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Posted by shell_kracker (71 posts) 1 year, 5 months ago

Poll: Shin Megami Tensei vs. Final Fantasy (134 votes)

Shin Megami Tensei (and spinoffs) 66%
Final Fantasy (and spinoffs) 34%

- Final Fantasy I

- Final Fantasy II

- Final Fantasy III

- Final Fantasy IV

- Final Fantasy IV: The After Years

- Final Fantasy V

- Final Fantasy VI

- Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core

- Final Fantasy VII

- Final Fantasy VIII

- Final Fantasy IX

- Final Fantasy X

- Final Fantasy X-2

- Final Fantasy XI

- Final Fantasy XII

- Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings

- Final Fantasy XIII

- Final Fantasy XIII-2

- Final Fantasy XIII: Lightning Returns

- Final Fantasy XIV

- Final Fantasy Tactics

- Final Fantasy Tactics Advance

- Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift

- Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles

- Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Ring of Fates

- Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a King

- Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Echoes of Time

- Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a Darklord

- Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers

- Final Fantasy The 4 Heroes of Light

- Final Fantasy Versus XIII

- Final Fantasy Dissidia

- Final Fantasy Dissidia 012 Duodecim

- Vagrant Story

- Final Fantasy Legend I

- Final Fantasy Legend II

- Final Fantasy Legend III

- Final Fantasy Adventure

- Final Fantasy Mystic Quest

VS

- Shin Megami Tensei I

- Shin Megami Tensei II

- Shin Megami Tensei III

- Shin Megami Tensei IV

- Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey

- Shin Megami Tensei: If...

- Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 1

- Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 2 - Innocent Sin

- Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 2 - Eternal Punishment

- Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 - The Journey

- Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 - The Answer

- Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4

- Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga I

- Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga II

- Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner 1 - Raidou Vs. Soulless Army

- Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner 2 - Raidou Vs. King Abaddon

- Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner - Soul Hackers

- Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 1

- Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2

- Shin Megami Tensei: DemiKids

- Persona 4 Arena

- Catherine

#1 Posted by Petiew (1334 posts) -

I haven't played enough SMT to really give a fair comparison, but my main problem with the majority is the fact they're often just very dense, grind heavy dungeon crawlers. I didn't feel like Digital Devil Saga had enough charm to warrant me spending another 20 hours slogging through boring environments.

#2 Posted by Nightriff (4931 posts) -

Persona 4 is better than all FF games alone

#3 Posted by Icicle7x3 (1174 posts) -

Persona 4 is better than all FF games alone

My rebuttal

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#4 Posted by shell_kracker (71 posts) -

@petiew said:

I haven't played enough SMT to really give a fair comparison, but my main problem with the majority is the fact they're often just very dense, grind heavy dungeon crawlers. I didn't feel like Digital Devil Saga had enough charm to warrant me spending another 20 hours slogging through boring environments.

Some are, some aren't.

There are a lot of sub-series, with the following characteristics:

- Persona (elements of visual novel, dating sim, containing Jungian philosophy), e.g.:

- - - Persona 3 (urban modern setting)

- - - Persona 4 (rural modern setting)

- Devil Survivor (strategy RPG), e.g.:

- - - Devil Survivor 1

- - - Devil Survivor 2

- Shin Megami Tensei (first person Wizardy-style dungeon crawler), e.g.:

- - - Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey

Devil Summoner (action RPG), e.g.:

- - - Devil Summoner 1: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. The Soulless Army

- - - Devil Summoner 2: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon

Other:

- - - Catherine (dating sim, with heavy emphasis on philosophy)

There is something for everyone. I guess some people are intimidated by old style first-persona RPGs for example (they have a reputation for being dark, hard and so forth), but actually, when I just sat down and played Strange Journey, it turned out to be amongst the finest games ever released on DS. Similar to Atlus's other series Etrian Odyssey, except with a great story.

I love both FF and SMT; they are both very deep, explore complicated themes. They can both be quite dark, although SMT's emphasis on demons, the subconscious, esotericism, religion, mysticism, philosophy and psychology, makes it appear like the darker of the two. Final Fantasy also contains humanism, and a focus on average people's reactions to emotional situations.

JRPGs in general are better value for money I think - most shooters are instantly forgettable - but a good JRPG is like a novel; explores literary themes, and teaches you something - makes you stronger.

#5 Posted by ImmortalSaiyan (4676 posts) -

Persona 4 is better than all FF games alone

I think this as well but I never played any any SMT games besides Persona 3 and 4. Well, I played Devil Survivor but that did not leave a good impression. Not a fan of grindy RPGs. Ima go with FF because I like more of the games so it's better as a series to me.

#6 Posted by shell_kracker (71 posts) -

I would be interested in hearing the reasons why you both found Persona 4 better than every FF game - it could make for some interesting analysis. Personally, I think sometimes, people overlook some of FF's strengths. I am also rare for actually thinking Final Fantasy XIII is a strong game in the series. However, I still voted SMT by a narrow margin in the poll.

#7 Posted by PenguinDust (12455 posts) -

I haven't played enough of either to really make the call. I liked Final Fantasy XII and (yes) X-2 quite a bit, but I love Persona 3 FES and P4. On the other hand, I got tired of Digital Devil Saga rather quickly and FFX really didn't grab me all that much. Honestly, as far as major JRPG franchises go, I prefer Dragon Quest. All these games are a bit grind heavy but that's just something I've come to expect from a JRPG. I'm enjoying Ni No Kuni these days, but I still find myself running around open plains chasing down critters to level up before the next big sequence.

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#8 Posted by Gaff (1669 posts) -

Are we keeping the Western naming convention or the Japanese one, because over half of those games in the SMT section aren't part of the SMT franchise as such in Japan.

#9 Edited by Petiew (1334 posts) -

@shell_kracker: I guess some of the problem of getting into SMT for me is the availability of the series. Devil Summoner is going to set me back £35 for a used copy, while 2 will be £50. Strange Journey is import only, and the Devil Survivor games are only just making their way over here.

Digital Devil Saga 1 I gave a try, but I just couldn't get into the story, or the atmosphere and I didn't enjoy the battle system or grinding much.

I have played all of the Persona games though (3 being my favourite). Would you count Catherine as a SMT or even a spinoff? Seems like a different IP.

I do enjoy JRPGs, and you're right that they are better value for money. Just often I can't justify putting down near full price (Either due to import costs, inflated prices, etc) or over for an older game that I might not enjoy . DDS did seem like it was going to get to an interesting place, judging from what I read of the second game, but I didn't find it enthralling enough to put that amount of time in.

#10 Edited by shell_kracker (71 posts) -

In terms of number of releases, the top three most popular JRPG franchises are probably

- Dragon Quest

- Final Fantasy

- Shin Megami Tensei

I guess Pokemon is quite popualr too (moreso sales than number of quality releases), and a little-known-in-the-west franchise called 'East of Eden'. Stuff like Tales, Star Ocean, Ys, are probably a tier below these in terms of popularity.

Personally I find that you have to accept JRPGs on their own terms. A lot of people who hate a certain JRPG for example, usually do, because they compare it to another. In reality, the reason why every FF is different, is to provide a new world, rather than re-hash - if you want to play an FF7 type RPG for example, just re-play FF7. That is gaming done right - but it's called 'retro gaming' in the media - as if a game has a use-by date.

That is why FFXIII got some stick - people didn't accept it on it's own terms. FF isn't about playing everything, from 1 to 13 for bragging rights - it's about selecting which entry appeals to you most.

Also, the renaissance humanism of looking at the emotions and feelings of characters rationally, and taking pleasure/inspiration/knowledge from them is central to FF. Sometimes, in an age of superficial emotionalism in games, such as mainstream shooters, it is hard to appreciate the more 'neorealist' and subtle emotions of a JRPG.

SMT is a little different, in that it focuses far more on transcendental experiences, as well as sombre worlds, darkness, etc. Thats not to say it isn't also humanistic, but it explores high philosophy more brazenly.

#11 Posted by Turambar (6677 posts) -

The results should be interesting because the bulk of the site population probably knows what a standard Final Fantasy game is like while fewer know of its spin offs while everyone knows what SMT spinoffs are like while few here have ever played a traditional SMT game.

Personally, some titles within SMT are better than most, if not all the Final Fantasy titles just through setting and tone alone. On the other hand, Final Fantasy has a far more varied line-up in terms of genre and general game experience, and many are considered to be some of the top games in their respective fields. That and their historical standings cannot be denied.

#12 Posted by Oscar__Explosion (2209 posts) -

@shell_kracker: I want to hear why you think FF XIII is a strong game. I've hear all the negative commentary on it already (quite frankly I really dislike the game) but I want to know why some people actually like it.

#13 Posted by shell_kracker (71 posts) -
@gaff said:

Are we keeping the Western naming convention or the Japanese one, because over half of those games in the SMT section aren't part of the SMT franchise as such in Japan.

Well, people often say this - but when the Persona games share all the demons with Shin Megami Tensei, have the same developer, it's hard not to consider them part of the same franchise. Western idea of Persona being SMT is official as far as I'm concerned. Note I also included things like Final Fantasy Legend in FF series too.

@petiew said:

@shell_kracker: I guess some of the problem of getting into SMT for me is the availability of the series. Devil Summoner is going to set me back £35 for a used copy, while 2 will be £50. Strange Journey is import only, and the Devil Survivor games are only just making their way over here.

Digital Devil Saga 1 I gave a try, but I just couldn't get into the story, or the atmosphere and I didn't enjoy the battle system or grinding much.

I have played all of the Persona games though (3 being my favourite). Would you count Catherine as a SMT or even a spinoff? Seems like a different IP.

I do enjoy JRPGs, and you're right that they are better value for money. Just often I can't justify putting down near full price (Either due to import costs, inflated prices, etc) or over for an older game that I might not enjoy . DDS did seem like it was going to get to an interesting place, judging from what I read of the second game, but I didn't find it enthralling enough to put that amount of time in.

I guess you might live in Europe like me, judging from what you said about SJ being import. I never thought I would import a game honestly, but I did import Strange Journey, and didn't regret it - it's quick and easy compared to the olden days - as easy as buying a copy in your own country; just takes a couple more days to arrive.

DDS is a hard game to recommend. Some say it's the most traditional and FF-like of the sub-series. But it's also pretty hardcore with dungeons that are forbidding. Honestly, although some people recommend it as an entry point into the non-Persona games, I think they might be wrong. Strange Journey seems old-school, but honestly, if you don't rush, and just play with an attitude of 'ill do this slow and thoroughly', it's probably the better introduction to the main series. Also one of the three finest games on DS I would wager; though not everyone would agree.

Catherine I would count as Persona/SMT. It simply contains too many themes from the series. They may not have officially given it the SMT or Persona name - but it is. Full of the same psychology, subconscious, and occult themes as the others. It is a great game, that everyone this generation should play once at least.

I used to think that price was a big obstacle - especially since the gaming press are constantly wanting us to BUY BUY BUY tons of titles every month - but in the case of companies like Atlus, Falcom, Level-5, Mistwalker, Monolith Soft, SquareEnix - I think the price is justified. You feel inundated with games sometimes - I have learnt to discriminate between stuff that looks good on paper, and stuff that is genuine value - and I think JRPGs are worth a £35 import in many cases. Compared to a throwaway shooter or something, it will really teach you something; and these games are ones you genuinely might want to keep proudly on a shelf and play again in 10 years.

I think the gaming community is waking up to the fact that games are like cinema; a cinema buff does not descriminate between a 50s black and white film, and a modern 60 frames per second 3D movie - they are more like a design choice. The gaming press have put this idea out for the last 30 years that games have a shelf life - now gamers are realising, that a 10-year old PS2 RPG can have as much value as a new £40 release. Gotta love Atlus, Falcom and SquareEnix for making sure their back catalogue is available on every system - GBA, DS, PSP, 3DS, PS Vita, Steam, XBLA, PSN - but we need more options still.

#14 Posted by TooWalrus (13139 posts) -

Final Fantasy I think is a better series as a whole, but Persona 3 FES is the best game... ever, as far as I'm concerned.

#15 Posted by shell_kracker (71 posts) -

@shell_kracker: I want to hear why you think FF XIII is a strong game. I've hear all the negative commentary on it already (quite frankly I really dislike the game) but I want to know why some people actually like it.

No problem, I'll say it as best as I can - this might be my last post, because GiantBomb seems to limit number of posts for new users at least.

First of all, as good artists will say; the best art is flawed. In Buddhism or Japanese-Buddhist culture, a pot is often created with deliberate artefacts of it's construction, in a term called 'wabi sabi' which is an artistic/Buddhist idea meaning art that emphasises the impermanence and transience of things. So to put it simply; I never look for games to be pitch-perfect, but rather try to accept them for their intent.

I also see what I think SquareEnix are trying to do with Final Fantasy. A lot of people deride them for spinoffs and stuff. But actually, in ancient times, that is how cultural folklore and epics were built. Each new poet added his own twist or side story. The building of a mythology in organic ways is quite compelling, when you see it like that. The FF teams try out new, sometimes weird, or seemingly blasphemous concepts - because you can always go back and play the older FF games - they will always be there.

So, having said that, as a preliminary, I still think FFXIII is one of the stronger in the series, because:

Battle System:

In this age of little time, where we are forced into more and more time-consuming wage slavery, the battle system, which is very easy to jump in and out of - which does not punish you by making you re-play for an hour again if you die - is quite suitable to modern lack of time, and an enjoyable battle system anyway.

Story:

I found the sotry to be quite interesting. The characters are not Dante-type ubermench riding pizza boxes around while slaying everything stylishly. They aren't brooding heroes like Cloud or Squall, constantly in existential reflection. But they human, and have human problems, and can be quite compelling if viewed in an accepting and casual way. The plot is also strong, but obviously, for spoilers, can't be mentioned. It's important to come to grips with the terms fal'Cie and l'Cie early on.

The World:

Quite honestly one pf the most interesting FF worlds I've seen. Unlike Mass Effect, where you actually learn it's history via Codex entries, and examining objects, in FF, the art team have made a very subtle and logical world, where you can appreciate the place an inanimate object, or location, has in the greater picture. Really one of the strongest bits - the world of Coocoon and Pulse - it's implied history - and it's fal'Cie, etc.

I will try to think of more things, but I find, after listening to old-school FF friends who started on PS1, that I quite like the voiced new-era Final Fantasy games, so far. They get an unfair rep. And SquareEnix is still a strong developer, despite their miscalculated ventures into MMOs, etc. Along with Atlus, and BioWare, they are the company I can least afford to ignore news/announcements from.

#16 Posted by Animasta (14651 posts) -

I like you FF12, but... Shin Megami Tensei 3: Nocturne is the best JRPG. so SMT obvs

#17 Posted by YI_Orange (1135 posts) -

@petiew said:

I haven't played enough SMT to really give a fair comparison, but my main problem with the majority is the fact they're often just very dense, grind heavy dungeon crawlers. I didn't feel like Digital Devil Saga had enough charm to warrant me spending another 20 hours slogging through boring environments.

That sounds like an argument against both of them.

That said, I vastly prefer SMT. I love those games. Nocturne, DDS, Person 3 and 4, Devil Survivor. All fantastic games. The others, from what I've played, are pretty good too. The only FFs I've ever beaten are Tactics(which is an amazing game), FF 1, and FF 13. I wouldn't call 13 better than the rest, but I actually somewhat enjoyed playing it, plus it was really pretty. The other FFs are just standard RPGs with stories and characters I never really cared about(barring Kefka, he's awesome).

#18 Edited by Pr1mus (3825 posts) -
@animasta said:

I like you FF12, so FF obvs

I fully agree!

#19 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

I've played the majority of those FF games, so I do love FF, but the SMT series totally won me over.

I think in the last 3-4 years I've played;

- Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey

- Shin Megami Tensei 3: Nocturne

- Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 - The Journey

- Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 - The Answer

- Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4

- Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4 Golden

- Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 1

- Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2

- Catherine (... not really an SMT game though it does share many of the same themes, etc)

and I love all of those.

P4: Golden is my favourite game of all time, even.

So yeah - if you'd asked me 5 years ago, my answer would have been "Shin Megami What?", but nowadays there isn't much competition.

For reference, I'm one of those guys who liked FF8 and X more than 6/7/9.

#20 Edited by believer258 (11685 posts) -

@shell_kracker:

most shooters are instantly forgettable

in an age of superficial emotionalism in games, such as mainstream shooters,

Compared to a throwaway shooter or something

Do you have something against shooters? Or do you mind bringing up a different genre to compare JRPG's against?

Meanwhile, I didn't really start delving into JRPG's until a year ago and I don't feel like my knowledge of either series is strong enough to give a decision. I will say, just from playing Nocturne and Persona 3, that I'm definitely more interested in Shin Megami Tensei, potentially because I know far less about it than I do about Final Fantasy. But I've played entries in both that I really enjoy, notably Nocturne and FFVI. Unfortunately, I haven't completed a game from either series because my personal main complaint against JRPG's is that they tend to be long. Also not a complaint that can only be leveled at JRPG's, but I'd like it if my games didn't go beyond the sweet spot of 25 hours.

EDIT: Also, you forgot a Final Fantasy game. War of the Lions.

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#21 Edited by StarvingGamer (8041 posts) -

@oscar__explosion: You didn't ask me but I figured I'd answer anyway.

The reason I like FFXIII, and the reason why it ranks near the top on my list of FF games, is almost entirely based on the strength of the combat system. It's true that it takes a while to open up completely, but I never found myself bored as even at its most basic level, it is already as complex as the combat systems in most other JRPG's.

By the time I reached Gran Pulse, the game had given me enough tools during combat to take on enemies grossly more powerful than me, if I was good enough. In most other JRPG's this is where the game would get grindy, with a myriad of new monsters with "Must Be This Leveled to Ride" signs hanging from their necks, telling me to go kill random trash for five hours before coming back and trying again. In FFXIII, I could fight those monsters now in by-the-teeth, hour-long battles, as long as my planning and strategy were up to snuff.

Basically, FFXIII rewards players for playing skillfully whereas most other RPG's simply reward players for playing more.

Also I don't share most of the complaints other people had. I don't mind the linearity as it allowed them to tell a much more laser-focused story, and most of the time spent in towns in RPG's amounts to wheel-spinning and busywork anyways. I don't mind that Hope and Vanille are annoying because hey, kids can be annoying, and it gave them much more room for interesting character growth. And I've never had a problem with Nomura's art style.

EDIT: And maybe it's because I've been steeped in crazy fantasy stuff for so much of my life, but I never found any of the terminology and jargon to be confusing.

#22 Edited by Oscar__Explosion (2209 posts) -

@starvinggamer: It's interesting to me that you singled out the battle system as your favorite part to FF XIII because I find it to be the weakest part about the entire game. The combat system in any RPG I play is the most important aspect to me. If the combat sucks then I want nothing to do with the rest of the game which is the main reason why I dislike FF XIII so much. I found myself being able to just hit auto-battle over and over again while occasionally switching paradigm's whenever my health was low, granted there probably is some more depth to the combat than I had realized but it didn't help that auto-battle was even an option.

Now before anybody says if I didn't get far enough to appreciate or unlock the real part of the game, I think 30+ hours is enough to know if a game is going to be good or get any better.

#23 Edited by StarvingGamer (8041 posts) -

@oscar__explosion: IIRC you received better rewards in FFXIII by performing better. It's no different than the new DmC in that regard. Rather than punish you for unskilled play (auto-battle/mashing the same attack), it rewards you for skilled play. In Street Fighter you can do ok if you just do Jumping Roundhouse > Crouching Roundhouse forever, but that doesn't make it any less deep or compelling a fighting game. In FFXIII you can spam auto-battle, but you won't be instantly staggering enemies for five-star kills (or however they were ranked) if that's all you do.

EDIT: I suppose it's just a difference in philosophy. FFXIII and DmC cater more to players that want to maximize their score or resource gain, not players that want to do the minimum required to get by.

#24 Edited by Canteu (2821 posts) -

Final Fantasy means a lot to me. I grew up with them and still enjoy them to this day. I also think FF XIII (and 2) are excellent. Their combat is the perfect evolution of ATB gameplay.

That being said I love the SMT games, but my vote has to go with FF. They're just flat out more important to the history of video games and to myself, than SMT.

@YI_Orange You have to consider, that when you say the FF games are standard RPG's, they are that way because they shaped what a "standard" RPG is. Other games that are like FF are standard RPG's. Consider the difference between the Dragon Warrior series and FF (both comparable in the period they were popular), and consider which more modern RPG's crib from.

edit: For reference, I've finished every FF game, and the vast majority of SMT games.

#25 Posted by C2C (855 posts) -

I voted FF solely because it was largely responsible for making JRPG's a huge thing in the west for a time. I dunno if we would have gotten the bulk of SMT games without the first half of the final fantasy series. I mean the first really good representation of the SMT series the west got was SMT: Nocturne, somewhat after Final Fantasy was at its apex.

Though for the record, I do prefer where the SMT series has been going compared to Final Fantasy.

#26 Posted by Slag (4091 posts) -

Persona is pretty great, SMT otherwise is just ok.

FF however is the best and likely always will be.

#27 Posted by coakroach (2488 posts) -

SMT because hooray for player choice impacting story!

#28 Posted by Hailinel (23986 posts) -

@turambar said:

The results should be interesting because the bulk of the site population probably knows what a standard Final Fantasy game is like while fewer know of its spin offs while everyone knows what SMT spinoffs are like while few here have ever played a traditional SMT game.

Personally, some titles within SMT are better than most, if not all the Final Fantasy titles just through setting and tone alone. On the other hand, Final Fantasy has a far more varied line-up in terms of genre and general game experience, and many are considered to be some of the top games in their respective fields. That and their historical standings cannot be denied.

Or they'll just judge SMT by what they know of Persona 4, because Endurance Run.

Both series have their strengths and weaknesses, so it's hard for me to really choose. I've gravitated more toward SMT for a number of years now, but I'm also one of those people that enjoyed FFXIII and am actually looking forward to Lightning Returns.

#29 Edited by fisk0 (3881 posts) -

I'd say the Final Fantasy games probably have better gameplay, but I don't like the stories in a single one of them, and I'm generally disgusted by the characters (I guess Lightning has been the only character in a FF game I've genuinely found interesting), whereas the SMT games if nothing else almost always have an exceptional atmosphere, and usually a great cast and in quite a few of them (mostly the Persona games) have really strong and intriguing stories as well. Not that I've ever actually finished any of the games in either franchise, but spent a good number of hours with all the mainline Final Fantasy games (plus two of the Legends games for Game Boy), all but the japan exclusive Persona 2 game of the Persona series, and almost all the SMT games that were released for the PS2 in Europe.

#30 Posted by SgtSphynx (1276 posts) -

As much as I love Persona 3 and Persona 4, Final Fantasy has Vagrant Story, so I vote for Final Fantasy.

#31 Posted by Video_Game_King (36122 posts) -

Final Fantasy has Vagrant Story, so I vote for Final Fantasy.

But only barely. My answer is Final Fantasy, too, because I've experienced more of that than I have of the SMT universe. Hell, not counting spin-offs, I've probably only experienced about an hour of the SMT universe.

#32 Posted by Poppy_Persona (150 posts) -

Persona 3 alone beats all the ff games just...because and i say that as a person who has enjoyed ff games immensely.

#33 Posted by Danteveli (1165 posts) -

I like SMT universes more but Final Fantasy is just legend plus it had that Chocobo kart racing game.

#34 Posted by ArbitraryWater (11502 posts) -

SMT is all about Satan and occasionally about getting anime-type girls to like you. Final Fantasy has been victim to Nomura's character designs for over a decade. Listen guys, I like Final Fantasy V and VI as much as the next man, but in terms of "What have you done for me recently?" I can say with clarity that Final Fantasy doesn't do anything for me post SNES, with the obvious exception of X-2 because it has a job system and is so hilariously stupid.

#35 Edited by QuistisTrepe (628 posts) -

There's no comparison, not anymore. The mere mention of Final Fantasy these days should be enough to elicit snickering. The origins were great, but the legacy of Final Fantasy is that of games with bloated budgets, pretty graphics, a serviceable plot, and boring gameplay. I'm not sure why Vagrant Story is on that list, but it sure isn't helping. That was one of the worst and most pointless games I've ever played.

#36 Posted by JJOR64 (18916 posts) -

Isn't the Persona games only SMT outside of Japan?

#37 Posted by shell_kracker (71 posts) -


EDIT: Also, you forgot a Final Fantasy game. War of the Lions.

Final Fantasy Tactics is right there in the list.

#38 Posted by believer258 (11685 posts) -

@believer258 said:

EDIT: Also, you forgot a Final Fantasy game. War of the Lions.

Final Fantasy Tactics is right there in the list.

Eh, all right. I'm more curious as to why you kept deriding shooters, though.

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#39 Edited by shell_kracker (71 posts) -

As long as it's just curiosity, thats okay. It almost sounded like you took offence, which is why I didn't reply.

Basically, I grabbed a genre out of the air, which has a reputation (barring honourable exceptions), for providing narratives which glorify the myths of war, glorify the military, play upon Hollywood type narratives (i.e. not neorealism), and paint foes as subhumans. I contrasted this with the sometimes subtle emotions in JRPGs, which explore tender and transient states of mind, such as self-doubt, self-recrimination, self-esteem, etc.

It's a genre which I play, and have done since the beginning; it's a criticism born of familiarity - and just one man's opinion.

#40 Edited by MonetaryDread (1995 posts) -

Three video game concepts that I do not enjoy:

  • Dating-Sim's
  • Visual Novels
  • A soundtrack that consists of a few J-Pop songs that are split into chunks and then played on a loop for 100+ hours J-pop / K-pop / any other form of pop music

I do not think that the Final Fantasy games are the best RPG's out there, but for me, they offend me a lot less then the persona series. (I have not played any mainline SMT games except for a few hours of Nocturne)

#41 Edited by believer258 (11685 posts) -

@shell_kracker: I kind of did take offense at first but that wouldn't have been conducive to a decent conversation, but I guess a little bit of that did shine through.

Anyway, I really don't mean to derail too much so I'll just say that a lot of the criticisms you posted are ones that could be leveled at, say, The Iliad. I immediately thought that a lot of the praise you've laid on JRPG's in this thread could be taken apart and shown to be almost as obnoxious as some of the things you don't like in shooters; that is what I took a bit of offense from. But it's more just a curiosity on my part now. Argh! I'll stop derailing now.

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#42 Edited by Video_Game_King (36122 posts) -
#43 Edited by believer258 (11685 posts) -

@video_game_king said:

Yes and no. The Iliad is basically a Hellenistic rap song: it glorifies violence at the same time it condemns it. (Remember: I specialize in dumb statements like this.)

That's a very interesting interpretation, I never really thought of The Iliad that way. What would you say of using Beowulf's glorification of personal strength and physical prowess as a better classic literature analog to the "oorah!" themes of modern mainstream shooters, then?

EDIT: Goddamn it, I can't help myself.

Online
#44 Posted by Video_Game_King (36122 posts) -

@believer258:

Go ahead. I've never touched Beowulf. I'd probably get around to it if I found a Japanese audiobook of it, though :P.

#45 Edited by Hunter5024 (5555 posts) -

I wish I had more experience with the SMT franchise. Modern Final Fantasy is one of the most depressing things in video games, but there are 4-5 games in that series that are as excellent as JRPG's have ever been. You could say the same thing about Persona 3 and Persona 4, but the other SMT games I've given a shot haven't been anything particularly special. So I'd give it to Final Fantasy, but if current trends persist then I could easily see that franchise being overshadowed.

#46 Posted by DaMisterChief (628 posts) -

Persona

#47 Posted by shell_kracker (71 posts) -

A lot of classical cultures glorify such conservative and reactionary ideas. Thats why an unhealthy preoccupation with the past, often goes hand in hand with

Three video game concepts that I do not enjoy:

  • Dating-Sim's
  • Visual Novels
  • A soundtrack that consists of a few J-Pop songs that are split into chunks and then played on a loop for 100+ hours J-pop / K-pop / any other form of pop music

I do not think that the Final Fantasy games are the best RPG's out there, but for me, they offend me a lot less then the persona series. (I have not played any mainline SMT games except for a few hours of Nocturne)

The music of Shin Megami Tensei has incredible range:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZtUKEdBnEw - Electronic battle theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDtScZx8CJU - Acoustic electronic chillout

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWlF7WAv7sw - The march of pure evil

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUNTqqxBAOM - French vocals chillout

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlmdrYgZ-4Y - Jazzy chillout

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpACR3ogCBc - Old skool chiptunes!

We are the Atlus faithful....

Shoji Meguro is our Nobuo Uematsu.

Kazuma Kaneko is our Tetsuyo Nomura AND Yoshitaka Amano, in but one body.

All hail Jack Frost.

Worship him. Worship him. Worship him.

#48 Posted by MonetaryDread (1995 posts) -

A lot of classical cultures glorify such conservative and reactionary ideas. Thats why an unhealthy preoccupation with the past, often goes hand in hand with

@monetarydread said:

Three video game concepts that I do not enjoy:

  • Dating-Sim's
  • Visual Novels
  • A soundtrack that consists of a few J-Pop songs that are split into chunks and then played on a loop for 100+ hours J-pop / K-pop / any other form of pop music

I do not think that the Final Fantasy games are the best RPG's out there, but for me, they offend me a lot less then the persona series. (I have not played any mainline SMT games except for a few hours of Nocturne)

The music of Shin Megami Tensei has incredible range:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZtUKEdBnEw - Electronic battle theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDtScZx8CJU - Acoustic electronic chillout

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWlF7WAv7sw - The march of pure evil

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUNTqqxBAOM - French vocals chillout

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlmdrYgZ-4Y - Jazzy chillout

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpACR3ogCBc - Old skool chiptunes!

We are the Atlus faithful....

Shoji Meguro is our Nobuo Uematsu.

Kazuma Kaneko is our Tetsuyo Nomura AND Yoshitaka Amano, in but one body.

All hail Jack Frost.

Worship him. Worship him. Worship him.

I think this supports my argument. This is one of the most annoying songs that I have ever heard in a video game (the worst is the soundtrack to The World Ends With You) and it isn't even the worst song in that game.

#49 Edited by shell_kracker (71 posts) -

I didn't care that much - also there is far worse J-pop around - be thankful we didn't end up with Ranka chan crap :)

#50 Edited by probablytuna (3554 posts) -

If it's judged in terms of how many games in both series I've played, then Final Fantasy wins. If it's judged in terms of how much fun and love I have in the games, then it would be Shin Megami Tensei (specifically Persona 4 Golden).