHANGES

#21 Posted by Demoskinos (15148 posts) -

I don't know what side to believe here but either way its fucked up.

#22 Edited by Brodehouse (10129 posts) -

According to my girlfriend, she had started an indiegogo campaign for a 'life saving surgery' and it turned out it was reassignment surgery instead. Consider that we have an enthusiast crowd here who wants to sue EA for fraud when they release a game that they don't like (it claims to be fun and it's not!!), and then consider what their reaction might be to an actual case of fraud. Especially as regards crowd funding which it seems a lot of people already regard with the hairy eyeball.

#23 Edited by Nardak (580 posts) -

Hopefully she has some friends and relatives that can help her out.

Getting some support messages from the community at large could help a bit also I think.

#24 Edited by MordeaniisChaos (5730 posts) -

@brodehouse: I understand the suicidal part. It's the part where you decide to broadcast it on the internet, or do something else to draw attention on you doing it that gets at me. I've had a few experiences with suicidal individuals, and they've always avoided attention at all costs when they get to that point of making an attempt.

#25 Posted by Animasta (14723 posts) -

@brodehouse: that has never been confirmed though, all of that comes from some reddit internet detective.

and we all know how 'good' reddit internet detectives are

#26 Edited by Brodehouse (10129 posts) -

@mordeaniischaos: Yeah, it's cry-for-help territory. Even being the twatty asshole that I am, I don't begrudge anyone crying for help when they actually require help. I've made the cry for help before (granted I just went directly to a hospital and asked to talk to a professional), so I understand the why. It's crying for help when you don't need it, when you just want the benefits, that is the point when I retract my sympathy.

I don't know much about this scenario or the person aside from what my girlfriend told me and this thread. Optimistically, she's just all fucked up inside and a bit of therapy will sort this out. Cynically, she's sane and is using this to redirect any criticism of fraudulent behaviour. But I don't know, so it's all just speculation on my part.

#27 Posted by I_Stay_Puft (3811 posts) -

Sad stuff man, sounds like at the moment she's alright but the road is still tough hopefully this Chloe person will pull through.

#28 Posted by Animasta (14723 posts) -

@brodehouse: well her indiegogo already got pulled so any deflection of fraudulent behavior is kinda not worth it at this point.

Plus lying about the actual surgery... well, seeing as how she did try and commit suicide, it probably wasn't a total lie that if she doesn't get the surgery it'd kill her

#29 Posted by Brodehouse (10129 posts) -

@animasta: Those Internet detectives appear to have done alright in Steubenville and Boston. Do you hold them in low regard in every situation or just when the situation suits your feelings? In time, the truth will out, one way or the other.

Technically I don't even believe there is any legal recourse if it was in fact fraud, since crowd funding places tend to emphasize the amount of consumer rights you waive to participate.

#30 Edited by Animasta (14723 posts) -

@brodehouse: those internet detectives also accused that missing (now turned out dead) kid for the boston attacks? Sunil Tripathi if I remember correctly.

and hell, why would I blame her for doing what she did if that reddit post was right? I know better than most what she's going through

#31 Edited by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -

@animasta said:

@brodehouse: those internet detectives also accused that missing (now turned out dead) kid for the boston attacks? Sunil Tripathi if I remember correctly.

and hell, why would I blame her for doing what she did if that reddit post was right? I know better than most what she's going through

That is true, they did do that.
Also, don't remember countless articles written saying "oh, Reddit did such a swell job with their detective work" during the whole Boston thing, unless it was a very well written and sarcastic post.

#32 Posted by Brodehouse (10129 posts) -

@animasta: And when he proved to be incompatible as a suspect, he was no longer held as such. As in, the truth will out. It's important to build evidence and base your opinion off that, rather than make judgements based on what you want to be the case and then altering or ignoring any evidence that contradicts it. This is the rational worldview I'm always espousing around here. It's why the fourteenth amendment exists. Also known as the second best amendment.

Unrelated to this, what actually happened to Sunil Tripathi, besides 'turned up dead'? What do detectives, Internet or no, say happened?

#33 Edited by MordeaniisChaos (5730 posts) -

@brodehouse: I would argue that anyone who ends up in the hospital because of events like this probably needs the help, even if it started out as a sane person trying to avoid responsibility for their behavior.

#34 Posted by EXTomar (4943 posts) -

I don't see "internet detectives" as any more or less harmful than other civic minded people. In a free and open society we don't do enough investigating of information where having people take it upon themselves to dig deeper should be promoted.

However the problem becomes when others take it upon themselves to act as the "arbiter of justice" or some other such nonsense. Exposing fraud is fine and even noble. Making someone pay for the fraud is much more dubious and probably shouldn't be "our" business.

#35 Posted by Animasta (14723 posts) -

@brodehouse:well to be fair your post definitely seemed like you weren't questioning that fact (that she lied about where the money was going towards) when it hasn't been confirmed, so apologies if it wasn't.

and to be frank I don't even care if she lied, because life's hard enough for trans people anyway, but especially if you're from a 3rd world country and/or america (I don't remember it saying where she was from).

#36 Posted by Brodehouse (10129 posts) -

@extomar: The 'arbiter of justice' in any case should be a civil or criminal justice court. The court of public opinion's only power is that, opinion. It depends on the person how they wish to deal with that.

@Animasta You edited one of your posts (or I just didn't catch it), to say paraphrasing "so what if she did commit fraud, it was for a good purpose". I just want to state that fraud is actually one of the most severe non-violent crimes that you can commit. I'd hold it second to only perjury (which is itself, a defrauding of the justice system). The pernicious problem of fraud is that duplicity doubles the efforts of justice to actually out the truth, and negatively impacts everyone. If it turns out that yes, this person did knowingly attempt to defraud her backers by intentionally mischaracterizing the goal of the money, it negatively hampers anyone else who tries to crowd source their own "life saving surgeries". This is why we hold people who defraud people under the guise of charity in such contempt; it makes the work of actual charities that much more burdensome.

So yes, if she did knowingly lie about it, you _should_ care.

#37 Posted by Animasta (14723 posts) -

@brodehouse: but since it appears that she is depressed and suicidal, doesn't that mean that technically it would have been a life saving surgery? not in the literal sense but...

and sorry, I just can't care. I literally can't because I sympathize with her too much... You're probably right and that I should, but I'm not.

#38 Posted by triple07 (1198 posts) -

You guys are getting pretty off topic with the whole internet detectives discussion now.

Anyway, I saw this happening last night and it really disturbed me and made it hard to sleep so I'm glad it looks like she is doing alright now and I hope she gets the help she needs.

#39 Edited by Oldirtybearon (4885 posts) -

@animasta said:

@brodehouse:well to be fair your post definitely seemed like you weren't questioning that fact (that she lied about where the money was going towards) when it hasn't been confirmed, so apologies if it wasn't.

and to be frank I don't even care if she lied, because life's hard enough for trans people anyway, but especially if you're from a 3rd world country and/or america (I don't remember it saying where she was from).

I don't like seeing defenseless dogs get kicked either, but when said dog just bit somebody it's hard to sympathize. You shouldn't let your sympathy cloud your judgment. Nobody deserves a free pass for being a scam artist (not saying Chloe Sagal is, mind you).

#40 Edited by JackSukeru (5964 posts) -

I followed the Indiegogo campaign until it was cancelled and since hasn't managed to keep myself updated on what's been going on. I was kind of expecting some bad news one of these days, not exactly this though.

I hope things work out for her.

#41 Posted by Reisz (1527 posts) -

@animasta said:

@brodehouse: but since it appears that she is depressed and suicidal, doesn't that mean that technically it would have been a life saving surgery? not in the literal sense but...

and sorry, I just can't care. I literally can't because I sympathize with her too much... You're probably right and that I should, but I'm not.

On the contrary. Sympathy is a valuable response here, if it turns out that there was something amiss with this campaign, so be it. That doesn't mean everyone should treat this situation at it's face value. The factors that contribute to someone feeling so helpless as to consider themselves forced into this position are likely of incredible personal pressure. It's impossible for anyone outside of that to determine what this felt like to her. Crimes are committed every minute out of desperation, if there is anything that can be done to provide support in a time of need like this, compassion and sympathy is the best place to start.

My thoughts go out to her, I hope when the time comes those closest can help her understand that even on the internet there are those out there who think of her as another human being.

#42 Edited by Brodehouse (10129 posts) -

@animasta: Come now. That's some tortured logic being applied. Perhaps if her indiegogo said "need surgery or will kill self"...?

The reason why you should care is out of sympathy for other pre-op trans people. You should not rally around this, because it negatively impacts any other trans person who attempts to use indiegogo for related purposes ("he/she's just using this for reassignment! Scam!").

Picture if you will, a Pentecostal campaign to raise money for ... Aid to Africa. And they get a ton of money from people who want to send humanitarian aid to Africa. And then imagine if the truth it came out it was used to renovate the local church, or start an awareness campaign for some church issue, or used it to feed the homeless. Anyone would be upset, even if the money was used for a cause they were also sympathetic too... What's more, it would negatively impact any other Pentecostal or other religious charity that is raising money for African aid. While they might feel justified, an outside perspective would not. I'm an atheist, if this same scenario happened under that banner, I wouldn't look to justify based on my sympathy to someone who feels like I do, I would criticize and make it clear that that kind of behaviour does not represent atheists or our values. I don't want atheists seen as unrepentant fraudsters.

As someone who cares, this kind of behaviour, if true, has to be rebuffed. And sorry if I don't respond for a while, work has become monstrous.

#43 Edited by LordXavierBritish (6320 posts) -

#44 Posted by Animasta (14723 posts) -

@animasta said:

@brodehouse:well to be fair your post definitely seemed like you weren't questioning that fact (that she lied about where the money was going towards) when it hasn't been confirmed, so apologies if it wasn't.

and to be frank I don't even care if she lied, because life's hard enough for trans people anyway, but especially if you're from a 3rd world country and/or america (I don't remember it saying where she was from).

I don't like seeing defenseless dogs get kicked either, but when said dog just bit somebody it's hard to sympathize. You shouldn't let your sympathy cloud your judgment. Nobody deserves a free pass for being a scam artist (not saying Chloe Sagal is, mind you).

if she was savvy enough to be a scam artist I really don't think she'd have tried to kill herself.

She felt like it was her only option and to be honest? If it was really some sort of disease (or poisoning) that kill you like that I really don't think she'd have been turned away by a hospital.

she would've racked up terrible medical bills, of course, but I can't imagine they'd have turned her away.

SRS is considered a "cosmetic" surgery by a lot of people, but if she felt that strongly about it I can't help but sympathize. Should she have done what she done, no, but that doesn't mean that she didn't think it was her only option.

#45 Edited by EXTomar (4943 posts) -

@brodehouse: But is a powerful force in our 24/7 always online society. You will find no bigger advocate for "protect the reviewer" than me where it is their opinion. However what has happened in cases like this is that an entire online community creates a consensus opinion which is a very different beast than you or me sitting on a message board expressing opinions.

Basically it comes down to this: Having you or me scrutinize her online activity because we suspect fraud is one thing. Having all of NeoGAF, GiantBomb or the indie scene scrutinize her online activity because the community at large suspects fraud feels and acts very different.

And to be clear, I am not pleased or excusing that she lied. If she didn't do this it would be clear her activity on KS and Indie Go Go should have been banned if not for an period of time or some other penalties. I am only objecting to the community behavior where no one is to blame and yet the chorus of people demanding 'a pound of flesh' now have it.

#46 Edited by Darji (5293 posts) -

@animasta said:

@brodehouse: but since it appears that she is depressed and suicidal, doesn't that mean that technically it would have been a life saving surgery? not in the literal sense but...

and sorry, I just can't care. I literally can't because I sympathize with her too much... You're probably right and that I should, but I'm not.

I do not know how it is in the US but in Germany if it is really really bad for your health and you are already in this kind of state then it will be paid mostly by our insurances. But you just need to prove it that it is really an issue for your health which can be rather hard. But this is how people actually even get breast OPs paid here in some degrees.

But despite all that she should just have told the truth and not make up some car accident I head of.

#47 Posted by Brodehouse (10129 posts) -

@extomar: Understandable. I am not of the 'pound of flesh' variety, I actually end up being the one who argues against people's bloodlust when some repellant criminal gets arrested and people wish torture and suffering upon them. For me it's about a very uncompromising set of principles, and the rejection of negative actions for 'good causes'. I empathize with her (him? I'm actually not sure of the details) wanting reassignment, but I categorically disagree with fraud being a legitimate avenue to achieve it.

And of course, the response to suicide or attempts to it is to ask they seek professional help.

#48 Posted by Nicked (258 posts) -

@reisz said:

@animasta said:

@brodehouse: but since it appears that she is depressed and suicidal, doesn't that mean that technically it would have been a life saving surgery? not in the literal sense but...

and sorry, I just can't care. I literally can't because I sympathize with her too much... You're probably right and that I should, but I'm not.

On the contrary. Sympathy is a valuable response here, if it turns out that there was something amiss with this campaign, so be it. That doesn't mean everyone should treat this situation at it's face value. The factors that contribute to someone feeling so helpless as to consider themselves forced into this position are likely of incredible personal pressure. It's impossible for anyone outside of that to determine what this felt like to her. Crimes are committed every minute out of desperation, if there is anything that can be done to provide support in a time of need like this, compassion and sympathy is the best place to start.

My thoughts go out to her, I hope when the time comes those closest can help her understand that even on the internet there are those out there who think of her as another human being.

Good point. It's not totally clear to me what the facts are here, but it doesn't seem like this person committed a crime. It's a little gross to me that people are inflating what seems to be a white lie into a criminal offense. Sure, it's socially unacceptable to mislead people when you're asking for money, I get that, but this is an extremely taboo situation and I can understand why someone would feel the need to be secretive. This severely depressed person made a faux pas in terms of not being specific enough about her fundraising campaign. I don't think that makes her an out and out fraud.

#49 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4885 posts) -

@animasta said:

if she was savvy enough to be a scam artist I really don't think she'd have tried to kill herself.

She felt like it was her only option and to be honest? If it was really some sort of disease (or poisoning) that kill you like that I really don't think she'd have been turned away by a hospital.

she would've racked up terrible medical bills, of course, but I can't imagine they'd have turned her away.

SRS is considered a "cosmetic" surgery by a lot of people, but if she felt that strongly about it I can't help but sympathize. Should she have done what she done, no, but that doesn't mean that she didn't think it was her only option.

SRS is literally cosmetic surgery. Putting quotation marks around the word doesn't make it untrue.

That said, I don't think she/he'd have gotten this much flack for the IGG campaign if she/he had been honest about its purpose. Hell, a lot of people would've probably funded it anyway just to pat themselves on the back and feel good about it. I can't sympathize with someone who willfully tried to manipulate people into giving money under false pretenses. Saving someone's life is a hell of a different goal than making their naughty bits a different kind of naughty bits. No, I'm not trivializing gender dysphoria, just recognizing that there is a strong difference between not feeling like you're really a man/woman and life threatening illness.

As for rationalizing his/her behaviour based on options, that's a crap excuse. She/he had the option to tell the truth and hope for the best. Instead she dug a hole with a lie and when that was uncovered she/he just kept digging until last night. Whether you or I or anyone feels sympathy is irrelevant - Chloe Sagal (or whoever he/she really is) did this to him/herself.

please note - I only know that this person is transgendered, I have no idea if it's MtF or FtM, hence the he/she business.

#50 Posted by TheDudeOfGaming (6078 posts) -

In situations such as these I pass no judgement since I don't know the whole story. She asked for money claiming that it was a surgery her life depended on and according to some people (person) it turned out to be a lie. Even if this is true however it still shouldn't end up costing someone their life. I just don't know man.