#201 Posted by VaddixBell (270 posts) -

There is no problem. It's just an industry thing which; in all likeliness; will change over time.

People talking about engineering, I do chemical engineering and my class is 60% girls... I never seen the whole "Engineering is dominated by men" thing in my class until I seen the mechanical engineering class in the same year; now that was 90% male.

#202 Posted by Mirado (1015 posts) -

@mirado said:

Maybe we should be asking why there aren't more Marissa Mayer's, instead of bitching at Sony and others for not finding people that they don't have? Why aren't we encouraging more women to go into engineering fields? I knew three in my Computer Science major, two of which graduated, and my university has a population of 44,000 with a nearly 50/50 gender split. Something is wrong, there. And if we are encouraging them, then we aren't doing a good enough job, or perhaps that's just the way it goes?

I understand you're somewhat reasonable so don't take this as personal, it's more a general argument against an idea I've seen expressed a lot in this thread.

So, this idea is something that I find about as troublesome as anything else out there. Women choose to study different fields rather than STEM, this is a choice they've made. They make up a 60-40 majority of university graduates. There's nothing stopping them from STEM fields except their own decisions. But because STEM fields lead to the more prestigious, higher paying, longer hours jobs, we frame a low number of women in them as 'something wrong'. That there is a 'problem' that needs to be fixed. I find this as infantilizing as any 'keep em in the kitchen' rhetoric; the idea that women are not capable of choosing their own interests and direction in life, that they're somehow more affected by social mores and thus need special help to make it. That's not equality, that's infantilization. You hear about how we need to 'get' women into STEM fields, to 'get' them into Congress, with the exact same tone you might hear a parent talk about needing to 'get' their child into extracurricular activities or the better school district. Have you ever heard anyone trying to 'get' men into fields, even those dominated by women? Why do you suppose that is? It is impossible to form an argument that says that women need special aid to 'properly' choose their fields of study without tacitly endorsing the idea that women are less capable. And I say, nuh uh. If women want to take liberal arts degrees, they can take liberal arts degrees. If they want software development degrees, they can get software development degrees. But I'm not going to look at their choices and then wag my finger for their actions not subscribing to my gender ideology.

And the most serious problem is, is that when gender ideologues like Elizabeth Deloria demand that a female developer be presented on stage independent of her merit, it only reinforces the idea that women can't make it on the same terms as men in this industry. Because no one thinks that Eric Hirshberg was there to hit a diversity quota. They know he's there because (at least on a business level) he deserved to be, along with everyone else. When Elizabeth Deloria says that independent of her merit, Sony needs to show X amount of women in charge in order to make me happy, it's not going to create equality but inequality.

To be honest, as a rationalist, this entire gender thing is starting to make me sad.

No, it's fine. As a "somewhat reasonable" person, I don't mind being used as the example to get a point across, and I actually agree with some of what you are saying. That was the meaning of my line "perhaps just the way it goes" and it probably my fault for not taking to the time to expound on it correctly; I mean to say that if we have done all the encouragement one can hope for to erase a 50s mentality of certain majors, than perhaps women just aren't interested it STEM fields and that's that. I somehow don't think that's the case, however, and if it is I have to wonder why. If the jobs are more prestigious, better paying, and longer hours, why isn't that more enticing to a larger number? Why wouldn't more women strive to reach and complete those degrees? I understand that some just aren't interested, but what inherent quality makes STEM fields male dominated, and nursing fields women dominated? What's the psychology that holds all that together? Can we change it? Should we change it? Is there anything to change? Ah, questions...

The above is a time sink, however, and the real point of this topic is your paragraph about Deloria, which I think any rational person has to agree with. I'm not sure I go along with your first paragraph, but your 2nd is more or less spot on.

#203 Posted by DeathbyYeti (755 posts) -

Patrick please

We must have another article with you quoting yourself to defend the women

How could Sony do this to me

#204 Posted by MikkaQ (10321 posts) -

As a Frenchman I'm offended that we were represented by a tubby balding guy, and a willowy looking skeletor-man instead of the sculpted sexual gods that we all obviously are.

#205 Posted by mrfluke (5279 posts) -

@sooty said:

@reisz said:

I can absolutely get behind where Liz DeLoria is coming from, I'd love to see more women in game development, especially studio heads, creative directors and lead designers.

Why? Saying stuff like that is part of the problem. What you want is quality people working in good places, the gender doesn't matter either way.

Fact is development scenes are largely male populated, as are university and college courses. That's why things are the way they are, it's not because women are shunned, it's because they are a minority in the tech sector just like males are in the world of cosmetics. Hearing this shit is just extremely tiring and the women complaining about a lack of women can get bent for wanting a company to include women because hey, women. Quality of work should invite opportunities like the Sony conference, not having a vagina.

word

#206 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (3846 posts) -

I spent some time on a post and it didn't send. So if this doesn't work, I'm done.

Elizabeth Deloria's big issue is that the career choices of women do not reflect her gender ideology.

There is an under representation of women in software development. We're told this is 'a problem'.

There is an under representation of women in the sanitation industry. Is this a problem?

There is an under representation of women in construction. Is this a problem?

There is an under representation of men in nursing. Is this a problem?

There is an under representation of men in college graduation numbers. Problem?

See, the difference between equality and gender ideology is that equality believes everyone is free to make their own decisions independent of their gender. Gender ideology believes that if their preferred gender isn't receiving the majority of what they consider prestigious positions, independent of their merit, then there is 'a problem'. Even though women make up the majority of college graduates, if they're not choosing STEM fields, there is 'a problem'. Elizabeth Deloria is unhappy with the choices women have made.

Don't believe in gender ideology, kids. Believe in equality.

To expand upon this, I thought I'd add my post from another thread that was dealing with this issue.

Yeah, this is the case. Women simply aren't drawn to STEM fields in the numbers that men are, and for some reason this outrages some people. If it didn't, the poster in this video would never have existed:

The thing is, there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with not having many women in STEM fields, if most women themselves don't want to be in those fields. There was a great comment from a women on NeoGAF concerning this issue, which I'll quote here:

Quick anecdote for everyone. I had to go to a nursing legislation conference a couple weeks ago. There was not a single male speaker the entire conference. Furthermore, the majority of attendees were women. There were door prizes given out if you signed up and they were all lotion baskets, or pink scrubs, and were all gifts for women. The men were told over loud speaker that all male bathrooms on the first floor were now female bathrooms for the duration of the conference to accommodate everyone. The males attending were told to go to the basement to use the bathroom.

I can't imagine anyone telling women at a majority male event to go use the bathroom in the basement.

If you have major issues with the lack of women in STEM fields (including being outraged by the lack of women at the Sony conference), and have absolutely no problem with the lack of male nurses or teachers, there's a word for that. That word isn't "feminist," it's "hypocrite."

#207 Posted by Zicdab (388 posts) -

I love the bitching and complaining about the lack of women at a video game conference but not:

-female genital mutilation

-women being banned from going to school

-women having to cover themselves in public

-women being banned from driving

-women being banned from work or needing their husband's permission to do so

-women being forced into sexual slavery

Those are just a few things, and yes, I realize this is a video game website and that I am going off topic, but if you are going to get this upset about such a minor thing and seek some sort of "justice", maybe you should start looking at other places and situations that need your help. Those who claim to be "feminists" should probably start helping females that actually need it. God this is such a bad idea for me to post this.

#208 Posted by awesomeusername (4225 posts) -

Has she ever cosplayed as a DBZ character? Because that tweets stupidity level is OVER 9000!!!

I HAD to.

#209 Edited by SpaceInsomniac (3846 posts) -

@zicdab said:

I love the bitching and complaining about the lack of women at a video game conference but not:

-female genital mutilation

-women being banned from going to school

-women having to cover themselves in public

-women being banned from driving

-women being banned from work or needing their husband's permission to do so

-women being forced into sexual slavery

Those are just a few things, and yes, I realize this is a video game website and that I am going off topic, but if you are going to get this upset about such a minor thing and seek some sort of "justice", maybe you should start looking at other places and situations that need your help. Those who claim to be "feminists" should probably start helping females that actually need it. God this is such a bad idea for me to post this.

To all that, I would suggest that it's far more common for people to be concerned with what actually concerns them. You could call it selfish, but it's really just human nature. How much money have you spent on gaming in the last year? And how many donations have you made to 3rd world nation causes? It's basically the same thing, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I do get your point that when it comes to sexism, there are much bigger fish to fry than this.

The thing that I personally don't like about the feminist movement is that it strikes me as wanting to eliminate every possible situation where men have an advantage over women, while doing nothing about situations where women have a large advantage over men. Those they just cast those aside under the umbrella of "benevolent sexism," and claim that they're not happy about that either, all while doing absolutely nothing to bring about any change that could disadvantage women in any possible way. This seems to be the case even in the face of blatant sexism that favors women, child custody being one good example.

That's not equality, and that's why I no longer consider myself to be a feminist.

#210 Posted by Brodehouse (10104 posts) -

@mirado said:

No, it's fine. As a "somewhat reasonable" person, I don't mind being used as the example to get a point across, and I actually agree with some of what you are saying. That was the meaning of my line "perhaps just the way it goes" and it probably my fault for not taking to the time to expound on it correctly; I mean to say that if we have done all the encouragement one can hope for to erase a 50s mentality of certain majors, than perhaps women just aren't interested it STEM fields and that's that. I somehow don't think that's the case, however, and if it is I have to wonder why. If the jobs are more prestigious, better paying, and longer hours, why isn't that more enticing to a larger number? Why wouldn't more women strive to reach and complete those degrees? I understand that some just aren't interested, but what inherent quality makes STEM fields male dominated, and nursing fields women dominated? What's the psychology that holds all that together? Can we change it? Should we change it? Is there anything to change? Ah, questions...

The above is a time sink, however, and the real point of this topic is your paragraph about Deloria, which I think any rational person has to agree with. I'm not sure I go along with your first paragraph, but your 2nd is more or less spot on.

Sorry about the qualifier 'somewhat'. In hindsight it's rather backhanded, and I apologize. I just wanted to make sure you didn't take my argument as a personal condemnation.

To talk about why those STEM field jobs are not as appealing to women is in the line regarding the higher hours (on average). According to most every labor study (and I can pull the handy Department of Labor one), women pay more attention to hours, travel, safety and tertiary benefits like health compared to their male counterparts, who place salary much higher on their list of concerns. Men work roughly 6 hours a week longer on average, and make up 93% of workplace deaths. Now, while STEM fields are obviously much safer than the manual labor jobs that result in accidental death, they almost all come with comparatively extreme hour demands (and in our industry, if you want a job, you're moving to either Montreal, California or the Pacific Northwest). While no one likes crunch, it stands to reason that statistically, men will tolerate it for the salary more than women might. If a woman has those same drives, if she wants the obligations that come with the benefits, and is competent, these fields are no more closed than 'traditionally' female jobs. Especially in mathematics, mathematics is called the universal language because it simply works, there is no room for gender bias in a field where either your numbers check out or they don't.

#211 Posted by JoshyLee (178 posts) -

Patrick is already searching Twitter to copy/paste on the site.

#212 Edited by AiurFlux (902 posts) -

Urgh. She should just fuck off already. I'm sick of this shit to the point where I'm not even going to try anymore. People (idiots that want to complain for the sake of complaining) are offended by the slightest fucking thing. Just walk into the middle of the street.

#213 Posted by JasonR86 (9748 posts) -

@aiurflux said:

Urgh. She should just fuck off already. I'm sick of this shit to the point where I'm not even going to try anymore. People (idiots that want to complain for the sake of complaining) are offended by the slightest fucking thing. Just walk into the middle of the street.

I don't agree with her either but that's a bit much dude. She's free to her opinion and is free to state it on her personal twitter. Just as you and I are free to not listen. Saying she should 'fuck off' and 'walk in the middle of the street' is nuts though.

#214 Edited by Reisz (1518 posts) -

@mrfluke said:

@sooty said:

@reisz said:

I can absolutely get behind where Liz DeLoria is coming from, I'd love to see more women in game development, especially studio heads, creative directors and lead designers. That having been said these last couple of comments aren't doing anything important for her cause.

Why? Saying stuff like that is part of the problem. What you want is quality people working in good places, the gender doesn't matter either way.

Fact is development scenes are largely male populated, as are university and college courses. That's why things are the way they are, it's not because women are shunned, it's because they are a minority in the tech sector just like males are in the world of cosmetics. Hearing this shit is just extremely tiring and the women complaining about a lack of women can get bent for wanting a company to include women because hey, women. Quality of work should invite opportunities like the Sony conference, not having a vagina.

word

We're all on the same page here. I want to see more women in higher level positions because it broadens the scope of good game experiences, the industry perspective I want to see change is that more women become interested (and with hard work, skilled) in game design and development. I don't know about you guys but I'm not done playing games by a long shot, so I want to see as many new and varied points of view in game development as possible.

What I don't want to see is the few women we do have in game development expressing how shitty it is, if the source of that sentiment doesn't change I don't get to play a bunch of games that might otherwise exist. I also don't want to see anyone in game development that doesn't both want and deserve to be there. Which is why I think DeLoria calling out the PlayStation Meeting of all things was a dick move. The way I see it that conference had nothing to do with what she wants to see change.

#215 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -

The industry hates womenz.

#216 Posted by JasonR86 (9748 posts) -

The industry hates womenz.

'Girl'? What about 'woman'? GOD!

#217 Posted by AiurFlux (902 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

@aiurflux said:

Urgh. She should just fuck off already. I'm sick of this shit to the point where I'm not even going to try anymore. People (idiots that want to complain for the sake of complaining) are offended by the slightest fucking thing. Just walk into the middle of the street.

I don't agree with her either but that's a bit much dude. She's free to her opinion and is free to state it on her personal twitter. Just as you and I are free to not listen. Saying she should 'fuck off' and 'walk in the middle of the street' is nuts though.

Okay, how about buy a bullet and rent a gun? Good enough?

You're right, she's free to state her opinion, just as I'm free to state that I wish her and her ilk would all get hit by a conga line of buses. Every last single fucking one of them. I've HAD IT with this "ism" shit. The world would be better off without these PC assholes walking around policing the world for the stupidest fucking things. And it's not a woman/man, black/white, gay/straight issue either. It's an issue of complete and utter stupidity. Of people incessantly bitching and forcing people that didn't do a single fucking thing wrong to apologize because THEY were upset and in a pissy mood.

Her opening her dumb trap is making a bigger divide over what was originally there. It's the same shit with racism where Jesse Jackson will get up on his pedestal and continue to fuel the racial divide. Again, a conga line of buses. The world would be a better place.

#218 Posted by JasonR86 (9748 posts) -

@aiurflux said:

@jasonr86 said:

@aiurflux said:

Urgh. She should just fuck off already. I'm sick of this shit to the point where I'm not even going to try anymore. People (idiots that want to complain for the sake of complaining) are offended by the slightest fucking thing. Just walk into the middle of the street.

I don't agree with her either but that's a bit much dude. She's free to her opinion and is free to state it on her personal twitter. Just as you and I are free to not listen. Saying she should 'fuck off' and 'walk in the middle of the street' is nuts though.

Okay, how about buy a bullet and rent a gun? Good enough?

You're right, she's free to state her opinion, just as I'm free to state that I wish her and her ilk would all get hit by a conga line of buses. Every last single fucking one of them. I've HAD IT with this "ism" shit. The world would be better off without these PC assholes walking around policing the world for the stupidest fucking things. And it's not a woman/man, black/white, gay/straight issue either. It's an issue of complete and utter stupidity. Of people incessantly bitching and forcing people that didn't do a single fucking thing wrong to apologize because THEY were upset and in a pissy mood.

Her opening her dumb trap is making a bigger divide over what was originally there. It's the same shit with racism where Jesse Jackson will get up on his pedestal and continue to fuel the racial divide. Again, a conga line of buses. The world would be a better place.

#219 Posted by coakroach (2492 posts) -

The Verge had a great article on this.

And by great I mean it made me want to throw my laptop out the fucking window.

#221 Edited by MHumphreys89 (721 posts) -

@likeassur said:

Edit 2: Screencaps of Ms. DeLoria's tweets, since they are the only ones not able to be gotten to.

Sounds like a level-headed and mature thing to say. I'm sure their competitors care about one person. Sony weren't even being actively-sexist, are people getting mad because it just so happened there were no women on stage? That's dumb.

#223 Posted by LiquidPrince (16032 posts) -

@brodehouse said:

I spent some time on a post and it didn't send. So if this doesn't work, I'm done.

Elizabeth Deloria's big issue is that the career choices of women do not reflect her gender ideology.

There is an under representation of women in software development. We're told this is 'a problem'.

There is an under representation of women in the sanitation industry. Is this a problem?

There is an under representation of women in construction. Is this a problem?

There is an under representation of men in nursing. Is this a problem?

There is an under representation of men in college graduation numbers. Problem?

See, the difference between equality and gender ideology is that equality believes everyone is free to make their own decisions independent of their gender. Gender ideology believes that if their preferred gender isn't receiving the majority of what they consider prestigious positions, independent of their merit, then there is 'a problem'. Even though women make up the majority of college graduates, if they're not choosing STEM fields, there is 'a problem'. Elizabeth Deloria is unhappy with the choices women have made.

Don't believe in gender ideology, kids. Believe in equality.

That’s a little reductive — there are outside influences behind this that can be addressed. They won’t be addressed in the way many in the gamer feminist movement would like — it can’t be done by mandate or Twitter shaming, and it will take decades — but they do exist. The natural state of women in games development probably isn’t 50-50, but I doubt it’s as lopsided as it is now.

I agree that it’s a little hypocritical for the focus to be on clean, Twitter-class jobs, but many of these writers are games-focussed, so it’s kind of unfair to blame them for writing about games.

No one is blaming them for writing about games. They're being blamed for turning little unimportant coincidences into big stupid convoluted debates about sexism. Anyone who gets offended at such a ridiculous thing as "why weren't there more women at this conference" and says that they are going to buy from the competition out of "spite" seems a little unintelligent to me. It's not like women were expressly banned from presenting on stage. If any women in lead roles existed at any of the companies shown at the conference wanted to present, I doubt Sony would say no...

#224 Posted by Alekss (327 posts) -
#225 Posted by TheHT (11557 posts) -
#226 Edited by Hunter5024 (5849 posts) -

There weren't any women there, because there are less women who work in the gaming industry than men. There are less women in the gaming industry than men, because fewer women actually want to work in this field. Personally I don't see how their desires as individuals can be considered a problem.

Even if they are secretly a bunch of misogynists, Sony would have been more than happy to have a woman on stage I'm sure, companies want to look diverse and welcoming, especially if it might widen their potential audience. So obviously they just didn't have that opportunity, maybe that's because none of the women that work for them wanted to do it, maybe none of them were qualified enough, or maybe there just weren't any. So how should this problem be solved? Force women to work for our industry? Make the few who do go out in the spotlight, whether they wish to or not, simply to show how diverse we are? Let less qualified individuals have opportunities simply because of their gender? Creating dumb problems like this only leads to dumb solutions. I'm not saying there is no sexism in this industry, but this isn't an example of it. Some of us need to learn to contain ourselves, because when we cry wolf like this, it only makes it less meaningful when we try to highlight real injustices.

Also there was a girl in the media molecule presentation, on the left screen. So nyeh.

#227 Posted by rentacop (107 posts) -

There is no problem. It's just an industry thing which; in all likeliness; will change over time.

People talking about engineering, I do chemical engineering and my class is 60% girls... I never seen the whole "Engineering is dominated by men" thing in my class until I seen the mechanical engineering class in the same year; now that was 90% male.

At my school Civil Engineering was the class most likely to have female students year after year, by a wide margin. Mechanical (mine) wasn't too bad, being about 90% that you've seen. Now electrical... that was 99% bros. My graduating class had none. The year ahead of us had one. Women must really hate it.

#228 Posted by GrantHeaslip (1655 posts) -

@liquidprince said:

No one is blaming them for writing about games. They're being blamed for turning little unimportant coincidences into big stupid convoluted debates about sexism. Anyone who gets offended at such a ridiculous thing as "why weren't there more women at this conference" and says that they are going to buy from the competition out of "spite" seems a little unintelligent to me. It's not like women were expressly banned from presenting on stage. If any women in lead roles existed at any of the companies shown at the conference wanted to present, I doubt Sony would say no...

Agreed, I was just pointing out the issues in @Brodehouse’s post. Elizabeth DeLoria comes off as, charitably, not very smart. I sympathize with the broad issues she’s advocating about, but she pretty consistently seems to pick the wrong battles and makes childish, logically-questonable arguments. There’s little more frustrating to me than someone doing a shitty job of advocating for stuff I care about.

Unfortunately, the feminist gamer movement seems to be a “yes, and” community, not a “yes, but” community. It’s natural when you feel like your back is against the wall, but it makes it easy for people to ignore facts, ignore logic, and generally do a bad job of making their case. They’ve conceived a world in which everyone who’s not on their side can be labelled “sexist” or “misogynist” and dismissed out of hand, meaning they’re not forced to deal with criticism. Good ideas are not formed in an atmosphere in which everyone agrees about everything. When I criticize @Brodehouse’s post, I’m trying to make sure arguments I generally respect are presented better.

#229 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (3846 posts) -

@liquidprince said:

No one is blaming them for writing about games. They're being blamed for turning little unimportant coincidences into big stupid convoluted debates about sexism. Anyone who gets offended at such a ridiculous thing as "why weren't there more women at this conference" and says that they are going to buy from the competition out of "spite" seems a little unintelligent to me. It's not like women were expressly banned from presenting on stage. If any women in lead roles existed at any of the companies shown at the conference wanted to present, I doubt Sony would say no...

Agreed, I was just pointing out the issues in @Brodehouse’s post. Elizabeth DeLoria comes off as, charitably, not very smart. I sympathize with the broad issues she’s advocating about, but she pretty consistently seems to pick the wrong battles and makes childish, logically-questonable arguments. There’s little more frustrating to me than someone doing a shitty job of advocating for stuff I care about.

Unfortunately, the feminist gamer movement seems to be a “yes, and” community, not a “yes, but” community. It’s natural when you feel like your back is against the wall, but it makes it easy for people to ignore facts, ignore logic, and generally do a bad job of making their case. They’ve conceived a world in which everyone who’s not on their side can be labelled “sexist” or “misogynist” and dismissed out of hand, meaning they’re not forced to deal with criticism. Good ideas are not formed in an atmosphere in which everyone agrees about everything. When I criticize @Brodehouse’s post, I’m trying to make sure arguments I generally respect are presented better.

But it still is true that NO ONE seems to care about the number of men in nursing, or teaching, or psychology, or any other field that happens to primarily attract females. And it strikes me as a complete cop-out to say "but many of these writers are games-focused, so it’s kind of unfair to blame them for writing about games." Poor journalism is poor journalism, and I absolutely will blame anyone saying that there's a sexist problem with the games industry because women don't want to work in fields related to technology in the same ratio as men.

There are examples of actual sexism in the game's industry, and far too many for my taste. Journalists need to write about those, and stop trying to force women into every field that they couldn't care less about, while collectively not giving a flying fuck about any field of study that happens to include far more women than men.

#230 Posted by SkankinPacman (87 posts) -

Whenever people do shit like this it undermines actual sexism going on. This is the reason that so many people just ignore "sexism in gaming" is when women call out stupid shit like this. That article on Kotaku by Patricia Hernandez was ridiculous the whole thing was pretty much "WAAAAAAAAAH I WANT A MATRIARCHY WAAAAAAAH WHITE MALE ESTABLISHMENT" and it just came off as a soap box rant that no one is going to pay attention to and dismiss.

#231 Posted by Brodehouse (10104 posts) -

@grantheaslip said:

@liquidprince said:

No one is blaming them for writing about games. They're being blamed for turning little unimportant coincidences into big stupid convoluted debates about sexism. Anyone who gets offended at such a ridiculous thing as "why weren't there more women at this conference" and says that they are going to buy from the competition out of "spite" seems a little unintelligent to me. It's not like women were expressly banned from presenting on stage. If any women in lead roles existed at any of the companies shown at the conference wanted to present, I doubt Sony would say no...

Agreed, I was just pointing out the issues in @Brodehouse’s post. Elizabeth DeLoria comes off as, charitably, not very smart. I sympathize with the broad issues she’s advocating about, but she pretty consistently seems to pick the wrong battles and makes childish, logically-questonable arguments. There’s little more frustrating to me than someone doing a shitty job of advocating for stuff I care about.

Unfortunately, the feminist gamer movement seems to be a “yes, and” community, not a “yes, but” community. It’s natural when you feel like your back is against the wall, but it makes it easy for people to ignore facts, ignore logic, and generally do a bad job of making their case. They’ve conceived a world in which everyone who’s not on their side can be labelled “sexist” or “misogynist” and dismissed out of hand, meaning they’re not forced to deal with criticism. Good ideas are not formed in an atmosphere in which everyone agrees about everything. When I criticize @Brodehouse’s post, I’m trying to make sure arguments I generally respect are presented better.

But it still is true that NO ONE seems to care about the number of men in nursing, or teaching, or psychology, or any other field that happens to primarily attract females. And it strikes me as a complete cop-out to say "but many of these writers are games-focused, so it’s kind of unfair to blame them for writing about games." Poor journalism is poor journalism, and I absolutely will blame anyone saying that there's a sexist problem with the games industry because women don't want to work in fields related to technology in the same ratio as men.

There are examples of actual sexism in the game's industry, and far too many for my taste. Journalists need to write about those, and stop trying to force women into every field that they couldn't care less about, while collectively not giving a flying fuck about any field of study that happens to include far more women than men.

Indeed. I'd like it noted that I am very against any instances of harassment or actual discrimination, not merely situations that can be contrived to be sexist if stripped from context. Workplace harassment is why we have HR departments and the ability to sue, actual cases of discrimination have a number of legal solutions. In fiction, you see more unfortunate implications than you do out-and-out sexism, but bad writing is bad writing (and sometimes those implications are unfortunate but a requirement of the story, Link saves Zelda because that's what that story is). But fiction is far less important than real life, and we have the mechanisms for solving actual sexual discrimination already in place. My first suggestion to anyone who is suffering actual discrimination or harassment is to use those mechanisms.

My problem here is not that Liz Deloria or Patricia Hernandez have decided to write about games, it's that the arguments they present are either specious or dogmatic. The argument that Sony is sexist because those who rose in the ranks (or were best suited to speak at their conference) happened to be men, regardless of the merit or ability of those individuals, is completely specious and itself sexist. The argument that more women in X field is an unconditional ethical good is as dogmatic as the idea that more men in Y field is an unconditional ethical good. And that's really where my issue comes in. My issue comes in on the argument that "there are less women than men in this field, therefore there is a problem" being a complete non-starter. Because if you were told that fields dominated by women had to create discriminatory hiring policies to meet a quota of males, you would immediately recognize it to be sexist. Egalitarianism is the freedom of equal opportunities, not the enforcement of equal outcomes.

#232 Edited by Jams (2962 posts) -

Indeed. I'd like it noted that I am very against any instances of harassment or actual discrimination, not merely situations that can be contrived to be sexist if stripped from context. Workplace harassment is why we have HR departments and the ability to sue, actual cases of discrimination have a number of legal solutions. In fiction, you see more unfortunate implications than you do out-and-out sexism, but bad writing is bad writing (and sometimes those implications are unfortunate but a requirement of the story, Link saves Zelda because that's what that story is). But fiction is far less important than real life, and we have the mechanisms for solving actual sexual discrimination already in place. My first suggestion to anyone who is suffering actual discrimination or harassment is to use those mechanisms.

My problem here is not that Liz Deloria or Patricia Hernandez have decided to write about games, it's that the arguments they present are either specious or dogmatic. The argument that Sony is sexist because those who rose in the ranks (or were best suited to speak at their conference) happened to be men, regardless of the merit or ability of those individuals, is completely specious and itself sexist. The argument that more women in X field is an unconditional ethical good is as dogmatic as the idea that more men in Y field is an unconditional ethical good. And that's really where my issue comes in. My issue comes in on the argument that "there are less women than men in this field, therefore there is a problem" being a complete non-starter. Because if you were told that fields dominated by women had to create discriminatory hiring policies to meet a quota of males, you would immediately recognize it to be sexist. Egalitarianism is the freedom of equal opportunities, not the enforcement of equal outcomes.

Very well said Bro House.

#233 Posted by T1000 (45 posts) -

I guess not as many Women like Sony like Men do?