#151 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -

#152 Edited by Anund (881 posts) -

@panvixyl said:

@kaosangel: a minority is still a presence that deserves representation, and if you want more women in the engineering field representation is nesecarry

ur arguments r all failures

xoxo

Look, you're wrong and here's why. I work as a software developer. In my University class of 60 people, 3 were women. One graduated. I work at a company with about 100 employees. We have four female employees. One of them is a developer, the others do accounting and marketing. One is the personel manager. We are looking tooth and nail for more female developers, but they just aren't out there. Why? Because they don't study programming. The odds of one of these rare female coders even being in a position to get up on stage is miniscule. Asking that Sony have a fair representation of women is stupid, because the gender distribution on that stage was fair to the actual situation.

Also, regarding sexism in games development, I'm sure it's a problem. Those women on twitter didn't just speak out for fun. But that doesn't mean that more game developers are sexist than people in other fields. It's simply a matter of math. Say there are 2 female coders at a company, and 100 males. The percentage of men being a sexist idiots is about as high as for any other workplace, but since there are so many more men working in this office, the odds of one of them being sexist is quite a lot higher. Further more, since there are so few women there, the odds of one or both of them being victimized is much larger. The impression then is that all women in games development are being harrassed by sexist men, even though the men working in games development are not more sexist than any others.

#153 Edited by Aegon (5488 posts) -

So there were no female lead designers at the Sony press conferences because that's just how it worked out. She buys a Wii U out of spite, which 1) Is a waste of money if you don't actually want it and 2) Nintendo makes Mario and Zelda games. Mario and Link save princesses over and over again. Princess Peach is the most helpless female in the video game industry.

This woman is dumb.

#154 Posted by panvixyl (325 posts) -

@kaosangel: stop deflecting dude

myself and other ladies in tech fields know that the entire industry is problematic, but just because the gaming field is less problematic does not mean you should ignore it's problems

also, not every guy who presented on that stage or had some level of presence was a head engineer.

#155 Posted by jozzy (2042 posts) -

http://www.polygon.com/2013/2/21/4014884/applications-for-sony-online-entertainments-g-i-r-l-scholarship

Sony Online Entertainment's Games in Real Life (G.I.R.L.) program is now accepting applications for its 2013 game design and scholarship competition.

The initiative, which launched in 2008, aims to encourage more women across North America to enter the games industry. The G.I.R.L. program supports women over 18 years of age in the U.S. who are currently studying in an undergraduate program relating to video games. Successful applicants receive a $10,000 scholarship toward their college tuition as well as a 10-week paid internship at SOE's headquarters in San Diego for hands-on experience working on one or more of the developer's games.

#156 Posted by Kaiserreich (690 posts) -

@kaosangel: I could almost believe that she would write something like that (and I could also see idiots agreeing).

#157 Posted by Mrsignerman44 (1100 posts) -

What a world we live in huh?

Everything is being put under a goddamn microscope these days, it's really sad.


#158 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -
#159 Posted by panvixyl (325 posts) -

@anund: i get that there are more dudes in the industry! i get that women are a minority! but if you want to attract more women into an engineering career you absolutely have to show that it isn't just a total sausage fest 100% of the time

I don't care if 1 in a 1000 engineers are women, it is absolutely vital that these women are not ignored

@aegon said:

Princess Peach is the most helpless female in the video game industry.

excuse you

#160 Posted by Aegon (5488 posts) -

@panvixyl said:

@kaosangel: a minority is still a presence that deserves representation, and if you want more women in the engineering field representation is nesecarry

ur arguments r all failures

xoxo

Maybe they should forcibly put every single minority up on the stage? Let's put Pakistani, Filipino, Mexican, and other minority males and females up there no matter what level of the company they're in. You've got a minority concept artist? Sure, let's give him something to say. His people have a presence in the industry and it deserves representation!

#161 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -

@panvixyl: Then tell Apple and Google to (wo)man up and show them in the press events instead of all the head male engineers.

No one bitches at Apple or Google and they are second to none in the entire tech industry. If they aren't doing it, then why would other companies?

#162 Posted by panvixyl (325 posts) -

@aegon said:

@panvixyl said:

@kaosangel: a minority is still a presence that deserves representation, and if you want more women in the engineering field representation is nesecarry

ur arguments r all failures

xoxo

Maybe they should forcibly put every single minority up on the stage? Let's put Pakistani, Filipino, Mexican, and other minority males and females up there no matter what level of the company they're in. You've got a minority concept artist? Sure, let's give him something to say. His people have a presence in the industry and it deserves representation!

your straw man argument is not cute

and also yes, I do believe there should be a larger POC presence in the gaming field. oops.

#163 Edited by Aegon (5488 posts) -

@panvixyl said:

@aegon said:

@panvixyl said:

@kaosangel: a minority is still a presence that deserves representation, and if you want more women in the engineering field representation is nesecarry

ur arguments r all failures

xoxo

Maybe they should forcibly put every single minority up on the stage? Let's put Pakistani, Filipino, Mexican, and other minority males and females up there no matter what level of the company they're in. You've got a minority concept artist? Sure, let's give him something to say. His people have a presence in the industry and it deserves representation!

your straw man argument is not cute

and also yes, I do believe there should be a larger POC presence in the gaming field. oops.

It's not a straw man argument. You're talking about minorities up in that post, no? I'm talking about minorities in the post below it and I'm showing you how ridiculous your stance is.

#164 Edited by FierceDeity (358 posts) -


I just never get these kind of issues. The idea that every industry should be 50/50 male/female is ludicrous. Culture shapes what careers people pursue in life, and the only way to change issues like this is to change our culture radically, and that's simply unfeasible. It's not like there aren't female dominated industries anyway - see teachers, or pediatricians!

#165 Edited by fragilenin (43 posts) -

@panvixyl:

@panvixyl said:

@fragilenin: women SHOULD be represented in everything they are a part of dummy

women are a part of the video game industry therefore the industry should note their presence

and from this response the ladies clearly did want to "be there" soooo why weren't they? you want to achieve equality, you start by including women every step of the way.

and if CBS had a major conference designed to represent the company as a whole I would sure as shit expect a female presence

First of all way to start your argument by name calling, you're already off to a great start.

Second, did I every insinuate that women are not a part of the video game entertainment industry? No I did not. Of course there are women in the industry. As a software engineer, it sucks to see that there aren't more women in the field but it's just a sad fact. But women should be represented because of their talent and achievements not just because they are female. By presenting women just because they are women, that does nothing. It is disgusting. But I guess that's what you want. Just throw some women out there.

Finally, Giantbomb represents the company on almost a daily basis so I guess there should be a larger presence of women going by your logic.

/arguing with you

#166 Posted by panvixyl (325 posts) -

@kaosangel: am i not allowed to bitch at all of them though???

and here, a cursory search turned up at least on woman who has done a google press event - engineer marissa mayer

#167 Posted by panvixyl (325 posts) -
@aegon said:

@panvixyl said:

@aegon said:

@panvixyl said:

@kaosangel: a minority is still a presence that deserves representation, and if you want more women in the engineering field representation is nesecarry

ur arguments r all failures

xoxo

Maybe they should forcibly put every single minority up on the stage? Let's put Pakistani, Filipino, Mexican, and other minority males and females up there no matter what level of the company they're in. You've got a minority concept artist? Sure, let's give him something to say. His people have a presence in the industry and it deserves representation!

your straw man argument is not cute

and also yes, I do believe there should be a larger POC presence in the gaming field. oops.

It's not a straw man argument. You're talking about minorities up in that post, no? I'm talking about minorities in the post below it and I'm showing you how ridiculous your stance is.

it is a strawman argument

i am excited for time to show you how dummy-dumb dumb your position is

goodbye~

#168 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -

Oh look at that, Google's latest product.

Not a single woman.

#169 Posted by Andorski (5268 posts) -

Coincidentally, Polygon just posted this article about SOE doing a scholarship program for only female programming undergrads.

Gender equivalency, AMIRITE?!?

#170 Posted by Andorski (5268 posts) -

@panvixyl said:

@kaosangel: am i not allowed to bitch at all of them though???

and here, a cursory search turned up at least on woman who has done a google press event - engineer marissa mayer

Do you think Google just trotted her out to prove a point of gender equivalency?

She was a key engineer on a handful of Google services and she does well in a public forum. In other words, she's out on stage because she's the best person to publicly represent Google.

Unless you have some substantiated evidence to believe that Sony has women who have been instrumental to their successes but intentionally choose men for leading roles, your argument is nothing more than "Women should be head the company because women aren't heading the company."

#171 Posted by Mushir (2389 posts) -

Not a lot of people are ready to show what they are working on for the PS4 yet. Considering how male-dominant this industry is today, it's not surprising that the few people who were ready to talk yesterday happened to be male.

#172 Posted by JasonR86 (9657 posts) -

Sony probably didn't decide what employees would present for their companies they partnered with. They probably just picked the companies. So why blame Sony for the lack of female presenters? Seems wildly misguided to me.

#173 Posted by Sooty (8082 posts) -

This is absolutely pathetic, I'm not sure what's worse, claiming Sony are sexist because of this or these "feminists" thinking they are fighting a cause instead of just being attention whores with their armies of white knights.

#174 Edited by Mr_Skeleton (5141 posts) -

While there is place for this discussion somehwere she is not the person to talk about it and this is not the right example.

Why did you even bother to make a topic about this is beyond me, a much better platform for this discussion would have been in one of the topics from a few weeks ago from Patricks article.

#175 Posted by LikeaSsur (1510 posts) -

@mr_skeleton: The point of the topic was to discuss whether this was a real issue, or if we're crying wolf too much. The danger of the former means, obviously, that sexism is still prevalent. The danger of the latter is we risk becoming apathetic to the real issues (assuming this did not qualify as one).

#176 Edited by ArtisanBreads (3794 posts) -

@kaosangel said:

@kaiserreich: That's my favorite.

hahahaha.

Oh god. All for women's rights. It's just gone too far in some cases where we are trying to find the issue everywhere. And yes that totally creates a "cried wolf" situation.

#177 Posted by JasonR86 (9657 posts) -
#178 Edited by dudeglove (7740 posts) -

...what?

I feel like I've fallen into some affirmative-action fever-dream. IIRC there were also no Africans or African Americans. So Sony is both sexist and racist yeah?

No arms either

#179 Posted by JordanK85 (140 posts) -

Yeah go ahead and boycott Sony for sexism and buy Nintendo products. Nintendo's never done anything that could be construed as sexist....oh.

#180 Edited by JZ (2125 posts) -

Women are not allowed to be around driveclub guy, or the other way around.

#181 Edited by FierceDeity (358 posts) -

@optix12 said:

Im pretty sure it is a huge lack of females in the industry itself. Relating this to my university the general boy/girl ratio was 51% in favour of girls, but in my course (computer engineering) 98% were males. I swear I only ever saw 2 or 3 girls in my classes ever. I dont know why females dont join but they were not looked down upon or leered at in lectures. Same within my IT classes in A levels, there were a total of 3 females out of the 60 that took the course.

Also inb4 300 more replies, i hope Patrick writes an article on this as it would be pretty funny.

I can attest to this as well. In my engineering classes, there is only ever 1, maybe 2 girls.

#182 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2504 posts) -

@kaosangel said:

@kaiserreich: That's my favorite.

Okay, so I don't usually post in these threads - but I have to say, that is one spectacular find.

Wait, is that a shop? I can't seem to find the actual article if it indeed exists.

ED: Yup, sigh - I fell for it : (

Kindof tells you how little respect I have for Patricia Hernandez - for whatever reason.

#183 Posted by HeyImPhoenix (169 posts) -

I for one am shocked and deeply offended! ....... Not really.

#184 Posted by DarthOrange (3858 posts) -

Where were the Latinos!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

#185 Posted by JasonR86 (9657 posts) -

@kaosangel said:

@kaiserreich: That's my favorite.

Okay, so I don't usually post in these threads - but I have to say, that is one spectacular find.

Wait, is that a shop? I can't seem to find the actual article if it indeed exists.

ED: Yup, sigh - I fell for it : (

Kindof tells you how little respect I have for Patricia Hernandez - for whatever reason.

Oh. It's fake?

...fuck. Got me. Jerks.

#186 Posted by Mirado (993 posts) -

Sony didn't have a woman on stage, because out of their company and the companies that were chosen to appear on stage, the people that were most qualified to speak were men. If they had women waiting in the wings who could give a better presentation backed by their better credentials, it only makes sense that they would have been up there. Why wouldn't you want your company to look as good as possible? Because they hate women more than they like looking good? I somehow doubt that. As above, Google had no problem letting Marissa Mayer speak in public forums, because she knows what she's talking about and does a damn good job talking about it.

Maybe we should be asking why there aren't more Marissa Mayer's, instead of bitching at Sony and others for not finding people that they don't have? Why aren't we encouraging more women to go into engineering fields? I knew three in my Computer Science major, two of which graduated, and my university has a population of 44,000 with a nearly 50/50 gender split. Something is wrong, there. And if we are encouraging them, then we aren't doing a good enough job, or perhaps that's just the way it goes?

Everyone who attacks Sony is trying to knock over a building by starting with the top floor.

#187 Posted by Jace (1092 posts) -

Yes, boys and girls lovely people, it's that time again. Time to reignite the fires of war and stamp out sexism wherever it may rear its ugly head.

Today's target: Sony.

Wait....what?

Yes, it appears that the lack of women at Sony's event was caught by some people yesterday, and they tweeted their outrage.

One Elizabeth DeLoria has vowed to fight sexism with her wallet. Quote: "Literally going to buy a Wii U out of spite for Playstation next payday. I'm going to fight sexism by buying from competitors now." (I can't link this because her tweets are locked down.)

Another, "'a glimpse in to the future of play' where everyone will finally listen to sony when they say that women are icky"

What say you, Giant Bomb? Should we expect an article from Patrick soon, is this a legitimate issue? Or are we crying wolf too often when it comes to sexism?

Edit: Whatever your stance on Kotaku, it seems this issue is indeed getting more recognition.

Edit 2: Screencaps of Ms. DeLoria's tweets, since they are the only ones not able to be gotten to.

God DAMN this is fucking DUMBBBBBB.

#188 Edited by Lyisa (342 posts) -

Who did Nintendo have out during their Wii U presentations as a representation that women make games for them?

Its a rather sickening concept that, a. bringing out a woman on stage shows unification, and b. that stage presence is representative of women who work in games.

An example: Lucy Bradshaw is an incredibly qualified producer, but most people would probably prefer to hear Will Wright speak (a bit dated of an example, granted).

#189 Posted by Reisz (1483 posts) -

I can absolutely get behind where Liz DeLoria is coming from, I'd love to see more women in game development, especially studio heads, creative directors and lead designers. That having been said these last couple of comments aren't doing anything important for her cause. It would be much more positive to see a significant increase in the amount of "tweets" she puts out that are exalting the fine work female developers are doing in this industry rather than shifting her focus to whatever the most public and controversial target is at the time. Hell yeah there should be more women in top tier positions in the development industry, I want to see that in a big way. However one of the best and most even handed Press Events in memory just isn't an effective target for those who wish to illuminate sexism in the industry.

How about something like "Can't wait to see Stephanie Harvey on stage with her next project, E3? Your move Sony" This nonsense about going out and buying a WiiU is just that, it's reactionary and the worst kind of protest. Plus she's just cutting her nose off to spite her face, if this is the reason she's spending $300 on a console, she isn't planning on playing it much.

There are real, worthy industry related perspectives that need to be called out and broadened, the Playstation Meeting wasn't representative of those.

#190 Posted by Hzaife (160 posts) -

Who cares, why give them any attention?

#191 Posted by Hzaife (160 posts) -

@reisz said:

I can absolutely get behind where Liz DeLoria is coming from, I'd love to see more women in game development, especially studio heads, creative directors and lead designers. That having been said these last couple of comments aren't doing anything important for her cause. It would be much more positive to see a significant increase in the amount of "tweets" she puts out that are exalting the fine work female developers are doing in this industry rather than shifting her focus to whatever the most public and controversial target is at the time. Hell yeah there should be more women in top tier positions in the development industry, I want to see that in a big way. However one of the best and most even handed Press Events in memory just isn't an effective target for those who wish to illuminate sexism in the industry.

How about something like "Can't wait to see Stephanie Harvey on stage with her next project, E3? Your move Sony" This nonsense about going out and buying a WiiU is just that, it's reactionary and the worst kind of protest. Plus she's just cutting her nose off to spite her face, if this is the reason she's spending $300 on a console, she isn't planning on playing it much.

There are real, worthy industry related perspectives that need to be called out and broadened, the Playstation Meeting wasn't representative of those.

Well it looks like your out of gaming as a hobby then

#193 Posted by Funkydupe (3311 posts) -

@jordank85: Search for the Nintendo 3ds on this site and look at the video of that troop of girls walking into the Giant Bomb offices. My god that is cringeworthy. Jeff is like !? Nintendo.

#194 Edited by Meltac (2001 posts) -

Come the fuck on!? This whole sexism this and sexism that is just too stupid.

#195 Posted by Hupfen (44 posts) -

To be honest, I'd say there were a lack of female's because the industry itself is over populated by men. However, there are statistics that say that there's now a half and half of both males and females enjoying games these days.
We will take over the industry one day, I promise. :D

(Also, I noticed some one pointed out that there were no African American's and such, which is also true. It just depends on who's willing to get up and talk in front of a large audience.)

#196 Posted by Tarsier (1057 posts) -

i for one take a stance with sony on this matter. i dont want to see females involved in video games, causes too much drama.

#197 Posted by Brodehouse (9848 posts) -

@mirado said:

Maybe we should be asking why there aren't more Marissa Mayer's, instead of bitching at Sony and others for not finding people that they don't have? Why aren't we encouraging more women to go into engineering fields? I knew three in my Computer Science major, two of which graduated, and my university has a population of 44,000 with a nearly 50/50 gender split. Something is wrong, there. And if we are encouraging them, then we aren't doing a good enough job, or perhaps that's just the way it goes?

I understand you're somewhat reasonable so don't take this as personal, it's more a general argument against an idea I've seen expressed a lot in this thread.

So, this idea is something that I find about as troublesome as anything else out there. Women choose to study different fields rather than STEM, this is a choice they've made. They make up a 60-40 majority of university graduates. There's nothing stopping them from STEM fields except their own decisions. But because STEM fields lead to the more prestigious, higher paying, longer hours jobs, we frame a low number of women in them as 'something wrong'. That there is a 'problem' that needs to be fixed. I find this as infantilizing as any 'keep em in the kitchen' rhetoric; the idea that women are not capable of choosing their own interests and direction in life, that they're somehow more affected by social mores and thus need special help to make it. That's not equality, that's infantilization. You hear about how we need to 'get' women into STEM fields, to 'get' them into Congress, with the exact same tone you might hear a parent talk about needing to 'get' their child into extracurricular activities or the better school district. Have you ever heard anyone trying to 'get' men into fields, even those dominated by women? Why do you suppose that is? It is impossible to form an argument that says that women need special aid to 'properly' choose their fields of study without tacitly endorsing the idea that women are less capable. And I say, nuh uh. If women want to take liberal arts degrees, they can take liberal arts degrees. If they want software development degrees, they can get software development degrees. But I'm not going to look at their choices and then wag my finger for their actions not subscribing to my gender ideology.

And the most serious problem is, is that when gender ideologues like Elizabeth Deloria demand that a female developer be presented on stage independent of her merit, it only reinforces the idea that women can't make it on the same terms as men in this industry. Because no one thinks that Eric Hirshberg was there to hit a diversity quota. They know he's there because (at least on a business level) he deserved to be, along with everyone else. When Elizabeth Deloria says that independent of her merit, Sony needs to show X amount of women in charge in order to make me happy, it's not going to create equality but inequality.

To be honest, as a rationalist, this entire gender thing is starting to make me sad.

#198 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

@reisz said:

I can absolutely get behind where Liz DeLoria is coming from, I'd love to see more women in game development, especially studio heads, creative directors and lead designers.

Why? Saying stuff like that is part of the problem. What you want is quality people working in good places, the gender doesn't matter either way.

Fact is development scenes are largely male populated, as are university and college courses. That's why things are the way they are, it's not because women are shunned, it's because they are a minority in the tech sector just like males are in the world of cosmetics. Hearing this shit is just extremely tiring and the women complaining about a lack of women can get bent for wanting a company to include women because hey, women. Quality of work should invite opportunities like the Sony conference, not having a vagina.

#199 Edited by Doppelgamer (313 posts) -

She's concerned about women being well-represented, yet has a Blackcat cosplay avatar. Hmm...